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#openttd IRC Logs for 2020-01-13

---Logopened Mon Jan 13 00:00:07 2020
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01:18<crazystacy>hm. just noticed that timidity(?) is eating up all my cpu when i enabled music
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02:24<andythenorth>so my big cdist network is....realistic
02:27<andythenorth>8 big cities connected by a fast spine
02:28<andythenorth>7 peripheral small towns
02:28<andythenorth>trams, metro, buses, local trains or ships as feeders
02:29<andythenorth>town growth is nerfed (towns can't build roads, growth setting is 'slow')
02:30<andythenorth>it all works great, except lots of my vehicles lose money
02:30<andythenorth>due to negative transfer income :D
02:31<andythenorth>in some cases, the more I faff with orders to make them travel loaded, the more money they lose :D
02:31<andythenorth>and if I scrap them, there are fewer pax on the network, so my other trains earn less
02:31<andythenorth>Pikka: very realism, transport network effects :x ^
02:32<Pikka>tres :)
02:32<andythenorth>it's like every case study ever about crtitical mass in a metro system
02:32<Pikka>it's still more fun to leave cdist off imo ;)
02:32<andythenorth>I was testing how broken it is
02:32<andythenorth>it's quite broken
02:33<andythenorth>incidentally have you played....
02:33<andythenorth>it's basically cdist, with weirdly unsettling procedural music
02:33<Pikka>not for a very long time
02:35<andythenorth>also lots of Horse trains are losing money
02:35<Pikka>horse seems quite expensive to run
02:36<andythenorth>it is a bit
02:37<andythenorth>I did a big test of costs last year
02:38<andythenorth>everything is scaled using railcar costs as base
02:38<andythenorth>but only for point-point, fully loaded :x
02:38<andythenorth>I didn't account for transfer negative income or frequent part-load
02:39<andythenorth>so....complicated variable running costs then? :D
02:42<Pikka>simple variable is nice, 1/4 when stationary. makes little industrial shunts viable.
02:45*andythenorth looks at costs
02:48<andythenorth>they're betweeen 10% and 50% higher than UKRS 3
02:49<andythenorth>for pretty equivalent stats
02:53<Pikka> if it's any use
02:54<andythenorth>is that manually decided, or a formula?
02:56<Pikka>formula, fiddled til it gave reasonable numbers :)
02:56<Pikka>purchase cost is
02:56<Pikka>10 + ((Tons * 50) + (HP * 30) / 1500) - ((Intro Year - 1900) / 10) + (Capacity / 10)
02:56<Pikka>running cost is
02:56<Pikka>10 + ((MPH * 400) + (HP * 25) / 1500) - ((Intro Year - 1900) / 10) + (Capacity / 10)
02:57<andythenorth>looks long, but it's mostly comments
02:57<andythenorth>approach is ~same as yours, magic numbers vary
02:58<andythenorth>so I deliberately scaled railcar costs
02:58<andythenorth>otherwise there is a logical conclusion that all trains should just be railcars
02:58<andythenorth>which is boring
02:58<andythenorth>but I might have to tweak
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02:59<Pikka>mine uses the same formula for everything. Railcars cost more because of the passenger capacity, but less because they're invariably underpowered
02:59*andythenorth will think on
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03:22<crazystacy>i tried to add japanese town/city names, but it's still the default
03:22<crazystacy>can't change in settings either
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03:41<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7870: Change: improved english tooltips
03:42<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle
04:35<Pikka>crazystacy, activate the grf, then change the town names in "game options"
04:35<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle
04:35<Pikka>changing town names is a bit of a faff, but that's legacy TTD UI stuff :)
04:39<andythenorth>101 in UKRS 99: 80 pax, 600hp, 70mph, £7175 / year
04:39<andythenorth>101 in Horse: 80 pax, 600hp, 75mph, £8388 / year
04:40*andythenorth can't remember if base cost changes are grf local
04:41<Pikka>I think they are unless the grf contains no vehicles, or some magic like that
04:41<andythenorth>seems I don't mess up your costs with Horse, so that's ok
04:41*andythenorth considers renaming it Horsie-Worsie
04:42<andythenorth>anyway that railcar is my baseline model for costs, so I'll adjust it to match UKRS
04:42<crazystacy>Pikka, i can't change town names
04:42<andythenorth>of the evils, 'printing money' is less bad than 'my sandbox trains make negative profits'
04:42<crazystacy>"japanese" is greyed out
04:42<crazystacy>it's on the top but grey
04:43<crazystacy>oh. i have to change before i start?
04:43<crazystacy>ooh :P
04:43<Pikka>yes, you can't change the town names in a running game :)
04:43<crazystacy>yeah that's what confused me. i didn't know where the not in game game options was
04:44<crazystacy>i never even noticed the AI/Game script button, or Highscore, or anything, until now
04:44<crazystacy>hmm. another question. i am trying to get a really mountainous map with water. so basically just water and mountains. no flat ground. but even with alpinist + high water it's mostly flat fields :/
04:44<crazystacy>and max height is 50
04:45<Pikka>try fiddling with "variety distribution" and "smoothness"
04:46<Pikka>lower variety distribution will give you a more consistenly hilly map
04:46<crazystacy>i was on this german "hard server" which was basically just hills
04:46<crazystacy>maybe i can get a heightmap
04:47<crazystacy>ah. variety was it. i had it to high
04:47<andythenorth>Pikka: buy menu run cost is £7175, when travelling (unloaded) it's £7000, probably fine, but expected?
04:47<Pikka>probably a nfo bug
04:47<Pikka>the 101?
04:50<Pikka>odd :)
04:50<andythenorth>oof, now my pax coaches are too expensive
04:51<andythenorth>railcar costs same as coach to run
04:51<andythenorth>Pikka: you are very generous with wagon costs :D
04:52<Pikka>hah, HST super cheap to run... there's a bug there somewhere. :)
04:52<Pikka>am I?
04:56<Pikka>oh, no, the HST isn't bugged. I was looking at the wrong number.
04:58<andythenorth>@calc 222/83
04:58<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2.67469879518
04:59<Pikka>just the 101, no idea why. :)
04:59<andythenorth>my wagons are ~3x more to run
05:03<Pikka>the 101, 1959 EMU and BREL EMU cost slightly less to run
05:03<Pikka>I bet it's a rounding error with double-headed locos and the callback
05:04<Pikka>those three all have odd-number running costs, so they lose one
05:04<Pikka>the IC125 and sprinter are even numbers so they're fine
05:08<andythenorth>probably fine
05:08<Pikka>I could bump them up by 1. Or just assume no-one but you will look that closely :)
05:09<Pikka>I wonder if it's not even the callback, if that's a bug that affects double-headed trains in general? :)
05:13<andythenorth>I only noticed because I'm comparing across 2 grfs :P
05:41<crazystacy>hmm, YETI sure is interesting :P
05:53<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Change: improved english tooltips
05:53<Pikka>"interesting" :)
05:55<crazystacy>i think it said you made it?
05:55<andythenorth>V453000 made it
05:55<crazystacy>oh. pikka made something else
05:55<crazystacy>as i said that i bit into a tomato and got juice all over my wall and laptop screen
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05:56*andythenorth makes Horses cheaper
05:57<crazystacy>which is the grf with actual horses?
05:58<crazystacy>i tried a server like that, it was quite gruelling
06:03<hythlodaeus>I appreciate the people who try to make openTTD an historical game, but why would you attempt to operate a transportation company using only horse carriages is beyond me :D
06:04<crazystacy>well i really really liked it until i realised how slow they were. if i was going to play a 2000 hour endless game i would want them
06:04<crazystacy>it really adds flavour
06:04<crazystacy>problem was on that server i couldn't even afford a locomotive so i had to start with horses and trams :|
06:04<hythlodaeus>ahah oh wow
06:05<hythlodaeus>so much for the self-starting little man heh?
06:05<crazystacy>but surely industries basically relied on horses 100 years ago
06:05<crazystacy>doesn't make sense to have buses and trucks if you start around 1900
06:06*crazystacy installs egrvts
06:06<crazystacy>i find it hard to decide which newgrfs to use, i'm worried i'll realise later i wnat another and have to start over my epic game
06:06<hythlodaeus>yeah, but there were no mass transportation companies like today
06:06<hythlodaeus>except for ship companies
06:06<hythlodaeus>and trains
06:07<hythlodaeus>so a lot of transportation was handled by business owners themselves
06:07<crazystacy>well sure, perfect for your beer brewing company
06:07<crazystacy>hmm. is there a beer industry?
06:08<hythlodaeus>in openttd? not as far as i am aware of
06:08<hythlodaeus>I can imagine a late 19th century game of trains, horse carriages and ships would be a viable one, but it would resemble reality too much, in the sense that growth would be quite slow
06:13<hythlodaeus>in reality, also, horse carriages would serve a lot of functions simultaneously. A passenger coach would for instance be used for transporting people, mail, and some valuables simultaneously
06:13<hythlodaeus>i don't assume you can have that on openttd
06:14<crazystacy>oh. this japanese theme needs those guys running with carts
06:14<crazystacy>2 passengers.
06:15<crazystacy>the acceleration is not great on the horses hm
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06:42<Pikka>more HST farm trains :P
06:47<andythenorth>but seriously
06:48<andythenorth>much as I'm a slave to absolute realism
06:48<andythenorth>I think we should put in more ways to mess stuff up
06:49<Pikka>ah, it's because of the hill, and it overvalues HP rather than TE for hillclimbing ;)
06:50<Pikka>I like at 1:10 where the white train derails before they hit
06:50<andythenorth>the AI knows best
06:50<andythenorth>TE does nothing anyway
06:51<Pikka>if you have freighttrains turned up it improves hill climbing a lot, I think?
06:51<andythenorth>in my test, it's only effective when your train has insufficient HP to maintain speed on the hill
06:52<andythenorth>it then adjusts what the minimum speed your train will make up the hill
06:52<Pikka>which all trains do, if you turn the cargo weight up ;)
06:53<andythenorth>we should add gearing :P
06:53<Pikka>let's not!
06:59*andythenorth running HST and Brush 4 up a 20 tile slope with 520t trains (brake vans)
07:01<andythenorth>now a type 5 :)
07:03<andythenorth>now 2 rats + 2 choppers vs. HST
07:11<andythenorth>hmm HST is much slower out of the depot
07:15<andythenorth>Why Am I Doing This :D ®
07:17<andythenorth>also daylength
07:18<andythenorth>so diesalisation in 1995 game year? o_O
07:19<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth commented on pull request #143: Update: bump all Python dependencies to latest version
07:22<hythlodaeus>that lego train crash video is filmed in a way like if it is someone's fetish
07:23<andythenorth>most YT videos are
07:23<andythenorth>or at least the ones that get algorithmically recommended *
07:23<zvxb>i watch your guys youtube vids and i stop wanting to play
07:23<zvxb>your train networks are leet and mine are shit
07:24<andythenorth>my 9 year old looks on my screen and is like "why can you build like that?"
07:24<andythenorth>and I am like "dunno, why *can't* you, what's wrong with you?"
07:25*andythenorth parenting skills
07:25<andythenorth>possibly not
07:25<hythlodaeus>I can't even afford such insane amount of lego tracks
07:26<hythlodaeus>they're quite expensive
07:26<andythenorth>they really are
07:26<andythenorth>unless you want curves
07:26<andythenorth>curves, people give away :P
07:27<hythlodaeus>you can buy fake chinese lego tracks, but they will be differently coloured, and you need to order in bulk to make shipping viable
07:28<andythenorth>I did a lego survey last year, they had specific questions about 3rd party tracks
07:28<andythenorth>it looked like they might be considering how they can allow 3rd parties to solve the track problem
07:29<andythenorth>since they bought bricklink, one of the 3rd party track sellers has been told by Lego they will be allowed to continue selling
07:29<andythenorth>this is for alternative track parts, not copies of Lego official parts
07:30<andythenorth>still not cheap
07:31<@peter1138>Is it lunch time?
07:31<andythenorth>thought you'd never ask
07:31<andythenorth>I've been surviving on cookies
07:31<@peter1138>Today's lunch is also breakfast.
07:32<hythlodaeus>it's rly tragic, because lego trains are quite affordable considering the prices of actual quality model trains
07:33<hythlodaeus>you pay 100 euros (80/90 if discounted) for a quality train and all necessary power bits
07:33<hythlodaeus>and you got yourself something that can be used and reassembled easily, is highly durable and customizeable
07:34<hythlodaeus>that is great for kids and adults alike
07:34<hythlodaeus>but the track prices rly do kill it
07:34<@peter1138>Toys vs models though innit.
07:37<hythlodaeus>models are only affordable by people with way too much time and money
07:38<hythlodaeus>I used to live next to a Marklin store, it's insane the prices they charge
07:38<hythlodaeus>I know all their suff is handpainted but
07:39<hythlodaeus>who is willing to pay 200 euro for a single locomotive?
07:39<andythenorth>people like me
07:40<hythlodaeus>I envy your disposable budget then ahah
07:43<hythlodaeus>but it's why I think projects like openttd are so cool. they allow anyone to have a highly detailed virtual experience of transportation entirely free of charge and that you can modify to your own tastes. and it runs on any crappy computer
07:44<hythlodaeus>with that said, have y'all seen this
07:46*andythenorth might be accidentally a boomer
07:46<andythenorth>not sure
07:47<andythenorth>although I'm the last year of gen x
07:47<andythenorth>between boomers and whatever the other buzzword is today
07:47<andythenorth>so we're here in the middle, trying to sort all the fricking mess out
07:48<hythlodaeus>last year of gen x is 80/81
07:48<Pikka>doesn't "boomer" just mean "anyone with a more nuanced view of the world than me" these days?
07:48<hythlodaeus>I think he means "that 30 year old boomer" meme
07:49<andythenorth>Pikka: not sure, I can't keep up :)
07:50<Pikka>that's probably a symptom :)
07:50<andythenorth>hythlodaeus I am 1978 or so
07:50<hythlodaeus>you're gen X then
07:50<andythenorth>I discount 1979 because of younger siblings, who are clearly not gen x
07:51<hythlodaeus>millennials is 81 onwards
07:51<andythenorth>how did that word ever stick?
07:51<hythlodaeus>better than gen Y i guess
07:51<andythenorth>and what happened to gen y?
07:51<andythenorth>gen y is just lost?
07:52<hythlodaeus>no, it's the alternative name for millennials
07:52<Pikka>it's a bit derivative
07:52<hythlodaeus>cuz you got gen z after that
07:52<hythlodaeus>which we just call zoomers these days
07:52<Pikka>people sure do love to categorise themselves :)
07:53<hythlodaeus>it's just a way of better illustrating generational conflict
07:53<hythlodaeus>*a better way of
07:53*andythenorth is confused by all of it
07:54<andythenorth>I first encountered millenial around 2010, as 'people who are entering the workforce now'
07:54<andythenorth>which puts them about 1990 birth
07:54<andythenorth>I fear that 50% gen y are now just lost
07:54<andythenorth>maybe that's the *real* issue
07:54<hythlodaeus>no no, 1990 onwards are zoomers
07:54<andythenorth>oof, so confuse
07:54<hythlodaeus>millennials is 81 to 1990
07:54<andythenorth>millenial was just invented marketing bolllocks in 2010
07:55<andythenorth>I used to work in advertising :P
07:55<hythlodaeus>it's the name that stuck tho
07:55<hythlodaeus>so you gotta roll with it
07:55<zvxb>that whole generation is lost within that time frame
07:55<milek7_>why there is any need for weird categorisation?
07:55<andythenorth>taxonomies are weird
07:55<zvxb>year 2000's was such a huge culture clash
07:56<andythenorth>it's usually just invented to sell ads
07:56<andythenorth>not even to sell product, literally to sell ads
07:57<zvxb>i graduated from high school and hated that shit.. kids sucked.. got made fun of for anything and everything
07:57<zvxb>but even music back then
07:57<hythlodaeus>milek7_: because social and technological transformations from the 20th century onwards means different generation experience wholly different realities every 10 years or so
07:57<andythenorth>I can write a deck, saying 'generation foo works like this' then pitch for your $50m strategy account
07:57<zvxb>limp bisket, britney spears, backstreet boys, eminem.... if i choose the wrong genre of music to listen to i'm gay
07:57<andythenorth>then the media planner says 'these are properties where we can buy ads for generation foo'
07:58<zvxb>it's why you have so many emotional fucks from that era
07:58<zvxb>who can't get their shit together into their 30's
07:59<andythenorth>it was all much easier when petrol had lead in it
07:59<andythenorth>everyone was brain damaged and there was no emotion
07:59<zvxb>my grandfather says the same thing about women before rights
08:00<andythenorth>back in my day
08:00<andythenorth>kids today
08:00<hythlodaeus>beat 'em with a stick i says
08:01<hythlodaeus>put 'em ina burlap sack
08:01<hythlodaeus>that'll fix 'em
08:01<zvxb>i was trying to buy lunch at a chipolte and this mom had 3 kids screaming the entire time... each one of them had a tablet with games on it
08:01<zvxb>just stfu already
08:01<hythlodaeus>what does that have to do with tablets tho
08:01<zvxb>spoiled kids is all i'm saying
08:02<zvxb>imagine who they'll be when they're older
08:02<hythlodaeus>it sounds more like you just dislike children in general
08:02<zvxb>my mom constantly spat out kids and being the oldest i always had to take care of them
08:03<andythenorth>oof irc-as-therapy :P
08:03<andythenorth>are we licensed?
08:03<hythlodaeus>that's tough bro
08:03<hythlodaeus>I'm sorry for your situation
08:03<zvxb>i'm just a fan of wiping your own ass is all
08:03<andythenorth>peter1138: I shall now describe lunch
08:03<andythenorth>lunch was
08:03<andythenorth>toasted sourdough wheat-free bread (don't ask)
08:03<andythenorth>cathedral city cheddar
08:04<andythenorth>and some kind of germanic thin ham
08:04<andythenorth>stacked in that order, then toasted more
08:04<andythenorth>I don't know if it's a toastie, cheese on toast, or an open toasted sandwich
08:04<zvxb>make me one? :D
08:04<andythenorth>it might even be croque monsieur
08:04<hythlodaeus>sounds like a fancy grilled cheese
08:05<hythlodaeus>was it real cheddar tho? i can never find that on supermarkets around here
08:05<hythlodaeus>and i love it on nachos
08:05<andythenorth>real cheddar
08:05<andythenorth>from cheddar gorge
08:06<hythlodaeus>sounds pretty good then
08:06<andythenorth>or at least within a few hundred miles :P
08:06<hythlodaeus>i had home made blueberry pancakes for breakfast with real maple syrup
08:06<hythlodaeus>for lunch is leftover bean curry + basmati rice
08:07<FLHerne>Hm, I used to get Cathedral City often, but then I found that Waitrose own-brand is both cheaper and nicer
08:07<FLHerne>(it's much less squishy)
08:07<FLHerne>But right now I have co-op cheddar because Waitrose was closed yesterday :P
08:08<andythenorth>I am not an especial fan of CC, it's just what we seem to get
08:30<@peter1138>andythenorth, delightful.
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08:31<Samu>oops there is a bug in savegame conversion in lifetime profit
08:31<Samu>gonna fix
08:31<@peter1138>My lunch/breakfast consisted of... two small slices of corn bread (frozen for several months) containing a small slaver of almond butter but not enough to have any flavour over the corn bread... 1 stick of celery, some yellow pepper, 3 sugarsnap peas, 3 cherry tomatoes, 1 spring onion, 1 pack of seranno ham "crisps" (WAY TOO SALTY) and a mug of blackcurrent lemsip-like.
08:33<@peter1138>hythlodaeus, cheddar is the standard cheese around these parts, usually in different strenghs.
08:34<andythenorth>peter1138: quite balanced
08:34<hythlodaeus>ah yes, i forgot I was talking with brits.
08:35<hythlodaeus>real cheddar is hard to find here for some reason.
08:35<@peter1138>Where is here for you?
08:35<hythlodaeus>the netherlands
08:35<hythlodaeus>i'm not dutch though
08:35<hythlodaeus>i just live here
08:35<@peter1138>I like a strong cheddar. Mild stuff can stay on the shelf.
08:36<@peter1138>You probably have all manner of lovely Dutch cheese available though.
08:36<hythlodaeus>i don't like dutch cheese
08:36<@peter1138>Whereas we just get offered Edam and, if we're lucky, Gouda.
08:36<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit
08:36<Samu>do i do a fixup?
08:37<Samu>i guess I better do that
08:37<@peter1138>If it's a fix within your PR, yes.
08:38<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit
08:39<@peter1138>andythenorth, also 3 milkybar mini eggs.
08:39<andythenorth>maintains an even strain
08:40<@peter1138>Well, somehow I seem to eat more than everyone else here, at least for lunch. :/
08:40<@peter1138>Hmm, probably shouldn't've had the sweets. That'll want me eating more.
08:42<andythenorth>ha ha, I now understand openttd waypoints :P
08:42<andythenorth>and path oddness
08:42<andythenorth>if a train has an order to a waypoint
08:42<andythenorth>and there is a depot beyond the waypoint
08:42<andythenorth>and the train goes for service
08:43<andythenorth>it (correctly) doesn't clear the waypoint order
08:43<@peter1138>But is it correct?
08:43<andythenorth>but then it sits waiting for a path in depot
08:43<andythenorth>well if it was a station order, it would be correct
08:43<andythenorth>and I'm assuming waypoint orders are just a hack on stations
08:44<Samu>on second though, this conversion is still a bit wrong, it's only a best guess
08:44<andythenorth>but strictly, it did pass through the waypoint
08:45<Samu>when a vehicle is renewed, it gets lifetimeprofits reset to £0, but last year profits are still kept
08:46<Samu>so, on savegame conversion, i can't just equal it to last years profits, just like that, i need to make sure the vehicle is already 1 year old
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08:48<Samu>what is the right thing to do
08:48<Samu>lifetime = 0 for savegame conversion to every vehicle?
08:48<Samu>as burty had
08:49<Samu>or do this partial conversion
08:49<Samu>only 1 year old vehicles get converted
08:49<Samu>the others don't
08:49<Samu>convert all vehicles
08:49<Samu>no matter the age?
08:58<Samu>as burty had, only 1+ year old, or all?
09:02<Samu>imagine a new feature for savegame conversion, players had a choice how to convert some stuff
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09:16<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's not really correct for stations either
09:17<FLHerne>(it doesn't call at the station the first time, but it ought to)
09:22<@peter1138>It should, perhaps, delay the service. I dunno.
09:23<@peter1138>WHO KNOWS
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09:32<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7919: Lifetime profit
09:33<Samu>help me
09:44<Samu>i need to think
09:45<Samu>i renew a vehicle in august 1985, it inherits last year profit of £100,000
09:46<Samu>at the start of 1986, its last year profit is £120,000
09:46<Samu>vehicle turns 1 year old in august 1986, its last year profit is £120,000
09:46<Samu>this is still wrong
09:47<Samu>damn me
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10:18<@planetmaker>not sure we can help you think ;)
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10:48<crazystacy>is there some grf which shrinks all vehicles and so on?
10:49<Samu> converting lifetime profit
10:49<Samu>the "right way"
10:50<Samu>is more complicated than I though
10:51<Samu>i should just compare the dates
10:52<Samu> less complex
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11:10<Samu> are these comments clear?
11:10<Samu>help me out
11:11<Samu>predecessor maybe
11:12<Samu> /* Renewing vehicles resets lifetime profits to zero and
11:12<Samu> * inherits last year profits from their predecessors.
11:12<Samu> * Using their last year profits to best guess lifetime
11:12<Samu> * profits falls into the wrong side, unless the vehicles
11:12<Samu> * have already gone through one entire calendar year. */
11:12<Samu>good english?
11:14<nielsm>the meaning is perfectly clear at least
11:15<Samu>but the code?
11:18<Samu>the dilema still stands though
11:18<Samu>if you read the message in the PR
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11:37<andythenorth>I use a lot of palette colours for magic replace stuff in python PIL
11:37<andythenorth>but sometimes I want to draw with them :)
11:37<andythenorth>let's just say, we won't be having any orange trains :P
11:40<andythenorth>I could probably define my own palette to solve that :P
11:40<andythenorth>all those wasted magic pinks :D
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13:29<Wolf01> lol
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13:44<andythenorth>so when are we solving game progression speed?
13:44<andythenorth>let's not call it day length eh?
13:44<andythenorth>tech tree advancement
13:45<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:45<DorpsGek_III_> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:45<andythenorth>I have 30 years between train generations, and I have a fun micro-management cdist pax network, which means blanket 'replace all' isn't the weapon of choice
13:46<andythenorth>it's taken me 35 years to carefully upgrade my 1930 trains :P
13:46<andythenorth>and now the new ones are here, and I still have some 1900 trains :P
13:46<_dp_>merge and call it solved :p
13:47<andythenorth>seriously considering a parameter to just scale intro dates, using 1860 as a base
13:48<andythenorth>or I could just wind the clock back 10 years
13:48<_dp_>can gs cheat date back?
13:48<_dp_>probably not...
13:48<andythenorth>don't think so
13:48*andythenorth considering what makes a good sandbox game
13:49<andythenorth>#1 most useful thing: magic bulldozer
13:49<andythenorth>#1 missing thing: some of the SE terrain tools, e.g. fix broken rivers, build houses
13:50<andythenorth>things I'd kinda like: 'prospect' for all industry types
13:50<andythenorth>the option to grow towns by delivering cargos
13:50<andythenorth>and the progression speed thing :P
13:51<andythenorth>oh I have to keep turning magic bulldozer off, because otherwise towns bulldoze industries
13:51<andythenorth>or was that fixed?
13:52<FLHerne>I think we should just have 'build river' as a non-cheat
13:52<FLHerne>Why not?
13:52<andythenorth>can someone just do an object grf for it?
13:53<FLHerne>I guess so?
13:54<FLHerne>But then you'd have to build canals, and build fake-rivers over them, to make it navigable?
13:54<FLHerne>I don't think objects can confer water-ness
13:54<FLHerne>Really, everything should be objects :P
13:56<FLHerne>Objects should be able to specify other map bits,
13:56<FLHerne>So station tiles and waypoints would just be objects with track
13:57<FLHerne>And you could have stations with junctions in the middle if the object allowed that
13:58*FLHerne -> away before propounding any sillier ideas
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14:14<andythenorth>everything is state machines!
14:19*andythenorth wonders how local authority penalties are accrued
14:19<andythenorth>maybe there's a table somewhere, let's see
14:24<andythenorth>yeah I'm looking where I can delete all that :)
14:24<andythenorth>so bored of angry towns
14:27<andythenorth>full sandbox mode, or riot
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14:32<andythenorth>so newgrf tech progression parameter
14:32<andythenorth>pre-defined values on a dropdown? Or enter an integer?
14:33<nielsm>you could do it procedurally, go to the Town class and delete the company ratings field and try to compile, that'll cause a bunch of errors. delete the code causing those errors, and try again. repeat until you feel done :)
14:33<andythenorth>nielsm: no cyber bullying pls :D
14:33<andythenorth>also that is how I code :P
14:36<andythenorth>basically, if we could extend "Town council's attitude to restructuring" to include "doesn't give a hoot"
14:36<andythenorth>the current option for "permissive" is a very relative description
14:37<andythenorth>"permissive as long as you build all stations before you build any tracks"
14:37<crazystacy>i am sure you can add some rating modifier cheat fairly easily
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14:37<milek7_>*there is a patch for that
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14:37<nielsm>I think it refers to the acceptable rating level for various types of construction, and not how much the rating changes
14:38<crazystacy>how about some flag you can set which makes it never decrease. ok milek said it
14:38<nielsm>which is way too little effect
14:38<crazystacy>i grew a city from 2000 to 30000 pop, and then they complain when i want to give them another bus station
14:38<crazystacy>oh no no no we want to be a shitty city with zero public transport
14:38<andythenorth>just set acceptable to 0
14:38<andythenorth>move the floor down
14:39<andythenorth>if I could be bothered to open src in my editor, I could PR it probably
14:39<nielsm>the rating is actually from -1000 to +1000, zero is neutral
14:39<crazystacy>what openttd really needs is god-powers to destroy them when they're whining. there could be a "fear" rating
14:39<crazystacy>the higher the fear, the less the rating matters
14:39<crazystacy>"we don't want that bus station" /me releases plague rats "ok we want it"
14:39<nielsm>does the magic bulldozer let you ignore town ratings?
14:39<nielsm>if not it should
14:40<andythenorth>but not for construction obvs :)
14:40<nielsm>ah yes
14:43<andythenorth>is there a PR? :P
14:44<andythenorth>can we have it for 1.10?
14:44<andythenorth>I can't play self-compiled OpenTTD any more
14:44<andythenorth>the FPS is too low
14:44<andythenorth>I have to use official binaries
14:44<milek7_>there was a discussion whether it should be separate setting or integrated into existing tolerance setting
14:45*andythenorth didn't consider it in depth
14:45<andythenorth>just seems obvious
14:45<milek7_>ie. if there should be 'don't care' setting in difficulty.town_council_tolerance
14:45<andythenorth>it's just an extension of the current scale, so should be in the existing setting
14:45<andythenorth>two settings fragments behaviour
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14:48<milek7_>so then bribing option should be disabled?
14:50<_dp_>bribing is still somewhat useful in case GS messes with rating
14:51<andythenorth>doesn't need disabled, it just won't get used
14:51<andythenorth>someone might report it as a bug, but it's a tidy mind problem
14:52<andythenorth>leaving it enabled is zero-harm, and reduces QA problems
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14:55<nielsm>wow the town council tolerance setting does very little
14:56<nielsm>it only affects removal of roads and bridges
14:56<nielsm>not houses
14:56<nielsm>and not building stations
14:56<nielsm>okay it also affects airport noise
14:57<_dp_>lol, now I remember why it was never implemented xD
14:57<nielsm>and the ratings for road destruction are stupidly close so the setting has very little practical effect
14:57<nielsm>16/64/112, are the permissive/neutral/hostile min ratings for removing roads
14:58<nielsm>remember the range is -1000 to +1000
14:58<milek7_>andythenorth (2017): This is IMHO a boring thing to add to the core game.
14:58<andythenorth>ha ha
14:58<andythenorth>former me was an idiot
14:59<_dp_>redoing tolerance setting completely would probably be the best
14:59<andythenorth>wow had I been drinking?
14:59<_dp_>add one setting for noise and one for rating that actually works
14:59<andythenorth>hmm 06.11GMT, bit early for drinking
15:00<andythenorth>I could have stayed up all night, but I never do so eh
15:00<nielsm>the local authority aggressiveness setting should not be rating thresholds, but affect the rate of change, and for _all_ actions
15:00<andythenorth>oh I think my comment is probably a campaign for newgrf control of towns
15:01<andythenorth>that usually ends up in someone rage quitting, so let's not discuss it :P
15:01<andythenorth>last time it was TB, and we should never make the sysadmin rage quit :P
15:09<milek7_>nielsm: it affects houses too
15:09<milek7_>hm, no
15:09<milek7_>you're right
15:09<nielsm>it's a mostly pointless setting
15:10<nielsm>the least that could be done would be making it more useful
15:11<milek7_>required rating for house removal is specified by NewGRF, it should be multipied by tolerance setting?
15:12<nielsm>as far as I can tell, removing houses checks that your rating will not fall below zero for the removal?
15:13<crazystacy2>i saw in my japanese town set that the stations are animated (more or fewer passengers), i think that's according to how much cargo is waiting?
15:13<crazystacy2>i guess i should quit asking and just look into how newgrfs work
15:14<milek7_>yes, but it specifies by how much it will be actually decreased
15:14<nielsm>also, I think a more interesting approach than outright refusing building any stations within the town could be that at more permissive levels you get some grace allowing you to build small stations (number of station tiles) even at bad ratings
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15:17<andythenorth>I'm 99% certain from my comment that I wanted to make it a newgrf cb
15:17<nielsm>e.g. at permissive you could always build bus and truck stops regardless of rating, and when your rating goes above appalling you can also build smaller train stations and docks, but both under some restriction of total number of station tiles nearby
15:17<andythenorth>now is the time for someone to interject 'but GS'
15:18<andythenorth>and then we can do the 'but GS is lame' dance :)
15:18<nielsm>where should the cb be on?
15:18<_dp_>but WASM :p
15:18<nielsm>some abstract object?
15:19*andythenorth is assuming there is already a method call on rating when constructing
15:20<andythenorth>there was the rudiment of a town object in newgrf
15:20<andythenorth>I'm not sure how far it got
15:20<crazystacy2>what is GS?
15:22<crazystacy2>i need to learn Dafny by tomorrow at 8 AM sharp
15:23<crazystacy2>but i spent the day coding on openttd instead
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15:50<crazystacy>milek7_, do you know the status of the 3d viewport renderer? :P
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16:01<milek7_>crazystacy: it works i think?..
16:02<crazystacy>is he doing any more work on it?
16:04<andythenorth>nielsm: did you ever PR the industry sub-layouts? :)
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17:57<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 commented on pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients
17:59<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 commented on pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients
18:05<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 updated pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients
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20:30<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7912: Feature: Disallow industry production changes from GS
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22:17<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7935: Add: Option for a new transfer feeder payment algorithm
22:22<DorpsGek_III_>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7935: Add: Option for a new transfer feeder payment algorithm
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 14 00:00:08 2020