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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-09-30

---Logopened Mon Sep 30 00:00:36 2019
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04:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
04:22<andythenorth>trying not to write that without being a dick
04:22<andythenorth>-not even
04:22*andythenorth should go to work
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04:45<andythenorth>oof I had a good idea, but it FAIL
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05:55<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
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08:29<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
08:37<_dp_>btw, why is sound using game state random?
08:43<_dp_>It's kinda fair that everyone will be equally annoyed by those sounds ofc but then you can just disable them altogether :p
08:43<nielsm>yes that is kinda weird
08:45<LordAro>if in doubt, probably hysterical raisins
08:48<nielsm>now checking the end year thing for myself
08:48<nielsm>is it really 2049-2050 year change in original ttd
08:49<nielsm>or 2050-2051 as implemented in ottd
08:49<nielsm>having to run ttd in dosbox and then run dosbox in fastforward mode
08:50<nielsm>yeah 2049-2050 year change is the correct
08:50<nielsm>for how long has ottd been wrong and had a 101 year game?
08:51<nielsm>it should also, at least in singleplayer, switch music to the title music
08:55<@peter1138>The sounds are synchronised, see.
08:56<LordAro>nielsm: surprising, given all those sprites for the endscreen would've been hardcoded
08:58<nielsm>oh yeah... well
08:59<nielsm>the sprite says december 31, 2050
08:59<nielsm>the game ends at december 31, 2049
08:59<nielsm>in ttd
08:59<LordAro>obiwan in TTD itself?
09:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed pull request #7751: Fix 196d5868: Missing override keyword.
09:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7630: Fix warnings from GCC9
09:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed pull request #7748: Fix: compilation error with MinGW
09:00<nielsm>otoh this is tested with ttdpatch for the Year cheat
09:00<LordAro>closing 3 PRs at once is always nice
09:00<nielsm>so should maybe see if I can generate a save in dec 2049 and load it without patch
09:01<@peter1138>Grr, USB port on my Garmin is fucked :(
09:01<@peter1138>The GND pin is bent back.
09:01<LordAro>oh no
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09:06<LordAro>nielsm: interestingly, just found this commit
09:10<andythenorth>2008 :)
09:10<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year
09:10*andythenorth wondering if town ID can be used as a hack to force industry co-location
09:10<andythenorth>in absence of a regions function
09:11<LordAro> currently wondering if this introduced an off-by-one
09:11<andythenorth>I can check distance to other industry types, when building the industry, but it's at risk of deadlocks, and gets hard to maintain
09:12*andythenorth draws ideal world, where industries return some UID token, and openttd only builds industries with that UID in certain regions of the map
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: i don't see where the obiwan would come from there, but why was it checking against "ending_year - MAX_YEAR" before, shouldn't that have been BASE_YEAR?
09:17<LordAro>honestly i've no idea
09:18<LordAro> the very first implementation had a comment that was just wrong
09:19<LordAro>it's possible it's been wrong the entire time
09:19<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, i've never reached the year 2050
09:25<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
09:37*andythenorth wonders
09:37<andythenorth>can towns be iterated arbitrarily from a newgrf :P
09:37<andythenorth>towns have permanent storage
09:38<andythenorth>so at game start, if I could walk say 25% of towns and set a storage bit, for example 'chemicals industry town'
09:38<andythenorth>then industry location check could probably read that storage
09:38<andythenorth>it could even be done when the first n industries of that type are build
09:39<andythenorth>it would limit to placement within the town catchment though, rather than within n tiles
09:39<andythenorth>might be very crowded :P
09:40<@peter1138>Game script?
09:40<@peter1138>Does OpenTTD have RTX support yet?
09:41<andythenorth>gamescript is blind to newgrf
09:41<andythenorth>except by reading the produced / accepted cargos
09:41<andythenorth>also ew gamescript :)
09:53<nielsm>andythenorth or you could do some kind of check on map coordinates, maybe that works best for mining industries
09:54<nielsm>(areas of the map rich in various natural resources)
09:54<andythenorth>yes, could divide the map up into blocks
09:54<andythenorth>that's already used for clustering similar industries somewhat, but not using x,y coords
09:55<andythenorth>so, for example, chemicals industries might always locate in top corner of map
09:55<andythenorth>in a 128*128 block
09:56<andythenorth>interesting idea
09:57<nielsm>you can maybe also emulate less rectangular areas by making diamond shaped areas instead, or the sum of a square and a diamon for a kind of 8 pointed star
09:57<andythenorth>need some clever algorithm for checking x,y?
09:57<nielsm>(more circular)
09:57<andythenorth>like a parametric function or something?
09:58<andythenorth>I am not very good with that maths
09:58<andythenorth>but in schoold I worked out how to use parametrics to draw a smiley face on a graphical calculator
09:58<andythenorth>unfortunately that was not an exam question :P
09:59<nielsm>decide on a center point of the industrial zone x0,y0
09:59<andythenorth>I think there probably is a case for regions in OpenTTD
09:59<andythenorth>but we'll never discover it without trying some hacks first
09:59<nielsm>take the candidate position of the industry x,y
09:59<nielsm>subtract from the center and take the absolute value of each coordinate
09:59<nielsm>dx,dy = abs(x0-x),abs(y0-y)
09:59<nielsm>then check the range of dx and dy
10:00<andythenorth>"decide on a center point of the industrial zone x0,y0" requires fixed rules that can run in a callback
10:00<andythenorth>and fallbacks, in case, e.g. it's all sea
10:00<nielsm>yeah it wouldn't work well in the general case
10:00<andythenorth>running this cb every time an industry is built would not be ideal
10:01<nielsm>otoh, if all the coal on the map is located under the sea... yeah that's a problem you can solve by filling in the sea :D
10:01<nielsm>yep it's better suited for a GS situation, where the GS picks the location of the industry
10:01<nielsm>instead of the game trying a bunch of random locations until one works
10:02<andythenorth>the GS route remains puzzling
10:03<andythenorth>GS isn't event driven afaik
10:03<nielsm>it would be the other way around
10:03<andythenorth>makes player funding hard
10:03<andythenorth>and game start would be hard / slow
10:03<nielsm>the GS just decides it wants to build an industry, then uses its knowledge of the map and any rules decided by itself to pick out a position
10:03*andythenorth ignoring the other problems with GS
10:04<andythenorth>GS is a problem looking for a solution in most newgrf cases
10:04<andythenorth>or something
10:04*andythenorth more coffee
10:04<nielsm>I'm out, going to visit copenhagen and check the newly opened metro line
10:04<andythenorth>hurrah :)
10:04<andythenorth>taking the parrot?
10:05<nielsm>they are too difficult to take on trips :P
10:05<andythenorth>my uncle has one, it has a lead
10:05<andythenorth>but sometimes it flies away
10:05*andythenorth back to GDPR and EU data transfers after Oct 31st :P
10:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year
10:06<@planetmaker>oh, that sounds like an aweful lot of fun @ andythenorth :|
10:06<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year
10:11<@peter1138>Was it lunch time?
10:13<andythenorth>it was but I am not happy with what it wsa
10:13<andythenorth>marmite on toast
10:13<andythenorth>not enough salad
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10:17<@planetmaker>nielsm, in order to not spam the github issue: what is the idea of adding both, ending_year and game_length? It seems homologuous in terms of what it achieves, thus duplicating a setting to two variables
10:18<@planetmaker>(it's ok to have the choice to set either ingame for start config, but it only needs one internal variable)
10:29<_dp_>kinda agree, it's hard to imagine usecases for those two settings
10:29<_dp_>removing scoreboard completely is nice, that I can use
10:30<_dp_>but no ideas for any other case
10:32<_dp_>citymania has game length setting but it does a lot of extra stuff on game end, not sure how that's relevant to vanilla
10:33<@peter1138>andythenorth, oh, mine was salad and... er... cake :/
10:33<andythenorth>cake salaf
10:33<andythenorth>I quit
10:34<@peter1138>Fruit cake, leftovers from the MacMillan cake day thing.
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11:12<Samu>Niels van Gogh is a dj
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12:21<Wormnest>Samu: The main difference with you in what I usually do for testing my ai´s is that I set vehicle limits a lot lower than the maximum 5000
12:22<Wormnest>Besides that in the tested game it took a long time before WormAI was first, it was 3/4 for a long time
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12:32*andythenorth wants cake
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13:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: any interest in a devzone refresh? :)
13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth, in what way are you talking?
13:47<andythenorth>frosch has a repo with some dockerisation of devzone
13:49<@planetmaker>interesting. That does look nice
13:49<andythenorth>it would be nice to know the future of devzone
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13:51<andythenorth>most of my grfs will no longer build
13:52<andythenorth>I started moving them to Github + Azure + Amazon, but it's problematic for eints I believe
13:52<@planetmaker>yeah, probably
13:53<andythenorth>I don't like to bother anyone too often about devzone, and not sure who to bother either :)
13:53<@planetmaker>well, I started moving repos to github. But the build part... is quite unique. Anyhow, I don't plan to retire the machine ...
13:53<@planetmaker>the upgrade part is the ... "interesting" part. I've no spare to test on :)
13:54<andythenorth>do we own the hardware?
13:54<@planetmaker>no, I pay monthly 45€ for it
13:54<@planetmaker>I planned to use my old machine... but I fried it
13:54<andythenorth>get a 2nd rental, move A->B ?
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13:55<@planetmaker>well, yesish... that would be my choice
13:56<@planetmaker>I was hoping actually s/o had a machine to use transitionally :)
13:57<@planetmaker>i.e. move current devzone onto it, and setup everything anew on the existing machine
13:57<@planetmaker>and migrating stuff to it as it becomes available
13:57<andythenorth>rent a commodity VM?
13:57<@planetmaker>hm... maybe, yes
13:58<andythenorth>or similar
13:59<andythenorth>TrueBrain knows about servers? :)
13:59<@planetmaker>hm, yeah. A cheap monthy VM contract, moving everything essential there... then an upgrade of the HV is easy
13:59<andythenorth>or is Spike still around in coop?
13:59<@planetmaker>well... I can contact both... but both are about as available as you know it :)
14:00<@planetmaker>spike just took up a new dunno :)
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14:00<@planetmaker>but I guess some help from that side would be available
14:00<@planetmaker>with some planning
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15:14<TrueBrain>Get a droplet on Digital Ocean .. pay as long as you use it
15:14<TrueBrain>Pay-as-you-go is awesome
15:15<TrueBrain>(@planetmaker, @andythenorth)
15:15<@planetmaker>hm, let's see. thx
15:16<andythenorth>I have FIRS publishing from Azure to AWS
15:16<andythenorth>but hmmm, it was too much clicking
15:16*andythenorth doesn't like clickety click
15:16<@planetmaker>well, hm... memory... is expensive there
15:16<@planetmaker>game servers use loads of memory :)
15:17<+glx>I'm sure you can publish without clicking
15:18<TrueBrain>Memory optimized ones too?
15:18<TrueBrain>Andythenorth: GitHub actions make your life easier
15:18<+glx>yeah with github actions you can compile from github
15:18<TrueBrain>No clicks .. lot of text :p
15:19<andythenorth>there are these crazy AWS configs to paste around
15:19<TrueBrain>Just ... you need to sign up for the beta for I believe two more months
15:19<andythenorth>and a config generator
15:19<andythenorth>the lolz is that the generator makes invalid syntax due to version mismatch :)
15:19<@planetmaker>github is promoting these actions as much as they can do... for all I always see
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15:23<TrueBrain>can't blame them; it is something to be proud of
15:23<andythenorth>can we abandon coop jenkins? :)
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15:25<+glx>the only issue I see is it's hard to test changes in PRs
15:25<+glx>github action changes
15:26<TrueBrain>you need to test it in a fork, I nocited :D
15:27<@planetmaker>do you want to abandon it, andythenorth ?
15:28<@planetmaker>I'm not quite sure whether the actions work for all we need to build newgrfs... maybe...
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15:29<TrueBrain>actions == docker == linux machine
15:29<TrueBrain>so you -could- do everything .. just the question is if you want to :D
15:29<TrueBrain>which is a fair thing to consider first ;)
15:30<TrueBrain>burning everything first, thinking about that later, is the andythenorth approach ;)
15:30<+glx>it's azure pipeline integrated in github
15:32<andythenorth>I just distrust jenkins :)
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15:33<andythenorth>actually what I liked about Azure Pipelines (not much) was that it's cattle not pets
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15:34<andythenorth>jenkins historically tends towards hand-curated worker nodes
15:34<andythenorth>or hand-managed images for worker nodes
15:34<andythenorth>AP I just list python deps in a text file, and that's all
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15:35<andythenorth>no maintenance, no deps, no package manager, no conflicts, no CVEs,
15:35<@planetmaker>right. So I will setup a machine which can run docker containers. So then from github they can be triggered to build NewGRFs
15:35<@planetmaker>is that understanding correct?
15:35<andythenorth>sounds pretty good
15:35<TrueBrain>GitHub Actions run docker images
15:35<TrueBrain>so you don't need to setup any machine :P
15:36<andythenorth>I should give you access to my AP and AWS account :P
15:36<@planetmaker>so devzone is obsolete
15:36<andythenorth>if we want it to be
15:36<andythenorth>not if we don't
15:36<andythenorth>it's a choice :)
15:36<TrueBrain>its a lot of work ;)
15:36<andythenorth>bundles is *not* obsolete, there's no commodity solution for that
15:36<@planetmaker>iff github actions run docker images on github infrastructure
15:36<TrueBrain>you need to make a docker image that can build NewGRFs :D
15:37<TrueBrain>but yeah, GitHub runs those images free of charge for Open Source projects
15:37<TrueBrain>and quick
15:37<TrueBrain>basically, they give you access to a Windows / Linux / MacOS machine
15:37<andythenorth>if the goal is repo -> published artefacts on bundles, then I had it working for FIRS, but there are 5 significant problems
15:37<andythenorth>1. devzone repos don't import to github
15:38<andythenorth>2. Azure Pipelines is quite horrible
15:38<andythenorth>3. AWS is quite horrible
15:38<andythenorth>4. no way for eints to add translations
15:38<@planetmaker>well, bundles is there. And can remain there. Same for eints
15:38<andythenorth>5. have to re-write bundles for AWS
15:38<@planetmaker>And... I have a new machine now where we can make everything tidy and retire the old
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15:39<@planetmaker>(yes, the machine is 15 minutes old :P )
15:39<andythenorth>frosch thinks that we could just scp or sftp to bundles, but that means keeping auth creds in Azure
15:39<andythenorth>and probably it's not so simple anyway
15:39<@planetmaker>well, why not?
15:39<andythenorth>(not doubting frosch BTW, just don't trust tech)
15:39<@planetmaker>how else would one get stuff to that machine?
15:40<andythenorth>how does Jenkins do it?
15:40<andythenorth>doesn't it write to disk on same machine?
15:40*andythenorth may be 100% wrong
15:42<@planetmaker>it actually has the server nfs-mounted
15:42<@planetmaker>but that does not make really any difference what to do with an artefact after it is build
15:43<@planetmaker>whether you issue a cp or an scp on it
15:43<andythenorth>who does the magic with the version numbers? bundles or jenkins?
15:43<andythenorth>e.g. release/LATEST etc
15:43<@planetmaker>neither really. The build script executed by jenkins
15:43<andythenorth>that's the magic that I didn't want to replicate for AWS / Azure
15:43<@planetmaker>or the post_build script.
15:44<andythenorth>so if we dropped artefacts on a dir somewhere, a bundles script could sort it out?
15:44<LordAro>nothing particularly about storing (suitably locked down) credentials on azure/aws/actions/whatever
15:44<LordAro>particularly bad*
15:44<andythenorth>it doesn't worry me, I just couldn't find which button to click
15:45<andythenorth>I was able to give Azure an authed github connection with a revokable key
15:45<andythenorth>and some dedicated AWS creds for push to an s3 bucket
15:45<andythenorth>but generic creds I didn't find :)
15:45<@planetmaker>I would require login via ssh key... but that's easy... sorting where to put stuff... well
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15:47<@planetmaker>currently it is easy as the post build script knows the project name and the version. So it writes to the dir identical to the project name, creates a dir identical to the version. And updates the symlink of LATEST to whatever it just created (if it built the 'latest')
15:47*andythenorth tries to find the Azure FIRS project
15:47<@planetmaker>so bundles trusts the build node to store stuff in the right place and to do all the work with naming it correctly, too
15:47<andythenorth>azure is like entering neverland :P
15:47<@planetmaker>bundles itself is absolutely dumb. It does nothing other than serving files.
15:48<@planetmaker>And that as plain html without overhead
15:49<andythenorth>ok so the script is the clever part
15:49*andythenorth understands now
15:50<@planetmaker>but it's the same script for every newgrf
15:51<@planetmaker>or rather even: every project
15:52<andythenorth>maybe that's portable to other places
15:52<@planetmaker>with small adaptions: yes
15:52*andythenorth lost in Azure and AWS, the UI is...ouch
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15:56<andythenorth>FIRS published on AWS by Azure :P
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15:56<andythenorth>docs work
15:57<andythenorth>in some ways it was magical and easy
15:57<andythenorth>but I spent a very long time in bad outdated documentation
15:57<andythenorth>trying to set the bucket name, access policy, CORS policy etc
16:00<@planetmaker>so... what's wrong with bundles? :D
16:01<andythenorth>nothing, I just don't have scp / sftp / ssh
16:02<andythenorth>and in May this year, there was nobody around to look at this, so I tried alternatives :)
16:05<@planetmaker>the user management of the bundles server seems to be prime... most files belonging to users the system doesn't know :P
16:06<@planetmaker>cd ..
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16:07<Samu>it' still yesterday's game
16:08<Samu>WormAI is orange, RailwAI is green, NoNoCAB is red, LuDiAI AfterFix is blue
16:08<Samu>fast forwards too slow over here
16:09<Samu>the limits are 500 500 200 300
16:09<Samu>the defaults
16:11<Samu> the map is quite busy already
16:12<Samu>buoys may trigger the num of station ids limit
16:12<Samu>too many of them
16:14<Samu>wish there was an easy way to see how many station ids are in use
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16:37<Samu>wow, ships can walk over UFOs
16:37<Samu>and nothing happens to them
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17:12<luaduck>random feature wish for a dev to take up: how difficult would it be to be able to append a reason string to a CLIENT_KICK (so we can give clients clear and visible reasons as to why they were kicked)?
17:13<luaduck>right now the only way to give a client context as to their kick reason is to whisper to them immediately before kicking them, and hope they check their console
17:13<luaduck>if there's interest I'll raise a github issue for it
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>my guess is anywhere between "here, it's a trivial one-liner" to "holy hell, this requires a complete rewrite"
17:14<luaduck>(and yes, I am too lazy to dig the source)
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17:15<luaduck>adding it in the client would probably be trivial, but network is more interesting, though other packets like player name changes allow strings as packet data
17:16<luaduck>unfortunately this isn't really something I'd feel comfortable contributing because C
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17:20<LordAro>luaduck: none of us were born knowing how to use it :)
17:21<luaduck>fair point, but I don't need _another_ language to be actively learning, golang is my bff
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to lua?
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17:24<luaduck>lua was a terrible idea
17:24<luaduck>friends don't let friends write lua
17:24<luaduck>(my new nick is actually duck. but I retain this one on freenode for reasons)
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>i modified a line of lua once, i found it an overall unpleasant experience
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>everything about it felt somewhat off
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17:33<luaduck>I wrote lua once and now I'm a terrible person
17:42<LordAro>so i looked at the network code a bit
17:42<LordAro>it's... unclear how difficult adding a message would be
17:42<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] luaduck opened issue #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked / banned clients
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>... so that's basically what i said? :p
17:42<LordAro>yes :p
17:42<luaduck>raised the issue
17:43<LordAro>it's possible to send a message to clients, and it's possible to kick a client
17:43<LordAro>i can't tell if you can feasible combine those
17:44<luaduck>LordAro: could the packet not be expanded with extra data?
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17:47<LordAro>luaduck: that does seem feasible, yes
17:47<LordAro>i think the trickiest bit would be actually displaying the message on the other end
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17:48<_dp_>sending kick msg should be relatively easy
17:49<_dp_>though it never bothered me enough to make a pr
17:49<_dp_>wheneven I kick people they usually already know why xD
17:49<LordAro>i dare say you're probably one of the most knowledgable people regarding that area of the code :p
17:50<_dp_>and never cared if the banned ones do xD
17:50<luaduck>reason I'm requesting it is that on our reddit servers, we have an automated IP check that checks if the client is behind a proxy
17:50<_dp_>luaduck, yeah, i noticed ;)
17:51<luaduck>which kicks pretty much ASAP
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17:51<luaduck>and also a thingy which kicks players which don't change their name from the default if they try and create a company 3 times in a row
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22:59<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti opened issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 01 00:00:37 2019