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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-10-14

---Logopened Mon Oct 14 00:00:56 2019
00:04<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SJang1 commented on issue #7769: Music sounds weird on Linux https://git.io/Je83C
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01:33<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SJang1 closed issue #7769: Music sounds weird on Linux https://git.io/Je83C
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03:27<andythenorth>o/
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03:41<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7768: The cars overlaps themselves https://git.io/Je8Y4
03:41<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7768: The cars overlaps themselves https://git.io/Je8Y4
03:42<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7767: Terrible lag, low FPS https://git.io/Je8mF
03:44<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7762: Emoji results in question mark 😀 🠚 ? https://git.io/JeCLb
03:44<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7762: Emoji results in question mark 😀 🠚 ? https://git.io/JeCLb
03:49<LordAro>feel free to reopen if anyone disagrees
04:13<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7768: The cars overlaps themselves https://git.io/Je8Y4
04:30<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sdcloudt commented on issue #7735: Protocol handler to join network games https://git.io/Jemi1
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04:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7770: Current-location indicator in orders list missing https://git.io/Je8Z9
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05:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did you discuss retiring devzone entirely yesterday or "just" migration of all repos?
05:31<qwebirc4063>!lastseen Sacro
05:31<qwebirc4063>!seen Sacrto
05:31<qwebirc4063>@seen Sacro
05:31<@DorpsGek>qwebirc4063: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 20 hours, 20 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Sacro> Nothing more, nothing less
05:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: only repos
05:31<andythenorth>I made a little list of ideas
05:32<qwebirc4063>Can anyone tell me when I went? Can't contact my server :(
05:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: seems a bit nuclear to delete all of it, versus migrating one service at a time, but I'd value your opinion :)
05:33<qwebirc4063>@logs
05:33<@DorpsGek>qwebirc4063: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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06:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, there is no plan in deleting *any* repo
06:07<@planetmaker>nor any service
06:07<@planetmaker>but migrating the repos to github is a good idea which I support. And which the 30-odd repos is a start of...
06:07<@planetmaker>tedious :)
06:08<andythenorth>services are?
06:08<@planetmaker>actually I'm just (slowy) migrating stuff to a new server
06:08<andythenorth>* repos
06:08<@planetmaker>* jenkins
06:08<andythenorth>* redmine
06:08<@planetmaker>* bundles
06:08<@planetmaker>* redmine
06:08<andythenorth>* rhodecode?
06:08<andythenorth>* webster?
06:08<@planetmaker>* rhodecode = repos
06:08<andythenorth>ok
06:08<@planetmaker>* webster
06:08<@planetmaker>* eints
06:09<andythenorth>is there an auth provider / LDAP, or is redmine doing that?
06:09<@planetmaker>there is no SSO at all
06:09<@planetmaker>redmine handles it for eints iirc
06:09<andythenorth>that was my understanding
06:10<@planetmaker>I shall also migrate the openttdcoop stuff, but that is not of much interest in this context ;)
06:11<@planetmaker>but setting repos to read-only... not sure I want to do that
06:11<@planetmaker>I've one, two somewhat hidden I use myself :P
06:12<@planetmaker>but unrelated to openttd endevours
06:12<@planetmaker>oh... service: *paste
06:15<@planetmaker>anyhow... I heard there's cake upstairs :D
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07:51<crem>Sorry for the offtopic, I have a gameplay (not development question): do you use classical signal along the route and path-based near junctions/stations, or just PBS everywhere?
07:59*andythenorth is PBS everywhere
08:00<crem>I'm avoiding PBS everywhere as it feels to me that it's more computation for my CPU. :) Probably not worth caring.
08:01<crem>And for classical+PBS approach, I feel that I do more mouseclicks than I should. Was going to ask how people do that. E.g. whether in settings you have "cycle over PBS only", etc..
08:12<crem>Reading wiki... Apparently bi-directional tracks is the new modern thing in 21st century! I'm still playing it like it was original TTD (almost).
08:12<andythenorth>the optimum throughput is one line per train :P
08:13<andythenorth>not optimum for use of map tiles though :P
08:13<crem>Well, I optimize for neither, mostly for "player time" or "player fun". :)
08:14<crem>For me large networks are more fun than small but well performing nets.
08:14<andythenorth>I build horrors
08:14<crem>Also I think I prefer realism over efficiency.
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09:23<FLHerne>crem: I use block signals everywhere, and path only near junctions
09:23<FLHerne>Mostly for aesthetics; I'm sure there's /some/ performance difference but it certainly isn't significant
09:24<FLHerne>Building signals, I have the 2-way path signal selected most of the time; then I can ctrl-click after building to cycle to 1-way or block
09:26<crem>FLHerne: You have 2-way block (ordinary) signal selected, right? And you have enabled them all for cycling through? (e.g. it's like 5 ctrl+clicks to get from ordinary signal to path-based).
09:27<FLHerne>crem: Right, but no-one cares about the weird block types except for prio or other niche uses
09:27<FLHerne>So it's only ever one or two clicks
09:28<FLHerne>crem: Er, sorry, wrong
09:28<FLHerne>crem: 2-way /path/ selected normally
09:28<crem>Yeah, but sequence is block-entry-exit-combo-path-onewaypath. To get from block to path you have to click 4 times :)
09:28<FLHerne>So it's 2-way path -> 1-way path -> plain block
09:28<crem>Ah, 2way path! Ok, will try that.
09:29*FLHerne needs to skimread less :P
09:29<crem>I tried to disabling cycling through block signals (there is a setting for it), but then I cannot convert back from path to ordinary if I want to. I found no way at all, rather than remove and place again.
09:29<FLHerne>I assume you know you can ctrl-drag to build continuous signals?
09:30<FLHerne>So the vast majority of my signals are plain block ones, but I don't actually place very many
09:30<crem>yes, I think I could do that even in initial TTD
09:31<crem>Yeah, but building signals around stations still involve lots of clicking and ctrl+clicking. But I had block signals by default, maybe with two-way path it's easier.
09:32<crem>If I could also drag over turning road.. :)
09:32<FLHerne>crem: Almost certainly; block signals are always the right things in stations ;-)
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09:56<andythenorth>FLHerne adjunct to Horse comments, which is your favourite train grf?
10:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: UKRS2, no question ;-)
10:00<FLHerne>I love the small loading gauge
10:01<FLHerne>Makes the proportions much better, and they don't dwarf houses in such a silly way
10:01<FLHerne>[and everything I said yesterday]
10:04<crem>i've just read coopwiki, "While you are dragging it a little bit press the CTRL button and release it.".. It turned out I didn't know I could ctrl+drag! I knew I could drag, but not ctrl+drag!
10:04<crem>That's why I complained about turning road!
10:08<FLHerne>crem: Oh, wow, I never realised you can non-ctrl-drag :D
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10:13<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9515/UKRS2-Horse.png
10:14<andythenorth>Horse is more plastic, and doesn't bother with left-to-right shading
10:17<FLHerne>Interesting comparison
10:17<@planetmaker>btw, @crem: gameplay questions are NOT off-topic here :)
10:17<FLHerne>I think the difference is much bigger with steam locos
10:18<FLHerne>Most Horse ones look to me like a cylinder with widgets glued on
10:19<FLHerne>The tank engines and other small ones are better
10:20<andythenorth>I spent about 18 months drawing the diesels and railcars
10:20<andythenorth>most of the steam engines were done in July :P
10:20<andythenorth>I have a suspicion that they look under-loved
10:20<andythenorth>https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html
10:21<andythenorth>UKRS 2 steamers look more complete + cohesive
10:21<andythenorth>Horse 2 ones look more like https://www.steinelager.de/img/sets/1/0/1/9/4/10194-1_0.jpg
10:22<FLHerne>Oh, and Horse's high-contrast fixed coupling rods irrationally bug me
10:22<andythenorth>that's interesting
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10:23<FLHerne>Either animate them (not worth it) or let them blend in like UKRS's do
10:23<FLHerne>Locomotives sliding along look silly
10:24<andythenorth>reminds me of http://thomasthetrain.net/images/ertl-thomas.jpg
10:24<FLHerne>I think I said yesterday about Horse vehicles looking very 'kitbuilt' in general, and the steam locos are definitely at the top there
10:25<andythenorth>they are very much cut-paste
10:25<andythenorth>I spent about as much time drawing these sliding wall vans as I did steamers https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#sliding_wall_car_pony_gen_4B
10:25<FLHerne>Ah, that image is perfect :D
10:26<andythenorth>the cut and shut was quite inspired by https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82465-corbs-cobbling-electric-dreams/
10:26<andythenorth>^ the lolz in that story is that it turns out Corbs is someone I've worked with for years
10:27<andythenorth>parallel interests :P
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10:46<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9516/UKRS2-Horse-2.png
10:46<andythenorth>pikka has better wheels
10:47<andythenorth>and the trains aren't compressed to fit the length scale
10:47<andythenorth>so they look more natural
10:47<andythenorth>and pikka hasn't added the constraint of including 2CC on every train
10:50*andythenorth making notes for future
10:55<crem>Another offtopic question. :) I'm never sure how many bus stations do I need per town. Is it just one, or a bunch of them for realism? E.g. is there any reason to transport passengers from one to another part of the same city?
10:56<FLHerne>In 'specific detail complaints', the Horse domes look like they're somehow hovering in front of the boiler
10:57<nielsm>crem: that's an on-topic question
10:57<FLHerne>crem: Towns grow faster with more stations (up to 4, 5, or something), and if you move more passengers
10:57<nielsm>as far as town growth is concerned, anything past four active stations gives no additional bonus
10:57<nielsm>and in this context, active station means "someone attempted picking up cargo recently"
10:58<FLHerne>crem: Passenger production is based on houses in the catchment, so more stations usually means more passengers
10:58<FLHerne>(although you can 'cheat' with station-joining)
10:58<nielsm>a station only receiving deliveries does not count as active
10:58<crem>Ok, thanks. But it's still not that profitable because buses are slow and distances are short, right?
10:59<crem>No need to do buses except for fun/realism, kind of.
10:59<nielsm>yes you should have at least six tiles (manhattan distance) between bus stops if you want to run buses for profit
10:59<FLHerne>crem: Depends. If you have cargodist on, or set up transfers manually, bus passengers can go long-distance
10:59<andythenorth>yeah the Horse domes look like they were just pasted on :P
11:00<andythenorth>the reason for that is that they were just pasted on :P
11:00<FLHerne>crem: The silly profit-focussed method is to have buses pickup-only, and then transfer to high-speed trains when full
11:00<crem>If I have transfer order, cargo won't be "accepted" even if station accepts it, right?
11:00*andythenorth needs to declare lesser enthusiasm for kettles compared to diesels
11:00<FLHerne>But I find that playing OTTD for profit is no fun anyway
11:00<nielsm>if your order is specifically "transfer" then yes
11:00<andythenorth>still, feedback drives quality, eh?
11:00<nielsm>the cargo is unloaded and left waiting at the station
11:00<FLHerne>The economics are silly, and it's trivial to make more money than you can feasibly spend
11:00<crem>Yeah, money start to be non-issue after like 30 minutes of play anyway.
11:01<FLHerne>Unless you've changed costs in some drastic way
11:01<andythenorth>buses are mostly to keep ratings up :P
11:01<FLHerne>crem: Have you discovered cargo distribution yet?
11:01<FLHerne>Definitely turn that on for passengers/mail
11:01<crem>Cargo distribution?..
11:01<FLHerne>It's a lot more fun
11:01<FLHerne>Makes them want to go to a specific place, not just 'the next station'
11:02<crem>Ah, more realism, that would be fun! But I guess I cannot do the for existing map, right?
11:02<FLHerne>So bus passengers will automagically decide they want to catch the bus to the airport, fly somewhere, then take the train to their destination
11:02<FLHerne>I'm pretty sure you can change the setting in-game
11:02<crem>Is it a built-in feature or a mod/newgrx/plugin/however-you-call-it
11:02<FLHerne>Feature
11:03<crem>That's good! Maybe it may make planes fun.
11:03<FLHerne>(technically, it's implemented in an aggregate way rather than tracking each individual passenger, but the effect is the same)
11:03<nielsm>FLHerne: it works on a per-cargo-packet basis and a cargo packet can technically be as small as a single unit :)
11:04<crem>It was introduced in 1.4... So PBS was 0.7, cargodist in 1.4, next nice feature in 2.1 then .:)
11:10<andythenorth>lol the number of variations for just one small diesel https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/graphics/pony/kelpie.png
11:10<andythenorth>steam engine...fewer https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/graphics/pony/braf.png
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11:23<supermop_work>something is wrong with this workstation where i regularly have to restart it
11:25<nielsm>just like a train station is where the train stops, a workstation is where work stops
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11:29<supermop_work>indeed
11:31<supermop_work>andythenorth: last night i got an almost complete steeltown game
11:31<supermop_work>85-92 ish
11:31<andythenorth>o_O
11:31<andythenorth>v3 steeltown?
11:31<supermop_work>256x256 desert map, only one of each industry
11:32<supermop_work>making decent amt of vehicles without any quicklime
11:33<supermop_work>quicklime route is planned but keep procrastinating bc kiln is far out of the way and can't decide which of two spots to fund one
11:37<andythenorth>SCREENSHOTS!
11:37<andythenorth>FORUMS!
11:37<andythenorth>:)
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12:54<supermop_work>sure when i get home
12:55<supermop_work>accidentally had not up to date horse load
12:55<supermop_work>so no cargo shown on flatbeds
12:57<andythenorth>oof
12:57<andythenorth>those with newgrf dev tools
12:57<andythenorth>overcome such issues :D
12:58<andythenorth>give or take what min. compatible version does
12:58<andythenorth>and breaking stuff
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13:21<spnda>Where can I find documentation of Road and Tram types?
13:21<spnda>For NML
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13:21<nielsm>I'm not sure if it's properly finished
13:22<nielsm>but try this: https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes
13:22<spnda>thanks
13:22<nielsm>"someone" will need to merge it into the newgrf wiki soon
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14:08<crem>Do you know how can I spectate public openttdcoop server? It needs password. Their wiki says to get password in their IRC, but their IRC is also password protected!
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14:10<andythenorth_>nielsm fwiw https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/46
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14:11*andythenorth_ planning a holiday from making grfs :p
14:11<Wolf01>To make what else? :)
14:11<andythenorth_>grf making tools instead
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14:13<andythenorth>anyone here actually use nml? o_O
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14:18<andythenorth>bye bye andythenorth_
14:21<V453000>crem: you need to join #openttrcoop IRC channel
14:21<V453000>you should be able to type /join #openttdcoop in here
14:21<andythenorth>V :o
14:21<V453000>hi :)
14:21<andythenorth>yo
14:21<V453000>how'z you?
14:21<andythenorth>all family all day long V?
14:22<andythenorth>babies, animals, bills?
14:22<V453000>eh, work then family, repeat :)
14:22<crem>Ah, so it's not on openttdcoop.org server! (there is a server!)
14:22<andythenorth>do you do the morning family stuff?
14:22<andythenorth>used to kill me
14:22<andythenorth>still does some days
14:22<V453000>eh, half. I take the older one to kindergarten, younger one is home with wife
14:23<andythenorth>I stay up late like a dumbass
14:23<V453000>it's not too bad considering there is nobody at work pointing at the clock whether I come at 08:00 or 08:30
14:23<andythenorth>then the kids wake me up :P
14:23<V453000>I kind of got used to going to sleep quite early
14:23<andythenorth>me too
14:23<andythenorth>except some days, I'm like 'nah, live'
14:24<V453000>but then we barely sleep these days at night, the two get in a deadlock state of waking up each other :D
14:24<andythenorth>ouch
14:24<V453000>but well :) I'm busy as fuck at work too, but today I'm actually playing openttd
14:24<andythenorth>my 9 year old was mad this morning because the 7 year old didn't wake him up
14:24<andythenorth>so he 'missed out' on some ipad time
14:24<V453000>:D
14:24<V453000>nice
14:25<andythenorth>now I am waiting to pick them up from lazer quest
14:25<andythenorth>I am in a van, 11 floors above the city
14:25<andythenorth>in the rain
14:25<andythenorth>glamour
14:26<V453000>:0 I'm not going to ask how does a fucking van get 11 floors up :D
14:26<andythenorth>car park innit :P
14:26<V453000>is there a car lift or did you actually climb up 11 floors?
14:27<andythenorth>ramps
14:28<andythenorth>such game https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9518/FIRS_4_game_1.png
14:28<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9517/FIRS_4_game_2.png
14:28<andythenorth>so optimal junctions
14:28<andythenorth>very train
14:28<V453000>dam
14:31<andythenorth>I really really really miss flash https://www.wired.co.uk/article/history-of-macromedia-flash
14:31<andythenorth>obviously it was buggy malware
14:32<andythenorth>but as a creative tool, nothing has ever come close
14:32<andythenorth>there is literally no tool on iOS or mac that my kids can use to learn to animate
14:32<V453000>yeah, our art director had some good time with flash too
14:33<andythenorth>it was a brilliant tool
14:33*andythenorth considers dropping everything
14:33<andythenorth>and building svg tool, but like flash
14:33<andythenorth>oof I should go and get these children
14:33<andythenorth>we can admire my openttd game more later
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14:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>hello quick question for linux, if I include the shared libs in the game folder when trying to create a portable version
14:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Would that work?
14:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Where will OpenTTD look for the shared libs?
14:49<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>in $PATH
14:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>or it will also look for them inside the folder where the binary is located?
14:50<nielsm>depends on the system configuration
14:50<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>aight
14:50<nielsm>or whether there are some flags for the dynamic loader set
14:50<nielsm>you can probably make a shell script that will configure the dynamic loader so it works for most systems
14:51<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Okay
14:51<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Another question
14:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I compiled using ./configure --with-libtimidity="pkg-config libtimidity" --with-midi=timidity
14:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>But the ldd still tells me I need fluidsynth
14:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>how's that?
14:52<nielsm>try adding --without-fluidsynth to force it disabled
14:52<nielsm>otherwise it'll autodetect
14:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Ah, quite a detail
14:52<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Didn't see that
14:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>sorry nielsm but there's no such a configure option called "without-fluidsynth"
14:54<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>at least not stated in "./configure --help"
14:55<nielsm>it exists but is implicit
14:55<LordAro>it's not listed
14:55<LordAro>well, not explicitly
14:55<nielsm>all --with-x have a corresponding --without-x
14:55<nielsm>and all --enable-x have a corresponding --disable-x
14:55<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>okay. I would suggest correcting that because it's really not that obvious
14:56<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I will try that now.
14:56<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Thanks
14:56<LordAro>the whole script will be going away "soon"
14:56<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Alright
14:56<nielsm>so will Cmake be before or after 1.10?
14:57<LordAro>depends if we actually release 1.10 "early"
14:57<LordAro>at this rate, it's not looking likely
14:57<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Is there a roadmap?
14:57<LordAro>there's a few things milestoned on github
14:58<LordAro>which may or may not be correct
14:58<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>haha okay
14:58<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>How do you check "milestones" on github, just curious
14:58<milek7>note that libtimidity support is missing in master
14:58<nielsm>the 1.10 milestone is to a large part just me going over tickets and PRs and picking things that look likely/"really ought to get fixed" for the release
14:59<milek7>and broken in release
14:59<LordAro>mm
14:59<LordAro>almost no one needs libtimidity anyway
14:59<LordAro>unless your name is milek7
14:59<LordAro>;)
15:00<milek7>eh, i think there was somebody else asking about it ;)
15:01<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>It was me hahaha
15:01<+glx>libtimidity is not available in "major" linux distro IIRC
15:02<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>But I albeit admit that I thought I needed it because the music didn't work
15:02<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>poor easyos.
15:03<milek7>fluidsynth is better, but the problem is that it depends on kitchensink and glib
15:03<LordAro>glx: that's why it was removed
15:03<+glx>I think libtimidity was added for some portable device unable to use ext-midi
15:03<nielsm>yeah, PSP port
15:03<supermop_work>so i've been hearing a lot about this goose game
15:05<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Try it
15:05<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>Honk
15:05<+glx>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: and for a portable install it's probably easier to compile statically
15:06<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>I think LordAro said that static works for windows only?
15:07<+glx>for dependencies it's ok on linux
15:07<+glx>IIRC
15:07<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>"<planetmaker> he... WARNING: static is only known to work on Windows, DOS, and MacOSX"
15:08<+glx>we used to provide static linux builds
15:08<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>alright glx i'll stry
15:08<frenchiveruti_EasyOS>try*
15:13<LordAro>frenchiveruti_EasyOS: it's only tested on those platforms (well, not DOS)
15:14<LordAro>at some point someone will get around to automating a linux build again
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15:39<andythenorth>"Back in 2007, you could be making Flash games and actually be making a living," remembers Newgrounds founder Tom Fulp, when asked about Flash's golden age. "That was a really fun time, because that's kind of what everyone's dream is: to make the games you want and be able to make a living off it."
15:39<andythenorth>too true
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16:40<supermop_work>should i buy a switch just for this goose game?
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16:43<nnyby>i have a switch. i cant figure out how much the goose game costs. is it free?
16:44<nnyby>oh, looks like it's around $15. most mainstream switch games are really expensive
16:45<nnyby>this game looks like it would be fun for about 10 minutes. but what do i know.
16:46<andythenorth>supermop_work: the goose game has found favour with my friends
16:46<andythenorth>HONK
16:46<andythenorth>but you can get it on PC no?
16:50<super_spooky>not yet
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17:03<supermop_work>website claims pc
17:03<supermop_work>but like i don't have a switch
17:03<nielsm>spammer on the forums, everywhere on the forums
17:03<supermop_work>maybe i should get one just for the goose game
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17:08<super_spooky>oh I must be mistaken, hasn't been released on steam: "Planned Release Date: Late 2020 on Steam"
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17:11<supermop_work>late 2020?
17:12<supermop_work>it's going to take a year?
17:19<super_spooky>they don't like money?
18:03<firewire1394>hi
18:04<firewire1394>good night
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18:48<supermop_work>damn this thing is still $300?
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23:41<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bryan-lunt commented on issue #7623: Support for macOS Catalina. https://git.io/fj2uh
---Logclosed Tue Oct 15 00:00:57 2019