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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-12-05

---Logopened Thu Dec 05 00:00:11 2019
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02:49<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on
02:49<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #89: Obsolete form for adding Newgrf to
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06:50<nielsm>hmm, big challenge with this NoCalendar idea might be linkgraph/timetables
06:53<andythenorth>frigging timetables :)
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07:48<nielsm>and lots of complexities with service interval (and presentation of that) too
07:53*andythenorth tries to picture it all
07:54<andythenorth>can this ever work, without the pre-requisite of decoupling all cyclical actions from the calendar datetime?
07:59<andythenorth>what else works on days, besides servicing, timetables
08:00<andythenorth>anything in newgrf that works by comparing datetimes
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly the kind of problem that made any previous daylength patch fail
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09:31<Sacro>Don't mock my daylength patch :(
09:33<andythenorth>when I see the word 'sacro' now I just associate it with back pain :P
09:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so we're back at 'daylength can never work'?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, but it needs a kind of sophisticated and thorough approach that is really unlikely to emerge in a hobby project
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>(not that it would be any more likely in a professional project, with deadlines and such)
09:50<andythenorth>what a funny position to be boxed into
09:50<andythenorth>* players use daylength to address issues they percieve as real and important
09:50<andythenorth>* daylength "just works" in JGR
09:50<andythenorth>* daylength can never work in the real world
09:50<andythenorth>how odd :)
09:51<andythenorth>fallacies are strange and interesting
10:00<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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10:03<supermop_work>andythenorth: who says it 'just works'?
10:03<andythenorth>same as before, vocal posters on forums or reddit
10:04<andythenorth>likely a handful of posters
10:04<@planetmaker>the difference between "works for my use case" and "works for everyone and in every corner case"
10:05<@planetmaker>Also... can be done without accomodating everyone's needs... after all it's *adding* something, defaults remain
10:05<andythenorth>I used to play with multiple newgrf sets enabled :P
10:05<andythenorth>'just works'
10:05<andythenorth>until it doesn't
10:05<@planetmaker>in which case it's the newgrfs faults. not openttds :) :P
10:05<andythenorth>I think it was my fault tbh
10:06<@planetmaker>also: it's not exactly a requirement that existing newgrfs behave nicely with all daylength settings.
10:06<@planetmaker>It's absolutely ok to expose some variables for newgrfs to take into account daylength
10:06<@planetmaker>it's just a question of default settings. And adopting NewGRFs / OpenTTD settings, if they don't suit you. Like always
10:07<@planetmaker>there's no no-config solution which is good for everyone. There cannot be
10:08<andythenorth>I might just solve this myself
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> * daylength "just works" in JGR
10:43<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> * daylength can never work in the real world
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's a difference between "works for me", "works for a general audience" and "is sustainable/maintainable"
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>that difference is usually something like "takes 3 hours to implement" and "takes 3 months to implement"
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10:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: The people for whom it doesn't "just work" stop using and suggesting it :P
10:55<andythenorth>so we see a form of confirmation bias
10:55<andythenorth>I can't leave problems like this alone, it's like picking a scab :P
10:56<andythenorth>anyway, how shall I implement the parameter solution in newgrfs?
10:56<andythenorth>'length of each generation'?
10:56<andythenorth>'scaling factor'?
10:57<FLHerne>andythenorth: "Length of generation" is pointless and won't make anyone happy
10:57<andythenorth>pikka has solved this, where's the link :P
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10:57<FLHerne>The people who care about 'realism' want specific in-game dates, regardless of whether that makes any practical difference ;-)
10:57<FLHerne>Production scaling factor is probably the useful one
10:58<FLHerne>Either in vanilla as an alternative to that misuse of 'daylength', or to correct for it when people use daylength for intro dates and don't want an effective reduction in cargo
11:01<FLHerne>I remember seeing that, it's still wrong :P
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11:04<milek7_>i have git branch with my changes on top of earlier PR. PR was merged but squashed, and now i want to rebase only my commits onto tip of master
11:04<milek7_>is it possible to rebase it automatically, or i have to cherry-pick manually?
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11:08<andythenorth>we just need an "it's always 1965" button
11:08<milek7_>'calendar pause'
11:09<milek7_>groundhog day mode
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11:18<milek7_>ok, `git rebase --onto master last_commit_on_squashed_pr my_branch` did it
11:24<nielsm>andythenorth: yeah that's basically what I'm trying to do, but maybe I'm doing it the wrong way around
11:25*andythenorth wonders how many places the month-year is shown :P
11:25<andythenorth>and if we can hide them all
11:25<andythenorth>I could invent 12 fake month names
11:25<andythenorth>and we could just cycle them, whilst not incremementing the year
11:31<@planetmaker>January, Jabuary, February, Mebruary, March, Aprirch, April, Maypril, May, ...
11:36<andythenorth>nice :)
11:39<Sacro>Lousy smarch weather
11:41<@planetmaker>Currently it's quite typical Nocember weather
11:42<@planetmaker>quite a bit colder than in Octember
11:42<@planetmaker>or even Septober
11:44<andythenorth>fake months, and it's always 1965
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: use the month names from the french revolution?
11:45<andythenorth>we should have done levels
11:45<andythenorth>games like Township are just levels, no dates
11:46<@planetmaker>hm... Hartung, Hornung, Lenzing, Ostermond, Maien, Brachet, Heuet, Ernting, Herbstmond, Gilbhard, Nebelung und Julmond?
11:46<Sacro>Nebelung sounds painful
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11:47<andythenorth>level 7: you get the Chaney Jubilee
11:47<@planetmaker>translates to foggy-month
11:47<@planetmaker>or misty-month. whatever
11:52<supermop_work>13 month calendar?
11:52<andythenorth>28 month calendar
11:52<andythenorth>maybe that's the serious solution :P
11:53<supermop_work>i always find it hard to believe that people at kodak were actually using this
11:55<andythenorth>how many months per year: '256'
11:56<andythenorth>solves everything no?
11:56<andythenorth>all 'per month' 'every x days' keep working
11:56<andythenorth>vehicle intro *year* is unaffected
11:56<@planetmaker>hm... 2*12=28? :P
11:56<andythenorth>arbitrary numbers :P
11:56<andythenorth>newgrf keeps working
11:56<andythenorth>except for seasonal snowline :(
11:57<@planetmaker>except yearly expenses etc :P
11:57<andythenorth>my idea is dead, it will break seasonal snowline
11:57<@planetmaker>except introduction dates
11:57<andythenorth>intro dates would be fine
11:58<@planetmaker>well, solution really is *day* length :)
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i've no clue what problem you're trying to solve, but it's almost certainly not one anyone who uses daylength would be looking for
11:58<@planetmaker>which can be ticks/day
11:59<andythenorth>yes, but we've established that daylength is impossible Eddi|zuHause
11:59<andythenorth>so what might satisfice?
11:59<andythenorth>we've also established that daylength in JGR satisfices, even though it's known not to work
12:00<@planetmaker>and includes to adopt monthly, yearly, and "tick"ly callbacks by whatever scaling deemed appropriate for whatever function
12:00<@planetmaker>making the scaling configurable basically solves it... everyone can set the things to bug where they want :P
12:00<andythenorth>the perceived problem is solved - comprehensively - by a non-working solution
12:00<andythenorth>so what can we do equivalently, given that nobody is prepared to just merge the non-working solution
12:01<andythenorth>JGR has won because of daylength, the forums and reddit are quite clear
12:01<andythenorth>they don't complain about daylength not working, they are adamant it works
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: any gameplay that is currently tied to a recurring cycle, must be reviewed and explicitly tied to a "tick" or a "day" cycle
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12:02<supermop_work>Eddi|zuHause: andy is just being willfully difficult again?
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only after that is done, you can reliably add a setting for daylength
12:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the people who play JGR - often for daylength reasons - are satisfied with it. Doesn't mean others who want a daylength want that daylength. Sample bias at its best
12:03<andythenorth>they're not reporting that though?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they're never reporting that.
12:03<andythenorth>squeaky wheel gets the oil
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: look at any mention of "well tested" in the logs/forum
12:04<andythenorth>supermop_work nah I just want it solved
12:04<@planetmaker>why should I report anything about something I haven't really tried? Or what I know is designed to work for some way but not generally? It's measured by different standards
12:04<andythenorth>and nothing gets solved by attempting to use a solution that has already been defined as unworkable
12:04<andythenorth>it needs an oblique approach
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12:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: dunno, the "do nothing" approach seems to be working fine for the last 14-ish years
12:05<jgr_>My patchpack is not about daylength, it really isn't that big an issue in the big scheme of things
12:05<@planetmaker>it is an excellent test field. But it is not expected to solve every problem
12:06<@planetmaker>I'm not claiming it is, jgr_ :) But it *is* a playground for people who love daylength - at least in the form implemented
12:06<@planetmaker>doesn't say all use it :)
12:07<@planetmaker>and ofc those who don't use it... don't report any opinion on it either
12:08*andythenorth wonders about a timeless mode
12:09<@planetmaker>same thing, same problems
12:09<nielsm>you still need to keep _some_ form of time
12:09<andythenorth>FIRS mostly ignores any dates, because industry transitions just do not work
12:09<andythenorth>years / dates /s
12:09<@planetmaker>they work for default oil
12:09<andythenorth>FIRS has some stupid legacy stuff like date-sensitive graphics
12:09<FLHerne>supermop_work: Yeah, definitely
12:10<FLHerne>planetmaker: Everyone hates them for default oil ;-)
12:10<@planetmaker>I don't consider date-sensitive graphics "stupid legacy"
12:10<nielsm>at the timescale (speed) TT plays at, more than one or two industry transitions don't really make sense
12:10<@planetmaker>FLHerne, agreed, it's not the feature I'm looking for in default industries... it's annoying :P
12:10<FLHerne>That's something where daylength might actually allow for different mechanics
12:10<nielsm>and the oil wells => oil platforms transition made somewhat more sense in TTO when its 1930 start than the TTD 1950 start
12:11*andythenorth wonders about deleting 5 of the 6 generations in Iron Horse
12:11<andythenorth>it would be much smaller grf, saves bandwidth + compile time
12:11<FLHerne>andythenorth: Personally, the most tempting things in JGRPP have nothing to do with daylength
12:11<andythenorth>let's see
12:11<nielsm>andythenorth: define a railtype for each generation then you can just build a depot for just the generation you want to play with
12:12<@planetmaker>nielsm, yes. And it highly depends on how one wants to play. Actually the transition is probably more fun, when you have slower time. It comes too quickly
12:12<FLHerne>andythenorth: Signal routing restrictions, bridges over stations and template-based train replacement are all much nicer to me
12:12<@planetmaker>hehe... the day when OpenTTD is bandwidth limited will still need to come.
12:13<FLHerne>andythenorth: I *still* think you're getting hung up on daylength out of all proportion to its actual impact ;-)
12:13<FLHerne>Not that it's not worth discussing
12:14<jgr_>Trying to simultaneously solve all time scaling issues for all users is a non-starter
12:14<FLHerne>But this "JGR has won because..." and "everyone has switched to because..." is counterfactual hyperbole
12:14<andythenorth>I'm talking about a handful of very vocal users
12:14<andythenorth>for which daylength is the primary benefit
12:15<jgr_>The existing economy, time and scaling is entirely arbitary and it is OK for modifications to also be arbitrary
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>wtf does Lutris exist for? i've never clicked on a lutris install script, and had the resulting game actually run properly
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem with including daylength into the main game is the part of the audience which is NOT this vocal core group
12:18<andythenorth>I don't know about serving the apparent needs of people who aren't asking for anything
12:18<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Well, if it's optional...
12:18<andythenorth>not sure how we'd discover those
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so, step 1 of including a daylength patch is "make sure, nothing changes for people who don't want daylength", and step 2 is "make sure it works for people who have no clue they want daylength, but randomly enable it anyway"
12:18<andythenorth>we can anticipate needs ourselves of course
12:19<andythenorth>that's a valid design approach
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the needs of the vocal minority is satisfied with JGR-PP existing
12:20<FLHerne>Just checking before I try doing it: in NML, is there any particular reason why the various operators aren't just subclasses of BinOp?
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: no clue, i wasn't involved with the design of that
12:21<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: they're not, they need the industry grfs patched
12:21<FLHerne>There's all sorts of behaviour `if isinstance(op, nmlop.ADD): ... elif isinstance(op, nmlop.SUB): ...` that would be much nicer if they just implemented it themselves
12:21<FLHerne>('just' :P)
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you're saying the existing implementation doesn't actually implement the requirements? then what would be solved by merging the existing implementation?
12:22<andythenorth>nobody is going to merge that
12:22<andythenorth>the oblique solution is needed
12:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: If they want industry grfs patched to counteract the current effect, then that's because they don't want that kind of meh Eddi just said it
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>then what's the fuzz about?
12:23<andythenorth>finding a solution o/c
12:23<andythenorth>it's a game
12:23<jgr_>I don't see why industry GRFs should need to be patched
12:23<andythenorth>production is too low
12:23<jgr_>Making that a requirement would make the feature dead before it ever got off the ground
12:25<jgr_>Is that a problem?
12:25<andythenorth>anyway, I think I'll end up doing what I was going to do all along :P
12:26<andythenorth>which is add configurable intro dates to all my vehicle grfs
12:26<andythenorth>nobody has been able to identify a better alternative
12:27<jgr_>For me at least, vehicle into dates are a non-issue as I usually start the game when all that finished anyhow
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12:29<FLHerne>andythenorth: configurable production + existing daylength is much closer to players' demands than configurable intro dates + vanilla
12:30<@planetmaker>yeah, probably
12:30<FLHerne>The "daylength for low production!" people are mostly happy with existing daylength
12:30<@planetmaker>well. configurable production + configurable daylength (which exists, right?)
12:30<andythenorth>the intro dates aren't to solve daylength
12:30<FLHerne>The "daylength for realism!" people, when not intersecting the above, wouldn't be satisfied with different intro dates because they aren't realistic :P
12:30<jgr_>Configurable production doesn't exist, as far as I am aware
12:30<andythenorth>and if they don't solve daylength, I won't explain them as such
12:30<andythenorth>this was helpful
12:31<andythenorth>I think I'll just copy Pikka's 'generation lock' feature
12:31<@planetmaker>xxx for realism is a thing which does not fly with any feature in OpenTTD :P
12:31<FLHerne>jgr_: I mean, if andy patches his grfs, patching FIRS to add configurable production (as per that thread) would make people happier than patching the vehicle dates
12:31<FLHerne>planetmaker: You'd be surprised?
12:32<@planetmaker>by what?
12:32<FLHerne>There's, like, UKRS2+ and WAS and BROS or whatever its successor is
12:32<FLHerne>And the entire screenshot subforum
12:32<FLHerne>And all of my savegames
12:32<@planetmaker>yes... but realistically speaking, it's not realistic :)
12:32<jgr_>Realism is relative
12:32<@planetmaker>it's just graphics which somewhat resemble to look like real vehicles
12:33<@planetmaker>but their acceleration is strange as time and distance is strange
12:33<FLHerne>planetmaker: It's weird how suspension of disbelief can stretch to cover everything being isometric pixels, but not intricate details of vehicle types :P
12:33<jgr_>Comparing stuff from openttdcoop to much of the screenshot, it is easy to see which is intended to approximate realism
12:33<@planetmaker>they even change length when they drive -- or // or \\ or ||
12:33<@planetmaker>depends :)
12:34<FLHerne>AAUI, the majority of the "slower intro dates" demand is specifically to play with all of the odd variants in the "comprehensive [country] trainset" grfs
12:34<@planetmaker>well, coop certainly does not go for realism on its servers. Usually.
12:34<FLHerne>Which is why andy's proposed solution doesn't solve anything
12:34<@planetmaker>and yes @FLHerne . And I can very well understand that
12:35<andythenorth>what I haven't figured out is how to do progression with a generation lock
12:35<FLHerne>The people wanting it are people like, say, me, and I don't play IH much anyway for the reasons we discussed a few weeks ago
12:35<@planetmaker>(some) people want a slow game and go through the 1920s, 1930s such that they can actually enjoy the vehicles without them being obsolete after 30 minutes of real time gameplay
12:35<@planetmaker>(or whatever years it is)
12:35<FLHerne>[afk, sorry]
12:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: that's why I was thinking of a configurable generation length
12:36<andythenorth>or generation lock
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12:36<andythenorth>I supposed 'vehicles never expire' doesn't solve it?
12:36<andythenorth>also Iron Horse is completely incompatible with 'vehicles never expire' :P
12:36<@planetmaker>yes... that somewhat would solve it. But not idealy. Dates are all wrong etc. Realism means then to have approx. the correct date displayed
12:37<@planetmaker>if you don't care about date, I do as jgr said: start after all vehicles are present, and buy whatever suits me
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12:37<@planetmaker>be that slow and early or fast and late
12:38<andythenorth>I don't care about the date
12:38<@planetmaker>then daylength is a non-issue for you
12:38<andythenorth>this discussion shows I can just discount daylength
12:38<@planetmaker>just play with vehicles never expire and all is fine
12:38<andythenorth>it's of no relevance
12:39<andythenorth>Iron Horse is incompatible with 'never expire' :)
12:39<@planetmaker>contact the author and complain :P
12:39<andythenorth>I could just patch the grf locally :P
12:39<@planetmaker>I'm sure you got the contact ;)
12:39<andythenorth>version 2.5: only vehicles for 1960 are included
12:39<andythenorth>version 2.6: I got bored, now I'm playing 1870
12:39<@planetmaker>hm... t(pi)... variable time with loops
12:40<andythenorth>maybe I should split Iron Horse into multiple grfs
12:40<andythenorth>1 per generation
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>(i think we had that discussion already)
12:42<andythenorth>I considered 1 grf per roster alternately
12:42<andythenorth>not sure which way to cut it up
12:43<andythenorth>I wish we could package multiple grfs into a single installable wrapper
12:44<nielsm>3 settings per generation, "enabled", "year introduced", "year expires"
12:45<andythenorth>that works for a single-roster grf
12:45<andythenorth>it collapses when there's a choice between 'British-ish trains', 'American-ish trains'
12:45<andythenorth>which have different tech trees
12:45<andythenorth>this points to splitting Iron Horse by roster
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13:00<Eddi|zuHause>(no, this points to the approach chosen not being the correct solution either)
13:00<jgr_>Unfortunately there is no singular "correct" solution
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>i always wanted a series of "game scale" options, of which daylength would be a part
13:03<Wolf01>I can't understand how IH would be incompatible with never expires
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that's a case of "andy uses words differently than normal people"
13:03<Wolf01>Oh ok
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: what he (probably) means is "the purchase list gets too long for my taste"
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>we already have a game scale option: plane speed
13:04<Wolf01>Hide vehicles then, you can do it,,,
13:05<Wolf01>Yes, I thought to port it to other vehicles too when I made the last daylength attempt
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>other options could be: production rates, decay speed (ratings, reliability), ...
13:08<Wolf01>If we make everything parametric and then pass a multiplier/divider, wouldn't it set the entire game pace as one could want?
13:08<jgr_>It would be easy to end up adding a lot of knobs which users then don't know what to do with
13:09<Wolf01>No, just one, you speed up or slow down, everything
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with too few knobs is you get endless arguing what the knob should do or shouldn't do
13:09<Wolf01>If you really want you can bury the settings on the config file like PBS ones, but on the options you only have one master value
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>which has happened to almost every daylength patch so far
13:10<@planetmaker>Wolf01, yes
13:10<@planetmaker>definitely not as part of the basic settings :P
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>i see no problem with having several settings, as long as each has a clear domain and a clear description
13:11<Wolf01>The main problem is that if you configure the game in a way the economy doesn't scale up with speed it's your fault
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>oh, we also have another game scale setting already: cargo weight multiplier
13:11<@planetmaker>also yes
13:12<@planetmaker>summary settings might be exposed in UI. But the detailed scaling might be cfg-only
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>i see no point in hiding the settings in cfg. you do that for things which would be dangerous to change for uninformed people
13:12<jgr_>The problem with cfg-only detail settings is that non-default values are rarely if ever tested
13:13<@planetmaker>then make it UI :)
13:13<jgr_>It is easy to crash OpenTTD by careless changing of some the signal pathfinder penalty settings, for example
13:14<@planetmaker>hm :)
13:14<Wolf01>If you want to fine-tune something you should know wath you are doing
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: maybe, but that doesn't really apply here
13:14<Wolf01>And not samu-setting end scale values to see what happens
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>a propos end-scale: some daylength patches were known for overflowing tick counters and stuff
13:16<Wolf01>Yes, I know
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>which is another of those elaborate under-the-hood stuffs, that's escalating the problem from "3 hours" to "3 months"
13:20<jgr_>At least for my implementation, the most cumbersome part was timetables, followed by making various fields wider
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13:22<jgr_>Including the NewGRF layer in this would probably push timescaled well beyond 3 months though
13:24<jgr_>For the existing daylength patches, not involving the NewGRF layer is probably a bigger design influence than what people thought the knob should do
13:34<@peter1138>Oh! A wild jgr!
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>jgr_: i can imagine. however, andy's actionism is more like a boss entering the room shouting "why isn't anything done yet", which doesn't help anyone who might actually be working on it
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13:55<Wolf01>So, what's your excuse now?
13:56<andythenorth>what was the question?
13:57<Wolf01><Wolf01> I can't understand how IH would be incompatible with never expires
13:57<andythenorth>oh way too many vehicles
13:57<andythenorth>like a stupid number
13:57<andythenorth>partly because the game runs too fast
13:58<andythenorth>@calc 84 + 314
13:58<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 398
13:58<andythenorth>yeah way too many, I could just delete 50% of them
13:59<Wolf01>Make a setting "only the vehicles I play often"
13:59<Wolf01>Is it finished or there are still dummy graphics on some vehicles?
14:00<andythenorth>the released version 100% of sprites are complete
14:00<andythenorth>some cargos are very generic
14:01<Wolf01>Is there a setting to filter out the wagon sizes?
14:01<frosch123>add a setting: roaster size, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% of vehicles are introduced, rest is skipped, randomised by game seed
14:01<andythenorth>Wolf01: you started all this :P
14:02<frosch123>Wolf01: players can already hide individual vehicles from purchase list
14:02<andythenorth>frosch123: I seriously considered random roster :P
14:02<Wolf01>I would always use one size, medium or large, I doubt to use small ones if not on early ages
14:02<andythenorth>I tested a parameter for that
14:03<andythenorth>forums said 'no need' but
14:03<andythenorth>if you play test Horse and want it, I'll add it
14:03<Wolf01><andythenorth> Wolf01: you started all this <- I know, I'm one of the top activists for daylength
14:03<andythenorth>"wagons: all | smallest | medium | largest"
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> 2018 <-- more like 2006? :p
14:10<andythenorth>I didn't look that far back :)
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>[So Jun 25 2006] [19:55:44] <Wolf01>
14:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: see if you can find the patch you wrote that resets the year on a tick-tock :P
14:13<andythenorth>you denied all knowledge last time
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm fairly convinced i had no involvement in that
14:13<andythenorth>I can't find it in logs
14:13<andythenorth>there's an equivalent patch in forums
14:16<andythenorth>if game progression was 50% of current rate, I could maybe cut out 50% of Iron Horse :P
14:16<andythenorth>and remove the fairly small tedious stats progression steps
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>not quite following your logic
14:21<andythenorth>there is a decent length of game which is about 80 years, approximately
14:22<andythenorth>in real-world clock time
14:22<andythenorth>and because realism, that requires new trains every 30 years or so
14:22<andythenorth>which imposes a lot of generations
14:22<andythenorth>and the desire to use early or late stage tech extends that either end
14:24<andythenorth>to play for the same number of hours IRL, and have the in-game year advance at half the rate
14:24<andythenorth>means that fewer generations are needed
14:25<andythenorth>which means fewer fine-grained stat increases
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>still not making any sense
14:30<nielsm>fewer generations means longer between generation changes, slower game year advance means same number of game years take longer real time
14:31<nielsm>combining them means four times as long real time between generations
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>but... those things are completely orthogonal?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>why would a change in one area facilitate/nececitate/enable the other?
14:33<andythenorth>eh what?
14:33<andythenorth>playing for the same amount of RL time
14:33<andythenorth>game year advances 1930-2010
14:34<andythenorth>or 1930-1970
14:34<andythenorth>the first option requires many more trains
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>but, you're now splitting your audience into people who want 1930-1970 or 1970-2010, each demanding a logical game progression
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>of early, mid and late game
14:38<nielsm>well then what even defines a set of currently available vehicles etc. as being early/mid/late game?
14:38<andythenorth>my grfs currently cover 1860-2030 and it's too much
14:38<andythenorth>I do 1860 because Dan MacK really wanted 1860 start
14:39<andythenorth>and I go to 2030 because it was requested
14:39<andythenorth>but it would be better to do 1930-2030 and that be all
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's no reason why these requests would disappear with daylength available
14:39<andythenorth>maybe I should just do that, Eddi|zuHause is correct
14:39<frosch123>should newgrf phone home to report which vehicles are used? :p
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in CETS i have parameters for each era (pre-1920, 1920-50, 1950-1990, post-1990), which you can enable and disable at will
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and the last enabled era will have expanded model life
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>while each era will still have some progression within it
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>problem is, almost nobody will set these parameters
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>and i have too many options for each era (what you would call rosters)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>too many to pick a default
14:44<andythenorth>does that give Wolf01 infinite steam era?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, as you would have to duplicate that for all other vehicles, buildings, whatever
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14:49<andythenorth>yes but I can....
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14:53<andythenorth>I can do ships, trains, RVs, all with same parameter
14:58<andythenorth>maybe not planes :P
15:01<andythenorth>how long does Train Fever run?
15:04<nielsm>1850 to 2020 or there about
15:04<nielsm>but I don't recall exactly how fast in-game year passes
15:05<nielsm>(it's also hard to judge with the poor performance that game has in general)
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15:11<andythenorth>ok so nielsm have you concluded the NoCalendar is too hard?
15:11<andythenorth>or just a lot of work?
15:11<nielsm>a lot of work
15:22<Wolf01>I think I'm too much tired to do anything
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15:28<andythenorth>so we concluded....
15:28<andythenorth>* daylength is possible just a lot of work?
15:28<andythenorth>* Iron Horse is too big
15:28<andythenorth>* confirmation bias exists
15:30<frosch123>* there is not one ottd to rule them all
15:30<andythenorth>that's in the game goals :D
15:32<andythenorth>shall I do a company colour version of these wagons, as separate IDs?
15:32<andythenorth>I've run out of ctrl-click bits for them :P
15:32<andythenorth>it's a short supply :P
15:33<frosch123>you can turn iron horse into a lock picking game
15:33<frosch123>player has to flip 2nd, 5th, 7th vehicle to unlock some special sprite
15:34<andythenorth>I was considering modifier vehicles
15:34<andythenorth>did V do that already?
15:34<frosch123>have you considered implementing regearing by flipping n vehicles? with only 4 wagons you can get 16 regearing modes
15:34<andythenorth>like a vehicle to set the livery, which goes invisible
15:34<andythenorth>not sure I can check flip with offsets?
15:35<andythenorth>in cb36?
15:35<Wolf01>The short ones look like copy-pasted bits of the long ones... oh wait, they are :P
15:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: funny that :P
15:35<andythenorth>I have now pretty much drawn
15:35<frosch123>you can't in cb36, but you do not need cb36 for livery
15:35<andythenorth>do for regearing though?
15:35<andythenorth>I have now pretty much drawn all the OO trains I had as a child
15:35<andythenorth>and all the ones I wanted in the catalogue
15:36<andythenorth>so life goals are complete
15:36<frosch123>yeah, too bad, regearing wont work :)
15:36<andythenorth>sad sad times
15:36<andythenorth>regearing, change main engine, derate engine for reliability, change traction motors, add or remove ballast weight
15:37<andythenorth>change springs for maximum speed
15:37<andythenorth>isolate or enable carriage electric supply
15:37<andythenorth>such realisms
15:38<andythenorth>remind me, why aren't liveries (subtypes) a good idea?
15:38<frosch123>for your purpose cargo subtypes are the ideal solution
15:39<andythenorth>I must use them!
15:39<andythenorth>I particularly like how they work with consist of mixed vehicles
15:39<nielsm>but they don't work with auto-refit, right?
15:39<frosch123>their downsides apply to the alternatives as well, but they were no concern to you
15:39<Wolf01>Time to wreck IH?
15:40<andythenorth>when a consist has different vehicles with multiple subtypes, the menu is so...usable :)
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15:41<frosch123>nielsm: ottd is quite smart with matching subtypes, a lot of stuff actually works
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15:44<nielsm>I should go sleep, night
15:45<andythenorth>frosch123: how about a magic hotkey to toggle 1CC / 2CC? o_O
15:46<andythenorth>if enough silly things are said, one might stick :P
15:46<frosch123>just use palette animation
15:46<frosch123>even V didn't animate the rainbow on the slugs, so you can beat him to that
15:48<andythenorth>taste the rainbow
15:49<andythenorth>user-selectable palette cycle :P
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15:52<Wolf01>Make engine front change color depending on current speed
15:53*andythenorth wonders what var 47 is for
15:53<andythenorth>oh not 47, F2, I misread wiki
15:53*andythenorth wonders what var F2 is for
15:55<andythenorth>oh callback 36 can write prop 25?
15:55<andythenorth>so trains have perm. storage?
15:59<andythenorth>only readable with var 42, not ideal :)
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>(i feel we had this discussion already)
15:59<frosch123>F2 is the persistent storage that is written when selecting a cargo subtype
16:00<frosch123>i have never seen a convincing usecase for prop 25
16:01<andythenorth>it's a weird prop
16:02<andythenorth>anyway, I wanted to set prop 25 when flipping the vehicle, but nvm :)
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17:30<FLHerne>What exactly does nml STORE_TEMP() do [and what's the address range] ?
17:30<FLHerne>(plan B as always is 'read the source', but might as well ask
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17:33<frosch123>you give it a register and a value
17:33<frosch123>it stores the value in the register
17:33<frosch123>you use that to pass values between switches
17:34<frosch123>and to insert parameters into production callbacks and sprite layouts
17:34<frosch123>address range is 0 to 127 iirc
17:35<frosch123>the other half is used by nml to store temporary values in nested expressiosn
17:36<frosch123>you can compare them to stack variables in other languages
17:37<FLHerne>Oh, the "other half" bit was the thing I missed, I think
17:38<frosch123>when you run nml it outputs some statistics at the end
17:38<frosch123>one of those tells you how many temporary registers were used to generate expressions
17:39<frosch123> <- search for "\2sto 1A 20"
17:40<+glx>oh nice a free HL :)
17:40<frosch123>they are used to store the results of (...) while evaluating the next (...)
17:41<frosch123>"free" as in, you have nothing to do for it? :p
17:42<+glx> can help too
17:42<FLHerne>Was just reading that
17:43<FLHerne>Are they separate from the parameters that actionD reads/writes?
17:43<frosch123>registers 100-10F are write-only registers for large callback results
17:43<frosch123>yes, actiond is like "static const"
17:43<frosch123>only done during initialisation and then constant
17:44<+glx>static but not always conts
17:44<frosch123>action2 registers are stack variables. only valid during callbacks, discarded after each callback
17:44<FLHerne>I thought so, but "used by nml to store temporary values in nested expressions" sounds like the actionD chains that nml creates to do that
17:45<+glx>some nml action D could be done directly in action 2
17:45<frosch123>yes, nml also needs actiond registers for "temporary" values, but technically they are "static"
17:46<frosch123>ok, let's say actiond is like "consteval"
17:46<+glx>most of the time I see action D then action 6 for something that could be implemented in the varact2
17:47<frosch123>so, actiond is preferred over action2 whenever possible, since it is only evaluated once
17:47<frosch123>glx: that's optimisation
17:47<+glx>but I guess it's also easier to handle param access in only one way :)
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17:54*andythenorth draws some pixels
17:54<andythenorth>expended far too many silly words today :)
17:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: "one grf per roster" sounds like a very good idea
17:55<andythenorth>there is a logic to it
17:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: If nothing else, because a surprisingly high proportion of players don't know about grf parameters
17:56<andythenorth>causes some naming issues :P
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17:57<andythenorth>wonder if I can compile multiple from one repo
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18:28<andythenorth>:o I could do cargo sensitive engine liveries
18:28*andythenorth never thought of that
18:28<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
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18:31<FLHerne>But why?
18:31<FLHerne>Railfreight with appropriate sector badges? P
18:31<FLHerne>Of course, you'd have to redraw everything in 4x zoom for anyone to notice
18:32<FLHerne>Also, would the engine repaint itself when doing refit-at-station?
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 06 00:00:12 2019