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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-10-07

---Logopened Mon Oct 07 00:00:46 2019
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04:22<Arveen>yO to you too sir
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05:46<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii updated pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
05:49<@peter1138>Oh, andy isn't here.
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09:30<supermop_work>regarding configurable end date
09:30<supermop_work>what about configurable start date
09:31<supermop_work>so you can start in july not january
09:31<supermop_work>(if you have a low snowline then you could have fames that would later get snowed in at game start?
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>same issue, we don't have useful ui for inputting dates?
09:32<supermop_work>the timetable start date UI?
09:33<supermop_work>i end up using that 10s to 100s of times per game, its certainly useable of not perfect
09:33<supermop_work>*if not
09:37<supermop_work>maguey plants in Oaxaca, Joshua trees in Joshua tree?
09:38<supermop_work>newgrf trees should be slope aware
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>the tree problem could be addressed with a shader?
09:39<supermop_work>shade tree by some amount based on slopr
09:40<supermop_work>or better slope averaged over some amount of neighbors
09:41<andythenorth>height level
09:42<supermop_work>heightlevel is good for changing forest type but not shading for contour
09:58<nielsm>we don't have any general "remap slightly briighter/darker" pallettes do we
09:58<nielsm>which probably makes that difficult
09:58<nielsm>could maybe support it on 32bpp blitters
09:59<nielsm>is there even a canonical sun position in the game?
09:59<supermop_work>but it is disobeyed in a few places in the original and ogfx sets
10:00<nielsm>hmm, SE it looks like
10:00<nielsm>maybe even ESE
10:01<nielsm>or... huh yeah
10:02<nielsm>ESE is probably most accurate
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think adhering to the one used for ground sprites should probably be advised
10:16<supermop_work>for hill recognition, following the hill shading is best and easiest
10:20<supermop_work>basically just follow "trees on the brightest slope(or average to brightest slope) are brightest. Trees on the darkest slope/average are darkest"
10:22<supermop_work>8bpp version could be "flat or bright side -> normal. dark side -> use station glass effect"
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_work: better make new tree shader remaps
10:24<@peter1138>Do we support Vulkan yet?
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>do you have a patch for that? :p
10:25<@peter1138>I may have deleted all my patches.
10:25<nielsm>trying to make a PoC with the 32bpp-simple blitter
10:25<@peter1138>(I haven't...)
10:25<@peter1138>Proof of concept.
10:25<@peter1138>We really should drop all the blitter variants and switch to modern rendering.
10:26<@peter1138>OpenGL I suppose as DirectX is a bit limiting and Vulkan may be too new?
10:27<nielsm>opengl isn't disappearing for the foreseeable future
10:27<nielsm>I don't think
10:28<@peter1138>I think it may be on OS X, actually.
10:28<@peter1138>Mac OS's new thing is Metal.
10:28<nielsm>and even then if the engine is reworked to a sprites-in-texture-atlas rendered-as-individual-quads it'd be much easier to add a different backend
10:29<nielsm>microsoft didn't manage to force OpenGL off their platform despite best efforts :)
10:29<@peter1138>Creating that atlas is kinda... meh.
10:31<nielsm>also uh wow I didn't know the rendering pipeline from "I want this sprite on the screen" to it actually being painted in the blitter involved this many steps
10:31<@peter1138>Yup. There's all that caching stuff.
10:32<nielsm>also... sprite combining? it's not like it creates a single image of the overlaid sprites is it?
10:33<nielsm>is it just a sprite sorter trick?
10:33<@peter1138>No, it just draws multiple sprites together.
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10:35<@peter1138>The real issue is the game is literally pushing pixels individually... (Probably the SSE blitters improve that but it's still all software)
10:39<@peter1138>My ancient OpenGL patch was... weird :p
10:39<@peter1138>It suffered from not using texture atlases, each sprite was an individual OpenGL texture.
10:40<@peter1138>Also everything was direct.
10:40<@peter1138>These days (since about 15-20 years ago, heh) you'd probably be using vertex buffers for chunks of terrain.
10:43<nielsm>should you perhaps even model the world in 3D in the renderer? drawing the terrain as a 3D model-ish thing, and everything else as billboards with 3D coordinates?
10:44<nielsm>and get sprite sorting that way
10:44<nielsm>hmm actually would still need to sort back to front, for alpha
10:45<@peter1138>If you use 3D geometry, that's almost automatic.
10:46<@peter1138>But when you start to delve into it you see how backwards it all is for a modern renderer.
10:47<@peter1138>You want to be notified of when things change. OpenTTD sort of... polls every tile to draw.
10:54<nielsm>hmm, like game objects owning "sprite on screen" objects maybe
10:55<nielsm>and those automatically insert/remote themselves from the draw list when the owning object is created/destroyed
10:56<nielsm>and then you get into questions about how to handle landscape and if the classic landscape array needs to be replaced
10:58<nielsm>programming is difficult when a bird insists on perching on your fingers
10:59<andythenorth>problem exists between keyboard and chair
11:00<nielsm>well, I didn't break things completely, it still draws trees
11:01<andythenorth>procedural trees!
11:01*andythenorth words
11:01<andythenorth>birds in trees :P
11:01<andythenorth>flocks of birds
11:07<nielsm>wonder how long this has been there
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's only a problem if the newgrf overrides the recolourings?
11:14<andythenorth>so....we need stations on ships
11:14<andythenorth>(look closely)
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't look like a trustworthy link
11:17<andythenorth>oh there is that yes :P
11:18<andythenorth>different path, same image
11:19<FLHerne>Doesn't ISR/DWE have those?
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's just a "flat dock"?
11:19<FLHerne>Oh, I guess it doesn't have actual docks yet, just overlapping-tiles
11:20<andythenorth>I was looking at the helipad on the ship
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's basically the same as a vehicle ferry?
11:21<andythenorth>conceptually maybe
11:21<andythenorth>moving stations? o_O
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11:25<FLHerne>Oh, right
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in case you want to add font glyphs, here is an example:
11:27<FLHerne>Ship helipads aren't used for customer cargo/passengers though, so they're not Really Needed?
11:33<andythenorth>Sadly You Are Correct
11:33<andythenorth>it would be lolz, briefly
11:33<andythenorth>imagine the routing headaches :P
11:34<andythenorth>helicopter chasing a ship
11:34<andythenorth>reminds me of a flash game I made
11:34<FLHerne>Train ferries would be a lot of fun
11:34<FLHerne>They'd make it painfully obvious how badly OTTD lacks any sense of scale, though...
11:35<FLHerne>Helicopters on ships would be the same, but not quite so bad
11:37*peter1138 is attempting to teach/train a couple of developers on version control...
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: any sane implementation of intermodal transport would likely imply that one of the two vehicles needs to be stationary :p
11:42<andythenorth>peter1138 how's it going? :)
11:54<andythenorth>nielsm: o_O
11:54<andythenorth>what rules is it applying?
11:56<nielsm>behold, the hacks:
12:00<andythenorth>it's pretty subtle eh
12:00<andythenorth>and pretty cool
12:00<nielsm>pondering whether to close #7759 and just make a PR of the "real" indproclayout patch
12:00<nielsm>which is still WIP
12:01<nielsm>yeah I actually like that tree effect a lot
12:01<nielsm>with some tweaking to the exact shading and implementation in the fast 32bpp blitters it might make a good addition
12:02<nielsm>and then a better way to pass the data along
12:02<andythenorth>unrelated: a set of pre-computed tree tiles, instead of fucking around with random
12:02<andythenorth>thereby reducing savegame sizes (allegedly)
12:03<nielsm>it would also make the world more boring to look at, more samey
12:03<nielsm>it's already very simplified
12:04<nielsm>it only stores the type and position of the first tree on a tile, and then a count of "additional trees" whose position and type are generated from the first by some series
12:07<nielsm>trees only enlarge savegames in the sense that they add "random noise" to the landscape array, thus making it compress worse with the gz/lzma/whatever algorithm
12:08<nielsm>what they really do is make the rendering slower since it's a lot of additional sprites to be considered every frame
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12:18<andythenorth>we could have them precomputed :P
12:19<andythenorth>I think 128 would be substantially above the threshold for 'this does not look random'
12:19<andythenorth>* 128 variations
12:19<supermop_work>nielsm: amazing
12:19<supermop_work>something i've been craving for 20+ years
12:20<andythenorth>but if the game is already generating a series from the first tree, isn't that effectively just pre-computed?
12:20*andythenorth puzzling
12:23<nielsm>well as far as I can tell from the landscape data there's about 11 or 12 bits worth of information about the trees on a tile
12:23<nielsm>so still somewhere around 1024-4096 combinations
12:23<nielsm>and that's across all climates
12:25<nielsm>and then there's additional combinations possible via ground (grass) growth state and such
12:27<supermop_work>how many trees fit on a tile?
12:28<andythenorth>hmm 4 climates
12:28<supermop_work>if newgrf trees, can a tree be a bush
12:28<andythenorth>but still
12:28<supermop_work>or even just a 1/4 tile worth of tall grass
12:29<nielsm>check docs/landscape.html
12:30<andythenorth>based on making FIRS industries with combinations of trees, the number to trigger 'looks random to me' isn't high
12:30<andythenorth>FIRS has a special tree generating template
12:30*andythenorth looks
12:32<andythenorth>yeah, 3 combinations
12:32<andythenorth>comprising 4 trees per tile
12:33<andythenorth>and then repositioned to suit the slope, so 16 or so slope computations
12:33<andythenorth>looks pretty random
12:35<@planetmaker><nielsm> it only stores the type and position of the first tree on a tile, and then a count of "additional trees" whose position and type are generated from the first by some series <-- just as a thought on compression:
12:35<@planetmaker>in principle the trees trees are eye-candy only (ignoring their random spawn, thus state and number per tile are state-senstitive only)
12:36<@planetmaker>so one could add randomness which is not network-sensitive (and which not necessarily need to be saved either)
12:36<nielsm>actually, the position of the tree on the tile isn't stored, I think it's determined by the tile's coordinate
12:36<@planetmaker>same could actually apply to ground tiles. Making landscape look slightly more diverse
12:36<@planetmaker>yes, but the number of trees and their growth state(s).
12:36<nielsm>there is just one growth state :P
12:37<nielsm>the remaining trees are all full grown
12:37<nielsm>which is why the first tree becomes full grown when you plant a second tree on a tile
12:37<@planetmaker>hm... one tree with growth 1-4. And then #trees 1-3(?) ?
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12:37<@planetmaker>ha, ok :)
12:46<andythenorth>3 combos of 4 trees :P ^
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12:55*peter1138 back. Slightly soggy.
12:55<@peter1138>Is it lunch time?
12:55<supermop_work>it is here
12:57<@peter1138>Good enough!
12:58<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7671: Fix #6407: Show snowy ground sprites for depots
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13:34<nielsm>tried making the brighter-at-bigger-heights effect more pronounced:
13:40<andythenorth>nice...radiosity :D
13:40<andythenorth>unrelated, we need fewer trees :P
13:41<andythenorth>I did test this, but it culled all trees from map over time
13:41<andythenorth>it wasn't amazing visually either
13:47<supermop_work>nielsm: looks good
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14:06<nielsm>giant screenshots: without = with =
14:16<andythenorth>it reveals contours a lot eh :)
14:16<@peter1138>I don't know what you've done but it looks good.
14:17<andythenorth>next pony, height-level biomes :D
14:17<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
14:17<LordAro>nielsm: i like it
14:18<LordAro>andythenorth: snow levels good enough for you? :p
14:18<supermop_work>looks great
14:18<supermop_work>ship it!
14:18<andythenorth>LordAro: maybe
14:19<@peter1138>But does it work with 8bpp? ;)
14:19<andythenorth>LordAro not so visible in temperate / tropic :P
14:19*andythenorth wonders about toyland biomes
14:19<@peter1138>What should I watch on Netflix/
14:20<andythenorth>peter1138: the reddit image you linked earlier...?
14:20<@peter1138>Ash vs Evil Dead, maybe.
14:21<@peter1138>andythenorth, someone running high res at 1x, like normal, unlike you :p
14:21<andythenorth>oh yeah
14:21<andythenorth>someone with eyes :P
14:21<andythenorth>srsly, how?
14:22<@peter1138>Maybe it's 49" screen
14:22<@peter1138>I don't think it's as high density as your screen.
14:22<andythenorth>that screen is fricking huge
14:22<@peter1138>3440x1440? It's ultrawide, certainly.
14:24<@planetmaker>hm, I like where that is going :) @ nielsm
14:24<@peter1138>I guess most things are already shaded, so it's just trees.
14:24<@planetmaker>Though I wonder whether it wouldn't make sense to make the shading depend solely on the slope
14:26<@planetmaker>he... either the server is slow with the images or they are REALLY huge
14:26<nielsm>32 and 48 MB
14:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64
14:27<andythenorth>1x on my screen :P
14:28<andythenorth>I tried to take a picture, including a beer bottle for comparison
14:28<@peter1138>13" is pretty small but that is about right.
14:28<andythenorth>but the lighting here is too poor
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14:35<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
14:37<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
14:39*firewire1394 is testing
14:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
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14:55<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
15:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
15:02<nielsm>andythenorth here's a person on the internet saying FIRS is boring:
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15:19<@planetmaker>he... I actually know that person :D
15:19<@planetmaker>didn't know he makes youtube videos now
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15:24<andythenorth>is it V? :P
15:27<@planetmaker>no. but another regular from the coop community
15:31<andythenorth>so anyone for NRT?
15:32<andythenorth>lot of work done to put it in trunk, but the NML patch has gone away to rot
15:34<@planetmaker>omg... that's a ... lengthy patch series
15:34<andythenorth>squash it
15:35<andythenorth>I can interactive rebase it and reduce the number of commits
15:35<andythenorth>but eh
15:35<@planetmaker>no, not squashing... but honestly... I could just merge it so that people can test it...
15:35<+glx>don't, you'll break it :)
15:35<andythenorth>I can't keep up with whether we want atomic commits or not :P
15:35<@planetmaker>I do want atomic, yes
15:35<andythenorth>every commit I make, someone will tell me it's too big or too small :)
15:36<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64
15:36<@planetmaker>really... like... 3 years old are those patches?
15:36<@peter1138>Have you actually all forgotten that NRT was already merged?
15:36<andythenorth>wait what, when?
15:36<+glx>it's in openttd yes
15:37<andythenorth>I don't see it
15:37<+glx>not in nml
15:37<@peter1138>Ah, the nml changes. Sorry.
15:37<andythenorth>'probably fine'
15:37<andythenorth>I'd approve them, but I'm not allowed to approve own PR
15:37<andythenorth>in the old days, we used to just commit
15:38<+glx>we still do :)
15:38<+glx>and fix 2 days later
15:38<andythenorth>oh that
15:38<@planetmaker>meh... I just commit now
15:38<andythenorth>quality :D
15:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker merged pull request #30: Support for Not Road Types
15:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker pushed 1 commits to master
15:39<DorpsGek_III> - Support for Not Road Types (#30) (by PeterN)
15:39<+glx>sometime we just miss the evident fail in the PR
15:39<+glx>2 times in the error_gui.cpp change
15:39<@planetmaker>gah... I hate that default button is "squash and merge" :|
15:39<andythenorth>super 0.5.0 :)
15:40<@planetmaker>but nice... the build of nml started automatically... so that works
15:42<nielsm>should I close that and open a new PR with the actual procedural industry layouts thing?
15:42<nielsm>(which still needs a lot of polish and perhaps extra features for layout control)
15:43<@planetmaker> <-- there we go
15:43<andythenorth>oh bundles worked :o
15:43<andythenorth>that's good
15:44<andythenorth>I'm going to add a note in this thread
15:44<@planetmaker>hm... but... windows
15:44<andythenorth>that :P
15:48<andythenorth>how does bundles even github?
15:58<@planetmaker>it's built by coop jenkins. Which just gets notification from github to build
16:07<@planetmaker>he... seems I disabled windoze builds myself... oh well... due to §$%(§ python upgrade breaking it :|
16:16<Hazzard>andythenorth: I didnt say FIRS is boring!
16:16<Hazzard>Did I hmm lemme check
16:16<andythenorth>oof planetmaker
16:19<Hazzard>Yeah, I just didn't want that much complexity for a let's play with less experienced viewers :0
16:25<Samu>there should be NewGRF packs
16:26<Samu>I never know what to download alongside firs
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16:27<Samu>something like: Download: FIRS then a list of suggestions, users that run FIRS also run *list of newgrfs
16:32<supermop_work>Samu: use whatever you want with firs
16:33<supermop_work>opengfx+ stuff works fine if you just want something like the basic vehicles. but many vehicle sets will work fine with firs
16:35<nnyby>which FIRS is the main FIRS?
16:35<supermop_work>most users seem to download all sorts of grfs so there is no meaningful way to correlate what is indicated by downloads alone
16:35<nnyby>would be nice to have like a 'date released' field in the content downloader
16:36<supermop_work>nnyby: FIRS 3 comes after FIRS 2, which comes after FIRS?
16:36<nnyby>i guess so
16:37<Samu>community ruined
16:38<andythenorth>also FIRS Extreme sucks Hazzard
16:38<andythenorth>the screenshot you showed of the cargo flow is lolz :D
16:38<andythenorth>nnyby: also which CHIPS is the main CHIPS? :P
16:38<andythenorth>there are loads of them
16:40<Samu>the list of newgrfs is daunting
16:40<Samu>if you don't know specifically which one it is, that list is useless for you
16:45<@planetmaker>Samu, but that will always be the case, whatever you do
16:46<@planetmaker>there's no foolproof way to present all available newgrfs without them being just that: many
16:46<@planetmaker>unless you start to curate the list... but that's then always a subjective choice
16:46<@planetmaker>anyone can do that. But not we as OpenTTD itself
16:48<Samu>oh, FIRS Industry Replacement Set 3 is the most up to date? I thought it was FIRS 2
16:49<Samu>why is the other ommiting Industry Replacement Set from the name
16:49<andythenorth>because I made a mistake
16:50<andythenorth>and Bananas cannot be fixed
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16:53<supermop_work>Samu: if you want a community recommendation as to what to use, that exists too where the user community is
16:54<supermop_work>on forums people post screenshots of how they play the game, and in firs thread people ask and comment about vehicle sets they use
16:55<supermop_work>on irc you can ask 'what is your favorite vehicle set to use with firs?" and get people's subjective opinions
16:55<andythenorth>I make my own private bananas
16:55<andythenorth>my grfs only :P
16:55<andythenorth>and AV9.8
16:55<andythenorth>and CHIPS objects
16:56<supermop_work>but an Official/Curated/Subjective list of grfs on the in game UI will not be 'community' based by default
16:56<supermop_work>or by nature
16:57<Samu>i want to test ais with newgrfs
16:57<andythenorth>I make an OpenTTD PP?
16:57<Samu>so hmm
16:57<andythenorth>nerf bananas filter
16:57<andythenorth>NO PIKKA GRFS
16:57<supermop_work>if you want suggestions as to what users think are good pairing, then ask the users
16:58<supermop_work>bananas can't tell you what users actually use together, nor can it tell you what combinations are actually fun
16:58<Samu>got av9.8, got firs 3.0.12
16:59<andythenorth>when is FIRS 4?
16:59<Samu>what am i missing? vehicle sets? maybe a town set?
17:00<andythenorth>OpenGFX+ Airports, always
17:00<supermop_work>i think you'll have more fun playing with at least a road vehicle set and a train set
17:01<supermop_work>you yourself will have a better idea about what you think the AIs you use would like
17:01<Samu>OpenGFX+ airports, hmm AI's have trouble handling the extra airports
17:01<Samu>but can try
17:01<supermop_work>ok well there is a data point you can use
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17:15<Samu>av9.8 doesn't have a max range ?
17:19<Samu>hmm my AI is doing better than the rest, i think im missing some town newgrf
17:21<Samu>either FIRS cargo payment is reduced compared to vanilla cargos
17:21<Samu>or the vehicle sets im using compensate passengers the most
17:39<andythenorth>FIRS probably nerfs payments dunno
17:39<andythenorth>is it bedtime?
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17:49<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries
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18:04<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] Eddi-z updated pull request #21: Eddi-nml branch for ActionC support
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>(should i have tested stuff? :p)
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>any sane way to deal with the 1 million warnings of "libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile"?
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>ok, CETS still builds for me.
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19:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7608: Codechange: Performance improvement in k-d tree FindNearest()
19:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7608: Codechange: Performance improvement in k-d tree FindNearest()
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19:20<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename
19:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7652: Fix #7635: Game crash on exit scenario editor.
19:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7652: Fix #7635: Game crash on exit scenario editor.
19:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7635: Game crash on exit scenario editor when you build or demolish infrastructure
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19:24<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7671: Fix #6407: Show snowy ground sprites for depots
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 08 00:00:47 2019