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#openttd IRC Logs for 2020-07-31

---Logopened Fri Jul 31 00:00:54 2020
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03:59<andythenorth>https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/cheddar_valley.html
03:59<andythenorth>better livery table...??
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05:50<_dp_>andythenorth, blue background looks meh
05:51<andythenorth>strictly it should be grey, but grey is so boring
05:51<_dp_>make it lighter?
05:52<_dp_>otherwise it just blends with color rects and liveries
05:56<_dp_>also you have 2 grey examples but no white :p
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's not immediately obvious what the different liveries are supposed to show
05:59<andythenorth>it's quite a BAD FEATURE
05:59<andythenorth>I'm not sure it's anything other than confusing
06:00<andythenorth>but I don't like the provided method for liveries in the newgrf spec :)
06:02<andythenorth>this light blue might be better https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/cheddar_valley.html
06:04<_dp_>not sure I like the color but it works
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>now the column separators disappear
06:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause good point thanks
06:05<andythenorth>I think the blue can even be lighter maybe
06:05<andythenorth>I'm using DOS palette colours for no good reason :P
06:05<_dp_>xD
06:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJgcH
06:12<andythenorth>we could just do newgrf liveries
06:12<andythenorth>but I don't really want to be involved in spec change :P
06:13<andythenorth>and nobody has ever proposed an implementation that convinced anybody else
06:15<milek7>huh, month ago I bought 4K monitors
06:16<milek7>now I bought 1080p laptop and I'm already annoyed at yagged fonts :P
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what problem is that meant to solve?
06:16<andythenorth>well
06:16<andythenorth>I am unsure
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>see, that's the first problem with convincing anyone :p
06:17<andythenorth>some grfs appear to be what pikka calls 'survey sets'
06:17<andythenorth>and they have that awful livery interface via the refits
06:19<andythenorth>for Iron Horse, wagons / coaches have 2 livery choices, selected by flipping in depot
06:19<andythenorth>which is odd but works
06:20<andythenorth>engines cannot use that as depot-flip is not available for articulated vehicles
06:20<andythenorth>so I have been exploring using company colours
06:20<andythenorth>this is only just viable, as it's quite confusing
06:21<andythenorth>the 1CC colour(s) have to be chosen very carefully as they must be set via groups
06:21<andythenorth>and the group can't set different colours for engines / wagons
06:21<andythenorth>so some 1CC choices produce awful looking wagons/coaches
06:22<andythenorth>also some 2CC combos have to be banned as they look very bad
06:24<andythenorth>one proposal was vehicle variants (copies of the vehicle with a different ID), so the livery is just chosen explicitly via the buy menu
06:24<andythenorth>but that idea died
06:25<andythenorth>I did somewhat try one vehicle per livery in the buy menu, but it's quite spammy
06:25<andythenorth>a further option I could explore is to set the engine livery depending on the cargo, or on wagons in the consist
06:26<andythenorth>but not all liveries look good with all colour combos, so it might still need to check company colours
06:29<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> also some 2CC combos have to be banned as they look very bad <-- i kinda disagree.
06:29<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2FF
06:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause arguably it's the player's choice?
06:29<andythenorth>I'm 50:50 currently
06:30<andythenorth>I'm also trying offering just 'default' and 'alternative'
06:30<andythenorth>rather than 4 or 5 options with more confusing rules
06:34<andythenorth>ok 1 alternative is easier to understand
06:34<andythenorth>another case where 'more' is not better
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>"most people" will only ever see one single livery
06:42<andythenorth>yes
06:42<andythenorth>my audience here is probably me, Supermop and Dave Worley
07:01<andythenorth>this is just simpler https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/resilient.html
07:53<andythenorth>oof I hate getattr() :P
07:53<andythenorth>getattr(my_obj, 'foo, None) masks a lot of errors when refactoring 'foo' to 'bar'
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>and i need to finish this astroneer automation challenge
07:54<andythenorth>don't use getattr :P
07:54<andythenorth>for that
07:54<TrueBrain>use getattr with a lot of care, yes :)
07:55<TrueBrain>it also breaks a lot of linting :)
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>you could, like, use a variable "foo" that contains the text 'foo'
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>that would massively reduce the places that need manual touching on refactoring
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively, you could use try/except like normal people
08:00<TrueBrain>I love the judgement call there, a true gatekeeper remark right there :)
08:01<andythenorth>I enjoy eddi critiques
08:02<andythenorth>'normally' I just pollute the parent class with attrs that only some sub-classes need
08:02<andythenorth>I decided to see what happens if I don't do that
08:03<andythenorth>the answer is a lot of getattr() :P
08:03<andythenorth>I suspect it's worse than polluting the parent class
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>design patterns are weird :)
08:03<andythenorth>"self.foo = None" turns out to just be more explicit for these cases
08:04<andythenorth>where all the sub-classes are similar, and only have subtle differences
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>people defend them religiously as if they were the pinacle of software development, yet all of them have significant downsides
08:04<andythenorth>I thought recently about how much comp sci asserts 'science' and how much of it is just fashion
08:04<andythenorth>people reach to defend a pattern or practice or habit
08:04<andythenorth>with empirical evidence
08:05<andythenorth>but it's usually a failure of induction vs. deduction
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's a primary source of confirmation bias
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>when you go looking for empirical evidence to support the thing you already deem true, you will find it.
08:07<andythenorth>it attracts people who tend to model it as a maths problem
08:07<andythenorth>due to it having quite a lot of maths-type problems
08:07<andythenorth>but writing working software is often more like building a house than doing maths
08:08<andythenorth>building systems at scale is nothing like building a house
08:08<andythenorth>but nor is that a maths problem either
08:09<andythenorth>and if you let linguists do the work, you get Perl :(
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>or worse: cobol :p
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08:51<supermop_Home_>andythenorth i'm down for a supermop only horse release
08:51<andythenorth>lot of unfinished sprites currently
08:52<andythenorth>I can DM you what I have, at your risk :P
08:52<andythenorth>also I stripped it down to 1 alternative livery per engine
08:52<supermop_Home_>andythenorth: https://imgur.com/a/isoLIWO render material experiment
08:52<supermop_Home_>booooo
08:52<andythenorth>ooh
08:52<supermop_Home_>well i wasn't going to ise the EWS liveries anyway
09:01<andythenorth>need an alternative gronk livery :P
09:01<andythenorth>schenker is my favourite, but not until 2000s :P
09:01<Timberwolf>Only problem with using TTD palette colours to build your objects is you end up with output where you may as well dither it down to 8bpp anyway, the difference is marginal.
09:02<Timberwolf>(At least, unless you're on a low pixel density screen at high zoom)
09:02<Timberwolf>The palette is quite good for "I already have this colour, I just want it lighter or darker"
09:03<andythenorth>how's the play test going Timberwolf?
09:03<Timberwolf>2009 or so!
09:04<Timberwolf>I have some annoying clipping bugs that really should be fixed, but I'm not sure if I want to fix it before first version or after.
09:04<andythenorth>I always vote for 'later' when a set is quite new
09:04<andythenorth>get it out there
09:05<Timberwolf>The regular sprites when not going in to or out of a turn should be split in 3 so OpenTTD is rendering what it actually thinks it has, 3 articulated vehicles of L2/L4/L2.
09:05<Timberwolf>Er, actually I just listed one of the cases where there are no clipping problems, pretend I said L3/L6/L3 :p
09:05<andythenorth>sounds painful if cargo is included :)
09:05<andythenorth>are you automating it?
09:05<Timberwolf>Yeah.
09:05<Timberwolf>Sprite stacks ftw.
09:06<Timberwolf>I think I might get GoRender to do something like "only render this slice of object" rather than trying to create a million different subdivided types of train model
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>Timberwolf: but isn't that exactly what i did in CETS?
09:09<Timberwolf>Eddi|zuHause: I don't think I ever delved deep enough for that (I did look at how CETS did the turn switches), but it makes sense. I found the posts you wrote around the time you were prototyping that really helpful.
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>Timberwolf: iirc there were a few corner cases with slopes/foundations
09:09<supermop_Home_>andythenorth NSE
09:09<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ doesn't work at pixel sizes :P
09:09<andythenorth>have to do Extra Zoom :P
09:10<Timberwolf>Yep, exactly that. Tunnels and depots, and tiles on foundations.
09:10<Timberwolf>Stations on foundations are the biggest problem because it's the case where you see it for more than a split second.
09:10<supermop_Home_>executive then?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>Timberwolf: iirc MB once did attempt to fix those, but he hasn't told me how he did it
09:11<supermop_Home_>actually the gner 08 with the 1/3 length stripe is nice
09:11<supermop_Home_>or virgin just plain red and black
09:12<andythenorth>https://grf.farm/images/nse.png
09:12<andythenorth>not enough pixels :P
09:12<supermop_Home_>someone easily could have painted the virgin or gner liveries in the 50s
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09:12<Timberwolf>I'm mostly procrastinating on it because it means figuring out more alignments.
09:12<Timberwolf>Alignments and me have a love/hate relationship.
09:13<Timberwolf>On the one hand, what I'm doing is only possible because you can abuse xrel/yrel all over the place and OpenTTD will still render it.
09:13<supermop_Home_>Timberwolf the idea is to not have to pick out all the lighter / darker shades
09:13<Timberwolf>On the other... (runs screaming)
09:36<supermop_Home_>though CC is not what i'd use this for
09:37<supermop_Home_>just using that to test fidelity
09:37<andythenorth>now I need to....improve presentation of train stats :) https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/slug.html
09:38<andythenorth>table? list? top trumps?
09:45<supermop_Home_>i want to use it more to model buildings that are brick or concrete, with noise or displacement added, but with the hues in the spirit of the dos palette
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10:01<Timberwolf>Once nice test case is recreate one of the Simon Foster sprites (or OpenGFX, I guess) using the pipeline.
10:02<Timberwolf>e.g. https://i.imgur.com/7T90p4s.png :)
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10:12<Eddi|zuHause>for a forest moon there isn't really all that much forest going on...
10:16<andythenorth>pretty neat Timberwolf
10:19<supermop_Home_>Timberwolf what are you working in?
10:33<Timberwolf>MagicaVoxel for building the objects.
10:35<Timberwolf>Then my own tooling for combining and rendering them (and templating NML) because I like things to go wrong during the build process and have them be my fault.
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11:16<supermop_Home_>what i'm looking to do is a little different, as i am modeling furniture and buildings every day in rhino+grasshopper with v-ray, so looking for a way to make Foster-y looking renderings with the toolset i'm already using for work
11:17<supermop_Home_>and hopefully if instead of using bitmap textures i use surfaces with palette colors applied, the end result after rendering and scaling will be something that doesn't look muddy or lifeless
11:20*andythenorth writes css
11:20<andythenorth>I frigging hate writing proper css, it's so wrong
11:21<andythenorth>either inline styles on the tags, or generate the stylesheets
11:21<andythenorth>don't write it :(
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11:29<andythenorth>the war on inline css was the stupidest thing ever
11:29*andythenorth starts a newsletter
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12:14<andythenorth>ugh
12:14<andythenorth>I hate frigging <dl>
12:14<andythenorth>because <table> is banned, have to use stupid fucking definition lists
12:15<andythenorth>but they can't be styled how I want as they have very strict flow control rules
12:21<_dp_>andythenorth, display:table; :p
12:21<andythenorth>if only :P
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12:33<andythenorth>mais oui un docs https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/lark.html
12:33<andythenorth>le supermop_Home_ ^ c'est improve?
12:35<_dp_>andythenorth, don't think it was supposed to look like this https://i.imgur.com/bWaExN9.png
12:35<andythenorth>nope
12:35<andythenorth>this is the stupid definition list crap
12:35<andythenorth>which I have to use because some dude wrote a blog post once
12:35<andythenorth>about tables
12:36<_dp_>that's ff 79 on linux fyi
12:36<andythenorth>rad
12:36<andythenorth>I hate this crap :|
12:36<andythenorth>maybe I have beer
12:38<andythenorth>the current html fashion du jour rules are this
12:38<andythenorth>1. if you have a linear list, use a list
12:38<andythenorth>2. if you smoke crack, re-create tabular data in other structures, like nested divs, or dumb crap
12:39<andythenorth>3. if you don't smoke crack, use <table> for tabular data....EXCEPT
12:39<andythenorth>4. when the data only contains 1 set of headings and 1 set of values, in which case anyone who doesn't use <dl> is killing kittens and causing the heat death of the universe
12:40<andythenorth>5. if you have a reporting system which can generate data with headings and 1..n columns, rule 4 ruins your day
12:40<andythenorth>I am definitely having beer, this is mad
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12:59<supermop_Home_>andy just design a printed typeset binder that you mail to the users
12:59<supermop_Home_>you can mail out addenda and errata later to those who subscribe
13:00<andythenorth>then the typography geeks will come after me
13:00<supermop_Home_>indeed
13:00<andythenorth>oof the problem is people eh
13:00<supermop_Home_>then you can spend all your time on kerning instead of drawing sprites or coding industries
13:01<andythenorth>_dp_ this work for you? :P https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/shoebox.html
13:02<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ or analysing bleed on different paper stocks
13:02<_dp_>andythenorth, well, ofc, it's bloody tables :/
13:03<andythenorth>the shame
13:03<andythenorth>I've used a table
13:03<andythenorth>and the data is barely 2 dimensional
13:03<andythenorth>I mean, strictly, it is 2 dimensional
13:03<_dp_>I was actually curious how you fixed it untill I looked at the code xD
13:03<andythenorth>every few years I try to use a dl
13:03<_dp_>because I've no idea where that dl got 5px margin
13:04<andythenorth>I have to remind myself that most web pages are coded by fuckwits
13:04<andythenorth>and most of the 'standards' advice is given by fuckwits
13:04<andythenorth>people who are neither designers, nor programmers
13:04<andythenorth>oh wait, that's like me :(
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13:05<andythenorth>ok now we just need the url shortener in bananas
13:05<andythenorth>and a link from each vehicle in purchase menu
13:05<_dp_>dl is some responsibility/mobile thing iirc
13:05<andythenorth>dl is an argument about semantics of 2-dimensional data about a single entity or single set of values
13:06<andythenorth>+ a load of bullshit about "table tag is banned" or "table tag is not accessible" or "table tag is slow to render" and other crap
13:06<andythenorth>oof clearly I woke up grumpy andythenorth
13:06<andythenorth>someone should kick andythenorth :P
13:07<_dp_>I usually just do class="dl-horizontal" :p
13:07<andythenorth>so should I put in the images for the 'replaces' 'replaced by trains'?
13:07<andythenorth>also a link to tech tree :P
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13:09<andythenorth>I want to format '2900hp' as '2,900hp' but that will trigger the Euro people?
13:13<LordAro>needs more localisation
13:15<b_jonas>it won't trigger me
13:16<b_jonas>you already have a thousands separator for oil quantity I think
13:19<andythenorth>LordAro absence of any localisation so far :P
13:19<andythenorth>i18n anyone?
13:22<b_jonas>it's a graphical sandbox simulation game, not a story-based one with lots of dialog. it doesn't need more i18n than an English and a Japanese version.
13:25<andythenorth>are we talking about train whack?
13:25<andythenorth>which game? :)
13:25<LordAro>andythenorth: there is no other game
13:28<_dp_>crazy idea of the day: combine train whack with profit calculator xD
13:29<andythenorth>or a calculator for how many tiles of slope you can go up before your train stops?
13:32<andythenorth>anybody want to convert the ottd train physics to a python version? :P
13:32<andythenorth>can't be that hard?
13:34<_dp_>andythenorth, with old one it will always be 1 tile :p
13:34<andythenorth>bring it back!
13:34<andythenorth>OTTD Resurection
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14:03<Wolf01>https://9gag.com/gag/aD421OO lol
14:07<supermop_Home_>Wolf01 this has happen to me in many games when re-working signals
14:08<Wolf01>You see the engineer run away as the trains stops? You must have an insane resolution screen :P
14:11<supermop_Home_>i am sure this is possible in new grf
14:12<supermop_Home_>"if train reverse button clicked while moving, draw fleeing engineer sprite"
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15:35<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ I did some of the descriptions :P
15:35<andythenorth>https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/merlion.html
15:35<andythenorth>such backstory, such rich historical detail
15:35<andythenorth>https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/growler.html
15:36<andythenorth>https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/vigilant.html
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15:37<andythenorth>think this is my favourite, the quote is stolen https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/lemon.html
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15:48<andythenorth>I am channeling Mr. Fox :P https://youtu.be/mzscL1eSYvw?t=45
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15:57<Eddi|zuHause>ah finally i've managed to set up an automatted astronium miner
15:57<supermop_Home_>I'M liking these andy
15:57<supermop_Home_>i also like the pink stripe railfreight
16:02<andythenorth>:)
16:03<andythenorth>I want to show related engines on the page, or visualise some part of the tech tree or something
16:03<andythenorth>it feels very easy to get lost currently
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16:08<supermop_Home_>well i refrained from buying sneakers today
16:09<supermop_Home_>unfortunately didn't refrain from buying oxfords though
16:09<supermop_Home_>let's take the trains out for a spin andy
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16:29<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/iron-horse-2.7.0-108-gbccd3b80.tar
16:30<andythenorth>https://grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/iron-horse-2.7.0-108-gbccd3b80.tar
16:30<andythenorth>may not be there forever :P, temp url
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16:40<supermop_Home_>yay
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17:59<andythenorth>I stuck in some tech tree crap at the bottom https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/blind_smuir.html
18:00<GT>On https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_List we have many direct links to bananas like: http://binaries.openttd.org/bananas/newgrf/Hungarian_2CCSET-beta0.0.5.tar.gz . But that seems to be broken. Is there a new link-scheme, or just not available anymore?
18:06*andythenorth bed
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18:09<+glx>GT: for now there's no direct download link
18:10<GT>Does that mean it will return or should we remove it from the wiki?
18:28<b_jonas>ok, I think I figured out how to work around this town where I can't raise my authority rating
18:29<GT>Bribe 'em or plant trees
18:30<b_jonas>already too many trees around them
18:31<+glx>remove trees then replant
18:31<+glx>rating can't drop more ;)
18:31<b_jonas>glx: I might do that for some other towns
18:32<b_jonas>but here, I can extend the station so that the corner of the new part of the station will be out of their zone, while I keep the existing part inside their zone so it catches the cider mill. it will be an ugly station, but it works
18:33<b_jonas>in the previous game I managed that by building bus stations and bus services in many towns just to keep my authority rating up if there aren't other services that keep it up, but that's annoying, plus I don't want the towns to grow too big early, and this is a FIRS game where I'm concentrating on industry and don't want to make passenger services until later
18:35<_dp_>enable magic bulldozer or set economy.dist_local_authority 0
18:36<b_jonas>_dp_: magic bulldozer doesn't help me buld a station
18:36<b_jonas>plus I'd consider it cheating if I used it that way
18:36<_dp_>it will help you not get bad rating for trees in future
18:36<b_jonas>I would be willing to use magic bulldozer to remove a statue of myself that's in the way
18:37<b_jonas>I might try the tree thing later anyway, I hate ugly stations and will want to clean this up
18:37<_dp_>lol, whatever, if that's cheating then, have fun dealing with authorities :p
18:38<b_jonas>oh nice, the drag station size feature lets me build an 8 long station
18:38<b_jonas>so I can actually build that and then remove the front 3 squares and then it won't be ugly
18:38<b_jonas>it will look like a perfectly normal 5x5 station
18:40<GT>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/ and http://binaries.openttd.org/bananas/newgrf both unreachable. Wiki linkrot smell alert
18:44<b_jonas>btw the cider mill has a spire with a white flag that is placed in just a way that it makes the path signal at the exit of the station look like a one-way path signal, that always looks like an error to me, but in fact it isn't one way, trains can leave the station on that exit
18:50<b_jonas>this map is basically all dense forest by the way, except in the water parts and the squares covered by towns and industries
18:50<b_jonas>it's ridiculous, the other maps I play usually have at least some areas without too many trees
18:51<b_jonas>I guess it's partly because this FIRS temperate basic economy doesn't have farm field squares
18:51<b_jonas>but even then
18:52<b_jonas>ok, this farm network is fixed for now
18:53<b_jonas>this might be the time when I enter passenger business, although I'd start with maglev because the good vac trains aren't invented yet
18:54<b_jonas>either that, or I could try some more food business now that I have good trains
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18:59<b_jonas>I could build a maglev to transport cattle both ways here
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19:02<b_jonas>transporting *milk* both ways here I mean
19:03<b_jonas>I'm not used to FIRS
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20:01*Timberwolf uploads alpha versions to forum post
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20:21<b_jonas>I still can't serve the steel mill with enough steel trains. I'm selling my 36 steel trains and 8 goods trains and upgrading this line to maglev.
20:22<b_jonas>upgrading might not be enough, but I don't think it will make this worse
20:31<b_jonas>wee, mass train purchase! 36 maglevs
20:35<b_jonas>although I may have to sell a few of these. 36 monorails seemed to be less than the capacity of the network I built, so that I would have bought more, but I'll probably be able to run somewhat fewer maglevs than monorails. we'll see, currently they're in a temporary jam from starting them all at once.
20:38<b_jonas>FINALLY! 69% rating on the steel
20:38<b_jonas>they do seem to be jamming so I'll sell a few
20:40<b_jonas>steel rating is still rising
20:41<b_jonas>I may still have to get back to this, to be able to transport enough goods, but this is much better than it used to be
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 01 00:00:56 2020