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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-11-17

---Logopened Sun Nov 17 00:00:45 2019
00:30<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: minimap command https://git.io/JegRL
00:37<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/Jeo1m
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02:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/JegRL
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02:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/JegRL
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03:03<andythenorth>o/
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03:06<andythenorth>JGR-only grfs https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=83704
03:06<andythenorth>still unlikely?
03:06<andythenorth>it's happening
03:17<andythenorth>interesting eh? :)
03:18<Pikka>ew
03:18<andythenorth>hello bob
03:18<Pikka>hello
03:19<andythenorth>pls discurse on snowploughs?
03:19<andythenorth>or snowplows
03:19<andythenorth>I am considering
03:19<Pikka>snoughplows
03:19<andythenorth>snough?
03:19<Pikka>yes
03:19<andythenorth>is that like slough?
03:19<andythenorth>sloughplow
03:19<Pikka>only snoughier
03:19<andythenorth>are snoughploughs pointy?
03:21<Pikka>fairly pointless I'd say
03:21<andythenorth>do you have a sprite for them somewhere?
03:22<andythenorth>I probably have it decompled already, but which set :P
03:23<Pikka>I think there was one in NARS1
03:23<Pikka>I'll see if I can find it
03:23<Pikka>meanwhile, I solved daylength: https://i.imgur.com/c7Wvnbz.png
03:24<andythenorth>oo
03:24<Pikka>if people don't feel there's enough time to play with their favourite era of vehicles, just lock the grf to that era :P
03:24<andythenorth>that's interesting
03:24<andythenorth>I was going to do 2 params, 'generation length' and 'gen 1 start date'
03:25<andythenorth>but Eddi|zuHause said I was wrong :P
03:28<Pikka>https://i.imgur.com/ireAAOz.png dan's NARS snoughplough
03:28<LordAro>andythenorth: wallyweb, the guy that still uses XP and only very begrudgingly uses OTTD over TTDP? i have to say, i am surprised
03:30<andythenorth>Pikka: thx :D
03:30<andythenorth>LordAro: I suspect there will be JGR-specific FIRS soon
03:31<andythenorth>there isn't an attached question, it's just interesting watching transitions between software
03:35<LordAro>andythenorth: what features are you looking to use?
03:35<andythenorth>it won't be me
03:35*LordAro disappears for 4 hours
03:35<andythenorth>I think it will get forked for daylength
03:36<andythenorth>I don't use JGR, I find it overwhelming and confusing
03:40<andythenorth>how fast are snoughploughs then pikka?
03:41<andythenorth>125mph?
03:42<Pikka>erm
03:42<Pikka>I don't know. Is anyone going to use it on a real train?
03:42<andythenorth>unlikely
03:42<andythenorth>unlimited :P
03:42<andythenorth>20 bags of mail?
03:43<andythenorth>hmm, it has to be an engine, can't set 'no speed limit' :P
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03:49<nielsm>about 60 km/h for snowploughs I think
03:50<nielsm>this one is 70 km/h https://www.jernbanen.dk/dsb_specsolo.php?aar=1982&VognID=3046
03:52<andythenorth>UK rules say 45mph
03:52<andythenorth>ha ha shunter converted to snowplough (de-powered) https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesel-dilemmas/snowplough-class-08s/adb966507
03:52<andythenorth>co-incidence, I just finished drawing the shunter sprite :P
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04:34<andythenorth>this sprite is lolz bad, but I might keep it :)
04:34<andythenorth>snoughplough https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9531/snowplough_1.png
04:35<andythenorth>pikka pikka pikka
04:35<Pikka>noice
04:35<andythenorth>so realisms
04:36<andythenorth>fine details
04:38<Pikka>very
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05:13<andythenorth>moar realisms :P https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9532/snowplough_2.png
05:13<andythenorth>not sure it's better
05:13<andythenorth>BIAB
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05:59*andythenorth_ tries to remember why daylength will never work
06:00<andythenorth_>we figured it out here once, but I forgot :p
06:01<andythenorth_>something like ‘daylength doesn’t work like people think it does’
06:01<frosch123>it's about trying to slow tech progression without changing econonmy
06:01<andythenorth_>apparently it will be fine if I just make a JGR FIRS?
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06:12<andythenorth_>found some discussion https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=76875&hilit=Daylength#p1190808
06:13<andythenorth_>problem was conflicting player goals for daylength
06:13<andythenorth_>hence can never work
06:14<andythenorth_>but if it’s done in JGR is it time to just merge it?
06:16<andythenorth_>also has anyone tried it?
06:16*andythenorth_ wonders what it looks like with trains moving much slower
06:16<andythenorth_>seems like it would be very very dull
06:18<andythenorth_>if they want to play the game at 15fps they could just buy a Mac :D
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06:29<Pikka>I do like the stripey snoughplow though
06:30<andythenorth_>so stripe
06:30<andythenorth_>thougplough
06:31<andythenorth_>or thoughplough
06:35<andythenorth_>I need to plug 3 hdmi devices into a TV with 2 hdmi ports
06:35<andythenorth_>is there a solution? o_O?
06:39*andythenorth_ googles
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07:23<TrueBrain>no; nobody solved that. ever. :P
07:23<TrueBrain>silly goose
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09:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman opened issue #58: Why is Pillow >= 5.2 required? https://git.io/Jeo71
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09:42<andythenorth>yo
09:42<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you have solved my problem!
09:51<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman opened pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection https://git.io/Jeo5R
09:51<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #54: Fix #39: Add compatibility with >=pillow-7.0.0 https://git.io/Jeo50
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10:11<supermop_Home>what's in 1.10.0?
10:11<supermop_Home>somehow it feels early
10:13<nielsm>earlier plan was to have 1.10 final out by october or there about, obviously didn't happen
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10:43<andythenorth>plans
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11:26<andythenorth>could a GS eliminate local authority rating? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=86314#p1226813
11:27<nielsm>it should be possible to add a GS function to modify LA rating
11:27<nielsm>maybe let GS set a flag to freeze GS rating for a company in a town
11:28<nielsm>freeze LA rating for a company*
11:29<andythenorth>https://nogo.openttd.org/api/1.9.0/classGSTown.html#afd4a428aec98e443a50d8865fd05e4bb
11:29<andythenorth>is that get only?
11:30<andythenorth>can't see a set
11:30<nielsm>yeah get only
11:30<nielsm>and even GS can only get the rating category, not the exact numeric rating
11:31<andythenorth>alternatively we could redefine 'permissive' for the existing openttd setting
11:31<andythenorth>I'm strugging to see a downside to just nerfing the town hostility via the setting
11:31<andythenorth>it's not adding a *new* setting
11:32<nielsm>yeah it'd make sense to allow people who don't play for a game challenge to just not be troubled by towns
11:33<andythenorth>seems to be RATING_ROAD_NEEDED_PERMISSIVE and similar
11:33*andythenorth looking
11:33<andythenorth>new setting 'anything goes' ?
11:34<andythenorth>all values set to -1000?
11:34<nielsm>"unrestricted" yeah
11:34<andythenorth>I have used 'permissive' for years, and I find it very restrictive
11:34<andythenorth>that, and not being able to remove connected road pieces
11:36<frosch123>"lobbying"
11:37<andythenorth>shall I try and patch this?
11:37<andythenorth>one more for the huge stack of PRs? :)
11:37<nielsm>hmm actually, that setting, does it not affect the rate at which LA rating changes, but rather just the rating thresholds for being allowed certain actions?
11:37<andythenorth>yes
11:37<andythenorth>it would still be 'appalling'
11:37<andythenorth>but it wouldn't matter
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13:35<andythenorth>this shape is _so_ simple to draw in OpenTTD pixels :)
13:35<andythenorth>https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tauntontrains.co.uk%2Foldsite%2Fimages%2F2017-MAR%2F66302-66431-21-03-17-7Z09-FAIRWATER-FAIRWATER-NORTON-TC.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tauntontrains.co.uk%2Foldsite%2FNEWS-2017-MAR.htm&tbnid=URWZdxgiX5-O3M&vet=10CCUQMyh2ahcKEwiIhdLA6_DlAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg..i&docid=fggDUn96igqJKM&w=850&h=607&q=GWR%20snowplough&hl=en&ved=0CCUQMyh2ahcKEwiIhdLA6_DlAhUAAAAAHQA
13:35<andythenorth>AAAQAg
13:35<andythenorth>or not
13:40<LordAro>be better at copying links
13:43<frosch123>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nvEYDUYwvek/maxresdefault.jpg <- when you do the complete snow set
13:44<LordAro>:D
13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JeoAN
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:46<andythenorth>I considered SnowPlough grf :P
13:46<andythenorth>all transport types
13:47<andythenorth>can we give them some purpose? :P
13:49<frosch123>confuse future generations when they find the grf in the ice?
13:50<frosch123>late payoff :p
13:50<andythenorth>might be too late for me :P
13:50<andythenorth>long game though
13:54<andythenorth>what's worse?
13:54<andythenorth>OpenTTD is still being played in 100 years?
13:55<andythenorth>Or it isn't because civilisational collapse?
13:56<nielsm>need a way for newgrf vehicles (and industries and houses and newobjects) to produce decorative particles
13:57<nielsm>for snowploughs and to generalise exhaust from steam/diesel engines and exhaust from industries and houses
13:57<nielsm>(e.g. power station chimney, toyland bubble generator)
13:58<andythenorth>imagine the fps then :)
13:58<andythenorth>I would have maybe 5fps, instead of 15
13:58<nielsm>what if I don't want to?
13:59<andythenorth>can't force you
14:04<frosch123>firs still getting forked in 100 years?
14:07<andythenorth>oof
14:07<frosch123>snowplough may be a bit of a gamble
14:08<frosch123>either noone understands the concept
14:08<frosch123>or everything is covered with snow
14:09<frosch123>add a grf parameter "gulf stream"?
14:09<frosch123>yes/no
14:09<nielsm>need to add a new landscape array to indicate snow level on a tile
14:12*andythenorth considers variable speed limit railtypes :P
14:12<andythenorth>with a count of the train types recently using them :P
14:13<frosch123>ask eddi to design a fsm for the rail/snowplough interaction
14:18<andythenorth>did I patch the town rating yet?
14:19<frosch123>did you make a teaser screenshot of the setting for the forums yet?
14:19<frosch123>or did you quit forums?
14:21<andythenorth>not this week
14:21<andythenorth>I did read an old thread that reminded me why I quite sometimes :P
14:22<andythenorth>it's nice that we tolerate such bad behaviour in the official forum :)
14:22<andythenorth>quit / quite /s
14:24<andythenorth>a
14:24<andythenorth>forum so official that most devs won't post or read it :P
14:25<frosch123>the official twitter also says "noone reads this"
14:26<frosch123>for some reason that even seemed to work
14:26<frosch123>there were a lot less replies to tweets after adding that
14:27<andythenorth>so will JGR-only grfs be able to use Bananas?
14:28<frosch123>https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/dxpjif/openttd_or_simutrans/ <- sometimes i wonder whether my english is as german as that one
14:28<frosch123>bananas2 was meant to support ottd forks
14:28<andythenorth>your English many days would pass for English English
14:29<andythenorth>often better than mine :P
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>in my experience, native english speakers tend to have the worst english across all people in a location
14:29<frosch123>i quit english in school as early as possible
14:30<frosch123>at some point english lessons turned into literature
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i was always "good" in english at school, but i haven't actually learned anything until i started actually using it after i was out of school
14:31<frosch123>i kind of fell asleep during tests about stuff like "west side story" and used 3 different spellings for "america"
14:31<frosch123>in a short text
14:31<andythenorth>either (1) English is incredibly flexible and native speakers can interpret the gaps
14:31<andythenorth>or (2) native English speakers miscommunicate constantly, which might explain the incredible levels of suppressed rage in England
14:33<frosch123>i only understood the reddit post above, when i noticed the german sentence layout and then translated it back literally
14:34<frosch123>sadly there are no simutrans pros on the ottd reddit
14:37<andythenorth>no
14:37<andythenorth>but it looks like Reddit have switched to JGR
14:38<andythenorth>at what point can we just close all the OpenTTD PRs? :)
14:40<frosch123>there is also "archive project", it's just one click
14:41<LordAro>arbitrary reminder to andythenorth that reddit, or indeed anything on social media, is not a representarive sample of OTTD usage
14:41<andythenorth>nah really?
14:42<LordAro>yah really
14:42<frosch123>what about irc?
14:42<LordAro>especially not irc
14:42<andythenorth>but at some point
14:43<nielsm>I guess there isn't really any usage stats collection of ottd, the closest might be any client stats the master server might collect and I'm not sure it collects anything?
14:43<andythenorth>everybody will have switched anyway :)
14:43<LordAro>nielsm: download stats, probably
14:43<andythenorth>social media also doesn't tell you that everybody *has* switched
14:43<andythenorth>anyway, it will happen
14:43<andythenorth>TTDP -> OpenTTD - > JGR-PP
14:44<LordAro>you have a weird view of things
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>there's no data to back up that claim
14:44<frosch123>andythenorth: i don't consider that bad
14:45<frosch123>jgr is quite skilled when it comes to compatibility
14:46<frosch123>jgrpp savegame compatibility handling is way more advanced than ottd
14:46<LordAro>someone should work out how to backport that at some point
14:47<andythenorth>I think it's fine
14:47<nielsm>yeah it could also make porting savegames between experimental feature branches and later versions with that feature merged possible
14:47<andythenorth>it's really common that people who are being over-run by a new thing don't realise it
14:47<andythenorth>until they look around and realise their thing is dead
14:48<frosch123>yep, recently i had a job interview like that :p
14:48<andythenorth>mercurial -> git
14:48<andythenorth>Perl -> PHP -> Python
14:48<andythenorth>macOS -> inertia :P
14:49<andythenorth>frosch123 people have jobs? :o
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14:51<frosch123>33% of people have jobs
14:51<frosch123>weirdly low actually
14:51<andythenorth>based on social media stats?
14:51<frosch123>yes
14:52<frosch123>err, no
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i've seen projections that'll drop to about 20% in the medium future
14:52<frosch123>based on social insurance stats
14:52<andythenorth>how many are snowplough drivers?
14:53<frosch123>truck or train based?
14:54<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ai panic?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i wouldn't call it "panic" just yet
14:55<andythenorth>someone has to feed the AI
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but we'll see advances like that in the transportation sector (like, truck drivers, taxi drivers, etc.) in the next 10-20 years
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yeah, but 4% of people work on feeding humans nowadays, whereas it was more like 75% 200 years ago
14:58<andythenorth>I sometimes wonder what the most AI-proof job is
14:59<frosch123>jobs that ducks cannot handle
14:59<frosch123>i like to compare current AIs with 100000 year old ducks :)
15:00<frosch123>they are good at repetitive stuff, but fail when something is slightly off the track
15:00<frosch123>the recent starcraft games were an hillarious example of that
15:01<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> they are good at repetitive stuff, but fail when something is slightly off the track <-- i've worked with people like that
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>thing is, in my line of work, there's always something slightly off the track...
15:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: well, it doesn't count if the "slightly off the track" is caused by other humans :p
15:04<andythenorth>how about plumbing?
15:04<andythenorth>can boston dynamics do that yet?
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: when is anything ever not caused by other humans?
15:04<frosch123>some people have said that some of the ai car accidents, where the humans were at fault, happened because humans expected the driver to behave like a human
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, when AIs too strictly follow the rules
15:06<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe work as food critic?
15:06<andythenorth>nah that's just chemistry?
15:06<andythenorth>or image analysis
15:06<andythenorth>chef?
15:07<frosch123>at least there won't be time machines
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i have a friend who says he can spot undercover police cars, on account of them driving like no normal human would drive
15:07<andythenorth>how accurate is he?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: machines are terrible at chemistry, on account of how poor our sensors are compared to the human (or animal) nose
15:10<frosch123>yeah, the most popular browser extenstion of the futrue will be the "nosmell" extension at blocks the odor-media-channel
15:12<frosch123>it will be invented shortly after scam adds heavily focused on using that feature
15:23<andythenorth>20 bags of mail in a snowplough then?
15:23<frosch123>refittable to beer?
15:24<andythenorth>yes
15:24<andythenorth>10t of beer
15:24<andythenorth>express cargos
15:24<andythenorth>stupid things are fun to draw
15:24<frosch123>silly grfs would probably make it a single vehicle with 4 pax, and not accept attaching wagons
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could technically use alcohol to unfreeze the snow
15:24<frosch123>refittable to salt and sand?
15:25<frosch123>unfortunately it's empty on arrival
15:27<andythenorth>we never did implement cargo wastage
15:27<andythenorth>or robbery
15:27<frosch123>train robbery accident?
15:27<andythenorth>yes
15:27<frosch123>we never added more disasters :p
15:27<andythenorth>Railroad Tycoon reference :P
15:29<andythenorth>haha
15:29<andythenorth>I had a pony
15:29<andythenorth>variable cargo payment rate, cb on the vehicle
15:29<andythenorth>but maybe it should be 'wastage' instead :P
15:29<andythenorth>so passengers actually die in third class
15:29<andythenorth>this is very poor taste
15:30<andythenorth>but it would give a reason to have luxury / anti-luxury vehicles :P
15:30<frosch123>reduce cargo by 1% when crossing low bridges?
15:31<frosch123>*under
15:34<andythenorth>so many possibilities
15:34<andythenorth>we have to stay ahead of JGR somehow no?
15:35<frosch123>add a pay wall for the osx binary?
15:35<andythenorth>I don't think we can justifiably charge for it :P
15:35<andythenorth>paywall for playable FPS? :)
15:49<frosch123>i think factorio is also on their 3rd or 4th osx dev
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15:50<frosch123>also, should we visit V's talk at some gamedev conference and ask troll questions about yetis?
15:51<andythenorth>it has an appeal
15:54<frosch123>hmm, 1000 visitors... it's kind of bigger than i though
15:55<andythenorth>to bananas? o_O
15:55<frosch123>http://www.gdsession.com/
16:01<andythenorth>hmm nobody ever looks like I expect :
16:01<andythenorth>:P
16:01<frosch123>not sluggish enough?
16:02<frosch123>the factorio party 2 years ago was kind of funny
16:03<andythenorth>I do in fact look like this https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/675934870/twitter_pic_400x400.jpg
16:03<frosch123>most factorio employees are progammers and introverts
16:03<frosch123>V was the only extrovert, and kind of ran the show :p
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: i know, you had some encounters with copy machines
16:07<frosch123>i also remember some guillotine swinging from the ceiling
16:09<frosch123>hmm, kind of similar to asdf movies. standard brittish?
16:14<andythenorth>not sure where asdf is from
16:15<frosch123>he is brittish, i saw a live talk last year (not live)
16:15<frosch123>he doodled some sketches at some brittish convention
16:16<frosch123>can you locate people by accent?
16:16<andythenorth>somewhat
16:16<andythenorth>if it's an obvious accent
16:17<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomSka
16:17<frosch123>oh, so easy :p
16:19<andythenorth>did I do nuclear fuel in FIRS? :P https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ulf_Stahmer/publication/281648832/figure/fig3/AS:650467109515279@1532094852995/Trains-carrying-used-nuclear-fuel-en-route-to-Sellafield-Source-Direct-Rail-Services.png
16:21<frosch123>new disaster: protesters blocking the track
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16:25<andythenorth>maybe if electricity did something...
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16:33<andythenorth>how many snowplough generations? :P
16:33<andythenorth>seems like 1 might be adequate :P
16:33<andythenorth>possibly even too many
16:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: FWIW, as an intermittent reddit/openttd person, you're wrong
16:34<FLHerne>(:P)
16:34<andythenorth>?
16:35<FLHerne>r/openttd runs three servers - S1/S3 are stable upstream with/without grfs, S2 is patchpack
16:35<FLHerne>It used to be a custom, Reddit-specific patchpack
16:36<FLHerne>But no-one was maintaining it, so now it's JGRPP
16:36<frosch123>no reddit client anymore?
16:37<FLHerne>By far the busiest server is still S1, the upstream 1.9.3 one
16:38<FLHerne>Oh, hang on, it still is the custom client
16:38<FLHerne>So now I just have no idea what you meant...
16:39<andythenorth>I read the subreddit
16:39<FLHerne>Posts by individual users?
16:39<andythenorth>I don't use the servers
16:39<andythenorth>yes posts
16:39<andythenorth>JGR is at tipping point
16:39<andythenorth>forums are already switched
16:39<andythenorth>reddit is switching
16:39<FLHerne>I don't think JGRPP has dramatically increased the actual share of patchpack usage, just unified it
16:40<FLHerne>There used to be ChillCore's, SpringPP and a whole bunch of smaller ones
16:40<FLHerne>But JGR's is the first one to be unambiguously superior to any other available :P
16:41<FLHerne>SpringPP savegame compat helps to
16:41<FLHerne>Remember, the people who bother posting on forums are the hardcore obsessive lot
16:42<FLHerne>By that logic, car manufacturers might as well give up making econoboxes, because everyone on r/cars is driving hot hatches and 2-seaters
16:43<FLHerne>*too
16:43<andythenorth>it's about discovery and recommendation
16:43<andythenorth>the prevailing recommendation is now JGRPP
16:44<andythenorth>and all posts in the public channels reinforce that
16:44<andythenorth>it's fine
16:44<andythenorth>players get what they want
16:44<andythenorth>I'm +1 to JGR
16:44<FLHerne>That's still not new
16:44<FLHerne>When trunk didn't have cargodist, that was the ubiquitous recommendation
16:46<FLHerne>There's no /point/ recommending upstream, because everyone knows it's there
16:46<FLHerne>I'm a fan of JGRPP too, I have some big savegames using it
16:48<andythenorth>I don't recall a period where most of forum activity was a PP thread
16:48<andythenorth>whereas JGR is most of forum now
16:48<andythenorth>I've been around since....what 2008?
16:48<andythenorth>2007
16:50<FLHerne>I think my first OTTD version was 0.6.3, whenever that was
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16:51<frosch123>autumn 2008
16:51<FLHerne>2008, but this was on Debian, so probably a year later :P
16:53<FLHerne>Hm, forum account is 2011, but I think I must have been reading it anonymously before that
16:53<andythenorth>anyway, JGR is a useful safety valve for ever more detailed and broken timetable patches
16:53<FLHerne>> I'm planning to run OTTD on my PowerBook 1400, it's compiling at the moment. The problem is that with only 64MB of RAM and a 133MHz CPU, performance is likely to be an issue.
16:54<FLHerne>Haha, I'd forgotten that
16:54<FLHerne>It actually worked, too!
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>"<frosch123> can you locate people by accent?" <-- i think that was the plot of My Fair Lady :p
16:54<andythenorth>wow
16:54<andythenorth>also has anyone tried daylength in JGR?
16:54<andythenorth>I'm curious what it looks like with the trains moving really slowly?
16:55<FLHerne>(on Debian Etch with an extremely unstable custom kernel, with a 'bootloader' that worked by booting MacOS and then overwriting the OS's memory...)
16:55<frosch123>i am quite sure the trains do not change their speed
16:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: It doesn't work that way
16:56<FLHerne>Motion per tick is unchanged, ticks per day change
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no daylength patch ever slowed down trains
16:57<FLHerne>I /think/ JGR has the version where town-cargo production is kept constant per-tick rather than being scaled with daylength
16:59<FLHerne>(yes, and it has a separate setting for that)
16:59<andythenorth>I think I misunderstood something in a thread
17:05<andythenorth>so why don't we merge it?
17:05<frosch123>for the same reasons why ottd cannot fix the conversion between mph and km/h
17:06<frosch123>daylenth changes the conversion between stuff/tick and stuff/day
17:06<andythenorth>raisins?
17:06<frosch123>and you never know what newgrf intended
17:07<frosch123>FLHerne said there is a setting in jgrpp, to change how the built-in stuff scales
17:07<andythenorth>it's reported to just work https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177&start=1560#p1226802
17:07<frosch123>maybe newgrf can read that
17:07<FLHerne>frosch123: There's a separate multiplier for town-cargo generation
17:08<frosch123>what about industry generation?
17:08<FLHerne>I'm not sure how it deals with newgrf industry production
17:08<FLHerne>Hm
17:08<andythenorth>it seems that we need to accomodate it in grf
17:08<FLHerne>I think the rate per tick is the same, and the "<n> per month" thing is just wrong
17:08<andythenorth>can we not just scale the production?
17:08<frosch123>andythenorth: let's say, i am quite sure ecs hard conflicts with daylength :)
17:09<andythenorth>fair enough :)
17:09<frosch123>though for firs: i would expect the supply cargo mechanics should be off
17:09<andythenorth>oh yeah, supplies will be broken fairly certain
17:09<andythenorth>but just add another parameter for that?
17:09<andythenorth>let player configure all?
17:09<andythenorth>maybe we just turn newgrf developer tools on by default?
17:10<andythenorth>how about a game setting for how many times production cb runs per month?
17:10<frosch123>andythenorth: that post says it all
17:10<andythenorth>it just works, as long as the newgrf is rewritten
17:10<frosch123>there are several known issues, but they do not matter to those who use daylength
17:10<andythenorth>and the major benefit of daylength is that it reduces cargo production
17:10<andythenorth>except when it isn't
17:10<andythenorth>I read a thread about it :P
17:11<andythenorth>"what's daylength for" cannot resolve to a single answer
17:11<andythenorth>scaling production is the exact opposite of what some players want
17:11<andythenorth>they're using daylength to cut down transport amounts
17:11<andythenorth>all of this bothers me somehow
17:12<andythenorth>I don't see the lolz in it :D
17:12<frosch123>why do you care? do you get firs-reports with jgrpp savegames?
17:12<andythenorth>not yet
17:14<frosch123>do you get bug reports with savegames at all?
17:14<andythenorth>no
17:14<frosch123>anyway, you can't solve firs with adding some multipliers
17:15<frosch123>a month is still longer with daylength
17:15<andythenorth>the main problem I have is that there's nothing to design against
17:15<frosch123>techncially supplies work in ticks, but the wording is so hard in that case
17:15<andythenorth>with daylength should supplies be needed more often, or less?
17:15<andythenorth>it's completely puzzling what the point of the game is
17:16<frosch123>with daylength you would require supplies more often, no whole months but every odd number of days
17:16<andythenorth>but if the goal is to transport less frequently?
17:17<frosch123>essentially you need to replace std::system_clock with std::steady_clock :p
17:17<frosch123>andythenorth: then make the wagons bigger/trains longer?
17:17<andythenorth>no the players want smaller ones
17:17<andythenorth>I wonder if pikka's solution will be enough to fix the issue
17:17<frosch123>the goal of daylength is time progression not cargo scaling
17:18<frosch123>well, i would file those players under abusing daylength
17:18<frosch123>they use every observable behaviour of daylength, not the indended one
17:18<andythenorth>this is what puzzles me
17:18<andythenorth>why don't they just make newgrfs?
17:19<andythenorth>maybe I am being dense :P
17:19<andythenorth>can GS reset the year? :P
17:20<frosch123>let them figure it out themself :) yet another firs fork, forking from the generated nml
17:20*andythenorth ponders a GS that just resets the date every other cycle
17:20<andythenorth>well putting aside my confusion, I do actually want to put intro date scaling into my vehicle grfs
17:20<andythenorth>but the desires of players are so murky that I can't figure out the design
17:21<andythenorth>and Eddi|zuHause said I shouldn't, and we should implement daylength properly :P
17:21<frosch123>one parameter per generation?
17:21<andythenorth>base date?
17:21<andythenorth>hmm, but I have rosters, with different base generations
17:21<frosch123>i think i made something similar with V
17:21<andythenorth>I could fork the grf for each roster
17:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: I think daylength is almost universally for 'realism'
17:22<frosch123>andythenorth: the idea was to set date for "steam age", "diesel age", "electric age"
17:22<FLHerne>So in-grf intro scaling doesn't help
17:22<frosch123>and lineary scale all intro dates inbetween
17:22<FLHerne>The cargo-production side-effect was mostly a happy accident, I think
17:22<frosch123>so the realtive introduction of the rosters would still be the same
17:22<andythenorth>I did ask what daylength is for https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=76875&p=1190807&hilit=daylength+suggestions#p1190807
17:23<andythenorth>the answers are non-conclusive
17:23<FLHerne>And at the current version mostly avoids doing it in favour of creating different bugs :P
17:23<frosch123>just some engines are top-notch for 50 years instead of 20
17:24<andythenorth>hmm
17:24<andythenorth>maybe Horse should be split up
17:27<andythenorth>then it could scale the intro dates
17:27<andythenorth>or I could just do a single multiplier property, that might work
17:27<andythenorth>I could call it daylength? o_O
17:31<frosch123>good idea, just add a setting "daylength" to all your grfs
17:31<frosch123>and add some random behaviour to it
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17:32<andythenorth>oo
17:32<andythenorth>randomised model expiry? o_O
17:33<andythenorth>maybe bits of the tech tree are missing?
17:33<andythenorth>randomised reliability decay?
17:33<andythenorth>does reliability even work with daylength?
17:34<frosch123>depends what people expect :)
17:36*andythenorth wonders what would happen if we just did sandbox mode
17:37<andythenorth>and hid the clock
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17:38<andythenorth>actually I think that's what bothers me
17:39<andythenorth>sometimes non-existent sandbox mode tries to poke out
17:39<andythenorth>and then it runs up against the creaky gameplay 'balance'
17:39<andythenorth>maybe there should just be timeless sandbox
17:40<andythenorth>town restrictions off, vehicles all on never expire, game date set to max and hidden
17:41<nielsm>no money?
17:41<andythenorth>not sure
17:41<andythenorth>it's an idea though
17:41<andythenorth>I remember what frosch123 said about random useless newgrf ideas, that sometimes become a pattern, that can become an actual spec
17:42<andythenorth>hmm Muppets play NIN 'Closer', not safe for work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7c28KhPEpo
17:42<nielsm>well, late and stuff, gnight
17:42<andythenorth>bye
17:43<frosch123>hmm, belugas heard nin as well... i never heard about them outside this channel
17:45<andythenorth>I probably lived in a bubble where everyone liked NIN :)
17:45<andythenorth>and the Aphex Twin
17:45<andythenorth>Sandbox mode for OpenTTD 2.0 then :P
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17:52<frosch123>so a 10 year old video suddently becomes viral?
17:53<frosch123>on a channel that has not been active for 9 years
17:54<frosch123>probably russian hackers
17:55<andythenorth>or algorithms
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18:15<andythenorth>so bedtime :P
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18:38<Samu>who can look at this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7822
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>if i'm starting a java program, and it tells me "segmentation fault"... how many wrong turns did i take?
19:25<FLHerne>Well, the first one was 'Java' and none of the others matter :P
19:25<FLHerne>It's frustratingly easy to segfault the Python interpreter by using PyQt wrong
19:25<FLHerne>And, of course, it's then a complete nightmare to debug
19:26<FLHerne>> "If it can't possibly go wrong, it will go wrong and be impossible to fix."
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