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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-10-17

---Logopened Thu Oct 17 00:00:00 2019
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02:35<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards https://git.io/Je4Wq
02:51<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 commented on issue #7774: Notify button https://git.io/Je4Wi
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02:56<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards https://git.io/Je4Wq
02:59<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards https://git.io/Je4Wq
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04:38<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7775: Omit button https://git.io/Je422
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06:04<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7776: Go To Depot default https://git.io/Je4ab
06:05<LordAro>should probably tell him we're not huge fans of suggestions on the bug tracker...
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06:12<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards https://git.io/Je4Wq
06:14<LordAro>"worn out three mouses this week already!"
06:14<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7776: Go To Depot default https://git.io/Je4ab
06:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards https://git.io/Je4Wq
06:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards https://git.io/Je4Wq
06:18<@peter1138>If you have a category for suggestions you can easily ignore them :p
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06:26<LordAro>peter1138: but andythenorth will come along and close them anyway
06:28<@peter1138>:-)
06:32<andythenorth>too true
06:32<andythenorth>did anyone fix the October dev blog post yet?
06:33<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pull/103
07:42<LordAro>did you?
07:43*LordAro hasn't even looked at it yet
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08:31<@planetmaker>many comments by Xaroth it seems
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09:47<andythenorth>yo
09:51<nielsm>yoyoyoyo
09:53<@peter1138>Is it lunch?
09:53<@peter1138>I hope not cos I already ate mine.
09:53<andythenorth>same
10:03<@peter1138>Maybe it's fifteenses?
10:03<@peter1138>I wonder if there's any stale old cakes left from last Friday.
10:04<andythenorth>or oranges
10:04<andythenorth>oranges are always valid
10:04<@peter1138>I have a satsuma, so yeah.
10:04<andythenorth>citrus is nearly always valid
10:04<@peter1138>Nearly.
10:04<andythenorth>although easting solitary limes is challenging
10:04<andythenorth>eating *
10:05<@peter1138>Grapefruits tend to be quite big and so have quite a lot of sugar content.
10:06<andythenorth>didn't consider grapefruit
10:06<andythenorth>oops
10:06<andythenorth>how do I get satsumas after brexit?
10:06<andythenorth>they all come from Spain
10:08<@peter1138>You'll still get them from Spain.
10:09<@peter1138>They might end up costing more though.
10:09<andythenorth>that's disappointingly undramatic
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>is brexit still happening?
10:09<andythenorth>emoji
10:10<andythenorth>someone fixed that dev blog post?
10:10<andythenorth>I can't be bothered :P
10:10<andythenorth>the review notes are longer than the post
10:10<andythenorth>they're probably accurate, but eh
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's a good thing, right?
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>means people actually care :p
10:11<andythenorth>dunno, we apparently want more posts
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10:49<Xaroth>andythenorth: yeah, I looked at your oct post :)
10:49<andythenorth>can we just edit directly in PRs? :P
10:50<Xaroth>I can't :P
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for the website, that's how we usually did it. there's an edit button on github
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10:58<andythenorth>oh so if we approve & merge, anyone can edit directly in the openttd repo?
10:58<andythenorth>would be better
10:58<andythenorth>I can't merge website stuff, as a CMD, it's quite laborious eh
10:58<andythenorth>CMS *
11:01<LordAro>andythenorth: i believe the general thought was that anyone who wants edit access can get edit access
11:01<LordAro>but it does have to be manually added
11:02<andythenorth>I can approve, but not merge afaict
11:02<andythenorth>I am totally unclear who can merge, and I don't like bothering people to ask
11:03<andythenorth>so it's quite a disincentive to actually doing anything
11:03<LordAro>feel free to bother me about it
11:04<andythenorth>ok
11:04<andythenorth>can you merge that October dev post, so others can edit in place?
11:05<andythenorth>round trip via my fork is daft, in hindsight
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause2>andythenorth: i think there are more steps involved between merging and actually publishing, so it makes sense that that kind of work is restricted to fewer people
11:11<andythenorth>afaik, it's just cutting a tag, and waiting to see if the magic magicked
11:14<andythenorth>I'll see what Truebrain thinks next time he shows
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11:24<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Je4Pq
11:24<DorpsGek_III> - Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9 (by andythenorth)
11:24<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9 https://git.io/Je489
11:24<andythenorth>ta
11:24<andythenorth>there are some great screenshots on reddit, if anyone wanted to ask the authors
11:25<andythenorth>or I could crack and get a reddit account :P
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11:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro opened pull request #104: Change: Don't push push notifications to IRC https://git.io/Je4PG
11:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #94: Monthly dev post for August 2019 https://git.io/Je4PZ
11:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro closed pull request #94: Monthly dev post for August 2019 https://git.io/fjXEu
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11:28<LordAro>oh i see
11:28<LordAro>normally the monthly-dev-post branch is open to all, but andythenorth's PR is obviously on his fork, so...
11:28<andythenorth>yeah I thought I was doing it right, but I was wrong
11:28<LordAro>it was close
11:29<andythenorth>my local fork has jekyll running, so it made it easy to test
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes right is wrong
11:38<LordAro>sometimes wrong is right
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes wrong is wrong
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>but almost never is right actually right
11:50<@peter1138>Sometimes it's nearly home time.
11:50<andythenorth>spoken like a UI designer Eddi|zuHause :P
11:51<andythenorth>nothing is ever right, it's just progressively less wrong
11:51<andythenorth>UI tends to this horrible mediocrity of 'least worst'
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>and sometimes it's fractally wrong
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's wrong all the way down
11:51<andythenorth>peter1138: home time!
11:51<@peter1138>9 minutes. Should I have a quick "pick me up" before I go?
11:52<andythenorth>is it brandy?
11:54<andythenorth>do I play OpenTTD wrong? :P
11:54<andythenorth>I don't build nice cities like this https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=207361
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
11:55<@peter1138>Nah, I don't have brandy laying about the office.
11:55<@peter1138>Biscoff biscuit.
11:57<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7777: Conditional orders https://git.io/Je4Py
11:57<andythenorth>this one should be included https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/dfw9ay/bustling_steel_mill_and_goods_terminal_in_the/
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>why do i still do this? https://www.twitch.tv/eddijk
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause2>also, why does my internet disappear the moment i go online? :p
12:20<andythenorth>heisen-something
12:21<Eddi|zuHause2>and OBS doesn't seem to want to stop the stream
12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>should be running again now
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12:24<nielsm>that's a boring ticket #7777
12:25<Eddi|zuHause2>what a waste of a schnapszahl
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12:26<andythenorth>why are conditional orders?
12:26*andythenorth wonders about a patchpack
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>conditional orders are a feature solely to confuse cargodist
12:30<andythenorth>what problem are they solving?
12:30*andythenorth declares an empathy problem for some features :P
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13:37<andythenorth>so which is wrong?
13:37<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/README.md#30-supported-platforms
13:38<andythenorth>https://www.openttd.org/about.html
13:38<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Readme.txt
13:39<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/System_Requirements
13:39<nielsm>the readme is more correct and less precise
13:39<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Operating_system
13:41*andythenorth lolz at running OpenTTD on old macs
13:41<andythenorth>the minimum spec given for Mac is the first Mac I owned
13:42<frosch123>all info is correct for *some* version of ottd :)
13:43*andythenorth fixes a few wiki pages
13:44<nielsm>I'd say that windows earlier than XP are definitely no longer supported as of 1.9
13:44<nielsm>and XP is not officially supported either
13:45<nielsm>(XP is in the "if it works it's unintentional" category)
13:45<nielsm>macos, I have no idea about :D
13:45<nielsm>10.8 or something?
13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Je4Mn
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:48<andythenorth>n-2
13:48<andythenorth>same as Apple
13:49<andythenorth>I would like to burn the About page on the website with fire
13:50<frosch123>it has been copy&pasted into dozen of game reviews
13:51<frosch123>if you find that list in a review, you can directly conclude on the quality of the text
13:54<frosch123>maybe all headers on the homepage should redirect to a google search about it
13:54<frosch123>"about" -> lgtfy "what is openttd about"
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13:54<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About' https://git.io/Je4M4
13:56<+glx>andythenorth: you included the screenshots
13:56<andythenorth>oh FFS :)
13:56<andythenorth>I will fix
13:56<+glx>rebase and force push
13:56<andythenorth>yes
13:56<andythenorth>I forget that I have to drop commits from a branch
13:56<andythenorth>so workflow
13:57<+glx>no you don't have to, you just need to branch from the right place :)
13:57<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About' https://git.io/Je4M4
13:57<andythenorth>this is so inverse to the workflow we have at work :|
13:57<+glx>if you branch from a branch they will have the same base
13:57<andythenorth>maintaining two different habits in one tool is brainache
13:58<andythenorth>anyway, fixed
13:59<+glx>for my action testing I just branched from master to create the first version, then branched from the branch to clone and modify and get a second version
14:01<andythenorth>I am just going to make feature branches only for website
14:01<andythenorth>the problem comes when my master diverges from upstream
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14:17<andythenorth>TB thought the README.md should be restructured to move the developer stuff into docs/README.md
14:17*andythenorth looks at that
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not fond of the idea to hide information in so many layers
14:18<andythenorth>I wondered
14:18<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/README.md
14:18<frosch123>there also could be a CONTRIBUTORS.md
14:18<andythenorth>my worry is that it's not maintainted
14:18<andythenorth>there's https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
14:18<frosch123>and some script to parse a known commit history to extract all the patchers
14:19<nielsm>README, COMPILING, CONTRIBUTING
14:19<nielsm>and perhaps some more
14:19<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pse7a5gpi/gpqqsh/raw
14:21<andythenorth>couple of these look aged? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/tree/master/docs
14:23<andythenorth>maybe just the OS/2 one :D
14:23<andythenorth>when does changelog in master get backported? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/changelog.txt
14:24<andythenorth>1.9.1 and friends are missing :)
14:24<nielsm>when someone does it
14:24<frosch123>before 1.10
14:24<nielsm>there is an open PR to forward port the changelog
14:24<frosch123>i think it's even in the 1.10-beta pr
14:24<nielsm>it is
14:24<andythenorth>should all .txt files be .md, or is that pointless change?
14:24*andythenorth not looking for work, just a tidy house
14:25<nielsm>nah
14:27<andythenorth>eh README is pretty good, no? Just the compiling section needs split out?
14:27<andythenorth>rest seems fine, for now
14:27<andythenorth>the team list is aging
14:34<LordAro>it probably does need a bit of an update
14:46<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
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14:50<+glx>hmm I fear a conflict in cmake branch
14:51<@peter1138>Merge it anyway
14:51<+glx>better wait for 1.10 branching I think
14:54<andythenorth>I want to write words for legacy support somewhere
14:54<andythenorth>I think last time we talked it was something like:
14:54<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DQ
14:55<andythenorth>"we'll keep support going on old platforms as long as someone is interested, except if it means the project can't move forward with language and compiler features"
14:55<andythenorth>TL;DR "We'll do our best, except where it becomes impractical"
14:55<LordAro>sounds good
14:55<andythenorth>and Apple users get n-2
14:55<andythenorth>and should accept that they bought an Apple ideology
14:56<LordAro>"anything that's still supported by its vendor"
14:56<LordAro>"unless it's RHEL"
14:56<+glx>andythenorth: the commit prefix should be Doc: not Docs:
14:56<andythenorth>oops
14:57*andythenorth wonders if CONTRIBUTING links to README for compiling also
14:57<andythenorth>hmm
14:57<+glx>(and I hate having to navigate really deep just to see the output of commit checker)
14:58<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
14:59<LordAro>something something GH Actions
14:59<andythenorth>how I used git for so long without learning rebase -i :P
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>if you're not using rebase, might as well use hg :p
14:59<LordAro>or svn
14:59<+glx>I love rebase -i, you can even duplicate commits to split them
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there a different tool to split commits?
15:00<frosch123>mercurial queues :p
15:00<andythenorth>sometimes I'm tempted to use rebase -i at work to hide my mistakes :P
15:00<andythenorth>but force push is banned
15:01<+glx>do it in a branch
15:01<LordAro>it's fine as long as it's not been pushed anywhere
15:01<LordAro>it's a bit silly if force push is banned globally
15:02*andythenorth wonders how to do a relative link from README.md to COMPILING.md :P
15:02<+glx>I can understand force push ban on master
15:02<LordAro>yeah
15:03<LordAro>andythenorth: [./COMPILING.md](foobar) i think?
15:03<andythenorth>nielsm: honestly I might leave a compiling link out of README, can't see a good place for it
15:03<+glx>and of course not force pushing on something you know you're not the only one concerned
15:03<+glx>unless you ask before
15:03<andythenorth>we have asynchronous collaboration on the same branch
15:03<andythenorth>and email is deprecated
15:03<andythenorth>and we have remote workers :P
15:03<LordAro>yeah, use your own branch then :p
15:03<andythenorth>so post-its on monitors also don't solve that
15:04<LordAro>(or before pushing)
15:04<nielsm>andythenorth: just add two lines in the About section, one referencing the Compiling file and one referencing Contributing
15:05<andythenorth>ha ha
15:05<andythenorth>check the README
15:05<andythenorth>where does it say you can get binaries from? :)
15:05<LordAro>should be somewhere :p
15:05<andythenorth>$somewhere
15:06<andythenorth>I'll make about 3 sections
15:06<andythenorth>1.1 Download 1.2 Compiling 1.3 Contributing
15:06<andythenorth>why is Contact and Reporting Desyncs higher priority than Installing?
15:07<andythenorth>not exactly confidence inspiring :P
15:07<andythenorth>let's make this better
15:15<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
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15:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
15:17<andythenorth>^ fixed
15:17<andythenorth>nielsm or LordAro could you check and approve that?
15:17<andythenorth>I want to restructure the readme quite a lot, but in a different PR for separation of concerns
15:19<LordAro>andythenorth: i'd probably get rid of the contents table from COMPILING, tbh
15:19<nielsm>make the FSF folks happy and make one section for GNU/Linux, and another for FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, other unices
15:19<nielsm>and put them in that order
15:19<LordAro>heh
15:20<andythenorth>what is Haiku even? :P
15:20<nielsm>but don't put "unix" with "linux"
15:20<andythenorth>oof
15:20<nielsm>strictly, *BSD systems are unix, while GNU's Not Unix
15:21<andythenorth>ToC definitely redundant?
15:21<nielsm>yeah
15:21<andythenorth>I was 50:50 on it, page isn't big
15:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
15:22<andythenorth>hmm needs more edit
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15:22<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
15:23<andythenorth>that's better
15:23<nielsm>"Run ./configure to prepare the build system. Run ./configure --help to see the available options." \n "After configuring, run make (or gmake if your default make is not GNU compatible) to build, run make install to install the the configured location.
15:23<+glx>Haiku is the new BeOS
15:23<andythenorth>I'm happy to let other folks edit specific platform stuff
15:23<andythenorth>I'd rather spend time on README
15:24<andythenorth>not sure if this is still useful? :) https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/master/docs/Readme_OS2.txt
15:24<nielsm>these can be downloaded from the Files section at http://sourceforge.net/projects/openttd/
15:24<nielsm>wow
15:24<LordAro>haha
15:25<LordAro>yeah, i think that can go
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15:29<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7779: Doc: drop Readme_OS2, it has aged, let it go gracefully https://git.io/Je4yg
15:29<andythenorth>should this just be in COMPILING.md? https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/split-out-compiling-instructions/docs/Readme_Windows_MSVC.md
15:30<LordAro>bits and pieces could probably go in there, yeah
15:30<LordAro>or maybe it should just be on the wiki
15:30<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7779: Doc: drop Readme_OS2, it has aged, let it go gracefully https://git.io/Je4yw
15:32<andythenorth>well 1 section at a time: Supported Compilers is a dupe with COMPILING.md
15:32<+glx>maybe just merge MSVC.md in COMPILING.md
15:33<+glx>would make sense
15:33<andythenorth>+1
15:33<+glx>it was like that to not overload README I think
15:33<andythenorth>yes
15:33<andythenorth>totally made sense
15:35<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7771: Add: UDP query of game script https://git.io/Je4y6
15:36<andythenorth>there are some useful wiki pages for compiling, I'm linking them
15:38<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
15:39<+glx>andythenorth: you changed to Docs again ;)
15:39<andythenorth>ha ha
15:39<andythenorth>I am doing commit --amend, oops
15:40<andythenorth>using up-cursor in shell :P
15:40<+glx>commit --amend doesn't change the commit message
15:40<andythenorth>it does if I remember to amend it?
15:40<andythenorth>instead of reusing the old one
15:40<+glx>it does if you edit the file yes
15:41<andythenorth>this url does not work in GH markdown https://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_(GNU/)Linux_and_*BSD
15:41<andythenorth>the brackets fuck it
15:41<+glx>for me it opens an editor
15:41<LordAro>heh
15:41<+glx>there should be a %something for that
15:41<andythenorth>I'll used this page instead, life is short https://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Compiling_OpenTTD
15:41<LordAro>https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/13501/links-to-urls-containing-parentheses
15:42<+glx>and my previous remark was about --amend
15:42<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
15:45<andythenorth>ok I am hoping that's good to go?
15:45<andythenorth>I'd like to consolidate docs/Readme_Windows_MSVC.md separately
15:46<LordAro>i wouldn't mind that being in the same PR
15:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7779: Doc: drop Readme_OS2, it has aged, let it go gracefully https://git.io/Je4yg
15:47<milek7>https://i.imgur.com/FlFfLe2.png
15:48<LordAro>milek7: ...Haiku?
15:48<milek7>yes
15:49<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4Se
15:49<Wolf01>Nice, it looks like OTTD running on OTTD :D
15:50<LordAro>milek7: nice
15:54<andythenorth>I did wonder
15:55<andythenorth>cos *BSD is Unix afaik
15:56<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
15:56<andythenorth>ok I'll consolidate the windows doc next
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15:57<flyingghoti>Hello, everyone! I'm part of a group that's just launched a new
15:58<flyingghoti>...city-builder open-source project called Charm Cities, and I thought there might be people here interested in comparing notes and experiences. http://charmcities.net/
16:00<flyingghoti>We're trying to create a new type of city-builder game that really advances the genre by including a complete sociopolitical model that includes topics like race, disability, gender, and religion. If that's the sort of thing you find interesting, or if there are things you've learned on OpenTTD that you think it would be helpful for us to know, or if there might be assets or code you've already built that you think might h
16:02*andythenorth reads
16:02<flyingghoti>You can reach us at info@charmcities.net, or stop by our Discord at https://discord.gg/zquC4fg - that's where most of the talking happens right now. Our GitHub repo is at https://github.com/charmcities/charmcities but we're still in the early planning stages.
16:02<andythenorth>without being cynical, sounds like griefer paradise :)
16:02<andythenorth>it's perfect 4chan fodder
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>i just saw a game on steam: "social justice warrior" :p
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16:05<flyingghoti>Oh, sure, that's definitely a concern. But I don't want to not make something cool because the worst people in the world might be mad that it exists. At some point, all you can really do is put 2FA on all your accounts and go for it.
16:08<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:09<nielsm>best of luck, if you manage to make a belivable simulation with all those elements that isn't full of glitches you'll probably have solved problems considered impossible in mathematics, physics, and computer science along the way
16:09<nielsm>not to speak of social sciences
16:09<andythenorth>it's worth trying
16:10<nielsm>random technical advice: think modding first, design the core structure around having everything in the game run on the same rules/pluggable architecture
16:10<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:10<nielsm>unless you decide that mod support is off-limits and design the game to explicitly not be moddable
16:10<andythenorth>I really don't know if I've ballsed up the Windows instructions https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/split-out-compiling-instructions/COMPILING.md
16:10<andythenorth>not my field :(
16:12<flyingghoti>Thanks, nielsm, I had the vague suspicion that would be a good plan but it's really helpful to hear it confirmed.
16:13<nielsm>one of the annoying things in openttd is that it's built as a core game with built in defaults, and then mods are created as "take original item X and modify these properties"
16:13<nielsm>and there is no such thing as starting a mod from a blank slate, you can only do it based off existing objects
16:14<nielsm>this is due to legacy, inheriting the modding technology from ttdpatch that's an unofficial binary patch for transport tycoon deluxe, a 25 years old game
16:14<flyingghoti>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
16:15<nielsm>and of course there's no way to change that now without breaking the thousands of things created already, it all has to stay compatible with all new development
16:16<andythenorth>oh fuck git sometimes :(
16:16<andythenorth>rebase upstream/master onto my master gets me a merge commit
16:16<andythenorth>why?
16:16<nielsm>having a strong mods-first policy also forces some strong separation of concerns on the program code and can to some extent avoid spaghetti
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, we could break all existing mods, but i doubt the community would recover from that :p
16:17<andythenorth>rebase -i seems to cover all sins :P
16:17<LordAro>i mean, we could do "NewGRFv2" (yes i know the current version is 9, shut up), but there's no way we could ever get rid of "v1"
16:17<nielsm>the disadvantage of that kind of arhitecture is that the decoupling most likely means worse performance than if everything was tightly integrated, and the development path to get to a good place is longer since you need much more framework built before you have things "working"
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>don't worry, there'll be new sins where those came from :p
16:19<nielsm>flyingghoti: another thing to know about openttd's architecture, which may not be relevant to you, is that the game is designed to be 100% deterministic, if two players load the same save file in the same revision of openttd, and let it run without interaction (and no AIs or Game Script either), the two will produce exactly the same result
16:19<andythenorth>I really think that the modding framework in OpenTTD is fine
16:20<nielsm>that's the foundation of the multiplayer support in openttd, that every client executes exactly the same simulation
16:20<andythenorth>it's just that we fell in a cognitive hole with GS
16:20<nielsm>it's possible to do multiplayer in other ways, but this is the way ottd handles it
16:21<nielsm>andythenorth: well it would be cool if we could somehow define even the base vehicle set in a GRF
16:21<andythenorth>well I have often wondered about that
16:21<flyingghoti>That is interesting, yeah - we've discussed multiplayer a bit but we haven't come to a decision on how important it is to us yet. If we decide to leave it out of our minimum viable product we should still think about questions like that so it's not impossible to implement later.
16:21<andythenorth>my assumption nielsm is that a bunch of .h files or similar can then be dropped :P
16:22<andythenorth>and we could...you know...extende the base vehicles with cargo classes :P
16:22<andythenorth>thereby avoiding one of the common newgrf elephant traps
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>flyingghoti: if you think multiplayer isn't a focus early on, you'll probably never have multiplayer, ever.
16:22<nielsm>yes multiplayer is also one of those things you have to design for from the ground up
16:23<nielsm>it will permeate the entire code base
16:23<nielsm>...depending on the architecture
16:24<andythenorth>anyone got comments on that Windows compiling info?
16:24<nielsm>and all of these things are also covered by my favourite game engine of all time, the Quake 1 engine
16:24<andythenorth>I can only maintain interest in something like that for a limited period :P
16:24*andythenorth attention span issues
16:24<nielsm>it's mods-first, and even singleplayer games are internally handled as client-server
16:24<andythenorth>Quak 1: the reason you bought a Pentium
16:24<LordAro>probably needs nielsm to review
16:25<andythenorth>nielsm: have you read the Carmack / Romero book?
16:25<andythenorth>it's good
16:25<nielsm>I'm not typing clearly atm, have to retype sentences a lot :)
16:25<nielsm>should sleep
16:25<andythenorth>https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000FBFNL0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
16:25<andythenorth>I never type clearly it seems
16:25<nielsm>no but I probably should
16:25<andythenorth>real focus on authoring tools, very early on
16:25<frosch123>andythenorth: i never bought a pentium
16:25<andythenorth>super important
16:26<andythenorth>you got given one? :P
16:26<frosch123>i used k6 and k6 II around that time
16:26<nielsm>I played quake on a pentium 75 mhz and it was barely good enough
16:26<dwfreed>there's probably still a pentium pro 200 MHz at my parents' place
16:26<+glx>AI and gamescript addition was "cleaner"
16:27<andythenorth>yeah, my friend had a PC and upgraded from 486-66 to Pentium 75 or 90, and Quake just about got playable FPS
16:27<andythenorth>'when computers had turbo buttons'
16:27<flyingghoti>I'm wrapping up my work day and I don't want to keep you from the exciting work of sorting out Windows compiling, so I'm going to head out now, but thank you for the thoughts! This was really useful, and I might come back some time. If you're interested in following what we're getting up to, check out the website!
16:27<andythenorth>good luck
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>i upgraded from a 386 to a K6-III or so
16:27<frosch123>LordAro: btw. the solution to remove newgrf is to go the pentium route. jit them into the new format
16:27<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: that's a massive jump
16:28<LordAro>frosch123: mm, possible
16:28<andythenorth>oof
16:28<nielsm>implement a newgrf VM in whatever new language of choice
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: don't remember, about 10 times the speed?
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16:28<LordAro>nielsm: for loops in yaml!
16:28<andythenorth>err because the website is now quite burocratic
16:29<andythenorth>do I do one screenshot at a time, and wait weeks to assemble a batch?
16:29<andythenorth>or just do a PR as I get them
16:29<andythenorth>??
16:29<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause, maybe measured in mhz, probably more like 30x actual execution speed
16:29<LordAro>andythenorth: no harm in waiting a bit longer, imo
16:29<dwfreed>dem IPC gainz
16:29<nielsm>andythenorth: live website is only updated when a release tag is made
16:29<andythenorth>a PR for one screenshot seems overkill
16:30<andythenorth>but I only have one
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: afair it didn't survive very long, some capacitor on the mainboard exploded, and i had to get a new one
16:30<andythenorth>can we ditch any of this to the wiki? https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/split-out-compiling-instructions/COMPILING.md
16:31<LordAro>andythenorth: i'd be more inclined to merge a screenshot PR if it contained 1.5-8 title games :p
16:31<andythenorth>only Windows seems to need all that stuff, the other platforms are a couple of lines
16:31<LordAro>andythenorth: i would prefer it if the links were more specific
16:31<LordAro>the stackexchange link above should help
16:32<LordAro>alternatively %28 & %29
16:32<frosch123>andythenorth: usually you want to ditch the wiki into docs :p
16:32<andythenorth>owned
16:32<LordAro>andythenorth: "To get them use [vcpkg](githublink)..."
16:33<LordAro>also it still refers to the doc you just removed :p
16:33<LordAro>in fact, that whole section is out of order
16:33<LordAro>SDK -> Dependencies -> Build
16:33<LordAro>i thnk
16:35<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
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16:37<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:37<andythenorth>isn't the deps stuff duplicated now?
16:37<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/split-out-compiling-instructions/COMPILING.md
16:38<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:39<andythenorth>"To get them just use vcpkg using x86-windows-static and x64-windows-static triplets)."
16:39<andythenorth>"To install both the x64 (64bit) and x86 (32bit) variants, you can use: [instructions for vcpkg]"
16:39<andythenorth>seems to overlap?
16:40<LordAro>mm
16:41<andythenorth>'additonal' typo repeated multiple times also
16:41<andythenorth>lol
16:41<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:42<andythenorth>in the compiling doc, surely required libraries comes before instructions?
16:43<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
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16:47<+glx>https://github.com/glx22/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/2/checks <-- finally got a nice output
16:48<LordAro>nice
16:48<nielsm>ship it
16:48<+glx>I need to add some safety stuff, like checking it's not a windows VM :)
16:49<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:49<andythenorth>^ I think that might be done, barring fuckups :)
16:49<andythenorth>if anyone fancies clicking some green buttons in GH :P
16:50<LordAro>andythenorth: libicu is is Linux only nowadays
16:50<+glx>https://github.com/glx22/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/1/checks <-- docker version is not as good
16:50<LordAro>and... so is libfreetype? or am i misremembering?
16:50<+glx>freetype is droped on windows yes
16:50<andythenorth>and others?
16:51<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:51<+glx>still included in compile farm for 1.9 windows builds
16:51<andythenorth>I've noted libicu
16:51<andythenorth>if someone wants to review deps formally, they can :)
16:52<andythenorth>this was just about cleaning up README :P
16:52<andythenorth>like topsy, it has growed
16:52<andythenorth>what even is topsy? :P
16:53<andythenorth>google knew
16:53<LordAro>andythenorth: "or more recent" -> "or newer"
16:53<LordAro>i should probably review this properly on GH
16:53<andythenorth>pls
16:53<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4DK
16:54*andythenorth must to bed, you could just fork it and make in-place edits
16:55<andythenorth>reviewing .md docs via GH seems like double handling to me
16:55-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.136.179.137] has quit []
16:55<andythenorth>at work we just trade commits, or use etherpad
16:55<andythenorth>or even...google docs :P
16:55<LordAro>can't make it too easy for you :p
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16:57<andythenorth>I love that the major feature in the readme is 5.1) Logging of potentially dangerous actions
16:57<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/tree/split-out-compiling-instructions#51-logging-of-potentially-dangerous-actions
16:58<andythenorth>:D
17:04<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je49E
17:07<LordAro>andythenorth: major feature?
17:08<andythenorth>it's the main topic under OpenTTD features
17:08<andythenorth>I shall fix that...once I can restructure README safely :)
17:08<LordAro>oh i see
17:08<LordAro>:)
17:09<andythenorth>the README is quite lolz, looked at with fresh eyes
17:09<andythenorth>but very fixable
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17:18<andythenorth>is it bedtime? :P
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20:52<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] lolPants opened pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4de
21:14<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] lolPants commented on pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4d0
21:23<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4dr
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22:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4FB
22:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] lolPants updated pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4de
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22:26<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] lolPants updated pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4de
22:32<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir… https://git.io/Je4Fy
22:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] lolPants updated pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4de
22:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4bL
23:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4bA
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23:58<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years https://git.io/Je4Nx
---Logclosed Fri Oct 18 00:00:02 2019