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#openttd IRC Logs for 2020-11-20

---Logopened Fri Nov 20 00:00:35 2020
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13:10*andythenorth stuck on silly company colour issues
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13:27<andythenorth>maybe hmm
13:28<andythenorth>can we have a newgrf var for 'vehicle group name contains substr [str]' returns bool or count (maybe just bool)
13:28<andythenorth>I am not trolling
13:28<andythenorth>would it be network safe?
13:34<FLHerne>It would be, but why?
13:35<andythenorth>"Coal trains (Railfreight)"
13:35<andythenorth>"Coal trains (EWS)"
13:35<andythenorth>"Stone trains (Freightliner)"
13:35<andythenorth>look for the strings, set the appropriate livery
13:36<andythenorth>I am just looking for any user-configuration point for trains
13:36<andythenorth>I know cargo subtypes is the official method for adjusting train properties, but the UI sucks
13:37<andythenorth>ctrl-click only offers 1 bit of configuration
13:37<Wolf01><andythenorth> look for the strings, set the appropriate livery <- fuck with translations
13:37<andythenorth>and company colour settings don't work great in grops
13:37<andythenorth>I started thinking about configuration via container, not instance
13:37<longtomjr>Maybe there is a way to make the cargo subtypes ui better. maybe use a 2 column design?
13:38<andythenorth>maybe but it would need to be n-dimensional
13:38<Wolf01><andythenorth> I know cargo subtypes is the official method for adjusting train properties, but the UI sucks <- then *someone* should address that
13:38<andythenorth>subtypes are used for power, gearing, capacity, livery
13:39<longtomjr>Yep, but maybe just a column for cargo type, and then whatever else the grf use the cargo subtypes for
13:39<longtomjr>So you can get away with 2 columns
13:39<FLHerne>Just do the UKRS2 thing and pick any suitable livery for the era
13:39<FLHerne>Giving each train its own livery is pointless micromanagement
13:40<longtomjr>Each group is fun though
13:40<FLHerne>You could rotate them by year of build or something, if you really must have all of them
13:41<longtomjr>I don't mind the cargo subgroup refit ui currently
13:41<FLHerne>All class 66s built in 2000 are EWS, all the 2001 ones are Freightliner, blah
13:41<longtomjr>but I agree that it could be better.
13:42<andythenorth>I use the liveries to see different routes
13:42<longtomjr>I am pro-liveries, I think it is fun to play with. I am however also someone that sits in the object and station menu, clicking and scrolling around for hours.
13:43<andythenorth>I don't do all them realistic, it's just a side effect
13:43<longtomjr>and still build terrible eyecandy
13:43<longtomjr>I also don't care about having them realistic. I want them for seperate groups as well
13:43<andythenorth>I already have all the engine livery options I could ever want
13:43<andythenorth>it's the wagons that are puzzling
13:44<longtomjr>especially in co-op infrastructure sharing games, where you run a bunch of inter city trains to the other players, and you want them all to look different because it is fun
13:44<andythenorth>how about I just add colour variants of every wagon to the buy menu?
13:44<andythenorth>e.g. 'box car red', 'box car blue', 'box car green'
13:44<longtomjr>Can that not just be done with 2cc?
13:45<longtomjr>and add a part to the description of the wagon saying what colors result in what livery looks?
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13:48<longtomjr>You can just have it as cargo subtypes for the wagons, and then you can just multi-select the wagons in the refit menu
13:53<andythenorth>I never use refit menu :)
13:53<andythenorth>awkward I know :)
13:53<andythenorth>I am trying to use side channels because I hate the official API for modifying vehicles
13:57<FLHerne>Perhaps there should be an API for grfs to add extra settings per train/group/company
13:57<FLHerne>Sort of extended action14
13:58<FLHerne>But instead of specifying parameters it would specify a set of vehicle variables
13:59<FLHerne>precedence would be train > group > [parent group] > company
14:01<longtomjr>andythenorth, can you not just work around the official api for modifying vehicles since you can just generate with scripts?
14:01<longtomjr>or am I missing something
14:01<FLHerne>longtomjr: Then the vehicle list would be ludicrously unusable instead
14:02<andythenorth>FLHerne I wondered about that, extensible [something]
14:02<longtomjr>I meant doing it the cargo subtype way
14:02<FLHerne>(possibly this is news to anyone who's used the station list with nine million custom tiles)
14:03<andythenorth>I was hopeful about just using grf parameters
14:04<andythenorth>but it's very definitively not per vehicle or per train or per group
14:05<andythenorth>I could modify all the engines to only use 1CC
14:05<andythenorth>and then set all wagons to 2CC
14:05<andythenorth>then the group livery can be used for modifications
14:05<longtomjr>Or have the engines be cargo subtypes (since you only need 1 cargo type for them, since they wont have capacity in most cases), and use cc for wagons
14:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why wouldn't the wagons just follow the loco colorscheme?
14:07<FLHerne>Not necessarily the same colour, but the corresponding one
14:07<andythenorth>there's a sub-genre of players who like to use grey / brown etc for the wagons
14:07<andythenorth>I can make realistic wagon liveries follow realistic engine liveries
14:08<andythenorth>grainflow hoppers with railfreight 37s :P
14:08<FLHerne>Yeah, so "if loco is green, make wagons grey, else if loco is blue make wagons brown"
14:08<FLHerne>or something
14:08<andythenorth>yes, I've got that in a grf parameter currently
14:09<longtomjr>RUKTS has some decent livery selection options, only using the refit. Don't think there is anything for the cargo wagons though
14:09<longtomjr>tbh, I would probably like to play with my wagons gray or brown in most cases
14:09<andythenorth>the challenge is how to combine 'andythenorth chooses your colours' and 'you choose your own colours'
14:09<andythenorth>without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour
14:10<longtomjr>Iron Horse 2cc, and Iron Horse livery set
14:10<longtomjr>The target group is probably different enough that 2 grfs makes sense
14:10<longtomjr>Maybe you can do something smart during the build process to just output 2 grf files
14:11<andythenorth>it's not really a newgrf problem, in the final analysis
14:12<andythenorth>I guess all I'm trying to do is fix that group liveries doesn't support wagon colours
14:12<andythenorth>I really group liveries
14:12<andythenorth>and I really like being able to set wagon colours
14:12<andythenorth>so I'm just trying to fix OpenTTD using newgrf
14:12<longtomjr>the 1cc engine + 2cc wagon seems like a decent idea
14:13<andythenorth>I'd need a grf parameter for the second engine colour
14:13<longtomjr>Maybe make that a parameter
14:13<longtomjr>or just have a complement color that is automatically chosen depending on the chosen color?
14:14<longtomjr>it is the lukewarm compromise, but for most cases it will probably be fine
14:15<andythenorth>I think the find(string) route in group name would be interesting
14:15<longtomjr>Also, doing these things with parameters does not really work great with multiplayer games
14:15<andythenorth>nor for most players who do not have grf developer tools enabled
14:15<andythenorth>'Freight (green)'
14:16<andythenorth>'Freight (75:13 gearing)'
14:16<andythenorth>'Freight (slower speed, reduced running cost)'
14:16<andythenorth>basically a text API to modify vehicles
14:16<longtomjr>I honestly don't see the benefit of that over using cargo subtypes
14:17<andythenorth>well it applies to the whole group trivially
14:17<longtomjr>Hmm, I think I would probably just use template replacement for that then. but I think that is a JGRPP feature
14:17<longtomjr>or add it to a refit at station command
14:18<andythenorth>also the text API doesn't require looking through (for example) 192 options in the refit list
14:18<andythenorth>refit to station can't and won't support subtypes
14:18<longtomjr>but it does require you to know it
14:18<andythenorth>same as autoreplace can't and won't
14:19<andythenorth>I was thinking the text API could have a cult following, like commands in text adventure games
14:19<andythenorth>with cheat sheets and stuff
14:19<andythenorth>I could make a cheat sheet for Horse, printable
14:21<longtomjr>The way I see it is that the refit list is like an ingame cheat sheet list
14:21<FLHerne>andythenorth: I still don't really understand the issue
14:21<FLHerne>> without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour
14:21<FLHerne>How do groups change that at all?
14:22<andythenorth>the group livery enforces cc1 and cc2 for all groups in the consist
14:22<longtomjr>But yes, scrolling through all the options to get what you want can be grueling (compared to just typing)
14:22<andythenorth>* all consists in the group oof :)
14:22<andythenorth>any other vehicle type cc settings are over-ridden
14:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: But you can still set custom recolour sprites from the grf, no?
14:24<andythenorth>yes, but I can't read the client's wagon colour vars
14:25<andythenorth>the API will let me control player colours any way I want
14:25<FLHerne>Does that matter?
14:25<andythenorth>but the point is that players choose
14:25<andythenorth>I mean, usually, I prefer choosing for players :P
14:25<andythenorth>but setting colours is a player thing
14:25<FLHerne>Wagons are generally either 'colourful' or 'brown' :p
14:25<FLHerne>There's not much middle ground really
14:26<FLHerne>So I think a grf-level setting for "wagons CC" <-> "wagons realistic" would work fine
14:26<FLHerne>Where "realistic" means either "brown/grey" or "some livery corresponding to the loco" or whatever
14:27<FLHerne>(which is kind of what you have now?)
14:27<andythenorth>that's slightly outdated, I added more options since
14:28<FLHerne>That seems like overkill, but ok
14:29<longtomjr>Is there a rainbow mode? where each wagon gets a random color?
14:29<FLHerne>That seems fine. Stop trying to solve nonexistent problems :p
14:30<andythenorth>longtomjr I removed it, but
14:31<longtomjr>Hehe, i like that :)
14:31<andythenorth>I considered making it actually rainbow cycle
14:31<andythenorth>as a stupid easter egg
14:31<longtomjr>Graffiti liveries would also be cool
14:31<andythenorth>I can just measure position in consist mod(7)
14:31<andythenorth>for rainbow
14:32<longtomjr>have every n'th wagon have a colorful graffiti look
14:32<andythenorth>would need actual sprites :)
14:32<andythenorth>so....nah :)
14:32<longtomjr>I would settle for just having every n'th wagon colored
14:33<longtomjr>but anyways, I am off to bed now. Good luck in your colorful quest. Night all!
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14:54<andythenorth>maybe I just remove this colour stuff :D
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16:17<andythenorth>no maybe I just pick better alternate CC shades
16:17<andythenorth>so it looks better
16:18<andythenorth>oh I have an idea :D
16:21<andythenorth>ha ha
16:21<andythenorth>I can check lead engine CC
16:22<andythenorth>if lead engine CC matches vehicle CC, it's probably in a group with group livery set
16:23<andythenorth>I can infer that if they differ, player has made an explicit choice
16:24<andythenorth>and respect it
16:24<andythenorth>if they haven't, set colour according to parameter rule
16:24<andythenorth>side channel trickery :)
16:36<andythenorth>that will have the stupid result that if player hasn't set wagon CC, I'll over-ride their default choice :(
16:52<FLHerne>You have strange concerns
16:52<FLHerne>If the player hasn't set wagon CC, they probably don't care what colour their wagons are
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17:06<andythenorth>I guess it's about player having choice
17:06<andythenorth>not me
17:06<andythenorth>there will be a solution, I just need to figure out the edges
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20:17<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/team] Kiki012184 opened issue #92: [id_ID] Translator access request
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20:29<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/team] Kiki012184 commented on issue #92: [id_ID] Translator access request
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 21 00:00:37 2020