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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-10-02

---Logopened Wed Oct 02 00:00:39 2019
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05:06<@peter1138>Is it lunch yet?
05:09<@peter1138>Already had breakfast today anyway so... just being greedy.
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05:15<Samu>there was a recession at the end of 2091. RailwAI is approaching first place. WormAI has fallen to 3rd.
05:15<@peter1138>> Most viral images > Fat guy's boobs...
05:16<andythenorth>2014/09/28/16:51 <@peter1138> I should implement roadtypes just to spite you :D
05:16<andythenorth>found by accident
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05:17*andythenorth thinking about snowploughs :P
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>dunno what parts of the internet you people are using
05:18<Samu>WormAI has a problem with recessions
05:18<Samu>everytime it is appoaching first, and a recession happens, it starts a slight decline
05:18<andythenorth>is there a hidden var for total town population on the map?
05:18*andythenorth can't find one
05:19<andythenorth>had an idea about each industry requiring x total population
05:19<Samu>somewhere in display town directory gui
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's calculated for the town list window, aafair
05:19<andythenorth>not newgrf, doesn't count :)
05:19<andythenorth>tying industry production to population is tedious
05:19<andythenorth>but tying industry construction to population might be interesting
05:20<andythenorth>unrelated, I can't find pikka's snowplough :P
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, banks check for population
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>and some ECS industries check for population nearby
05:21<@peter1138>Samu, you can link to just the image as well, btw. < Does not have a side-bar full of semi-naked fat men.
05:22<andythenorth>checking for population nearby could work, it just seems more likely to go wrong
05:22<andythenorth>and need more text writing to explain it
05:22<@planetmaker>tying population to industry production will fail for different house newgrfs... they all have different ideas on what population density should be
05:23<andythenorth>well *not* making changes is much easier :)
05:23*andythenorth trying to find any reason to even have towns on the map
05:24<andythenorth>they seem to just get in the way of industries
05:24<@planetmaker>checking for num_houses and their town_zone might be the more portable approach
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, not brexiting would be way easier
05:24<andythenorth>am I playing the wrong game?
05:24<andythenorth>maybe I am confusing OpenTTD with F
05:25<@planetmaker>F is happy to break mod interfaces
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, i guess F is also moving much faster
05:26<@planetmaker>and only has one... instead of like... 3 or 4
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you can't change them, you need to add more :p
05:27<andythenorth>as FIRS evolves, noticeable accidental trend is removal of all the town cargos
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>remember when TrueBrain wanted to add another one? :p
05:27<@planetmaker>honestly no: when was that and what?
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>about a year ago
05:28<andythenorth>about 6 months ago, and it was a compile-time API to the existing APIs afaict
05:29<andythenorth>then TB ran into the sadness
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>or the madness?
05:29<andythenorth>well the APIs are a terrible mess
05:29<@peter1138>Someone joked and that killed it off.
05:29<@planetmaker>that lies close together
05:29<andythenorth>and yet the game I'm playing right now is fun
05:29<andythenorth>and making newgrfs is fun
05:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are you finishing the town layout patch, it's sooooooo much better
05:30<andythenorth>also rivers :P
05:30<@planetmaker>well... inventing a new API would result in
05:30<andythenorth>stop teasing with 50% done patches that make worthwhile changes :P
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm sure nobody noted that before :p
05:30<@planetmaker>however... lunch time now :D
05:30<andythenorth>oof lunch
05:31*andythenorth elevenses
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that link only appears about 19 times in the log of the last 10 years
05:33<andythenorth>do we need a new API? :D
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's not 11:38 yet
05:33*andythenorth must get on a bike
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06:03<Samu>trivia - destroying a UFO destroys houses if near houses?
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06:06<Samu>the answer is yes
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06:59<Samu>the explosion is a bit off
07:00<Samu>it affects more squares than the fiery thing
07:10<@peter1138>Could be broken sprite offsets, seeing as it doesn't affect some of the top tiles.
07:10<@peter1138>Try it with the proper base set.
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>so, did the bike have lunch?
07:12<Samu>proper base set?
07:12<Samu>it's opengfx
07:12<@peter1138>Samu, TTD original.
07:13<Samu>i dont have that here
07:13<@peter1138>Well you should.
07:13<andythenorth>my bike needs feeding
07:13<andythenorth>battery is flat
07:13<andythenorth>forgot to plug it in
07:14<andythenorth>much slower :P
07:14<@peter1138>You still have legs.
07:14<andythenorth>yes I used legs
07:14<andythenorth>legs are required with or without battery
07:14<andythenorth>it's just more fun going everywhere at 25mph
07:14<andythenorth>oops, that would be illegal
07:14<andythenorth>that doesn't actually happen of course
07:15<andythenorth>funny, can ride a pushbike as fast you like
07:15<andythenorth>but an assisted bike is not permitted to do more than 17mph
07:15<@peter1138>Yes, but the assumption is the average cyclist will be doing 10mph on the pavement anyway...
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>tell that to the tour de france?
07:16<@peter1138>They're not exactly average.
07:16<@peter1138>They also take more drugs.
07:16<@peter1138>Sorry, medication.
07:16<andythenorth>necessary medication
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: does that limit change if you have a moped driver license?
07:18<andythenorth>it changes if you tax and insure the bike as a road vehicle
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>that makes somewhat sense
07:18<andythenorth>but then it can't be ridden on cycle paths, or in cycle lanes
07:23<LordAro>NL seems to be quite happy with mopeds on their cycle paths
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>NL has LOOOOTS of cycle paths, though :p
07:26<@peter1138>You'd need to get the bike type-approved. And fit number plates. And have an MOT.
07:26<@peter1138>So you might as well just get a moped :p
07:27<@peter1138>e-mopeds are a thing of course.
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, in germany electric bikes don't count as motor vehicle
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>... by research of about 5 minutes on wikipedia
07:28<@peter1138>e-bikes don't as long as they comply with the limits (power limit and must not be self-powered)
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>... if the motor has less than 250W and is limited to 25km/h
07:32<andythenorth>maybe I should just tax and insure it, and get one with a really big motor :P
07:32<andythenorth>I don't ride on many cycle paths
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>... if you get an insured version, you can go 45km/h apparently
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>... which is a really dangerous speed if you want to go on actual roads
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>... because everyone else will be going 60km/h (at 50km/h speed limit)
07:34<@planetmaker>Samu, what type of explosion is that?
07:35<@planetmaker>or refinery?
07:35<@peter1138>One of the UFOs
07:35<@peter1138>You can see the fighter jet.
07:35<@planetmaker>yeah. but that flies over the whole map from East to West :)
07:35<@peter1138>Which is a bomber really :p
07:36<@planetmaker>nah, the avanger :)
07:36<@peter1138>Yeah but the chances of a refinery explosion at the same time as the fighter...?
07:36<@planetmaker>12% :P
07:36<@peter1138>OH THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN
07:36<@peter1138>> Happens 75% of the time
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>... ok, this article descends into legalese which makes my head hurt, i'm going to stop...
07:42<@peter1138>So eccles cakes... why are they so high in carolies?
07:42<@planetmaker>calories are the carriers of taste. So...
07:43<@peter1138>They're like, sugar wrapped in a crust of sugar.
07:44<@planetmaker>yeah... taste is carried by or attached to sugar and fat usually :)
07:44<@planetmaker>or both
07:45<Samu>it was a large UFO, landed on some house
07:46<Samu>or maybe on clear terrain, adjacent to a house
07:46<Samu>graphics were overlapping
07:47<@peter1138>That's why I suggested some sprite offset.
07:47<@peter1138>And therefore testing against the proper graphics.
07:47<@planetmaker>s/proper/often illegal/ ;)
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>since when do large ufos land on clear terrain?
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>back in my days, they only landed on tracks
07:49<@peter1138>I was assuming it's clear due to having been bombed :p
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07:55<Samu>competing for 1st place is heating up
07:56<Samu>WormAI vs LuDiAI AfterFix vs RailwAI
08:06*andythenorth builds loads of connected docks
08:06<andythenorth>as many as 4
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08:19<@peter1138>Oh yeah. I just had lunch.
08:19<andythenorth>tuna sandwich
08:19<andythenorth>tuna is salad
08:19<@peter1138>With a bit of Port Salut cheese.
08:19<@peter1138>And a chunk of fruit cake.
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08:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: I was wondering why fishing harbours don't come with a built-in dock? They definitely look like they should be one
08:43<andythenorth>because $reasons
08:44<andythenorth>would you like all of them, or just that one? :)
09:12<FLHerne>More reasons would be interesting :P
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>my prime reason would be lack of transfer from ship to train/truck
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>you only really need dock at fishing harbor if you have separate fishing grounds
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10:08<FLHerne>Well, a player can always build their own dock if needed
10:15<andythenorth>reasons include...
10:16<andythenorth>- don't want airports at fishing harbours, ports etc
10:16<andythenorth>- shared dock tiles confuses cdist
10:16<andythenorth>- shared dock tiles create accidental sharing in MP
10:17<andythenorth>- there is only one dock tile, no multi-dock
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>that last one is invalid now?
10:17<andythenorth>oh maybe
10:18<andythenorth>- there was a nearly-finished yexo patch queue for new ports, that provided control over industry dock tiles
10:18<andythenorth>anyway, those are the reasons
10:18<andythenorth>I don't hate the idea, it just seemed to have downsides
10:25<andythenorth>flat docks anyone? o_O
10:25<andythenorth>build on water
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>only thing you really need is a GUI for it?
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11:33<Samu>difficult to see now who's leading
11:33<Samu>LuDiAI AfterFix: 9
11:34<Samu>RailwAI: 12
11:34<Samu>WormAI: 3
11:34<Samu>so RailwAI is leading
11:37<Samu>year 2110, I'm finally overtaken :(
11:44<supermop_work>do three track lines ever make sense?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>usually you want to give the trains as few choices as possible
11:45<supermop_work>both in game and also in real life
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11:46<supermop_work>the advantage of a peak direction only express seems not that useful
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>there isn't really any "peak"
11:48<supermop_work>as you can't have twice the capacity in one direction without trains piling up at the end
11:50<supermop_work>and if you put 0.5 capacity of the 'down' line on each 'up' line, you might as well just run it two tracks
11:56<supermop_work>Eddi|zuHause: yeah ofc there is no rush hour in game, but i cant really think of any other use cases
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you have trains accelerate slow in one direction, you could double that track
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>and alternate the trains between both
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>(usually that's only useful on station exits, once the trains are up to speed, you can join the two lines)
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12:36<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Hello again
12:36<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Is there a way to compile OpenTTD and make it use Alsa instead of the nightmare of PulseAudio?
12:37<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>like, completely and absolutely ignore pulseaudio
12:37<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Because it's still giving me nightmares
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>there is nothing about pulseaudio that is included anywhere in the game
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>just disable pulseaudio
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>on your system
12:40<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay so when i use "ldd openttd" and it tells me that it uses, what does that mean?
12:41<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>(just to be clear I'm completely ignorant of compilers and all that, so I can't really wrap my mind around this issues I'm facing with the game crashing when I try to use audio).
12:42<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>(I was able to compile and run the game but the thing is still obsessed with running pulseaudio and the OS i'm using has like problems with it)
12:43<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Right now I'm having execution time crashes due to pulseaudio vs alsa
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>i would assume that's some secondary library
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>so, like openttd links to some sound library, and that sound library links to pulse
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably tell ./configure to compile without sound
12:45<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>So, what I found out is that if I do in a terminal:" export SDL_AUDIODRIVER; openttd "
12:45<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>The game runs
12:45<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>and has sound
12:45<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>but If I reboot and try to run just "openttd" the thing crashes horribly
12:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>And it gives me that
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could put that export in your .profile
12:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>So the whole system runs in alsa?
12:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>or whatever that export does
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>export just sets the variable
12:47<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>" export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa; openttd "
12:47<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>ah okay
12:47<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>maybe I can make an .sh script just for openttd
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12:47<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Is that the "best solution" or just a band-aid solution?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>if you make a script, or an alias, you can leave out the export, just "VAR=value program"
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>instead of "export VAR=value; program"
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>the export makes it remember it for future runs
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12:48<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>so line1: "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa" line2: "openttd"
12:48<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>in the script
12:48<Wolf01>I made andy quit :(
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>no, all in one line
12:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>ah okay.
12:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>no ; or anything similar?
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>with a space inbetween
12:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Still, it's just a band-aid solution, right?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>but i do this stuff all the time
12:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay, second issue
12:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I have no music. And I can't find any debug information about it
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>like, in steam -> settings -> start options
12:51<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Like, the playlist just skips songs like crazy
12:51<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>as if it couldn't play any song
12:51<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It has something to do with midi libs?
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>so, you got the songs installed, and selected the music set in the menu?
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>you likely miss timidity
12:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>okay will look for it
12:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I have fluidsynth
12:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>has something to do with that?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>you can use that, but you have to add some command line option, which i don't know
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>like, -m extmidi:somestuff
12:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>lets see
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>(you can add that to your script)
12:53<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>maybe on the ./configure
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>no, that should be a run time option
12:54<LordAro>fluidsynth support is a compile time thing, iirc
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you can set it in the .cfg
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I have this on the configure: enables icu components for locale specific string sorting
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --static-icu try to link statically (libsicu instead of
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> libicu; can fail as the new
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>--with-midi=midi define which midi-player to use
12:54<LordAro>extmidi support might have been (temporarily) removed in 1.9.x, i can't remember
12:54<nielsm>extmidi is still supported
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-midi-arg=arg define which args to use for the
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> midi-player
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-libtimidity[="pkg-config libtimidity"]
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> enables libtimidity support
12:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-fluidsynth enables fluidsynth support
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: that looks wrong
12:54<nielsm>it's just not default if you have any other midi support
12:55<nielsm>--with-midi is extmidi
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: ok, you probably want --with-fluidsynth then
12:55<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>okay will try that and see if it blows up
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>(i would assume it picks that up automatically if installed, though)
12:56<nielsm>fluidsynth is the general best choice for softsynth midi on linux
12:56<nielsm>(and there isn't any good choice for external/hardware synths)
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i should get a board with an ISA slot and see how my sound blaster AWE32 still works? :)
12:57<nielsm>it won't be useful on linux
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>i once installed some soundblaster driver in win3.11 in my dosbox
12:58<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>hmm I am confused by the fact that when I try to do "make" again after another "make" the whole things errors out
12:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Like, if I compile with a fresh folder of the source code, it compiles fine, but If I do one compilation and then try to make another one it doesn't like it.
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should switch to HardOS? :p
12:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Any command to "clean up" the folder and leave it pristine?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>"make clean"?
12:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>it "works" but doesn't work at the same time
12:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Like, doesn't clean completely
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>there may be "make distclean" or something
13:00<milek7>weird, what error with incremential make?
13:00<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>ah yes
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13:00<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>ah god dammit I'll just erase everything and start again
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>there's probably some git invocation that deletes all files that wouldn't be there on a clean checkout
13:02<milek7>make mrproper clean everything
13:02<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I'll see if that makes the trick milek
13:02<milek7>but it definitely should work without deleting everything each time ;P
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>bye Eddi|zuHause , thanks
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>maybe permissions or timestamps are messed up?
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>make[1]: Entering directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>make[1]: *** No rule to make target '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/bin/baseset/orig_dos.obg', needed by 'all'. Stop.
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>make[1]: Leaving directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>make: *** [Makefile:56: all] Error 1 "
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>that's the error if you want to know
13:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>There's no permissions Eddi|zuHause , easyos runs as root
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a horrible idea
13:04<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Ah, maybe
13:04<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>But I don't really care haha
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'll really go now, or i'll have nightmares
13:05<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Sure thing, good night/day to you
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13:10<milek7>about disabling pulseaudio, you could probably compile sdl without it
13:10<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I could but that would break firefox
13:11<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Because the devs of firefox decided that dropping alsa alltogether was a good idea.
13:12<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I only need that OpenTTD denies its existence.
13:13<milek7>firefox depends on sdl?
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13:13<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay I have limits on what I know :)
13:13<milek7>and there is that too:
13:15<milek7>anyway, maybe pulse deserved hate 10 years ago, but since few years it usually works ;P
13:15<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It makes me unhappy
13:17<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I think I will go with the band-aid solution and try to get fluidsynth to work on the midi
13:18<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>on the help line at -/configure that puts: " --with-midi=midi " what are the possible options for "midi"?
13:20<nielsm>the name of a program that will take the name of a midi file as a commandline parameter and play it
13:24*andythenorth plays a game with a perfect map
13:24<andythenorth>maybe regions aren't needed :P
13:24<andythenorth>I generated about 30 maps to get this one :)
13:25<andythenorth>unrelated, goose industry?
13:31<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>ok, fluidsynth in you I trust
13:36<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It failed to me :(
13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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13:51<FLHerne>Idea: script that inspects the generated map after each stage (terrain, towns, industries, [?]) and accepts/rejects it
13:51<FLHerne>If rejected, rollback to the previous step and try again
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like custom map generators on steroids
13:52<FLHerne>No, for town/industry placement it would be easier to just have a script to do it...
13:54<nielsm>well, how about just adding a map preparation phase to GS then, where it can execute as many ticks as it wants before players get control?
13:54<nielsm>and allow it to snapshot the map during that to roll back
13:54<nielsm>then the GS will be creating the towns and industries itself
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: i think the idea was to not go through the hassle of creating the towns and industries yourself, just check whether it looks good
13:55<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause yes I get that
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>(not sure how that latter part would be easier)
13:55<nielsm>but I reject that idea :)
13:55<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: That was the idea, and then I realised it was stupid :P
13:56<FLHerne>Except maybe for terrain
13:56<nielsm>instead of re-rolling a dice until you get a 6, just turn the dice to show 6 yourself :P
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>a terrain preview on the main menu might be useful
13:56<FLHerne>Because terrain-gen in a script would be slow, and the current generator is capable of making nice landscapes
13:56<nielsm>yes the terrain get should not be up to GS, that would be inefficient
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>if you want custom terrain, just make a heightmap
13:57<FLHerne>Side note: I think some script methods to examine larger areas of terrain might be useful for other things?
13:58<FLHerne>e.g. AI pathfinders are very slow currently
13:58<milek7>factorio-like map preview?
13:58<FLHerne>(and tend to limit the search space to compensate, and produce crap paths)
13:58<nielsm>I'm trying to think of what large-scale map inspection would look like and not sure I can think of anything really great
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: i don't think factorio invented map previews
13:59<andythenorth>what problem are we solving again?
13:59<nielsm>like pick a center and radius and get some statistics on that? lowest and highest point, number of water tiles, number of flat tiles, number of slope tiles?
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>i once tried to make a gamescript that runs a triangulation on the map to find out which cities neighbour each other, but on large maps, that wasn't done by the time the game was handed off to the user
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause>(mainly because i placed signs for debugging purposes, and placing a sign ends your tick)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>(that would potentially become a problem if you want to place objects as border fences or something)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>(or road connections)
14:05<FLHerne>nielsm: Yes, that's about what I was thinking
14:06<FLHerne>nielsm: Basically, anything that would help pick a high-level route ("there's a dip in the hills around here")
14:07<FLHerne>Current AI pathfinding seems to poke around tile-by-tile over a small area, until saying "sod it" and building straight over a mountain
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>you probably want some tree structure for that kind of analysis
14:08<nielsm>like a quadtree?
14:08<FLHerne>Or tries to build routes that make no sense, because the industries are close in principle but on widely-separated islands
14:08<FLHerne>So it either (a) builds a hugely expensive bridge, or (b) invests a huge amount of time determining that it /needs/ one and then gives up
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>the exact details of your data structure probably depends on the specific problem you're trying to solve
14:10<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Right
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>things to consider: a) building up that structure probably takes some time, so your AI might still spend ages inactive, and b) other players terraforming might make your data invalid
14:10<nielsm>a full map quadtree constantly maintained by all terrain operations!
14:11<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: My thought was that it would be better to have some routines (and their underlying datastructures) implemented in OTTD C++ as part of the API
14:11<nielsm>could be combined with a complete terrain rewrite to store the terrain in blocks instead of one contiguous array
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>concerning b) you might want to have a data structure that allows easy recovery from local changes. like, maybe a heap?
14:11<FLHerne>To largely mitigate your (a) and (b), and any such datastructure could potentially be reused for other game calculations
14:12<FLHerne>e.g. for quickly ruling-out impossible paths for ships
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>we don't really have that :p
14:16<Wolf01>andythenorth: steam-turbine locomotive with huge running cost at low speed?
14:17<Wolf01>But at high speed really low running cost
14:19<Wolf01>While economical at speed, the locomotive was highly uneconomical at lower speed. The turbine used less steam than conventional locomotives above 30 mph (48 km/h), but below that the locomotive used too much steam and fuel.
14:19<Wolf01>(this from the S2)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>"uneconomical" doesn't mean the cost actually increased at low speed
14:24<Wolf01>I read that at high speed the costs are comparable to diesel ones
14:24<Wolf01>*were, since there are no more of them
14:26<andythenorth>so I have added some industrial trams to Road Hog using NRT
14:26<andythenorth>but somehow they're less appealing than the HEQS ones
14:26<andythenorth>not sure why yet
14:28<andythenorth>maybe it's the railtype menu?
14:29<andythenorth>or that they all look the same?
14:29<andythenorth>or that the names are really really long?
14:29<andythenorth>or that they're slow?
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>all of those?
14:30<andythenorth>quite possibly
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14:34<andythenorth>composable RVs? o_O
14:34<supermop_work>andythenorth: ive had the same problem with industrial trams
14:35<supermop_work>names and menu get way too long
14:36<supermop_work>composing like trains would solve, but then its like do trams want to be different from trains?
14:38<andythenorth>is problem eh?
14:38<andythenorth>so HEQS trams work though?
14:38<andythenorth>and Road Hog pre-NRT trams worked great
14:39<andythenorth>grf design must evolve!
14:39<andythenorth>send memo!
14:40<supermop_work>heqs is manageble
14:41<supermop_work>road hog is ok-ish but you don't have quite as many permutations?
14:42<supermop_work>heqs collapsed rake length and wagon type into refits
14:42<andythenorth>and Hog the trams all look very different
14:43<andythenorth>also, in game they are all 16/8
14:43<andythenorth>so they fill road stops really well without blocking
14:45<supermop_work>tbh i used to care more about efficient road stop fitting but i've come to be ambivalent
14:46<supermop_work>in mopRVs idk if ended up even trying
14:49<supermop_work>16/8 or longer is useful if put a stop in front of a tram depot as an escapement for lazy timetabling
14:51<supermop_work>8/8 or less is useful as you can have two routes through a stop without worrying if the timetables coincide at the shared stop
14:53<supermop_work>for mop rv i ended up just only doing open wagons and box cars
14:53<supermop_work>no tankers
14:55<andythenorth>currently I'm only building feldbahn because I have to for testing :P
14:56<andythenorth>otherwise I'd use the town freight trams, they're faster :P
14:57<andythenorth>and the town freight trams look cool
14:57<andythenorth>the feldbahn are just small trains
15:01<Samu>which plane profits more?
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15:01<Samu>75 pass, 10 mail
15:01<Samu>65 pass, 18 mail
15:03<andythenorth>potato / potato?
15:06<Samu>there should be a profit calculator somewhere
15:07<Samu> eh... almost
15:08<_dp_>by almost you mean to planes?
15:09<_dp_>I felt to point to bother with charts for planes :p
15:09<_dp_>A21 is the best, end of story :p
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15:10<Samu>AirTaxi A34-1000
15:10<Samu>Yate Z-Shuttle
15:10<Samu>Kelling K1
15:12<nielsm>mail should be paying better than passengers, I think?
15:12<nielsm>for same amount transported over same distance in same time
15:12<nielsm>but mail also weighs 4x more per unit than passengers
15:13<Samu>3 different AIs, 3 different choices
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15:13<Samu>oh, the other is 85 pass, 10 mail
15:14<Samu>but it has low reliability
15:15<_dp_>Darvin 300 and dinger 200 are worth considering if your airports are clogging, others just suck
15:16<Samu>dinger 200 is a large plane, this choice is only small planes
15:16<_dp_>mail is technically more profitable I guess but there is much less mail and if you already build an airport you may transport passengers as well
15:17<Samu>there's only these 3 planes available past 2051
15:17<Samu>my AI went with the most reliable, lower running cost 75/10
15:18<_dp_>for small ones lb-9
15:18<Samu>NoNoCAB went 65/18
15:18<_dp_>but it's prety pointless to use small unless they're not available
15:19<_dp_>which can only happen on citymania as it's not a vanilla setting
15:19<_dp_>*unless big ones are not available
15:20<Samu>big ones are available, but in AI maps, it's rare to have space for large airports
15:20<Samu>roads everywhere, hills, houses, they tend to build commuters often
15:20<_dp_>Samu, build more small ones
15:21<_dp_>crashes don't matter much, you can just advertise after it
15:22<nielsm>say,.. isn't this wrong?
15:22<nielsm>it doesn't match the description in the comment, as far as I can tell
15:22<frosch123>hmm, i guess it should not have stated with simutrans by looking into the settings gui.... why can you select the savegame version?
15:23<nielsm>previous version looks much more like the described algorithm
15:24<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Hey people who's smarter than me, do libraries (such as libtimidity) have dependencies?
15:24<nielsm>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: yes, but usually they're taken care of automatically by pkgconfig
15:24<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Is there a way to "check" the dependencies of a library?
15:25<nielsm>you'd get loader/linker errors if they aren't satisfied
15:25<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay, great then nielsm
15:25<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Back to bashing my head against the keyboard :)
15:26<nielsm>usually something like "symbol not found __blabla_xxx"
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15:27<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I see
15:27<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay I made what I needed and it didn't blow up so far :D
15:28<nielsm>okay after some more thinking about it: no, the cargo payment algorithm is not wrong :)
15:28<_dp_>nielsm, seems fine
15:28<_dp_>nielsm, const int days_over_days2 = max(days_over_days1 - days2, 0);
15:28<nielsm>I got things flipped around in my head :)
15:28<_dp_>also iirc days2 add to days1
15:29<nielsm>yeah it's a combination of three linear functions with split points at days1 and days1+days2
15:30<nielsm>well, four, since it bottoms out at a minimum value
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: simutrans has powerlines, even tunnels for powerlines
15:32<andythenorth>can we change the cargo payment algorithm? :P
15:33*andythenorth wants to give some vehicles a bonus
15:34<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>make planes pay double, they are nerfed
15:34<_dp_>andythenorth, set slower aging?
15:34*frenchiveruti_EasyOS was being sarcastic
15:34<Samu>counting number of 1st places in the last 24 quarters
15:34<andythenorth>_dp_: but I don't want to play huge maps
15:34<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>hmm "was being" is awful grammar, right?
15:34<andythenorth>bit limiting imho
15:34<nielsm>andythenorth actually yes, you can make a cb on a cargotype
15:35<nielsm>then the cargo payment algorithm is completely overridden
15:35<andythenorth>yes, can't inspect the vehicle though
15:35<Samu>LuDiAI AfterFix: 15
15:35<nielsm>but of course you can't know what vehicle was used
15:35<nielsm>vehicles can only affect the rate at which days_in_transit increases
15:35<nielsm>but, if you control both the vehicles and the cargo, then...!!
15:36<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>This is so sad, I can't make the damn music work, even with timidity. :/
15:36<andythenorth>strikes me that cur_vehicle_multiplier * cs-> current_payment would do it :P
15:36<Samu>RailwAI: 6
15:36<+glx>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: does timidity works by itself ?
15:36<Samu>WormAI: 3
15:37<andythenorth>my suggestion is a single line change, and a trivial cb result in newgrf
15:37<andythenorth>no breaking savegames
15:37<Samu>or RailwAI: 5 , WormAI: 4 - they tie in a quarter in first place
15:37<andythenorth>multiplier defaults to 1
15:37<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>glx, I am not sure how to check that, but when I run "timidity" on a terminal it doesn't throw an error
15:38<_dp_>andythenorth, adds a ui nonsense thogh adding "cheating factor" to each vehicle :p
15:38<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I even compiled (successfully, oddly enough) libtimidity, and still the game won't play the music for me.
15:38<+glx>you should try to play midi directly from the terminal
15:38<andythenorth>[shrug] :P
15:38<Samu>do you really want music to play? :o
15:39<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>testing that out right now
15:39<andythenorth>if I make a vehicle with 9999 capacity in 8/8, is that cheating :P
15:39<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I want to make it work Samu :)
15:39<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>and c'mon, funk town <3
15:40<nielsm>funk central?
15:40<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>My brain typed town because I was reading about towns
15:40<nielsm>funk town, small central
15:40<Samu>I'm listening to Rhys Fulber / Bill Leeb other projects
15:41<Samu>so far I'm disappointed
15:41<nielsm>I'm not tired of the original TT music after 25 years
15:41<Samu>Delerium is so much different
15:41<Samu>can't believe it's the same guys that make both projects
15:42<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay. This OS is the problem, there's no doubt about that.
15:42<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>GLib:ERROR:../../../glib/ghash.c:377:g_hash_table_lookup_node: assertion failed: (!g_atomic_ref_count_compare (&hash_table->ref_count, 0))
15:42<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Same error as the game.
15:42<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>With the sound issue.
15:42<Samu>install windows
15:42*frenchiveruti_EasyOS flips his os
15:42<nielsm>if you run timidity by itself?
15:43<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>yes nielsm if I do timidity <midi>.mid it throws that error
15:43<_dp_>I just got a crazy idea of having vehicles that can change cargo type
15:43<_dp_>basically moving industries
15:43<nielsm>check if timidity's executable has a way to select audio output (i.e. switch it to alsa direct)
15:43<_dp_>don't even ask what for xD
15:43<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>_dp_, isn't that already a thing?
15:43<andythenorth>what for?
15:43<andythenorth>moving castle mod?
15:43<+glx>IIRC there's a command line switch for that
15:43<_dp_>zombie apocalypse... everything has to be done on trains... coz logic :p
15:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>glx, yes, timidity -Os (alsa output)
15:46<Samu>tried to listen to Synaesthesia - sounds similar to the old Delerium
15:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Even thought, the software is laughing at my face at this point hahaha
15:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It tells me it can't find a cfg file called "fluidr3_gm.cfg"
15:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>that should be in the same folder as timidity
15:46<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>maybe I'm missing something from the repo
15:47<+glx>the name of your OS is misleading ;)
15:47<nielsm>yeah :)
15:47<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I blame Barry Kauler
15:48<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I'm just a regular joe who likes to break stuff and learn from it.
15:50<Samu>Road ais spam roads
15:51<Samu>ship ais spam buoys
15:52<Samu>and road ais can't build bridges over buoys
15:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>IT FUCKING WORKS
15:59<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>love y'all
16:02<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Now I realize that in order for the game to work on any new installment of this OS, I would have to ship it with midity, fluid-soundfont, and a shit ton of others hahaha
16:02<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>oh well
16:02<+glx>timidity should be part of the OS
16:02<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>There's no reward without effort, right?
16:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It is not, as you said, misleading name :)
16:03<+glx>same for soundfont
16:03<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I'm lucky it uses debian repos
16:04<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>But oh well, it's just 240MB of ram when Idle
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16:05<+glx>oh doing IRC as root, no a very good idea
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16:06<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>130MB of RAM on Idle
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16:13<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Ok, thanks guys I won't bother for a while
16:13<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>(for a while)
16:17<Samu>tubular road bridges, 611 km/h
16:17<Samu>but there's no 611 km/h road vehicles
16:19<Samu>with the "realistic" acceleration model it should be funny to see
16:22<Samu>imagine Taxis
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16:23<Samu>max 3 passengers
16:23<Samu>but going at ultra speeds like 611 km/h
16:27<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>The Hover-Bus NewGRF?
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16:44<andythenorth>so flat docks then peter1138? :D
16:49<andythenorth>nielsm: in the fps meter, is cargodist / link graph all under 'cargo handling'?
16:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>So, a static build is the one that only uses the libraries inside the executable?
16:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Or something like that?
16:50<nielsm>no, link graph calculation generally doesn't get included
16:50<nielsm>unless it goes over time
16:50<nielsm>since it runs on a separate thread
16:50*andythenorth curious about mac performance
16:50<andythenorth>I have a game running at 33fps for some reason, with full animation on
16:51<andythenorth>but other times I get 20fps
16:51<andythenorth>mystery is mystifying :)
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17:14<Samu>my AI can't fight back at long last
17:14<Samu>being beaten more often than I'd like
17:15<Samu>WormAI and RailwAI are fighting for 1st in profits
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17:16<Samu>LuDiAI AfterFix can't seem to make a comeback
17:16<Samu>it can't create more vehicles, while the others can
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17:19<Samu>I'm blue
17:19<Samu>WormAI is orange
17:19<Samu>RailwAI is green
17:19<Samu>NoNoCAB can still make more vehicles, in theory it should be able to surpass blue
17:20<Samu>but has been in 4th place for a long time already
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17:25<Samu>NoNoCAB is red
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17:38<@peter1138>Binge eating time!
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18:54-!-WormnestAndroid is "WormnestAndroid" on #openttd
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20:16-!-WormnestAndroid is "WormnestAndroid" on #openttd
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21:17-!-Pikka is "realname" on #openttd
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21:25-!-Flygon is "Flygon" on #openttd
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21:32-!-muffindrake is "muffindrake" on #openttd
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22:07-!-Wormnest_ is "Wormnest" on #openttd
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 03 00:00:40 2019