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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-10-05

---Logopened Sat Oct 05 00:00:43 2019
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02:04<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] joestringer commented on pull request #7057: Fix: A few minor compile warnings under MinGW
02:15<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #101: is offline via IPv6
02:15<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #101: is offline via IPv6
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03:28<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7057: Fix: A few minor compile warnings under MinGW
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03:32<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7759: Codechange: Use std::vector for industry tile layouts
03:33<andythenorth>IPv6 again? :)
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03:37<andythenorth>oof should I join reddit?
03:37<andythenorth>so many opinions that need...engaging with
03:39<stefino>hi all. Is possible to code industry tile which will have variable graphics dependent of amount of cargo in idustry?
03:40<stefino>like Dutch stations tiles
03:41<andythenorth>yes, which variable would be used for 'cargo in industry'?
03:41<andythenorth>some value in a perm storage?
03:44<stefino>is possible to have both of them at once?
03:45<andythenorth>are you using NML?
03:45<stefino>yes NML :)
03:46<andythenorth>in the graphics chain, you can use a switch to check any of the available variables or load values from storage
03:46<andythenorth>the switch will decide which spritelayouts to use
03:47<andythenorth>industry has all the 'waiting cargo' vars
03:48<andythenorth>oh those docs might be outdated
03:48<stefino>ooohI tried to find these informations in industry tile page :)
03:49<andythenorth>tiles can read from their industry
03:49<stefino> mean update where is possible to have more produces and income cargos?
03:49<andythenorth>if you have nmlc 0.4 the docs are accurate
03:50<andythenorth>if you have newer unreleased nmlc with 16-cargo industry support, new docs need writing
03:50<stefino>so 16 income and 16 produced cargos now?
03:51<andythenorth>OpenTTD supports that
03:51<andythenorth>and nmlc has support for that coded, but not in a released version
03:53<stefino>okay okay...we have prepared our industry chains for older 3/2 version so there is no problem for us. But in the future we will use more cargo I think :)
03:54<andythenorth>16 is good
03:54<andythenorth>the 3/2 is a very nice creative constraint
03:54<andythenorth>but sometimes more is just better
03:57<stefino>yes yes I know :)
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03:59<stefino>and maybe one question from different part of OTTD. I´m finishing NRT graphics and have a question about bus stops and cargo stops. Will be possible to code different graphics for each roadtype?
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04:07<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7759: Codechange: Use std::vector for industry tile layouts
04:26<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7759: Codechange: Use std::vector for industry tile layouts
04:27<nielsm>hmm... would be it possible to replace the memcpy() and memset() functions with ones that verify whether the type they're writing to is POD or should actually be handled by C++ ?
04:30<nielsm>it would probably make everything fail to compile
04:32<_dp_>idk what you're doing but pretty sure using any mem function is a bad practice :p
04:32<nielsm>in C++ yes
04:33<nielsm>when std::is_pod<T>::value == false then memset() and memcpy() on the object is definitely UD
04:36<_dp_>why do you even need to check for pod? why not just use std::copy and std::fill and such everywhere?
04:38<nielsm>I suppose those are an option...
04:38<nielsm>oh wait, for some reason std::copy is C++17
04:38<nielsm>while std::copy_if is C++11
04:39<nielsm>std::copy_n exists in C++11
04:40<nielsm>also need std::fill_n for C++11
04:40<nielsm>oh... wait no I'm reading wrong
04:41<nielsm>they do exist since C++98 or something similarly early
04:43<_dp_>yeah, copy should be pre c++11
04:48<nielsm>argh, cheat.cpp and cheat_type.h treat a struct of same-type members as an array
04:50<_dp_>cheaters :p
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04:53<_dp_>looks like ub tbh
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04:54<LordAro>nielsm: ew
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05:33<Heiki> says “You can browse through all available files by selecting one of the four main categories at the top of this page”, apparently that assumes a quite large value of “four”
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so many opinions that need...engaging with <-- is there someone wrong on the internet?
07:09<andythenorth>not wrong
07:09<andythenorth>but maybe requiring enlightenment
07:10<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] generateui opened issue #7762: Emoji results in question mark
07:11<frosch123>planetmaker: are you doing something on devzone?
07:14<andythenorth>oof it took me 3 hours to write 4 lines of code
07:14<andythenorth>2 hours 55 minutes of that was figuring out what not to write :P
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that means you're becoming a better programmer? :p
07:14<andythenorth>I doubt it
07:14<andythenorth>I think my programming skill is like my win rate in Blitz
07:14<andythenorth>stuck at 53.16%
07:15<andythenorth>I program about as well now as I did when I was 7
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>my professor used a rule of thumb: "a bad programmer writes 100 LOC in an hour, a good programmer writes 10 LOC in an hour"
07:15<andythenorth>if someone had taught me both hex and binary when I was a kid, I might have been better
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07:16<andythenorth>I used to copy out basic programs with "&ff" etc in and no clue what that meant
07:20<andythenorth>devzone is having a lie down eh?
07:23<frosch123>it rebooted at 3am
07:23<frosch123>no idea why
07:23<frosch123>no status from the hoster
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>i should dig out some programs that i wrote as a kid
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>i might still have a diskette with them
07:27<andythenorth>do you a 5" drive?
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07:33<Eddi|zuHause>i have disk drives, but they're not hooked up to anything
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i have enough drives to make a floppotron, though
07:56<frosch123>andythenorth: looks like i found the right container to restart
07:58*andythenorth wonders about the github migration for the repos
07:58<andythenorth>oh but eints :)
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09:17<+glx>hmm for me #7762 is not a bug
09:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7762: Emoji results in question mark
10:38<supermop_Home>time to give up on this game, made a mess of getting round a mountain and it looks naff
10:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on issue #7762: Emoji results in question mark
10:40<supermop_Home>planetmaker how about petitioning to get the TT font vehicle symbols added as emoji instead?
10:42<@planetmaker>supermop_Home, it doesn't need so much petitioning... more creating glyphs
10:44<supermop_Home>I meant petitioning Unicode consortium
10:44<@planetmaker>ah :D :D
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11:17<frosch123>i wonder what our font rendering does with emoji
11:17<frosch123>out fonts are definitely monochrome
11:19<frosch123>planetmaker: devzone rebooted at 3 am, i restarted the proxy container around noon. then stuff appeared to work again
11:19<frosch123>no idea what happened otherwise
11:22<+glx>I tried some with arial unicode they don't look too bad
11:23<+glx>❤ and ✔work for me
11:24<+glx>but the smileys are not in the font :)
11:25<frosch123>no idea how to combine them :)
11:27<frosch123>damn, no unicode nicknames, i tried 🐸
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11:35<andythenorth>very Blitz
11:35<andythenorth>did I need to do some newgrf?
11:35<frosch123>have you considered replacing firs cargo names with emojis?
11:35<frosch123>there are various fruit and food emojis
11:36<supermop_Home>"Onigiri Wagon"
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11:54<nielsm>could we convert the opengfx sprite fonts into truetype and ship with the game? :D
11:57<nielsm>(regardless of that, we really ought to make some truetype versions of the various icon glyphs so they can scale and look good together with other vector fonts)
12:04<frosch123>i think junajo tried that
12:04<frosch123>no idea how far
12:04<frosch123>but he started with making svg icons
12:05<nielsm>full svg seems like overkill really
12:05<nielsm>since svg has insanely many feature
12:06<frosch123>oh, also the android port did something
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12:11<andythenorth>svg for a pixel game :P
12:13<frosch123> <- there are lots of them
12:13<frosch123>not pretty, but a start if you want to go that way
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12:53<nielsm>hmm why does this break with some but not all industries
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>what is that, a bohr bug?
13:05<andythenorth>what breaks? o_O
13:07<nielsm>it rejects the definition of the General Store in FIRS 2
13:08<nielsm>okay figured out why
13:09<andythenorth>does anyone know how to use railtype prop 11? and what the expected result is?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's probably not useful because lack of fractional values?
13:12<nielsm>allright, made everything more complicated for no gain so far
13:12<nielsm>and it seems to work
13:13<nielsm>should probably implement the new grf properties first so I can generate some test data!
13:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I don't really understand what it does
13:13<andythenorth>I can read the docs fine
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it makes trains faster in curves
13:14<andythenorth>not really
13:14<andythenorth>that's just what it says it does
13:15<andythenorth>it doesn't actually do that
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: who knows, maybe nobody tested in the last 15 years? :p
13:16<andythenorth>I did look for it in src, I'm sure it's there
13:16<andythenorth>and I did look in nml, it looked correct
13:16<andythenorth>but with curve_speed_multiplier I get 98mph in a 2 tile curve
13:17<andythenorth>curve_speed_multiplier 1 *
13:17<andythenorth>curve_speed_multiplier 2 I get 98mph in a 2 tile curve
13:17<andythenorth>maybe I should try 255 :P
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>and 0?
13:17<andythenorth>I'll test some more :)
13:18*andythenorth wonders where in src it will be
13:20<andythenorth>L354 train_cmd.cpp
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>with a little bit of squinting that sorta looks like what the docs said
13:22<andythenorth>so unless rti->curve_speed isn't set correctly
13:22<andythenorth>the error must be me
13:23<andythenorth>what does "if max_speed != absolute_max_speed" do here?
13:23<andythenorth>my test trains are entering the curves at full speed
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's UINT16_MAX
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>aka "infinite"
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>sum += pos - lastpos; <-- that seems a little bit nonsense to me? because the +pos will cancel out with the next iteration's -lastpos, so essentially you get verylastpos-firstpos?
13:29<frosch123>andythenorth: how fast is your train at max?
13:29<andythenorth>and it has tilt bonus FWIW
13:30<frosch123>so you should notice a big slow down with 2x 45° curves
13:30<frosch123>property 11 should reduce that slowdown
13:30<frosch123>oh, i remember, that property somewhat fails with articulated parts
13:31<frosch123>articulated parts make the train "longer" and the curve less sharp
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>imho, it should be a property of the track layout, and independent from the train length
13:32<frosch123>it's more or less how many curves the train is on
13:32<frosch123>so very short trains are also not affected
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>probably a bit easier: be calculated from the reserved path
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: sure, but that wouldn't explain the values he's (not) seeing?
13:34<andythenorth>I need twitch L:P
13:34<frosch123>there are also art streams, so you can also stream licking pixels into shape
13:35<andythenorth>anyway, I have set curve_speed_multiplier: 255;
13:35<andythenorth>but I get the same speed through 2 45º curves as with elrail
13:35<andythenorth>I'm sure it's user error, but I can't see where
13:37<andythenorth>'TEST' railtype
13:37<andythenorth>I guess I should decompile it and check prop 11
13:39<nielsm> <- the good commit messages
13:40<andythenorth>got an 11 followed by 255
13:42<andythenorth>nielsm: :)
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: might be an nml bug?
13:46<andythenorth>well the prop appears to be there
13:46<andythenorth>in-game newgrf debug doesn't show props for railtype
13:46<nielsm>oh well, guess I'll have to dig out grfcodec now
13:46<nielsm>and make some fun new industries
13:46<nielsm>(original industries with new layouts)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, but 255 sounds like a wrong value
13:47<andythenorth>nah I set that to be sure I hadn't misunderstood the spec
13:50<andythenorth>well it's a mystery
13:52<andythenorth>I tested with non-articulating, non-tilting trains, same result
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14:16<nielsm>will it blend??
14:17<nielsm>at least somewhat
14:20<nielsm>oh, forgot my endian a bit :P
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14:28<nielsm>good, it's loading as it should!
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>next step: it should actually do something? :p
14:47<andythenorth>anyone tried my grf? :D
14:50<nielsm>sorry to busy with my own one
14:51<nielsm>and yeah need to make it actually do something with all the extra data :P
14:51<nielsm>will have to rip out a lot of the industry creation code now :(
14:53<nielsm> <- working branch, not going to PR that one ;)
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15:14<nielsm>oh, so that's what INDUSTRYBEH_ONLY_NEARTOWN means
15:14<nielsm>distance 9 or less from town sign for the industry north corner
15:14<nielsm>what even uses that?
15:15<nielsm>I don't think it does, no
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>water tower?
15:15<frosch123>toyshop or something
15:15<nielsm>bank just needs town pop > 1200 and replace buildings
15:15<nielsm>hm maybe those yes
15:15<frosch123>bank and water tower both build over houses iirc
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>distance 9 to town sign and not overbuild houses might get tricky?
15:18<frosch123>though i think there are two flags: may build over houses and mus build over houses
15:25<andythenorth>there are
15:25<nielsm>andythenorth: for the industry "can this be built here?" callback, what would make more sense to pass as the layout used? the master layout index selected, or the tile layout index selected for the main building?
15:25<nielsm>I'm leaning towards master layout
15:25<andythenorth>master layout seems closer to current implementation?
15:25<nielsm>I think so yes
15:26<frosch123>localtion check mostly tests slopes
15:26<frosch123>so it must know the same thing as the resulting graphics would now
15:26<nielsm>since the master layout choice also affects what sub-buildings will appear, but the same tile layout for main building could be used in multiple master layouts
15:27<nielsm>frosch123 does it? I think the slope requirements are defined in the tile graphics and not the callback
15:27<frosch123>there are two callbacks, one for the whole industry, and one per tile. not sure which you meant
15:28<nielsm>the one for whole industry, callback 28
15:28<frosch123>i guess i would have to read your draft :p
15:29<nielsm>pretty sure that's all the control over land shape the grf has
15:30<nielsm>oh... right there _is_ callback 2F
15:30<frosch123>i would expect cb28 to be called only once, so for the master layout
15:30<frosch123>the sublayouts would only get the tile check
15:31<nielsm>I should probably just introduce an extra variable for those two callbacks
15:31<nielsm>the existing variable remains the tile layout, the new variable is master layout
15:31<frosch123>wasn't cb28 the horrible one? with all custom variables
15:33<frosch123>cb2f has the layout in bits 0..7 of var18, so sublayout would go into bits 8..15 or similar
15:33<frosch123>for 28... well, i guess we do not care about ttdp anymore, so same could be done with var 86
15:34<frosch123>oh wait, if cb28 is called only once, there is no sublayout at all, right?
15:34<nielsm>andythenorth: how about we figure out a way for rail stations to build up slopes (only for newgrf railtypes), that could be a special feature for narrow gauge!
15:34<nielsm>there is a sublayout for the main building
15:34<andythenorth>what about on water also?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>didn't wolf01 have a patch for sloped road stations?
15:35<frosch123>yes, 10 years old or so :)
15:36<frosch123>andythenorth: iirc when airports are flooded: when water reaches the airports, all planes crash. the airport remains until the planes expire
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>didn't we allow airport layouts with water tiles?
15:36<frosch123>have there ever been other games which have the water-flooding behaviour of ottd sea?
15:37<nielsm>dward fortress? :D
15:38<frosch123>doesn't water have an amount there? so it does not flood infinitely
15:39<nielsm>yeah, unless it's an infinite source (edge of map, or aquifer tile)
15:42<nielsm>hm, okay callback 28 gets master layout, callback 2F gets tile layout
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15:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on issue #7762: Emoji results in question mark
15:55*andythenorth wants stations on water
15:55<andythenorth>on foundations that look like piers
15:58<andythenorth>or I could just do this :P
16:18<nielsm>hmm, it compiles
16:24<nielsm> <-- one industry!
16:30<nielsm>fetch, build, fill the map with produral power plants!
16:32<andythenorth>I had a lolz idea
16:32<andythenorth>can we build perimeter fences?
16:32<nielsm>that would be difficult
16:33<nielsm>you mean like some kind of generated fence around the built area?
16:34<frosch123>most ogfx+ industries do that
16:34<frosch123>they test adjacent tiles whether they belong to the same industry
16:36<nielsm>ah, callback for graphics selection after construction?
16:37<nielsm>so it wouldn't work for disjoint buildings
16:37<andythenorth>FIRS has fences around the industry
16:37<andythenorth>but I am thinking we put it into tiles
16:37<frosch123>nielsm: why?
16:37<andythenorth>so it's not on the industry tiles, but enclosing all the sub-layouts
16:39<nielsm>frosch123: since the industry can't put fences on tiles it does not own
16:40<frosch123>ah, yes, each part would be fenced on their own
16:40<frosch123>but i would not consider that wrong
16:40<frosch123>you can build a road between them
16:41<nielsm>that's the kind of thing I was going for :D
16:42<andythenorth>I'm curious about connecting them visually somehow
16:42<andythenorth>I don't use gaps in FIRS much because it's confusing if the industry is one or several
16:43<andythenorth>magic neighbouring ground tiles? o_O
16:43<frosch123>pikka oilrigs were scattered
16:43<andythenorth>some kind of special ground texture?
16:43<frosch123>it probably does not work for all industries, but some industries are fine if they are disconnected
16:44<andythenorth>is there an option to force sublayouts to be contiguous? o_O
16:44<andythenorth>oh I could do it in the tile check maybe
16:44<frosch123>andythenorth: wouldn't that defeat the point of them being build on different height levels?
16:44<frosch123>isn't this stuff suited for firs farms?
16:44<nielsm>I haven't done much with smart positioning yet
16:45<nielsm>it just makes a range and places the sublayouts inside that
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16:45<frosch123>in the last picture, the part at the bottom is somewhat too far away, but the other 3 parts are fine
16:45<nielsm>trying to place them adjacent would be much more work :)
16:46<nielsm>yeah like, this is a single plant:
16:46<nielsm>in this case it doesn't look wrong to have a single transformer station separate
16:46<nielsm>but it could be weird with other building types
16:48<andythenorth>it would suit farms well, the fields help keep it together
16:49*andythenorth considers setting n nearby tiles to some other sprites
16:49<andythenorth>wasteland :P
16:49<andythenorth>half-brown earth would do it :P
16:49<frosch123>hmm, so a variable area of tiles, some buildings placed randomly, and the rest filled with fields for stockpile tiles
16:49<andythenorth>o_O maybe
16:53<andythenorth>I found with more in-out cargos, more room is needed for stations :)
16:53<andythenorth>which implies bigger industries
16:54<andythenorth>just the gaps are a bit confusing?
16:58*andythenorth invents giant industries
16:58<frosch123>8kx8k ?
16:59<nielsm>tried doing oilwells too:
17:02<andythenorth>yeah they're good
17:03*andythenorth wonders about defining a perimeter around industries
17:03<andythenorth>something like
17:03<andythenorth>* define a perimeter compose of tiles in an (x,y) list
17:04<andythenorth>* for each tile, iff empty, provide graphics
17:04<nielsm>I think "infill" for disjoint proclayout industries would best be handled by the industry-generated newobjects idea
17:04<andythenorth>can we build rails over objects?
17:04<nielsm>I suppose that depends on the object?
17:04<andythenorth>maybe :)
17:04<andythenorth>never made any :)
17:06<nielsm>bit 2 "anything can remove" perhaps?
17:06<nielsm>I think that means "you can build on top of it"
17:09<Samu>i want to test AIs in NewGRFs maps
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17:14<andythenorth>nielsm: farms? o_O
17:14<nielsm>they grow stuff
17:17<frosch123>if you allow building on them, they won't regenerate
17:17<andythenorth>sorry, I was mean, have you tried sublayouts farms?
17:18*andythenorth words, sense make
17:18<nielsm>in locomotion, most industries have a perimeter of bare tiles that can be built over by the player, but are placed by the industry
17:18<nielsm>I think that worked reasonably well
17:20<andythenorth>yeah that looks helpful
17:22<andythenorth>could be placed algorithmically?
17:23<nielsm>if you could set a flag on a tilelayout or the industry for "expand with perimiter objects, radius N" and then one (or perhaps multiple) newobject ids, yes
17:27<andythenorth>it doesn't need full control over field building etc
17:27<andythenorth>the only nice thing would be auto-fencing
17:28<andythenorth>rest could be random from a list? :P
17:28<Eddi|zuHause><nielsm> yeah like, this is a single plant: <-- spacing might be a little over the top?
17:28<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause we covered that :P
17:29<nielsm>yes, I haven't tried to improve the positioning yet
17:29<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> on foundations that look like piers <-- stations can have custom foundations
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17:42<andythenorth>good thoug eh nielsm :)
17:42<andythenorth>though *
17:42*andythenorth plots large steel mills
17:42<nielsm>also consider how it'll look when you build a large train station smack in the middle of the spread-out industry
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>in my experience, that space is never enough :p
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18:03<nielsm> spent way too long on this and accidentally built two stations instead of a joined
18:21<andythenorth>could surround a whole town with industry :)
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19:23*glx is testing github actions
19:24<+glx>not very optimised for now as the vcpkg steps are almost as long as building openttd itself
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20:27<Thedarkb>Hey, do you think there'll ever be an official Debian Buster build of OpenTTD?
20:27<Thedarkb>The Jessie deb relies in dependencies no longer available on Debian.
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>maybe with the next release?
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20:34<+glx>the main issue will be ICU anyway
20:36<Thedarkb>You could just link it statically.
20:38<+glx>openttd still relies on stuff from old icu version
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20:39<Eddi|zuHause>static linking doesn't solve every problem
20:40<Thedarkb>I just compiled 1.9.3 on libicu63
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20:41<Thedarkb>It seems to work on Buster's standard icu library.
20:41<+glx> is still valid
20:41<+glx>try hebrew or arabic
20:42<Thedarkb>I see what you mean.
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21:14<Kitrana2>is there anyway to just mvoe a dfepot?
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a patch for that
21:17<Kitrana2>used to be but isn;t anymore?
21:20<Kitrana2>so how does it work? do i hold control down when placing the new depot?
21:20<+glx>it works similar to stations IIRC
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>you destroy the old depot, and it leaves a grey sign for a month, like destroying a station
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21:20<Eddi|zuHause>then you place the depot and it'll keep all orders intact
21:27<Kitrana2>i think you mean stations there not depots
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>i meant exactly what i said
21:28<Kitrana2>well i just tried that and it didn;t work
21:28<Kitrana2>all the road vehicles that used that depot now have an invalid order in their list
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21:39<+glx>it's not merged yet
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21:52<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] joestringer commented on pull request #7057: Fix: A few minor compile warnings under MinGW
22:08<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] joestringer opened pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64
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22:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] joestringer updated pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64
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22:20<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] joestringer updated pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64
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22:51<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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22:56<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64
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23:01<Eddi|zuHause>if -*- is the pipe valve operator, what's the *-* operator?
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 06 00:00:45 2019