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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-11-07

---Logopened Thu Nov 07 00:00:30 2019
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02:31<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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02:44<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
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04:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
05:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] holmesmr commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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06:46<Eddi|zuHause>have we tried bisecting the mac slowdowns by putting timing counters everywhere?
06:51<@LordAro>we already know it's the graphics rendering
06:51<@LordAro>i thought
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>but, can we go deeper?
06:58<@LordAro>i'm not sure going deeper into cocoa is worthwhile
06:59<@LordAro>i thought this was (at least partially) already solved anyway?
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>apparently not
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, can we try alternatives like SDL?
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08:05<andythenorth>so what haven't we instrumented yet? o_O
08:07<milek7>couldn't this be some power saving shenanigans?
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08:31<andythenorth>it could be app nap yes
08:31<andythenorth>but it's not commonly a cause of performance issues
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>how'd they make that shot of my cat? :p
08:33<andythenorth>is your cat on free stock photo sites?
08:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause you are outed as a secret mac user :P
08:33<andythenorth>you use macs as a cat bed
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that "app nap" doesn't seem to apply here, as it's the "active application" by any sane measures
08:36<andythenorth>it's not a plausible cause
08:36<andythenorth>plausible causes
08:36<andythenorth>* something in openttd we're not instrumenting
08:37<andythenorth>* something in the OS / hardware that has insane latency
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>in all likelyhood it's some system ressource that is guarded by a lock
08:38*andythenorth wonders if it gets better without Chrome running
08:38<andythenorth>Chrome on macOS is appalling
08:38<andythenorth>followed closely by Firefox
08:38<andythenorth>Chrome seems to lockup video a lot
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>... followed closely by OpenTTD? :p
08:40<andythenorth>OpenTTD is not usually a cause of system-wide performance issues, or hard crashes
08:40<andythenorth>unlike Chrome :P
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>why, youtube, if i watched videos ending with #1, #2, #3 and #4, is the next suggestion #8, and #5 is nowhere to be found?
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08:58<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, #5 exists, but it's not listed as a related/suggested video
09:13<andythenorth>I added videos for 1.9.1 and 1.9.3
09:14<andythenorth>some results differ widely
09:15<@LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: youtube gonna tube
09:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
09:19<milek7>mov file
09:20<milek7>for some reason i thought it died 10 years ago
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>it did, except with clueless mac users :p
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>any sane person uses mkv nowadays. and then there's the fragile mp4 which will die whenever the end of the file gets cut off
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>with 0 chance of recovery
09:22<andythenorth>I used to be able to export from quicktime to many formats
09:22<andythenorth>but Apple nerfed that
09:23<andythenorth>and VLC crashes a lot
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>so if you record a video for 16 hours, and at 15h59 your hdd runs full, you can throw everything away
09:23<andythenorth>it's funny, the production advantage of macs used to lie in the incredibly seamless support for things like video
09:23<andythenorth>with vast flexibility
09:23<andythenorth>and a complete unix and shell
09:24<andythenorth>but they've hit most of that with a nerfbat
09:24<andythenorth>in favour of coffee shop poseurs allegedly
09:24<andythenorth>anyway, the performance videos show nothing useful
09:24<andythenorth>they're highly variable
09:24<andythenorth>and it's very sensitive to which map tiles are showing
09:25<andythenorth>FIRS industries cause it to drop a few fps compared to default
09:25<andythenorth>black tiles seem to aid fps
09:25<andythenorth>I tried 1.10-0 beta, it's getting about twice the fps on ffwd, for no good reason, as I see no relevant code changes
09:26<andythenorth>without more instrumentation, it's basically voodoo :P
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09:28<Eddi|zuHause>i can offer a Tuba, if that helps? :p
09:31<andythenorth>I did use the Apple tools previously, and the results correlated with the draw issues
09:32<andythenorth>could see what else is eating the time there
09:36<andythenorth>this was the bizarre
09:37<andythenorth>oh I can convert those files with VLC if anyone can name the current format du jour :P
09:37<andythenorth>.webm? :P
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>you need to decide on 2 components: the container format, and the codec
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>(these are mostly orthogonal choices)
09:38<andythenorth>nothing changed since 2001 then :P
09:39<andythenorth>the default choice is h264 mp4
09:39<andythenorth>we'll ignore the audio codec
09:39<andythenorth>you can all open .mov anyway, VLC does it
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>codec is like x264 or x265, or vp9
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>and container is like mp4, mkv, webm
09:42<milek7>not exactly orthogonal, webm is nerfed mkv and only vp8/vp9/av1
09:42<milek7>(yes vlc plays .mov, i was just surprised that it still exists somewhere as default)
09:49<andythenorth>apple continue to make odd choices
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>apple's "think different" might go into history like the first paragraph of this:
10:09<andythenorth>"but will Apple survive?"
10:09<andythenorth>perenial question :P
10:21<milek7>Eddi|zuHause: i just wanted to point out that truncated .mp4 won't play cleanly, but surely it should be possible to extract raw stream and remux it (because why not?..)
10:21<milek7>except that i googled and really recovering that is not trivial ;p
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: no, because the mp4 container, all relevant muxing information is at the end of the file
10:22<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: without that muxing information, you essentially have only random noise
10:23<milek7>there are tools but they require another valid file produced by same encoder and settings
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: yes, but even then it might still fail
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11:28<Samu>who can #7670?
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13:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #55: Codechange: use pyinstaller to generate standalone executable
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13:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #55: Codechange: use pyinstaller to generate standalone executable
13:30<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #55: Codechange: use pyinstaller to generate standalone executable
14:30<andythenorth>"nml is lovely this time of year"
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14:37<@LordAro>andythenorth: i love the smell of nml in the morning?
14:38<andythenorth>nml is so bracing
14:39<andythenorth>I should 'adapt' that for nml :P
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14:59<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Honza1987 commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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15:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
15:47<andythenorth>so not many conclusions ^
15:47<andythenorth>but it is a regression, we can't simply blame Apple :x
15:47<andythenorth>well we can, but it's not true :P
15:49*andythenorth should try JGRPP
15:49<andythenorth>apparently doesn't have any mac issues
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16:17<@LordAro>andythenorth: suspicious
16:17<andythenorth>haven't tested yet
16:18<andythenorth>wonder how often JGR rebases master
16:19<andythenorth>1.8.0 has different performance issues to 1.9.0 and 1.9.3
16:20<@LordAro>andythenorth: 1.8 -> 1.9 could be due to different build server
16:20<@LordAro>but you build yourself anyway, so...
16:21<andythenorth>I use the official binaries for official releases
16:22<andythenorth>hmm, so there are many variables
16:22<@LordAro>as ever
16:22<andythenorth>instrumentation needed :P
16:22<andythenorth>can we build 1.8.0 on the new farm?
16:23<@LordAro>in theory yes, in practice ...with quite a lot of effort
16:34<andythenorth>mystery continues :P
16:36<milek7>there are things unaccounted by framerate gui
16:37<milek7>like rest of GameLoop
16:37<milek7>and QZ_CheckPaletteAnim
16:38<andythenorth>I can instrument using the mac tools
16:38<andythenorth>it's quite....hard to interpret for me
16:39<_dp_>andythenorth, you can also try citymania client
16:39<_dp_>though I'd be very surprised if it's any different from vanila
16:43<andythenorth>trying jgrpp
16:43*andythenorth needs faster compiler
16:43<andythenorth>faster computer
16:43<andythenorth>faster all
16:44<andythenorth>so slow
16:46<andythenorth>jgrpp perf. is subjectively identical to 1.9.3
16:49<@LordAro>well that's something
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17:04<andythenorth>they're pretty rough measures
17:04<andythenorth>I don't have a consistent savegame etc
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18:26<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh reopened issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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19:55<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #55: Codechange: use pyinstaller to generate standalone executable
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 08 00:00:32 2019