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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-12-02

---Logopened Mon Dec 02 00:00:06 2019
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05:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company https://git.io/JeREi
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06:27<LordAro>supermop_work_: have you considered a bouncer?
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07:15<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/JeMRT
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09:45<supermop_work_>hi andy
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10:07<andythenorth>yo
10:07<andythenorth>supermop_work_: how's the Horse game?
10:07<supermop_work_>pretty mature
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10:08<supermop_work_>don't really have a natural path to build out HSR though. Making like 4k vehicles a month
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11:48<supermop_work_>this year wife's company holiday party is 'cocktail attire'
11:48<supermop_work_>never had any need to wear a tuxedo since high school prom
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13:22<Arveen>anyone using HexChat on Windows ?
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13:26<supermop_work_>i tried
13:26<supermop_work_>didn't work
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13:27<supermop_work_>this was a couple years ago
13:27<andythenorth>TrueBrain: IT IS ISO 27001:2013 AUDIT TOMORROW!
13:27<andythenorth>it's like christmas for andythenorth
13:27<Arveen>i switched to darkmode on windows and hexchat is still bright - i guess darkmode is just for uwp apps or something ?
13:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: so does the python C binary thing work? o_O
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13:34<supermop_work_>can i wear gortex sneakers with a suit and have it still count as 'cocktail attire'
13:35<supermop_work_>now that i don't have to wear dressy clothes for work anymore i am done with cold /wet feet
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13:37<supermop_work_>peter1138: do you have egg-beaters / toe clips?
13:38<@peter1138>I have SPD clips
13:38<andythenorth>I used to have clips
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13:39<supermop_work_>have any of you tried the chrome shoes that are like skate shoes with clips on the bottom?
13:40<andythenorth>I used to have some like that, can't remember what brand
13:40<andythenorth>unless they're thoroughly rigid you're winning almost nothing
13:40<andythenorth>SPD into a floppy shoe is a waste of time imho
13:41<andythenorth>and if you're only riding a few miles in a city, SPD is a waster of time full stop
13:41*andythenorth has reformed, and is now back on totally flat pedals
13:41<supermop_work_>i've actually heard the chrome shoes are so stiff they kind of dont work as street / skate shoes
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13:41<andythenorth>the ones I had were horrible to walk in
13:41<supermop_work_>was wondering if they were one of those 'worst of both worlds' things
13:41<andythenorth>negated the point, you wouldn't want to wear them all day
13:42<andythenorth>so might as well just have cycle shoe
13:42<supermop_work_>but they do make waterproof ones
13:42<supermop_work_>hate riding in the rain / snow in the city
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13:43<supermop_work_>i imagine you guys have no choice but to ride in the rain though
13:43*andythenorth does not ride in the rain :P
13:44<supermop_work_>i just put on trench coat and walk
13:44<supermop_work_>umbrella > changing clothes at work
13:46<andythenorth>'taxi'
13:46<supermop_work_>ha
13:46<supermop_work_>no
13:47<supermop_work_>taking cabs within manhattan is for people who want to watch the world burn
13:47<andythenorth>if it rains, I often find I'm wfh :P
13:47<supermop_work_>or want to watch the world pass you by as you sit in a jam of 10,000 other taxis and ubers
13:48<andythenorth>I usually get more productive work done wfh anyway
13:48<supermop_work_>i can do almost all of my job from home but my industry is weird about it because of 'studio culture'
13:50<andythenorth>I go in to hang out
13:50<andythenorth>and feel like a useful manager
13:50<andythenorth>and spread culture
13:50<andythenorth>but if I actually want to make any money
13:50<andythenorth>I stay home
13:50<supermop_work_>how far do firs vehicle dealers have to be from city center? is it a fixed amount of tiles?
13:50<andythenorth>dunno :)
13:50<andythenorth>you using v3?
13:51<andythenorth>it uses the default OpenTTD 'IND_FLAG_BUILT_NEAR_TOWN' in v3
13:51<Arveen>btw: is FIRS4 a thing ? i read some lines a couple of days ago but can't remember exactly
13:53<supermop_work_>ah hmm. my city is now too big
13:54<supermop_work_>and anywhere i can fit a station to drop of vehicles is too far away from city center
13:56<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/commits/v4-release-track Arveen
13:58<andythenorth>I should finish v4
13:58<andythenorth>but I keep doing OpenTTD docs and crap instead :)
13:59<Arveen>is there a write up on the forums what the goals are for v4 ?
14:00<andythenorth>not sure
14:01<andythenorth>let's say 'no'
14:02<Arveen>hehe, Ok
14:02<frosch123>i would guess the main feature is industries with more than 3 input or output cargos
14:03<Arveen>i still haven't done a game on v3 extreme .... might be time for that over the holidays
14:03<frosch123>or the realisation that they are not fun :p
14:03<andythenorth>they are fun :)
14:03<andythenorth>I was sceptical
14:04<andythenorth>but surprisingly, MOAR is better
14:04<Arveen>i agree
14:04<andythenorth>as long as you want to connect loads of stuff
14:04<Arveen>and for drop i just use one station anyway
14:04<andythenorth>don't play extreme though, it's awful
14:04<andythenorth>extreme is a case were MOAR is worse
14:05<andythenorth>also quak
14:05<Arveen>i enjoyed that steel-town setting
14:05<andythenorth>steeltown is significantly more intense in v4
14:06<supermop_work_>steeltown is the best 'city' industry set so far
14:07<andythenorth>frosch123: (dunno if you can help) I am trying to figure out what to do about eints
14:07<andythenorth>the 'problem' is I feel bad seeing people make translation commits that aren't then used, I have 3 possible ideas
14:07<andythenorth>(1) delete my projects from eints, it's not documented how to
14:08<andythenorth>(2) manually copy the changes from the devzone hg repos to git
14:08<andythenorth>(but that doesn't work in reverse)
14:08<andythenorth>(3) try and persuade someone to make changes to eints, but I'm not sure what they should be, if at all
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14:13<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7850: Change: [hotkeys] add missing keycodes for hotkeys.cfg https://git.io/JeMr4
14:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/JeMrg
14:22<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/JeMr1
14:26<frosch123>andythenorth: sorry, i wanted to migrate that stuff weeks ago
14:28<andythenorth>:)
14:28<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/JeMrh
14:30<andythenorth>anything I can do to help?
14:31*andythenorth BIAB
14:32<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/JeMoT
14:32<LordAro>parameter still needs documenting though
14:33<frosch123>a whole commit needs to be dropped :)
14:33<frosch123>though iirc eddi was waiting for test cases
14:33<LordAro>or that, yes :p
14:33<LordAro>would be nice to get all of the PRs from 2018 closed before 2020 :p
14:33<andythenorth>I might make some test cases later
14:34<andythenorth>that forum post contains some actual real world problems, instead of me just guessing
14:34<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro reopened issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory https://git.io/fhAdo
14:35<frosch123>"real world problems" :)
14:35<LordAro>i'm not entirely convinced #7311 is actually a bug
14:35<LordAro>just a bit of an oddity about how paths are handled
14:38<TrueBrain>andythenorth: enjoy :) Don't smile too much :P
14:43<frosch123>LordAro: 7311 only applies if you do not have libxdgbasedir
14:43<frosch123>so the code is probably untested, and probably also follows some legacy behaviour
14:57<andythenorth>TrueBrain: the biggest problem is knowing 'stop talking now'
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15:19<andythenorth>this is remarkable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBnP-014DNw
15:19<andythenorth>it cost 4m Euro
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15:34<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory https://git.io/fhAdo
15:34<frosch123>meh, so much text
15:35<frosch123>also, nothing is easy :p
15:36<LordAro>:)
15:36<andythenorth>drawing pixels for trains is easy
15:36<andythenorth>everything else seems to be hard :P
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15:39<frosch123>are these "add reaction emoticon to post" useful for strucuring? or are they just social bs?
15:39<LordAro>mostly just social bs
15:39<LordAro>they help prevent "+1" and "me too" comments though
15:40<frosch123>how silly, i can add them to my own posts :p
15:45<andythenorth>they confuse me
15:46<andythenorth>I start typing :) for "it's just the internet, we're all friends"
15:46<andythenorth>and I get some weird list of unrelated emojis
15:48<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7852: Feature: Show the name of the NewGRF in the build vehicle window. https://git.io/JeMKL
15:48<supermop_work_>i appreciate the variety of monorail and gondola emoji
15:48<frosch123>can't you see that in the debug newgrf gui?
15:51<andythenorth>not from buy menu
15:51<andythenorth>I have failed to see why it's necessary though
15:51<andythenorth>empathy failure :P
15:52<frosch123>hmm, i see a draw back of the purchase list tree groups
15:52<andythenorth>only one?
15:52<frosch123>stations used to be grouped by usage, then people started grouping them by newgrf (because stuff from other authors is bad?)
15:52<frosch123>same will happen with purchase list
15:53<frosch123>Program Files/Newgrf vendor/Newgrf set/Vehicle
15:55<andythenorth>I anticipated that one :P
15:55<andythenorth>I'm still not convinced by the tree idea, and it was my idea :P
15:56<andythenorth>something is weird about it https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9259/very-groupy.png
15:56<andythenorth>it's a very convoluted way to choose a livery :P
15:57<frosch123>apis are good if they can be used for stuff that was not anticipated, apis are bad if they can be used for stuff that was not intended :)
15:57<andythenorth>I did draw the most logical solution, based on committee decision of need
15:57<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9258/vehicle_options.png
15:57<andythenorth>but nobody seemed to like it :(
15:58<frosch123>andythenorth: i understood the suggestion that the tree node represents the last-built leaf, so you only need to expand if you really want to
15:58<andythenorth>yes
15:58<andythenorth>that was one of the appealing things
15:58<andythenorth>the spec so far appears to be:
15:59<andythenorth>(for the livery goal, not the groups option to achieve it)
15:59<andythenorth>- cannot use a hidden UI mechanism like ctrl-click
15:59<andythenorth>- cannot use existing liveries (cargo subtypes)
15:59<andythenorth>- must be obvious to player
15:59<andythenorth>- must be per vehicle
16:00<andythenorth>I thought the drop-downs mockup fulfilled all of those, but apparently it's not liked :P
16:00<frosch123>- must not have the same issues as cargo subtypes
16:00<andythenorth>- must include different, new, more interesting issues than cargo subtypes
16:00<andythenorth>the killer for me on the tree idea is....
16:01<andythenorth>...I could already just implement the feature of different liveries using different IDs, without the tree
16:01<andythenorth>but I haven't
16:01<andythenorth>it wouldn't do much harm to have a few engines repeated with different appearance
16:01<andythenorth>but somehow it's not compelling enough yet
16:03<andythenorth>also it will kill my compile time :P
16:03<andythenorth>I do already support 4 liveries for wagons though, just 1 buy menu entry :P https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9544/4%20liveries.png
16:03<andythenorth>random + depot flip
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16:12<andythenorth>:o https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=86412
16:12<andythenorth>:)
16:14<nielsm>of cour se has the minor issue that it obsoletes 15+ years of newgrf sprites
16:14<nielsm>and throws all the artists work into the corner
16:14<andythenorth>the 3rd thing I thought was 'can I redo FIRS for this?'
16:17<Wolf01><andythenorth> but nobody seemed to like it :( <- if only you could find a way to do the same without hiding the wagons...
16:17<andythenorth>and yet the menu has to be big enough to not be hidden...
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16:21<Wolf01>We need a bigger UI
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16:21<andythenorth>:P
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16:21<andythenorth>I suspect nobody finds the ctrl-click liveries in Horse 2
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16:21<Wolf01>Ha!
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16:22*andythenorth thinks of other ideas
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16:22<supermop_work_>nielsm: idk if it actually would make anything obsolete
16:22<LordArtoo>hmm
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16:23<supermop_work_>could you just skin random boxes with stretched versions of the legacy sprites ?
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16:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: You could add 'ctrl+click for different liveries' to the purchase description?
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16:27<andythenorth>I could
16:27<frosch123>supermop_work_: it works for all ground sprites, but for none of the building, industries, vehicles, ...
16:27<frosch123>only ground sprites have a fixed/known shape so that you can treat the sprite like a texture
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16:28<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws commented on pull request #7850: Change: [hotkeys] add missing keycodes for hotkeys.cfg https://git.io/JeMK7
16:28<frosch123>it's the same problem as for "rotate viewport by 90 degree" but more general
16:28<andythenorth>how about https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9545/vehicle_options_2.png ?
16:28<andythenorth>click the 'livery' button and get a new mode
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16:29<andythenorth>where simply clicking on the vehicle shows all the available options
16:29<andythenorth>modes work so well in UI :P
16:29<frosch123>also, ttd uses a lot of fake 3d, where dimensions are totally off. like vehicles actually not fitting under bridges
16:29<andythenorth>nice tech demo though :)
16:30<frosch123>it could be named "3TTD" :p
16:30<andythenorth>3TTD 2
16:31<andythenorth>the video does look good
16:33*andythenorth invents a tool
16:33<andythenorth>that can be selected, then click on vehicles to change livery :P
16:33<andythenorth>a spanner!
16:33<andythenorth>and a paintbrush!
16:34<andythenorth>one changes stats, the other colours
16:34<andythenorth>oh we could add an oil can!
16:34<andythenorth>and make servicing a micro-management task
16:36<frosch123>just use the vehicle refit tool
16:37<frosch123>you are reinventing cargo subtypes
16:37<andythenorth>it has the wrong icon!
16:37<andythenorth>that's just silly frosch123
16:37<frosch123>the problem of cargo subtypes is not the name "cargo subtype"
16:38<andythenorth>which of the various problems are we going to mention? :)
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16:38<andythenorth>I have already drawn an oilcan icon, now I will have to delete it :(
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16:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: FWIW, it's not unrealistic for DVTs to add power - Chiltern have gensets in theirs, which avoids ETS being drawn from traction power
16:40<andythenorth>same for cabbage in USA
16:41<andythenorth>I made my peace with it :)
16:41<FLHerne>There's also this thing, of course https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu3_ywNmHww
16:41<andythenorth>yes :)
16:41<andythenorth>JCB?
16:42<FLHerne>Yes
16:43<FLHerne>Why is the Happy Train a diesel railcar?
16:43<andythenorth>alternate universe :P
16:43<FLHerne>The One True Happy Train is the 365, and that's electric :P
16:44<andythenorth>I drew it before nielsm convinced me to add EMUs
16:44<andythenorth>and named it :P
16:45<andythenorth>I would say 'mistakes were made' but it's more just evolution :P
16:47*andythenorth wonders if users could paint their own livery
16:47<andythenorth>treat the colour as HSV, only modify the H value
16:47<andythenorth>per pixel
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16:48<FLHerne>Aaaaa
16:56*andythenorth bed
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16:57<milek7_>hm
16:57<milek7_>https://imgur.com/i5X2NwK.png
16:58<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] janisozaur opened pull request #7853: Improve MSVC ARM64 support https://git.io/JeM6l
17:02<frosch123>is that for old windows phones?
17:02<frosch123>msvc+arm does not ring a bell for me
17:02<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] janisozaur updated pull request #7853: Improve MSVC ARM64 support https://git.io/JeM6l
17:03<milek7_>microsoft sells some arm laptop
17:03<nielsm>MS is being less locking down on running own software on arm machines now than ther were with win8
17:08<supermop_work_>i read this as ' one arm laptop'
17:10<milek7_>hm, not only microsoft it seems
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17:39<Eddi|zuHause>grmpf, i won't be looking at #7000 now... remind me again like 3 days before christmas or so?
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20:27-!-adikt is "realname" on #openttd
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20:28-!-adikt is "realname" on #openttd
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20:37-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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21:57-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:13-!-supermop_work__ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:19-!-D-HUND is "Wowbagger" on #openttd #bitlbee
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22:38-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:47-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:47-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:50-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:55-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:55-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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22:59-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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23:05-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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23:06-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
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23:18-!-Arveen2 is "realname" on #openttd
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23:58-!-supermop_work_ is "A CIRC user" on #openttd
---Logclosed Tue Dec 03 00:00:08 2019