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#openttd IRC Logs for 2020-06-30

---Logopened Tue Jun 30 00:00:10 2020
00:23<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8244: Fix #8216: Don't show floating text on autoreplace if cost is 0 https://git.io/JJfVX
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00:32<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8238: Update documentation to acknowledge integer type mismatch in certain admin packets https://git.io/JJfV7
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02:16<andythenorth>grf.ninja?
02:16<andythenorth>only $18
02:20*andythenorth has registered grf.farm
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02:38<andythenorth>such excite http://grf.farm.s3-website.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/
02:39<LordAro>\o/
02:47<andythenorth>the other end is awaiting DNS propogation http://grf.farm/
02:47<LordAro>andythenorth: it works!
02:48<andythenorth>I get a gandi parking page
02:48<LordAro>probably cached somewhere
02:48<andythenorth>yup
02:51<andythenorth>the AWS instructions for setting up a http site are pretty good
02:51<andythenorth>I'll do the cloudfront bollocks next to get https
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03:28<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJfit
03:41<andythenorth>hmm looks like a long default TTL
03:44<andythenorth>remote website testing services see it working
03:44<andythenorth>looks like Virgin have cached DNS results
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04:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen https://git.io/JJvbJ
04:31<andythenorth>I suspect the next 72 hours are going to be mostly me moaning about TTL
04:31<LordAro>F
04:32<LordAro>i'd be surprised if it was more than 48
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04:43<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8188: CMake mac tweaks https://git.io/Jf12J
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05:01<andythenorth>you're right, the default was 48hrs
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05:46<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJfyA
05:59<andythenorth>hurrah my Virgin DNS refreshed
05:59<andythenorth>http://grf.farm/
06:03<andythenorth>http://grf.farm/firs/4.0.0-alpha-3/html/get_started.html
06:17<@planetmaker>hey ho :) grf.farm sounds... excellent :)
06:25<andythenorth>planetmaker I did wonder if we could somehow how keep bundles alive, I do like it
06:26<andythenorth>but ultimately I could solve this by clicking on some buttons, so I did :P
06:26<andythenorth>bundles was much appreciated
06:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, we can keep it alive. I have no plans to shut that down
06:29<@planetmaker>I simply currently miss time to maintain much of the services or do much else. However the server will remain available and bundles is not much more than a file dump with a http server attached anyway
06:30<@planetmaker>and if s/o or somewhat needs ssh there... I shall happily install a root key for you or another trusted person so that it can be reasonably used should I be temporarily not available
06:30<@planetmaker>(and there's always ^spike^ who has root on everything there, too
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08:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen https://git.io/JJvbJ
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09:20<andythenorth>http://grf.farm/iron-horse/2.7.0
09:21<andythenorth>will I automate uploading these with GH actions?
09:21<andythenorth>or just do it manually only on tagged versions?
09:26<LordAro>why not automate uploading these with GH actions only on tagged versions? :p
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09:33<andythenorth>supermop_Home o/
09:34<andythenorth>LordAro yes that could be done
09:34<andythenorth>that automation XKCD would apply, how often do I tag?
09:34<andythenorth>bundles did it for 100+ projects, definitely worth it
09:34<andythenorth>I have....5 or so
09:35<andythenorth>I am not averse to learning GH Actions though
09:36<LordAro>andythenorth: if you're doing GH actions anyway, it's not a lot more effort on top
09:36<andythenorth>I'm only doing it to get the docs publishing tbh
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09:37<andythenorth>if I do it manually, I'll probably brown bag at some point
10:13<supermop_Home>hi andythenorth
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10:26<supermop_Home>i ended up buying neither a train nor a box of Japanese records
10:27<supermop_Home>instead i bough yet another coffee scale
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>a coffee scale is where you rate it from 1 to 10? :p
11:31<supermop_Home>Eddi|zuHause maybe i will use imperial and rate it out of 12
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11:53<andythenorth>oof
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11:54<andythenorth>supermop_Home FLHerne shall I ruin my nice tech tree, and add random British engines with no gameplay rationale? :P http://grf.farm/iron-horse/2.7.0/html/tech_tree_table_blue.html
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12:26<arikover>What sort of engines?
12:33<andythenorth>stuff like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_31
12:34<andythenorth>only of interest to people recreating British railways in OpenTTD
12:34<andythenorth>minimal gameplay value
12:34<andythenorth>overlaps existing engines, but with moderately worse stats in all areas
12:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: Parameter?
12:41<FLHerne>Or just another roster...
12:41<andythenorth>I have a Joker parameter
12:41<andythenorth>turns on the 08, snowplough etc
12:42<andythenorth>they'd go in the bit of the tech tree that says "Lolz: Silly trains that don't have any gameplay purpose but look nice."
12:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: I think adding more variety to the normal roster is probably better value-for-time?
12:42<andythenorth>or I could do the European or US rosters :P
12:42<FLHerne>Things like the three identical generations of Shoebox
12:43<FLHerne>And the freight kettles still look somewhat unloved
12:44<andythenorth>they're a bit non-descript
12:44<FLHerne>Maybe a 60 instead of the 59, so they aren't identical at TTD scale?
12:45<andythenorth>the 60 is the Vanguard, but it's a never-built class 38
12:45<andythenorth>could be a 58
12:45<andythenorth>that was one of the others I was considering
12:46<andythenorth>it's all very realistic to have endless class 73, 37 and 59/66
12:46<andythenorth>but a bit samey
12:46<FLHerne>Yes
12:46<FLHerne>58 would be good
12:46<andythenorth>if only we had daylength :P
12:46<FLHerne>Distinctive
12:46<andythenorth>I could do 20 year generations not 30
12:46<andythenorth>anyway, daylength is solved in GS
12:46<andythenorth>so I could redesign for that
12:49<arikover>andythenorth: I find the Grub/Gronk quite useful for small shunting (factory to freight station)
12:49<andythenorth>I use it for little novelty lines
12:52<arikover>The Grub is also nice for early tram-like service (low density passenger), or as a low-cost metro.
12:53*andythenorth looking up never-built british engines
12:54<andythenorth>I did have a class 70, but I removed it, they're ugly https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/graphics/pony/chimera.png
12:54<nielsm>so should we add a feature for "scripting properties" on newgrf items?
12:54<andythenorth>and I wanted to use more sheds
12:54<andythenorth>nielsm explain more? :)
12:55<nielsm>let things add a list of arbitrary fourcc-named properties that scripts can query
12:55<nielsm>to allow newgrf to better explain themselves to scripts how they're "supposed" to be used
12:56<nielsm>like have a "GENR" property where engines with the same value are logically "same generation"
12:57<andythenorth>that sounds dangerously close to the arbitrary props I wanted for var 61 :)
12:57<nielsm>or a FRTP and PASP set of properties that indicate how preferred they are supposed to be for freight and passengers
12:57<andythenorth>unless it's hidden to newgrf, I would abuse it :)
12:58<nielsm>or ALTG for "alternative groups", a generation/tech tree GS could allow a player to pick one of several alternatives to get
12:58<andythenorth>'equivalent to'
12:59<nielsm>either way, just a generic way to let newgrf specify stuff that can be queried later, but otherwise has no effect in the base game
13:00<andythenorth>you think the user bits might be a poor solution to that? :P
13:00<nielsm>?
13:00<andythenorth>newgrf trains have a prop with arbitrary bits
13:00<andythenorth>can be used in certain queries
13:00<andythenorth>afaik, it's mostly useless
13:01<andythenorth>prop 25 User-defined bit mask to set when checking veh. var. 42
13:01<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains
13:02<andythenorth>can obviously be used outside var 42, but is of very limited value
13:02<andythenorth>there's a certain kind of person who can envisage how to combine bitmask values in a way that's actually productive there
13:02<andythenorth>and then there's the rest of us
13:04<andythenorth>anyway, has anyone tried the daylength GS yet?
13:04<andythenorth>I did look at it, but it (a) confused me (b) is incompatible with any reloading of newgrfs
13:05<andythenorth>and I only have time to play games to test newgrfs
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13:05<andythenorth>potentially it solves daylength, but it has had crickets response on forums
13:05<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=87029
13:06<andythenorth>shows the difference between 'what players say they care about' and 'what they actually care about'
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13:11<andythenorth>quak?
13:12<frosch123>quak.fail ?
13:12<andythenorth>considered it
13:12<andythenorth>I had to restrain myself, buying domains on AWS would be very easy :P
13:13<arikover>andythenorth: daylength GS? Are we talking about the same daylength feature included in JGR Patchpack?
13:13<andythenorth>no
13:13<andythenorth>the daylength GS I linked in forums
13:15<arikover>I fail to understand why you call it Daylength GS. It's called tech advance, right?
13:15<nielsm>yes it changes the speed tech gets introduced at
13:15<nielsm>relative to the speed things move around the map
13:16<andythenorth>it's an implementation of daylength
13:16<arikover>But it does not change production rate of industries, right?
13:16<nielsm>of course not
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13:17<nielsm>if you change the production per tick of industries you change the balance between elements of the economy
13:18<andythenorth>afaict, there is a small cohort who want daylength because it reduces industry and town production
13:18<andythenorth>but those people could write a newgrf already
13:18<andythenorth>I suspect what they see as a feature, is to other people a bug
13:19<nielsm>firs already allows you to change the base production rate of primaries, right?
13:19<andythenorth>not in parameters
13:19<andythenorth>but it could be done
13:19<andythenorth>we talked about me adding a production scaling param
13:19<andythenorth>afaict, there was also a small cohort who want daylength to make travel times realistic
13:19<arikover>Well I tried daylength because you can basically service an industry with fewer vehicles.
13:19<andythenorth>but those people are weird
13:20<andythenorth>arikover good, so I didn't imagine that case :)
13:20<nielsm>have anyone made a half scale train set? :)
13:20<andythenorth>so lower production rates, or bigger vehicles would both solve your desire arikover ?
13:20<nielsm>everything is half size, except capacities and power
13:21<nielsm>so you can have twice as long trains in the same number of tiles
13:21<andythenorth>chibi chibi
13:21<andythenorth>quite tempting
13:21<nielsm>you could probably even just take the original scale sprites and put into the 2x scale graphics instead
13:21<arikover>andythenorth: Well I guess. I also like time passing slower.
13:22<nielsm>the annoying part would be making new rail and station graphics :P
13:22<andythenorth>nielsm there's a capacity parameter for Iron Horse :P
13:22<andythenorth>achieves same result, but not visually
13:22<nielsm>part of my thought was that you should be able to send longer trains around without the trains being 4x the size of the industries on the map
13:23<andythenorth>it has appeal
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13:24<andythenorth>nielsm changing the Horse capacity parameter gives 4/8 vehicles with 30 tonnes capacity
13:24<andythenorth>for 1960
13:25<andythenorth>varies a bit by date
13:25<andythenorth>1.5* the default value
13:25<arikover>andythenorth: I'm not a big fan of Daylength, mind you.
13:26<andythenorth>hmm 1.33* the default, I checked the code
13:26<nielsm>yeah you can do that, it just makes some rather chubby-looking trains :P
13:26<andythenorth>arikover why not?
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13:26<dP>nielsm, do sets of people who want realism and who can do content even intersect?
13:26<andythenorth>dP me and pikka?
13:27<arikover>andythenorth: I like it, but I'm not a hardcore fan.
13:27<andythenorth>any particular things about it?
13:28<dP>andythenorth, you want realism? o_O
13:28<andythenorth>I've been told I'm obsessed with it
13:28<nielsm>it looks to me more like you focus on gameplay progression with a sprinkle of belivability
13:29<andythenorth>mostly I focus on drawing trains I like
13:29<nielsm>+e, somewhere
13:29<andythenorth>everything else is post-hoc rationalisation
13:29<andythenorth>ret-con
13:29<andythenorth>some of the trains I like drawing are fake
13:29<andythenorth>some are real
13:33<supermop_Home>what i want is probably not 'daylength'
13:34<supermop_Home>also i don't find new trains come to quickly
13:34<andythenorth>I find that it takes 30 game years to replace all the old trains
13:34<supermop_Home>maybe if i played on huge maps i would,
13:34<andythenorth>then new ones appear
13:34<nielsm>well you should do like with mobile phones, only buy every second gen
13:35<supermop_Home>but on maps similar to original size, i have no problem, or i even find myself waiting for new trains
13:35<supermop_Home>my problem is probably somewhat related to production, but not uiformly
13:36<andythenorth>I find early game, the Horse trains are nerfed
13:36<andythenorth>so I want new ones sooner
13:36<andythenorth>but after 1930, progression is much too fast
13:37<nielsm>more different early trains
13:37<nielsm>early steam engine development was wild and experimental
13:37<andythenorth>I played some original OTTD baseset recently, the train progression is borderline bizarre
13:38<andythenorth>there's no concept of roles, only more or less useless engines
13:38<andythenorth>then 'bigger'
13:38<supermop_Home>it's more that i often reach headway capacity of a line
13:38<andythenorth>+1
13:38<andythenorth>I have ideas for that in NARS Horse
13:38<andythenorth>but I never chose a route to go
13:38<andythenorth>if we accept short trains (unrealistic for US, but eh)
13:39<supermop_Home>and can't fit in a mix of local and express, or freight
13:39<andythenorth>then capacity could increase severely
13:39<andythenorth>40t could become 80t
13:39<andythenorth>I also considered requiring a new railtype for the heavier trains
13:39<andythenorth>Railroad Tycoon did something along those lines
13:40<nielsm>heavy rail and high speed rail be separate?
13:40<nielsm>heavy rail is limited to 160 km/h while high speed can't carry heavy freight due to axle load
13:41<supermop_Home>for industries, idk if i actually consistently find production too high or too low
13:41<dP>btw, speaking of old trains, it would be awesome to have a sane way of upgrading the rail type
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13:42<dP>simplest solution would be an option to let old trains run on new rails, kinda like it is with elrail
13:42<supermop_Home>sometimes its like, it only really makes sense to serve this once every 90 days, and that's sort of odd to plan around
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13:42<andythenorth>supermop_Home are you specifically thinking of Steeltown?
13:42<supermop_Home>yeah
13:42<andythenorth>production ramps up horribly as new cargo flows come on stream
13:42<supermop_Home>once everything is gung ho
13:42<andythenorth>once you have 4 inputs the output grows fast
13:42<andythenorth>and then down the chain
13:42<supermop_Home>the production is huge
13:42<supermop_Home>but its very deterministic
13:42<andythenorth>but it tends to stabilise, unless you keep adding mines
13:43<supermop_Home>and you are free to carry only like 60% if you want
13:43<andythenorth>tempting as it is, I probably won't optimise vehicle progression for Steeltown
13:43<andythenorth>it would be good though
13:43<andythenorth>if I write a God Mode GS
13:44<andythenorth>it could control both FIRS and the vehicles
13:44<supermop_Home>in steel town i often find i really need ensp to make a raw material service make sense
13:44<supermop_Home>but at gung ho its too much
13:44<andythenorth>you can tone it down
13:44<supermop_Home>so i have the gh level set lower
13:44<andythenorth>200% not 300% is more relaxing
13:45<supermop_Home>i like steel town as it seems to work best for a modern urban economy
13:45<supermop_Home>but quickly takes all capacity, so you need a duplicate passenger network
13:45<andythenorth>yes
13:45<andythenorth>realism!
13:46<supermop_Home>personally idk if i am particularly interested in a north American horse
13:47<supermop_Home>except perhaps as a 'what could have been' if they hadn't abandoned passenger service
13:47<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Metal_Bridge
13:47<andythenorth>" During World War II 15% of America's steel making capacity crossed over the Hot Metal Bridge, up to 180 tons per hour."
13:47<supermop_Home>the north American railroad i am most interested in is the subway....
13:47<andythenorth>ha
13:48<andythenorth>there's a newgrf for NA subways no?
13:48<supermop_Home>idk?
13:48<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=77141
13:49<supermop_Home>not that i need it to be exactly prototypical
13:49<supermop_Home>not a fan of the art style
13:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen https://git.io/JJvbJ
13:50<supermop_Home>a horse style, genericized, foster-ized set would be nice
13:50<supermop_Home>i don't need to choose between the Alstom, Bombardier, and Kawasaki equivalents for which 2010s train i'm going to buy
13:52<supermop_Home>Iron Rat
13:54<supermop_Home>andythenorth i still think a japan horse has a lot of potential
13:54<andythenorth>it might yes
13:55<andythenorth>bo-bo-bo
13:55<supermop_Home>for the 1067mm vs SG difference, high volume commuter, niche freight
13:55<andythenorth>monorail!
13:55<supermop_Home>yeah
13:55<supermop_Home>instead of Rail ELRL NG Metro
13:56<supermop_Home>split the difference between metro and SG emu, and add monorail as the 'weird' gauge
13:56<supermop_Home>NG ELNG ELRL Mono
13:57<supermop_Home>for japan termite
13:58<supermop_Home>idk if the old mockup list i made would still hold balanced vs current IH
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14:15<supermop_Home>"Due to the imbalance of ironmaking and steelmaking facilities at the two plants, rail shipments of molten iron "hot metal" were sent from Campbell to Brier Hill from 1937 until 1979. "
14:16<supermop_Home>"The company abruptly closed its Campbell Works and furloughed 5,000 workers on September 19, 1977,"
14:16<supermop_Home>where did the molten iron com from those last 2 years?
14:19<andythenorth>maybe they kept a stockpile
14:19<andythenorth>in giant vacuum flasks
14:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJIb
14:21<frosch123>i think the vacuum is not important if the flask is large enough
14:22<supermop_Home>maybe it took 2 years for the furnace to cool down
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14:56<andythenorth>non-linear gaps between generations?
14:58<nielsm>what might be interesting also: lots of different engines made available, but production of them stops early if nobody builds them
15:00<nielsm>but somthing like from 1850 to 1920 a new steam engine design comes every 5 to 10 years, some of them very specialized
15:00<nielsm>and then things settle down into more clear roles and slower development
15:04<nielsm>and some of those early designs get obsoleted fast so you may not use all of them, depending on when you're building new routes versus expanding existing
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15:27<frosch123>hmm, there are some NOT_REACHED in the script api
15:28<frosch123>i guess ais can force crash ottd :p
15:28<LordAro>:<
15:28<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/… https://git.io/JJJq2
15:37<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/… https://git.io/JJJq7
15:57<Corns[m]>how can i tell which game settings can be changed during multiplayer?
15:57<Corns[m]>e.g. yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol can be changed but not airspeed factor
15:58-!-Corns[m] is now known as CornsMcGowan[m]
15:59<andythenorth>so anyone fancy writing a GS? :P
16:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/… https://git.io/JJJq2
16:00<andythenorth>oh this happened :P https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1233726#p1233726
16:00<andythenorth>planetmaker frosch123 :P
16:01<CornsMcGowan[m]>inb4 bananas moves domain
16:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8251: Fix: 8250: NRT: Company infrastructure window always omits last road/… https://git.io/JJJmQ
16:03<frosch123>andythenorth: i am just exploring writing a new gs
16:04<frosch123>finally got a good idea
16:05<frosch123>andythenorth: as new dictator over grf hosting, will you review them for quality?
16:05<supermop_Home>ugh i always start in 1990 like a year before the 135 freight wagons come
16:06<dP>andythenorth, http://grf.farm/firs/4.0.0-alpha-3/html/static/img/industries/fish_farm.png
16:06<CornsMcGowan[m]>"this new industry turns people into-"
16:06<CornsMcGowan[m]> * "this new industry turns passengers into-"
16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: why does the hotel accept pax twice?
16:08<dP>I don't want to write GS but I may do a server :p
16:08*dP just hopes I won't have to fork firs
16:09<andythenorth>dP thanks for 404 report :)
16:09<andythenorth>I know cause, will fix
16:15<andythenorth>frosch123 accepts and produces I guess
16:15<andythenorth>that needs fixed
16:19<andythenorth>frosch123 the idea is a secret? :)
16:21<frosch123>sure
16:22<frosch123>but you know, that i focus on weird track setups
16:22<frosch123>it won't be a busybee
16:23<frosch123>and definitely no city builder
16:23<frosch123>also no military content
16:23<andythenorth>is it this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq9FlcoXTkM&t=4s
16:23<andythenorth>:P
16:23<frosch123>can i make more obvious statements?
16:24<frosch123>andythenorth: i certainly have to consider infinite score exploits
16:24<andythenorth>fail.gs?
16:25<frosch123>i won't write docs. gh releases are good enough
16:25<andythenorth>once TrueBrain has registered our stichting we could get our own TLDs?
16:25<andythenorth>.grf
16:25<frosch123>probably same for george
16:25<andythenorth>.gs
16:25<andythenorth>.fail
16:26<frosch123>.andy
16:28<frosch123>andythenorth: .gs is a valid country tld
16:28<andythenorth>o_O
16:30<frosch123>though my browser does not trust the certificate of their *offical* issuer
16:30<frosch123>how many people live on the sandwich islands?
16:30<frosch123>30...
16:30<frosch123>30 people have their own tld?
16:34<andythenorth>nice
16:34<andythenorth>.nice
16:35<andythenorth>my worlds never look like this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1233727#p1233727
16:36<supermop_Home>the question is rather, why do 30 people live on the south sandwich islands
16:36<frosch123>supermop_Home: apparently there is a research laboratory
16:37<supermop_Home>less 'live there' and more 'have to be there for work' i guess
16:38<andythenorth>hmm did we ever find out why windowshading the train window increases fps?
16:38*andythenorth looks
16:41<andythenorth>http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd&date=1577404800#1577449829
16:41<andythenorth>oh video is on devzone, so no longer works
16:42<andythenorth>nvm
16:54<CornsMcGowan[m]>oh man
16:54<CornsMcGowan[m]>pathfinding for two or more simultaneous rails is tricky
16:54<frosch123>is that the reason monorail was invented?
16:54<CornsMcGowan[m]>how does choo choo do it with just the A* library?
16:54<CornsMcGowan[m]>HAHA
16:55<CornsMcGowan[m]>i implemented a tool similar to factorio's railplanner, only works for one track at the moment
16:57<CornsMcGowan[m]>https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/bfsge4/im_back_with_an_update_to_my_railplanner_tool/
16:57<CornsMcGowan[m]>i'm thinking about adding an option to build two simultaneous tracks but the problem becomes much more complicated
17:01<nielsm>cheap approach: treat the map as 2x2 tile cells and pathfind between those
17:01<nielsm>at least I think that can work
17:01<frosch123>CornsMcGowan[m]: https://www.luisrios.eti.br/public/en_us/research/trains/ <- there is a scientific paper on that problem
17:01<frosch123>though i did not read it
17:01<CornsMcGowan[m]>oo
17:02<CornsMcGowan[m]>http://idm-lab.org/publications.html i've been reading through this guy's papers
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17:02<CornsMcGowan[m]>he's been publishing a lot of multi-agent pathfinding papers, mostly for amazon robotic warehouse stuff it seems
17:02<CornsMcGowan[m]>i'll read the trAIns paper ty :)
17:03<frosch123>multi-agent stuff usually is about pathfinding with limited knowledge
17:04<nielsm>superficially multi-agent sounds like pathfinding in an environment where agents need to get around independently on potentially intersecting routes, with limited or no cooperation
17:04<CornsMcGowan[m]>oh? i thought the domain space would be 100% known (in at least the robot warehouse scenario)
17:05<nielsm>yeah the issue is that if you want them to have 100% knowledge of every agent's paths you'd get lots of downtime with synchronisation and maybe pointless waiting, and instead it might be better to take a best guess even if it might conflict with someone else
17:08<CornsMcGowan[m]>hm i see
17:08<nielsm>another possible approach for parallel rail tracks: have higher cost for tiles that don't have similar sloped (or flat) land next by, so you for the most part find a route for one track that will have space for the second next by
17:08<nielsm>then build the second track in segments along the first track, and if a segment can't build next by try to find a separate route for that segment
17:08<CornsMcGowan[m]>oh this article seems to imply some central computer does the calc http://idm-lab.org/bib/abstracts/Koen17m.html and then assigns paths to each agent, rather than each agent running its own algorithm
17:08<nielsm>and you might need some backtracking then
17:10<supermop_Home>andythenorth small ore hoppers are cheaper per ton that medium or large
17:10<supermop_Home>not complaining really as i like the look of the small ones
17:11<CornsMcGowan[m]>that could work
17:11<b_jonas>supermop_Home: don't they also weigh more or longer?
17:11<CornsMcGowan[m]>sounds like a lot of backtracking though
17:11<b_jonas>because those can metter when you put them on a train
17:11<dP>just give the second track bonus for going along the first one
17:12<nielsm>that's also a possibility
17:12<andythenorth>supermop_Home sounds like a bug, the costs are just done with maths * unit length
17:12<nielsm>and be careful what happens if the second track ends up on the wrong side of the first :P
17:12<supermop_Home>the difference is on the order of $10-$40
17:13<supermop_Home>enough you'd only notice if you were just checking to see if you'd be penalized for using the cuter small hoppers...
17:13<andythenorth>it's about 4.4 / ton vs 4.5 / ton?
17:14<andythenorth>just be rounding issues
17:14<supermop_Home>for the 135 kmh generation,
17:14<nielsm>anyway gn
17:14<CornsMcGowan[m]>omg trAIns rolls their own priority queue implementation
17:14<CornsMcGowan[m]>wild
17:14<CornsMcGowan[m]>gn :)
17:14<supermop_Home>based on small hopper you'd expect a long hopper to be 1944 quid
17:14<CornsMcGowan[m]>ty for the tips
17:15<supermop_Home>but its 1957
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17:15<andythenorth>yeah rounding issues :)
17:16<supermop_Home>medium you'd expect to be 1458, but its 1464
17:18<CornsMcGowan[m]>smol hopper can navigate tighter turns
17:18<supermop_Home>haha
17:18<CornsMcGowan[m]>or at least penalised less on tight turns
17:18<CornsMcGowan[m]>given curve speed limit is determined by wagon count between turns
17:18<supermop_Home>andy add high speed turn bonus to small ore hoppers?
17:19<supermop_Home>for high speed ore trains?
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17:23<CornsMcGowan[m]>i believe its not necessary
17:24<CornsMcGowan[m]>or immersive :^) shorter wagons are more unstable IRL i thinkh
17:24<CornsMcGowan[m]>hence why theres no 150kph variant in iron horse
17:24<supermop_Home>open gangway ore hopper:
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17:25<supermop_Home>one continuous hopper made of 10 hopper segments?
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17:27<andythenorth>I considered the SDT https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/self-discharge-freight-trains.172483/
17:28<supermop_Home>do they use something like this for ballast?
17:29<andythenorth>yes
17:29<andythenorth>oh right by my house :P https://www.alamy.com/a-class-56-diesel-locomotive-number-56053-working-a-freight-train-loaded-with-scrap-metal-passing-narroways-hill-junction-in-bristol-25th-september-1993-image261455910.html
17:33<CornsMcGowan[m]>your poor house
17:33<CornsMcGowan[m]>must be shaking itself to bits over time lmao
17:34<supermop_Home>andy lovely
17:34<supermop_Home>the railfreight guards van in there is 100
17:34<andythenorth>I have a OO version of that engine
17:35<andythenorth>it is nuts, I just found it has opening cab doors
17:35<andythenorth>this is not my childhood version :P
17:35<supermop_Home>was looking for railfreight sectors N 47s the other day
17:35<supermop_Home>couldn't find much for sale
17:35<andythenorth>think my brother had one 20 years ago :P
17:35<andythenorth>doesn't help much
17:36<andythenorth>I now have 4 foot by 6 foot of train set
17:36<andythenorth>and 10 foot by 10 foot by 3 foot of stored trains
17:36<andythenorth>oof
17:36<andythenorth>many boxes
17:37<andythenorth>it was nice to have packages arrive during lockdown
17:37<andythenorth>but enough
17:38<supermop_Home>300 cubic feet of trains is a lot?
17:40<CornsMcGowan[m]>damn omg
17:40<CornsMcGowan[m]>do u have any layouts we can see
17:40<andythenorth>it's just an oval
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17:40<andythenorth>2 tracks
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17:45<supermop_Home>last night i had the insane idea to try to use Z track to model 1067mm gauge at N scale
17:46<supermop_Home>and T to model some <2' gauge
17:47<andythenorth>that probably has a name?
17:48<andythenorth>Nn3
17:49<supermop_Home>unfortunately t is too small to model 1067 at Z scall
17:49<supermop_Home>scale
17:50<supermop_Home>and i am not crazy enough yet to scratch build 4.85mm track
17:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on issue #8249: CMake: Not possible to cross-compile due to settinsgen/strgen https://git.io/JJvbJ
17:50<supermop_Home>N and Z track does look super broad under Japanese body shells
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17:52<supermop_Home>model this with the nursery railway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppleton_railway_station
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17:56<andythenorth>o_O
17:56<andythenorth>oof I should sleep
17:56<andythenorth>tomorrow appears soon
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18:12<CornsMcGowan[m]>i forgot: whats the length of diagonal rail vs orthogonal rails?
18:12<CornsMcGowan[m]>i remember somewhere mentioning the subunit counts for them being not quite 1:sqrt(2)
18:15<dP>CornsMcGowan[m], 128 vs 196 iirc
18:16<dP>*192
18:16<CornsMcGowan[m]>tyty :)
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18:19<dP>CornsMcGowan[m], just checked, in subunits it's 192 for diagonal piece and 256 for orthogonal
18:20<CornsMcGowan[m]>o sweet
18:20<CornsMcGowan[m]>i initially thought 192 orthogonal and 128 diagonal
18:22<dP>CornsMcGowan[m], nah, that was from profit calculator, it uses different units
18:22<CornsMcGowan[m]>ohh
18:23<CornsMcGowan[m]>cm profit calc is a blessing
18:30<b_jonas>this is strange, it's as if control-clicking the location button of a train window to follow the train on the main view doesn't work when I'm zoomed out to 50%. it shows the location of the train once but doesn't keep following.
18:33<dP>CornsMcGowan[m], or mb it is 128 and 192, it's confusing as fuck in openttd code
18:34<dP>CornsMcGowan[m], profit calc uses const tile_len = this.is_diagonal ? 128 : 192;
18:34<dP>CornsMcGowan[m], I assume I understood why when I wrote that xD
18:37<CornsMcGowan[m]>dP: hecc that is indeed confusing
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18:40<dP>like wtf, there is UpdateSpeed that returns distance and GetAdvanceDistance that returns speed
18:40<CornsMcGowan[m]>????
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19:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, obviously GetAdvanceDistance would get the Distance that should be Advanced...
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>given a time unit of 1 tick, that conversion can be a noop
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>(although it's probably more like 1/n tick, as the function will get called n times per tick)
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>(where n varies by vehicle type)
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19:37<dP>Eddi|zuHause, actually I was wrong, it returns logical track length
19:37<dP>Eddi|zuHause, so it is distance but not advance
19:38<dP>Eddi|zuHause, but yeah, with 1 tick time frame speed is distance and distance is speed %)
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>dP: there's a field of physics where they just set the speed of light (and some other constants) to 1 and do away with all the units, then E=m and some other simplifications happen
19:47<dP>I finally remembered why it was 128:192, because 1 diagonal piece is 8 subtile steps, so it's 256 * 8 : 192 * 16
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21:56<supermop_Home>now the helicopter is just hovering almost immediately above my apartment
21:56<supermop_Home>for the past 20 minutes
21:59<supermop_Home>presumably due to the budget vote this evening i'd guess
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23:26<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJR5
---Logclosed Wed Jul 01 00:00:12 2020