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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-10-01

---Logopened Tue Oct 01 00:00:37 2019
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04:14<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
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06:40<@peter1138>Hmm, okay, what's the most useful version of git for Windows?
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06:51<Eddi|zuHause>tortoisehg :p
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06:52<Eddi|zuHause>... i could never make sense of wtf tortoisegit is meant to do
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>... afair it only added a menu entry that when you tried to select it said "this is a command line interface"
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07:31<@peter1138>Is it breakfast time yet?
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08:01<@peter1138>Yup, breakfast salad, here I come :D
08:23<@peter1138>Lunch was had.
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08:26*andythenorth curious about lunch
08:27<@peter1138>I had it.
08:28<@peter1138>Sorry, I didn't wait for you.
08:28<andythenorth>I had cheese on toast
08:28<andythenorth>and 2 cookies
08:28<andythenorth>it's not salad is it?
08:33<@peter1138>Mine was.
08:34<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
08:35<andythenorth>romaine hearts and weird shaped tomatos
08:35<andythenorth>that's salad now
08:35<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
08:36<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
08:37<@peter1138>Half a little gem, and a load of other stuff. Hmm.
08:46<andythenorth>is cold roast pork a salad?
08:46*andythenorth is exploring the fridge
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>is anything not a salad?
08:51<andythenorth>antacids tablets?
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>chips is almost like potato salad?
08:53<andythenorth>I accept your correction
08:53<andythenorth>coffee is a bean
08:59<@peter1138>My cake-dessert was not salad.
09:00<@peter1138>Both pieces, cos I'm a fucking pig.
09:01<andythenorth>is a pig salad?
09:01<andythenorth>probably covered by earlier pork discussion
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>probably better than fucking A pig?
09:02<andythenorth>oh good the validator is passing again
09:02*andythenorth back to work jenkins
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09:58<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Good morning / afternoon everyone
09:58<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I have a simple question, I want to default the audio driver on compilation time (known as SDL) to the "ALSA" and NOT "pulseaudio"
09:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>how should I run the "./configure" in order to do that?
09:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>feel free to answer here if you want your answer to be seen in the future:
10:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
10:02<nnyby>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: according to that FAQ, you would do: export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulseaudio; ./configure; make
10:02<nnyby>but i haven't tried that myself
10:02<LordAro>those options seem specific to the compilation of SDL itself? or am i misreading it?
10:03<LordAro>nnyby: also, the reverse of that :p
10:03<LordAro>SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa, probably
10:03<nnyby>ohh, whoops i misread the question. yeah
10:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>LordAro, you are probably right, I will try to use what nnyby said and see how it goes.
10:04<nnyby>also, yeah i'm not sure. the faq is called "Using SDL", it's unclear if these are SDL compile options or not.. but i suppose that would make sense.
10:05<@peter1138>.gitattributes "* text=auto" hmm
10:05<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>compiling :)
10:05<@peter1138>nnyby, no, they are run-time options.
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10:06<nnyby>in my experience pulseaudio sometimes takes over sound anyways, whether or not it's been compiled in to an application. alsa outputs sound to pulseaudio, if pulseaudio is enabled..
10:06<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
10:06<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
10:08<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Yeah, I am not a fan of pulseaudio...
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10:10<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>If I come up with a working solution I'll post the answer in the closed thread
10:15<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It fucking works, you did it nnyby and LordAro
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10:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file
10:20<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Can any of the maintainers tag the issue as "Linux"?
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10:22<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay I have a new question, if you can help me is appreciated, how can I now make everything run in the same folder, as if it was a portable version of the game
10:23<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Instead of it looking and downloading things in ~/.openttd I would like it to do everything where the game is located.
10:23<nielsm>place openttd.cfg in the same directory as the binary
10:23<nielsm>then it should use that as the base for everything
10:24<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Would that also make it look for run-time libraries there?
10:24<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Or that shouldn't be something I have to worry about.
10:24<nielsm>no that's still dependent on the OS
10:24<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Ok, is there a way to provide the libraries with the game?
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10:25<nielsm>either a 100% static build (difficult), or some tricks with LD environment variables which I don't know
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10:26<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Alright so this portable installation has a "restrictions may apply"?
10:27<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I am going to try and see if the game runs on a fresh installation of the OS, luckily that's very easy to achieve.
10:40<@planetmaker>he... WARNING: static is only known to work on Windows, DOS, and MacOSX
10:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Ah okay
10:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I'm sure there's some trickery that can be done to make it work, at least on EasyOS.
10:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Thanks all!
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11:47<doggie>i have maked a save on openttd 1.9.3 in the himalya heightmap. i have build multiply railways and after build trains on it a few wagons are now any more available in the list
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12:05<nielsm>what newgrfs and what year?
12:05<nielsm>and have you used any cheats?
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12:06<doggie> nielsm: i have i this save cheats not anabled
12:07<doggie>nielsm: i don't understand now what you are maning with newgrfs
12:08<doggie>nielsm: in the year 1952 or 1958 that i found it out
12:10<nielsm>newgrfs are mods such as different trains than the original game
12:11<nielsm>check there if any newgrf are active
12:11<doggie>nielsm: it is empty by me
12:11<doggie>nielsm: the black box
12:12<doggie>i will send a screen off it
12:12<nielsm>that's really strange then if you can't build any trains at all
12:13<nielsm>that looks normal
12:15<doggie>nielsm: yes at the first look it is normal execpt that i can't make the train long after i have build it an drive with it. now can i not found the same wagon. so that it can cargo more load per train. or can build a same train on another track
12:16<nielsm>oh... you can't make long trains
12:16<doggie>nielsm: i can make longer trains
12:17<doggie>nielsm: the wagon from the train in the wagon is not in the list
12:17<doggie>that is my problem. and it was not in 1.9.1
12:19<nielsm>okay I have an idea, try clicking the "show hidden" (verborgen weergeven) button at the top
12:19<nielsm>maybe you accidentally clicked the Hide button for the wagon
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12:36<doggie>nielsm: thanks that is the sulotuin for the problem. i will unhid them
12:36<Samu>continuing yesterdays tests
12:36<Samu>NoNoCAB has fallen to 4th place
12:36<Samu>RailwAI is now the new 3rd place
12:37<Samu>WormAI oscillates between 1st and 3rd, but most of the time it's 2nd place
12:37<Samu>and LuDiAI Afterfix oscillates between 1st and 2nd, against WormAI
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12:48<Samu>i had an idea
12:48<Samu>renaming stations, vehicles, etc... should cost money
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13:01<andythenorth>nielsm: how was the metro?
13:03<nielsm>very metroic
13:04<nielsm>the new metro, almost just like the old
13:04<nielsm>even the brand new trains look not much different from the 17 year old ones
13:07<Samu>I wonder which year will all the AIs stagnate
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13:11<Samu>fastforwarding is so terribly, horribly slow, makes me wanna...
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13:19<Samu>i just noticed ShipAI ships don't service
13:19<Samu>255 breakdowns, lol
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13:20*andythenorth wonders what a regions interface might look like
13:20<andythenorth>is it via tile, or town? o_O
13:21<frosch123>polygons of tiles
13:21<nielsm>my idea was per tile
13:22<frosch123>is there a use case for regions?
13:22<nielsm>though I suppose polygonal would be much less storage
13:22<nielsm>dreams of game scripts
13:22<frosch123> <- i never found an interesting gs idea for that one
13:22<frosch123>it was inspired by simutrans actually
13:23<frosch123>but back then there weren't any interesting scenarios for simutrans either
13:23<frosch123>maybe they have now
13:24<nielsm>not as much text :P
13:25<nielsm>but I think it's worth separating natural regions versus political regions
13:25<frosch123>i think zuu had some gs which took input from signs placed in scenario editor
13:25<nielsm>unless you allow overlap
13:25<frosch123>but everyone uses random maps, not se :p
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13:26<frosch123>i mainly wanted to add a gs-hook to commands
13:26<frosch123>and leave the "meaning" to the gs
13:27<andythenorth>my use case is co-locating industries
13:27<andythenorth>I can _somewhat_ do it with location checks already
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13:27<andythenorth>but it's very sensitive to map settings
13:28<andythenorth>and if I add too many checks, it's prone to deadlocks (or more accurately, missing industries)
13:28<andythenorth>and slow game start
13:28<+glx>like ECS toursist centers ?
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13:29<+glx>silly map requirements
13:30<andythenorth>I like having very inter-connected industry chains in FIRS`
13:31<andythenorth>so maybe 4 or 8 industry types might be related
13:31<andythenorth>and I dislike building long long routes :P
13:33<andythenorth>so my idea is something like defining polygons with radius maybe 48px
13:33<andythenorth>number of polygons depends on map size
13:34<andythenorth>newgrf could request OpenTTD to create n polygons with a label
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13:34<andythenorth>or an ID
13:34<andythenorth>and then industries would check that label / UID / whatever when constructing
13:35<andythenorth>the newgrf could decide whether to include / exclude etc
13:35<andythenorth>local to the CB chain
13:36<andythenorth>this is not the only use case I can think of :)
13:37<andythenorth>but the ideas I have for GS fail because GS is not event driven :)
13:37<andythenorth>and GS is blind to the newgrf
13:37<andythenorth>and also...just GS :P
13:38<frosch123>gs is also after map/industrry gen
13:38<Samu>with savegame
13:38<Samu>if you want to check your AI
13:38<andythenorth>to be fair to GS, I think it's already achieved what it's good for
13:38<andythenorth>which is city growth and/or transport goals
13:38<andythenorth>but it's a blunt instrument
13:39<andythenorth>maybe it needs filed under 'all good' and stop even trying to think how to make it work with newgrf
13:41<_dp_>I just was a bit curious to see some stats on what settings serves use...
13:41<_dp_>and, boy, that escalated quickly
13:41<_dp_>now I have a knock-off settings.ini parser, udp client, tcp client and savegame parser all in python xD
13:41<_dp_>and this...
13:42<andythenorth>I love stats :)
13:47<Samu>92% disasters?
13:48*andythenorth wonders about electricity / energy via regions
13:48<andythenorth>there's a proof newgrf somewhere for doing it in town registers
13:49<andythenorth>dunno if electricity is fun though
13:49<andythenorth>is it too much simcity?
13:50<frosch123>so 99% of server people put no thought into settings?
13:51<_dp_>oopsie, I think I got booleans wrong xD
13:51<frosch123>oh, ok, i was particulary confused by those
13:53<+glx>yeah build_on_slope and auto_slope clearly feels wrong
13:54<_dp_>booleans fixed
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13:59<_dp_>can clearly see settings with wrong defaults :p
13:59<_dp_>exclusive rights, breakdowns, 90 turns
14:00<Samu>ai_in_multiplayer = true (65.0%), false (35.0%)
14:00<Samu>i never see any AI servers
14:01<Samu>max_no_competitors = 0 (95.6%), 1 (2.7%), 4 (0.5%), 3 (0.5%), 2 (0.5%)
14:01<milek7>90 turns look 50/50
14:01<Samu>meh that explains it
14:02<_dp_>Samu, don't think it matters if ai list is empty
14:02<Samu>so they turn AIs on, but then set up 0 competitors...
14:02<_dp_>competitors, I think are sent separately, I don't catch those
14:03<_dp_>Samu, it's just on by default
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14:03<Samu>i see
14:03<Samu>they just don't bother with settings then
14:05<_dp_>I've no idea why that setting even exists
14:06<Samu>I have a nasty idea
14:07<Samu>since nobody bothers with settings, change default max_no_competitors from 0 to 1 :p
14:07<Samu>see if that peaks any interest in AIs or just complaints in the forum
14:09<_dp_>Samu, I bet it won't do anything without [ai_players] configured
14:09<Samu>it starts Dummy AI, advising players to download an AI
14:10<Samu>or if they actually have an AI... :p
14:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: Garratt :)
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14:13<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #8: Scheduled monthly dependency update for October
14:14<Wolf01>I wonder what YT will suggest tomorrow
14:43<nielsm> THANK YOU!
14:50<+glx>oh nice the PR triggered github actions
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15:33<TrueBrain>nielsm: wow, that is a good improvement :o
15:40<andythenorth>so...could we stop this happening? :)
15:40<andythenorth>I mean the industry placement, not the existence of reddit :P
15:40<andythenorth>ideas I had
15:41<nielsm>huge water check zone in front of industry
15:41<andythenorth>- huge water check zone in front of industry
15:41<andythenorth>- tile search in specific directions, checking for water
15:42<andythenorth>- cache number of connected water tiles, and make it available in a var
15:42<nielsm>aren't there a bunch of bits free in the water tiles? can we add "connects to edge of map" bit somewhere?
15:42<andythenorth>that would be ideal
15:43<andythenorth>there is a possible edge case with all 4 map edges as land, and a big circular sea in middle :P
15:44<frosch123>industry layouts already have that water test
15:44<frosch123>or is that not enough?
15:44<andythenorth>I like to avoid 'locked in' ports
15:44<andythenorth>I know that's a silly concern
15:45<andythenorth>but I end up generating endless newgames to avoid it :)
15:45<frosch123>add the refinery rule
15:45<frosch123>only build near map border
15:46<andythenorth>what's the switch limit?
15:46<andythenorth>not enough to tile search to the edge of the map ;P
15:47<andythenorth>alternative proposal
15:47<andythenorth>map gen prevents locked in sea :P
15:47<+glx>it's called a lake
15:50*nielsm is again trying to find the source of wentbourne transport
15:50<nielsm>the gamelog says it was migrated from saveload version 92 which corresponds to 0.6.x
15:51<nielsm>and then migrated to 1.7.0 and 1.7.1 in turn
15:51<nielsm>so it was probably uploaded during 2017 or early 2018
15:51<nielsm>but it's a very old game
15:53<Samu>intel core i9-10980X 18 cores 36 threads at "only" $979
15:53<+glx>only useful in a server
15:54<Samu>right before AMD announces their 64 core threadrippers
15:54<Samu>poor intel
15:54<milek7>i don't think they are poor at all
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15:55<Samu>at least I think they're capable of offering 64-core in that socket
15:55<Samu>direct competing socket
15:59<Samu>There was a recession, let's see who comes stronger after
16:00<Samu>WormAI was the least impacted during recession, surprisingly
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16:01<Samu>post recession the other 3 most competitive AIs turned around and WormAI is 4th atm
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16:02<Samu>wondering about RailwAI, it's 2nd atm
16:03<Samu>WormAI vs RailwAI are competing for the 2nd place
16:03<Samu>very volatile profits though
16:04<Samu>as for 5th and 6th, we have SnakeAI vs ShipAI
16:04<Samu>they're further behind as the top 4
16:04<Samu>but competing for the 5th place atm
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16:07<Samu>woah, RailwAI nearly surpassed LuDiAI AfterFix
16:07<Samu>very heat competition for the first 4 AIs
16:07<Samu>well, just 3, I think NoNoCAB has given up
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16:32<Samu>RailwAI reached 1st place for the first time!
16:32<Samu>this is interesting
16:33<Samu>gonna keep this game running, see where it ends
16:33<Samu>hope save / load doesn't affect how they behave
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16:36<Samu>it was short lived :(
16:36<Samu>I mean :)
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17:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
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23:59<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
---Logclosed Wed Oct 02 00:00:39 2019