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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-01-04

---Logopened Mon Jan 04 00:00:40 2021
00:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFZH
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01:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFcZ
01:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFcC
01:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFco
01:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFCG
01:46<Heiki>oh, realism
01:52<reldred>muh realisms
01:52<reldred>muh immershuns
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03:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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03:15<andythenorth>is cat?
03:19<reldred>cats are good yes
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04:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8452: Doc: Add labels to landscape grid description. https://git.io/JL555
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04:54<andythenorth>lol things that will never get old
04:54<andythenorth>people in forums (not just tt-forums) posting 'is there any news in this thread since last post'
04:55<andythenorth>it's nice for morons to self-identify
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05:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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05:51<Borg>howdy.....
05:51*Borg cries
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05:54<Borg>any YAPF experts around? I have like a path w/ 4000 penalty.. and those litle bastards still prefers it.. ;)
05:54<Borg>lets see if 6000 will discourage them...
05:55<Borg>not really.... wttttf
05:55<Borg>and even if path is blocked... they want to go there...
05:55<Borg>like wtf^3
05:56<LordAro>you are absolutely on your own when fiddling with yapf penalty values
05:56<Borg>why? :)
05:59<Borg>I noticed 2 oddities w/ penalites generally..
05:59<Borg>big penalty makes path unusuable..
05:59<Borg>its never selected.
06:00<Borg>even if everything is blocked.. completly.. w/ is weird. because I couldnt find that in code
06:01<Borg>okey.. 9000 made it...
06:01<Borg>not fully of course.. still some trains go to aux path.. where pri is free
06:01<Borg>and its not blocked...
06:01<Borg>lets enable pathfinder display
06:03<Borg>what was it?
06:04<Borg>okey found it
06:04<Borg>what was pf.reserve_paths was for?
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06:06<Borg>ahh always reserve path..
06:09<Borg>okey.. time to RTFS again.. and debuglevel yapf=3
06:11<Samu>hello
06:12<Borg>oki doki.. nice..
06:12<Borg>lets read
06:14<+michi_cc>You don't happen to have two-way signals somewhere, do you?
06:14<+michi_cc>Any maybe two_eol on?
06:16<Borg>michi_cc: nope.. I dont use two-way signals at all.. and two_eol is off
06:16<Borg>I just use PBS + oneway block
06:16<Borg>michi_cc: wanna screenshot?
06:17<Borg>and I use trick w/ PBS back signals.. to influence pathfinder.. to have primary path and auxliary path
06:19<Borg>hmm train going to aux path.. cost is 23568.. still selected
06:20<Borg>distance is 0
06:20<Borg>its always 0.. not used in YAPF?
06:24<Borg>now.. when I have 9000 penalty over aux path.. pri is finaly selected.. with cost 14272
06:24<Borg>so.. aux path cost is now sth like 26000+
06:24<Borg>BIG difference..
06:24<Borg>so... 14272 vs 24000 yet... 24000 is selected.. why?
06:25<Borg>I was studing that code.. few times.. and seems cost is importand part of path selection.. of course. if path is blocked by train... anything is better..
06:26<Borg>but if 2 paths are empty.. not reserved by other trains... we have 14272 vs 24000 and yet.. 24000 is selected
06:26<Borg>with is completly weird to me..
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06:37<Borg>how path cache works?
06:46<Borg>okey. I found the reason.. with makes me even more puzzzled
06:46<Borg>station18113094
06:46<Borg>PBS17823568
06:46<Borg>fuck
06:46<Borg>wrong past..
06:47<Borg>at station, I have cost 13094, but later on that path.. on first PBS signal cost is 23568
06:47<Borg>how is that possible?
06:49<Borg>okey.. got entire dump...
06:49<Borg>for whole path it looks like this
06:50<Borg>cost: 13094 -> 23568 -> 22852 -> (passing 2x PBS back signals, 6000 penalty) -> 9381
07:12<Borg>noone? :)
07:13<Borg>and yeah.. whole path is <10 signals.. so signal look ahead.. should kick in
07:19<LordAro>TrueBrain: https://github.com/presslabs/gitfs
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07:25<Borg>what is... segment in pathfinder?
07:47<Borg>another oddity..
07:47<Borg>when I increase look_ahead_signals = 20
07:47<Borg>correct path is selected
07:47<Borg>if (n.m_num_signals_passed >= m_sig_look_ahead_costs.Size() / 2) return 0;
07:47<Borg>in ReservationCost() function
07:48<Borg>wonder why its half of its size
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07:54<FLHerne>Borg: I think 'segment' is a section of plain track between junctions/signals
07:55<FLHerne>So the pathfinder can treat it as a single unit
07:55<Borg>FLHerne: I doubt it.... in code I see stuff like this:
07:55<Borg>segment_cost += Yapf().SignalCost(n, cur.tile, cur.td);
07:55<Borg>all look ahead signals are added..
07:56<Borg>there is also one weird thing
07:56<Borg>if (segment_cost > s_max_segment_cost) {
07:56<Borg>with is worrying.. because s_max_segment_cost is hardcoded to 10000
07:58<Borg>but still.. its weird.. because increasing signals lookup ahead... make it works fine.. so.. im really puzzled
08:07<Borg>okey lets try something stupid
08:08<Borg>as expected.. stupid thing makes things... bad :)
08:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8485: Codechange: improve performance for complex vehicle chains by resolving sprites less often https://git.io/JLF6I
08:17<Borg>okey.. I think I found something..
08:17<Borg>with badly influences my costs
08:17<Borg>pbs_cross_penalty <- can anyone explain me.. what it really is?
08:18<Borg>I increased it.. so trains nicely move into platforms when there are some corssing occupied
08:18<Borg>but.. it seems now.. it destroy things in other places
08:21<Borg>time to make test tracks
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08:30<Borg>okey its not it..
08:30<Borg>changing pbs_crossing to default doesnt change anything
08:33<Borg>now.. doing close inspection on paths..
08:33<Borg>im even more and more puzzled
08:35<Borg>diagnol paths are more expensive?
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08:40<Borg>arfgh!
08:40<Borg>yes they are...
08:41<Borg>and its hardcoded
08:41<Borg>so its best to AVOID them....
08:44<Borg>okey..
08:44<Borg>now is all clear why other patch is still prefered..
08:44<Borg>there is quite long diagonal track in pri path...
08:45<Borg>with gets probably around 1500+ cost
08:45<Borg>what was the reasoning to penalize diagonal tracks?
08:47<Borg>okey. but there is YAPF_TILE_CORNER_LENGTH=71
08:47<Borg>co its 100 vs 71
08:48<Borg>so its not actually it
08:55<TrueBrain>LordAro: nice :D We basically build that ourselves, but not on FUSE level :P
08:55<LordAro>indeed not
08:55<LordAro>FUSE level is a bit cursed
08:55<TrueBrain>I rather like that we decide when to commit/push, honestly :)
08:55<TrueBrain>but I understand why they did it :D
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09:10<Borg>guys.. I really need help w/ that
09:10<Borg>Im trying to understand why my short path.. with like 3-4 signals is sooo expensive
09:12<LordAro>Borg: here's what you should do (that i think i've told you before) :
09:12<LordAro>1) remove all pathfinder settings from your openttd.cfg
09:12<LordAro>2) don't touch them again
09:12<Borg>thans not the solution
09:12<Borg>because default settings do NOT work
09:13<LordAro>i can almost promise that the number of people who have actually changed any of those settings in a useful way in the last 15 years can be counted on 1 hand
09:13<LordAro>no one knows what those values are, or what they are doing
09:13<LordAro>they work
09:13<LordAro>so don't touch them
09:14<SpComb>MAGIC
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09:16<Borg>okey.. lets set them to default
09:16<Borg>to see what happens..
09:24<Borg>yeah... MAGIC.... does NOT fucking work..
09:24<Borg>as expected..
09:26<Borg>adding 4500 penalty on path..
09:26<Borg>jaj.. selected..
09:26<Borg>lets see if its persistent
09:27<Borg>difference between paths cost is very small.. weird
09:27<Borg>aux path have +4500 penalty additionally
09:27<Borg>all default settings
09:27<Borg>is there something obvious I dont see?
09:29<andythenorth>https://youtu.be/e0U29z4iXFo?t=46
09:30<TrueBrain>I somehow expected to be rickrolled :)
09:30<Borg>11594 vs 6062..
09:31<Borg>really..
09:32<Borg>again.. path w/ cost 11594 selected
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>do they talk about how on patch-day the government has to turn off the projector that simulates the moon on the sky?
09:32<Borg>where 6062 is empty.. no reservations.. green lights..
09:32<TrueBrain>didn't you hear they are making tinfoilhats mandatory?
09:32<Borg>default settings..
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>why aren't there any people wearing tinfoil masks
09:32<Borg>I paused and saved
09:32<andythenorth>https://youtu.be/e0U29z4iXFo?t=456
09:33<andythenorth>"but you hate magic"
09:33<andythenorth>"yes but it has a small carbon footprint"
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>oh man that's like a conspiracy gold mine :p
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>and this is from 2009?
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09:37<Borg>okey.. so noone wanna take a look at my save?
09:39<FLHerne>Where's your save?
09:40<FLHerne>(if it doesn't have a hundred unobtainable grfs)
09:40<Borg>if (m_pBestDestNode == NULL || n < *m_pBestDestNode) { <- uhm.. n is Node (is it class?) can we do comparision like this?
09:42<Borg>FLHerne: nah, just too small GRFs, they are here:
09:42<Borg>ftp://ds-1.ovh.uu3.net/home/borg/openttd/BSPI.grf
09:42<Borg>ftp://ds-1.ovh.uu3.net/home/borg/openttd/X2025.grf
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i remember why i made an ignore list... they keep having the obscurest problems and don't take the sane advice
09:43<Borg>save is here: http://node.borg.uu3.net/Rand4.sav
09:44<LordAro>are pathfinder settings even saved?
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>almost certainly
09:44<Borg>yes
09:44<Borg>they are in save game.. but... now they are all default
09:45<Borg>except depot penalty..
09:45<Borg>with in that case have no meaning
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10:24<supermop_Home>andythenorth ocean water cycle for pool like temperate hotel?
10:30<Borg>FLHerne: hey, are you going to take a look? or no time atm? I have things setup and waiting
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>because pools are known for meter-high waves?
10:32<supermop_Home>Eddi|zuHause the rooftop pool in the temperate base set never looked all that pleasant to swim in
10:32<supermop_Home>though it was one of those things i noticed as a fascinating detail when i was a kid
10:37<Timberwolf>The one that used to drive me made in temperate base was the passenger carriage.
10:37<Timberwolf>The one in arctic/subtropical is so much nicer.
10:39<andythenorth>supermop_Home blue, with a few ocean dots
10:39<TrueBrain>i'm blue daladilada
10:40<Borg>FLHerne: and segment is probably between junction/branches.. can contain many signals...
10:41<supermop_Home>TrueBrain i think it goes da BA di da ba dai
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>some sentences are worse than rickrolling :p
10:42<TrueBrain>turns out it is daba dee ba da die
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>there's a "da" missing
10:42<TrueBrain>la and ba are very hard to differentiate, but yeah
11:03<supermop_Home>i guess landscape architecture is not really my thing - really lackluster groundsprites so far here
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11:11<supermop_Home>andythenorth do you put greenery on the sprite or let grass show through from a baseset tile?
11:11<andythenorth>I draw greenery usually
11:11<andythenorth>depends how terrain dependent I wanted it to be
11:14<supermop_Home>i guess a hotel has a grounds crew
11:15<supermop_Home>do you think there is enough for ogfx now?
11:16<FLHerne>Borg: What's the issue supposed to be, then?
11:16<FLHerne>(sorry, I tend to squeeze in IRC between other things...)
11:17<FLHerne>I have the save open, nothing looks obviously stuck
11:18<LordAro>FLHerne: you should polish your crystal ball
11:20<Borg>okey.. some final tought.. with yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 10 YAPF is completly not deterministic to play.. in that track layout (default settings or mine settings)
11:21<Borg>changing that to 20.. makes thing works right!!
11:21<Borg>FLHerne: please redownload Rand4_tmp1.sav
11:21<Borg>because I went futher with tests..
11:21<Borg>so I copied that snapshot..
11:22<Borg>FLHerne: so if you have time now.. we can go step by step
11:23<FLHerne>ok
11:23<Borg>okey, let me open it too
11:23<Borg>Now locate train 37
11:23<Borg>also, please set show reserved paths
11:23<Borg>train 37 now selected path is kinda wrong
11:24<Borg>it destination is Pratbourne Halt
11:24<Borg>it should chose that path straight on that junction under bridge
11:24<Borg>its shorter.. it doesnt have 4500 penalty
11:25<Borg>and there is nothing wrong with it.. its also.. EMPTY
11:25<Borg>if you follow the path the train will go now..
11:25<Borg>you will see PBS signal after bridge and junctions... and 3 PBS back signals
11:25<Borg>this is my aux path.. w/ should be selected rary
11:26<Borg>or just unpase the game.. and track the train
11:26<Borg>will be easier I think
11:26<Borg>if you got it.. you can just unpause the game.. and watch most trains go that way
11:29<Borg>you can also play with: debuglevel yapf=3
11:29<Borg>and pause game in right moment and check paths costs..
11:29<FLHerne>I can see it, that is a little odd
11:30<Borg>I still didnt fugured out what is open vs closed
11:30<Borg>yeah.. very odd.. especially. if you cound all signals on path.. they are <10
11:30<Borg>s/cound/count/
11:31<Borg>now.. change the setting: yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 20
11:32<Borg>and they should now select correct path
11:33<FLHerne>LordAro: fwiw, the issue is reproducible with default PF settings and doesn't seem obviously explicable
11:33<Borg>the only place I found that MIGHT influence this:
11:35<LordAro>intriguing
11:35<Borg>trying to find it.. now..
11:35<LordAro>presumably needs some reducing to a minimal example
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>it goes away if you turn the intermediate signals into path signals
11:35<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: hah, that's exactlt what I was just doing
11:36<Borg>got it: if (n.m_num_signals_passed >= m_sig_look_ahead_costs.Size() / 2) return 0;
11:36<Borg>but.. I aint expert... so.. hard to say
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no
11:37<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: I doubt it go away.. because block signals penalty is added only when they are RED
11:37<Borg>if they are GREEN.. no penalty.. and checking them to PBS.. means no penalty either
11:37<Borg>s/checking/changing/
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>right, turned some more signals, now it seems to work better
11:38<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Which ones? It doesn't work for me
11:38<FLHerne>I tried the pair by the lake, then all of them on both routes
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11:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's weird, sometimes it works for a moment, and then it stops
11:40<Borg>wtf!
11:40<Borg>now its even more weirded
11:40<Borg>I removed all PBS back signals..
11:40<Borg>and it works as it SHOULD.. because upper path.. should have imo sligher cost.. that down path
11:40<Borg>the only difference is.. im still at look_ahead_max_signals = 20
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>now i also turned the ones right after the destination station
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>what makes this more difficult to diagnose is that servicing is enabled
11:44<Borg>but all trains have goto depoint for maintenance? and it kicks not often.. 540 days
11:44<Borg>so it should not influence it at all?
11:45<Borg>also u can turn on: order.no_servicing_if_no_breakdowns 1
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, my conclusion: don't mix block and path signals
11:45<Borg>I have no break doents
11:46<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: huh?!! how come.. block signals are essecinal for balancing
11:46<Borg>parameters: yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p*
11:46<Borg>without block signals.. penalties never kick in..
11:46<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: did you make my track works only by changing signals to PBS? all of them?
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, they still take the long detour sometimes, when the routes are blocked. this is usually because the more signals they go through on the alternate path makes it drop the check whether paths are reserved, which makes it APPEAR shorter
11:47<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: thats good!! even more.. excelent.. thats what AUX path is for
11:47<Borg>take it.. when stuff is blocked..
11:47<Borg>but if not... go primary :) thats the goal design here
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>if you remove some signals, that situation should be less likely
11:48<Borg>but.. now.. train do go AUX.. even when PRI is empty.. and free
11:48<Borg>okey.. lets try it
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>which leads to the other conclusion: don't give the trains too many options
11:49<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: there are just 2 options there..
11:49<Borg>okey.. 3 at best
11:49<Borg>is that too much already? :(
11:50<Borg>okey..I removed some block signals
11:50<Borg>still wrong path selected
11:50<Borg>can you provide me your save game?
11:51<Borg>I wanna see design now
11:51<Borg>to sum up... Im kinda happy that yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals have big influence on that
11:52<Borg>so... I need to recalc p0,p1,p2 tables again.. and might be nice workaround
11:53<Borg>hmmm
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>there's no real reason for this "AUX" path to exist. it doesn't have more capacity for holding trains, and no overflow depot
11:53<Borg>I removed last block signal on path.. and.. it started to work..
11:53<Borg>oh.. there is
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>in the worst case, it locks up, and blocks your other routes
11:54<Borg>just stop 2 trains there
11:54<Borg>you will see how AUX path gets used
11:54<Borg>thats the point
11:54<Borg>if its blocked.. get detour
11:54<Borg>AUX path was first also.. I added botton path to unload the AUX because its used for other trains..
11:55<Borg>I remember I had problems w/ block signals before.. that somehow paths w/ block signals were more preffered.. somehow
11:55<Borg>but I never dug up this in source code..
11:57<Borg>heh weird
11:57<Borg>I rememoved block signals.. and for few trains it worked
11:57<Borg>now.. they still select AUX path... wtf
11:57<Borg>okey.. not all..
11:57<Borg>nows its feel kinda balanced
11:58<Borg>when its a bit blocked... then AUX path is used
11:58<Borg>not bad..
11:59<Borg>adding ONE block signal.. into AUX path.. just after that crossing bridge
11:59<Borg>completly change YAPF behavior..
11:59<Borg>now all trains go via AUX path..
11:59<Borg>and I cant find that in source code.. cost calculator..
12:00<Borg>SignalCost() is easy
12:00<FLHerne>Borg: It's kind of bad form to spam IRC with 20 lines of stream-of-consciousness rambling
12:00<Borg>if its RED.. and not PbsSignal.. just add cost
12:01<Borg>FLHerne: sorry...
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>here's what i think is happening: https://ibin.co/5n6vbgvxe6mH.png
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>that path has 10 signals, and after 10 signals, the "is this track occupied?" check is dropped
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>so if both the platforms and the holding tracks before them are occupied, this longer route is being treated as "shorter"
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12:04<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: w000t? . how come? how more signals make it shorter?
12:04<FLHerne>Because it only cares about track occupancy in the first 10 signal sections
12:05<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: also: please removed back signals.. it will make it <10 signals and it will be still prefered
12:05<FLHerne>And track occupancy is very high-cost
12:05<Borg>FLHerne: whats the variable name of it? I want to check sources.. to understand this...
12:09<Borg>for now I only see one place with that in yapf_costrail.hpp, and it add yapf.rail_lastred_exit_penalty = 10000 to cost. But in my settings I have it set to 0, but still dont help. is there any other places?
12:11<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: also, even if.. this is weird because cost is always added.. so more signals.. more possible costs (not less) so this is counter intuitive as well..
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's also seeing some loop which will increase signal count
12:11<FLHerne>Borg: I think you want yapf.rail_pbs_cross_penalty and yapf.rail_pbs_station_penalty
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12:11<FLHerne>(cost per tile of conflicting track reservation, latter case for stations)
12:12<Borg>FLHerne: that is pbs_cross_penalty ? I had to increase it in my setting.. so trains better balance at platform entrances.. but I dont understand code :(
12:12<Borg>300 -> 1000 make it nice... trains dont wait for platform when some reservation blocks them. they select other uncoopuied platform..
12:12<Borg>with 300.. they were just waiting unnecessary.. blocking flows.
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>the settings are "pbs_cross_penalty" for occupied track, and "pbs_station_penalty" for occupied station. "lastred_exit" doesn't apply because you don't have any exit signals, and PBS signals aren't red or green
12:14<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: okey, I have pbs_station_penalty default... 800 what should I try?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i've temporarily set them both to 100 (= normal track), and i've not seen a train using the AUX track
12:14<Borg>hmm lets try..
12:15<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: ARGH!! thx :)
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>(those are not good settings, just for testing)
12:16<Borg>setting pbs_station_penalty 800 -> 100 made it alone!
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12:16<Borg>all other are default settings
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>i still think you should just remove the AUX track
12:17<Borg>:(
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12:18<Borg>no no.. I will keep it
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>remember, the 800 (=8 tiles) is per station tile, so a 7 tile station will allow for 56 tiles worth of penalties as potential detour
12:18<Borg>wow.... alot..
12:19<Borg>but 800 is default with 100...
12:20<Borg>also.. I dont need to touch pbs_cross_penatly then.. because pbs_station_penalty was also breaking my platform balancing.. damn! one little setting.. so high PF influence..
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>you can reduce that, but you should still have it higher than 100, so trains would choose a free track over an occupied track
12:20<Borg>okey.. thanks a LOT guys.. now I will revert back to my own settings and adjust only pbs_station_penalty and I will check what will happen now..
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>setting it to 100 will probably wreak havoc on other places of your network
12:21<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: if it will be problematic.. it will quickly appear on that Nonningwell West station w/ 5 platforms.. when trains will just wait.. instead tacking unocuppied.. :)
12:21<Borg>still.. worth a try :)
12:27<Borg>so far so good.. w/o PBS back signal at AUX.. its being selected.. with is fine... adding one PBS signal.. solves problem.. it because AUX.. selected only when other blocked.. now lets see if other places have issues now
12:29<Borg>yep..
12:30<Borg>there are problem in other places.. DAMN.. :(
12:32<Borg>time to do RTFS more.. what exacly that pbs_station_penalty do
12:33<Borg>AHA! its near the code I pasted earlier about weird look_ahead_max_signals/2 code in ReservationCost()
12:34<Borg>in one fuction.. all those settings are there.. as well pbs_cross_penalty
12:36<Borg>but. luicky.. those 2 are seems to be used only in ReservationCost()
12:36<Borg>so.. it should be easy to tune it up correctly! :)
12:41<Borg>with is.. not easy
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12:54<Borg>okey.. now I slowly get picture of whats going on..
12:58<frosch123>there is over 6 hours of yapf talk in the log. i guess i was lucky i had to work today?
12:59<Borg>;D
12:59<Borg>yeah... consider yourself lucky...
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: probably better :)
13:02<Borg>is there any reason to cut in half look ahead signal in Reservation Cost?
13:03<Borg>I think best solution would be to set it to larger number like 20? perhaps 30 even.. and carefully recalculate table so past away signals have minor influence on path.
13:03<Borg>touching pbs_station_penalty makes havoc indeed.. like Eddi|zuHause predicted (if you use PBS to balance platforms)
13:04<Borg>as low as I can go there is pbs_station_penalty = 500
13:05<Borg>for for 3 tiles platforms.. it gets 1500. and its enough to balance w/o PBS back signal
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13:18<Samu>#8492 - I've been all day trying to make terraforming less restrictive
13:19<Samu>while it diminishes the cases of flooded houses, it doesn't totally eliminate the issue as it currently stands in the PR
13:20<Samu>the PR approach totally eliminates flooding
13:20<Samu>but might be "overkill" in some cases, I'm unsure yet
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13:31<andythenorth>le oof
13:31<andythenorth>also hi
13:31<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: I think this is a bug... in ReservationCost() that div 2
13:31<Borg>I just made new p0,p1,p2 params adjusted for look_ahead_max_signals=20
13:31<Borg>and it works nicely
13:32<Borg>BUT of course.. I can be unlucky again.. and create path w/ exaclt 20 signals vs shoter.. and it will break again..
13:32<andythenorth>ships ships ships ships ships
13:32*andythenorth ships
13:32<andythenorth>names of ships are Hard
13:36<Borg>so, any YAPF guru, please take a look at ReservationCost() function and comment why we check only on half of look ahead signals here... what was the reasoning..
13:39<Borg>removing that div 2 fixes everything... and makes things work as it should
13:40<+michi_cc>Borg: It fixes everything for your very specific case, nothing more and nothing less.
13:41<Borg>and actually.. im not sure if its wise to have it here at all.. why the check? if we reach Platform Reservation check.. why checking how many signals we passed anyway?
13:41<Borg>is that calc expensive?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: the limit is there because it is a) pretty expensive to check, and b) pretty meaningless if you have a 1000k tile route to the other end of the map, because the situation will be different once you get there
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>the "expensive" part is that it cannot be cached, because it changes all the time
13:52<+michi_cc>And yes, the limit to reservation cost is there to prevent to following complaint: "Why does the train go this other long way, the train in front would be long gone until if it just continued straight".
13:52<+michi_cc>Strike on until, please.
14:02<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: okey right....
14:02<Borg>michi_cc: yeah.. valid point too
14:04<Borg>okey.. so there is more understanding to this now.. lets try other way around.. shorter look ahead...
14:07<andythenorth>it amuses me when people think we have gurus and experts :)
14:07<andythenorth>instead of people just desperately trying to make it work :)
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how much difference is there really? :)
14:09<andythenorth>very good question
14:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] alisaffari97 opened issue #120: [fa_IR] Translator access request https://git.io/JLbeF
14:14<Borg>hooly shit.. now it looks even better
14:14<Borg>look ahead max signals = 5 didt splendit work
14:16<Borg>and thanks to that div/2
14:17<Borg>only final PBS signal check for platform availability
14:18<andythenorth>1926 cargo ship: design speed 11 knots; 2020 hybrid propulsion cargo ship: design speed 11 knots
14:18<andythenorth>lol ships
14:21<LordAro>ooh, Persian
14:21<LordAro>did we have one of them before?
14:22<LordAro>ooh, that's one of the unfinished langs
14:22<LordAro>can eints even handle those?
14:23<frosch123>yes
14:23<frosch123>though possibly not tested as much :)
14:25<frosch123>the previous persian translator was last active 2016-06-12 :)
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14:28<LordAro>:)
14:28<supermop_Home>andythenorth catamaran ferries
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14:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] LordAro commented on issue #120: [fa_IR] Translator access request https://git.io/JLbeF
14:29<andythenorth>yes but not for logs
14:30<FLHerne>The newer ones have vastly lower operating costs
14:30<FLHerne>But no-one cares about running cost in OTTD
14:31<FLHerne>I think with ships you kind of have to accept that the differences are for visual happiness more than gameplay :-/
14:31<FLHerne>(or reinvent the economy)
14:31<andythenorth>yes
14:31<andythenorth>it's just very inconvenient of reality
14:31<andythenorth>it should be arranged for gameplay
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14:38<andythenorth>hmm Train Whack is broken
14:38<andythenorth>it doesn't understand dual-headed engines
14:39<Wolf01>Fix it
14:39<FLHerne>I think it's broken by existing, tbh :p
14:39<Wolf01>Ahaha
14:41*Wolf01 sits down, "let's do something", runs netflix...
14:44<andythenorth>still don't know what to call this type of ship http://www.workboatsinternational.com/small-gen-cargo-pallet-carrier-lpc3581.html
14:44<andythenorth>http://www.workboatsinternational.com/small-gen-cargo-pallet-carrier-lpc3581.html
14:45<andythenorth>the shipping industry calls them 'general cargo' but that doesn't mean general cargo
14:45<andythenorth>it means specifically packaged cargo in palettes, bundles, crates or bags
14:45<andythenorth>general cargo goes in a multi-purpose vessel
14:47<andythenorth>and generally if it's mixed breakbulk it goes in a tweendecker for better use of space
14:47<andythenorth>it's also called packet cargo, but packet cargo doesn't go in a packet ship or a ship in the packet trade, that's for mail and valuables
14:48<andythenorth>the cargo class for this is piece goods, but nobody knows what that is?
14:48<Wolf01>I think you are going too much specific
14:48<andythenorth>you can drive trucks and forklifts onto this type of ship with the ramp, but it's not a ro-ro ship
14:49<andythenorth>Wolf01 yes, I just need a name P
14:49<Wolf01>Simba
14:49<andythenorth>and a working : key
14:50<andythenorth>"Simba Delete This Sprite There is No Valid Name For This Ship Type"? :)
14:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's sort of like a big OSV
14:51<andythenorth>gameplay-wise, it's like a railway goods van
14:52<andythenorth>'van ship'
14:52<FLHerne>Then what exactly is wrong with 'general cargo'?
14:52<andythenorth>it only refits piece goods
14:52<andythenorth>not bulk
14:52<andythenorth>I could change that
14:53<FLHerne>I don't think that's an issue
14:53<andythenorth>it's all kind of lolz anyway, because the ship names can't be seen in game :) grf.farm/images/ship-buy-menu-width.png
14:53<andythenorth>https://grf.farm/images/ship-buy-menu-width.png
14:53<FLHerne>In principle you *could* ship bulk cargoes in bags on something like that, but no-one would
14:54<andythenorth>maybe you're right
14:54<andythenorth>I don't try and name Horse wagons for what they carry
14:54<andythenorth>I just name them for having a name
14:57<andythenorth>maybe Cargo Liner
14:58<andythenorth>the earlier generation will be something like https://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/nora_maersk.html
14:58<andythenorth>which is quite a cool ship imo
15:06<supermop_Home>andy it sounds like a box truck for boats?
15:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFsM
15:07<supermop_Home>also i tried to give all my road vehicles brand names, model numbers, description etc
15:07<supermop_Home>mostly a waste
15:08<supermop_Home>groundsprites grass and snow done btw
15:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under extractive industries https://git.io/JLFsM
15:10<supermop_Home>just call it a box boat or pallet ship
15:10<andythenorth>box boat!
15:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbUq
15:12<supermop_Home>kassebåd
15:12<supermop_Home>Doosboot
15:14<FLHerne>Hm, "box boat" to me always means containers
15:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbUC
15:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbUB
15:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbUE
15:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbUg
15:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbU6
15:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbUQ
15:22<supermop_Home>andythenorth ok apparently I PM'd myself the hotel construction sprites last night
15:22<andythenorth>'oops'
15:26<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blame/24f857ed5edab0bf79b1f0f2c18b9a6280103ffb/town_cmd.c#L538 interesting, it was always there
15:26<Samu>I was wondering why add a cost check for the terraform
15:27<Samu>with costmods that check is gonna not be effective
15:28<Samu>like when water is made cheaper to clear
15:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbTZ
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15:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbkj
15:51<andythenorth>how about industries with no-fly zone? o_O
15:55<frosch123>how can we establish "decide whether something is wanted first, before discussing details how it is done"?
15:56<frosch123>it's a pretty as**ole move have random people request changes, and more work from the PR author, when people are still discussion the feature in general
15:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mattkimber commented on pull request #8485: Codechange: improve performance for complex vehicle chains by resolving sprites less often https://git.io/JLbIR
15:58<LordAro>frosch123: there's the "candidate: *" tags
15:59<LordAro>can't really stop "random people" (even if they're eddi) requesting changes on "unassessed" PRs
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16:03<andythenorth>is the feature 'tunnels' or 'industries can request limitations'?
16:03<andythenorth>or I could just stay out of it also, quite happily
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16:07<frosch123>it's a weird feature. it tries to enforce a certain game-style
16:07<FLHerne>https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/depth_and_breadth_2x.png
16:07<frosch123>but imo players should enforce their own-playstyle by just playing like that
16:07<FLHerne>Eh
16:07<frosch123>so, i tend to: no religion in ottd
16:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8495: Feature: Prevent tunnels from being built under mines https://git.io/JLbIS
16:08<FLHerne>By that argument there should be no costs, no town ratings, no date restrictions, etc.
16:08<andythenorth>FLHerne I swear I didn't draw that XKCD, but I wish I had
16:10<andythenorth>for whatever it's worth, I wouldn't use a restrictions flag in FIRS
16:10<andythenorth>it would just lead to requests for a parameter
16:11<andythenorth>I think there are more interesting things to do than spend extending content API in that direction
16:11<andythenorth>spend time *
16:11<frosch123>FLHerne: what about disallowing to raise/lower corners further than 3 heightlevels from where they were during map generation?
16:11<Borg>I now play for a hour or so.. and no anomalies spotted.... YAPF works fine :)
16:12<FLHerne>frosch123: Oh yes please
16:12<FLHerne>Also, indestructible rivers
16:14<frosch123>ok, second attempt: how annoying is it, when a new industry is constructed over your tunnels, you want to adjust the track layout, remove the tunnel temporary, and notice you cannot put it back?
16:15<frosch123>looks like the town-authority-analogy holds up
16:15<FLHerne>frosch123: Well, they shouldn't be able to mine over your tunnels
16:15<FLHerne>So the industry construction check should fail
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think the logical conclusion would be, that such industries cannot be founded above tunnels
16:17<andythenorth>ok so it's flag, and it has to be handled in per-tile location checks?
16:17<andythenorth>maybe just industry location checks
16:17<frosch123>also, how often does this scenario even happen?
16:18<frosch123>how often do you tunnel under an industry, and how often is it a mine?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i vaguely remember this feature existing in the past
16:18<frosch123>people tend to ignore superfluous secondary industries, and tunnel under them if they are in the way
16:18<frosch123>but primary are always intesrting to service
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't bothered checking out which patchpack that might have been
16:19<FLHerne>My imaginary proper solution:
16:19<FLHerne> - Industries have classes, like cargo-classes
16:19<FLHerne>(including 'IC_MINE')
16:19<frosch123>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=21438
16:20<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> but imo players should enforce their own-playstyle by just playing like that <-- i'm sceptical about this approach, because often it's easier to follow a rule if it's actually enforced
16:20<FLHerne> - GameScripts or similar can filter all actions like I was proposing before
16:20<andythenorth>FLHerne start a discussion! :)
16:20<FLHerne> - Thus, someone who cares can write a GS that refuses to allow a tunnel if it goes under a mine
16:21<frosch123>please start less discussions about features noone is going to implement :)
16:21<andythenorth>TL;DR we already know this shouldn't be a setting because (1) policy: content > settings (2) newgrf industries won't respect the setting meaningfully
16:21<frosch123>a discussion needs something to be discussed
16:22<andythenorth>if someone turns up with a fully working newgrf patch, a test grf, docs, and an nml PR, then...fine?
16:22<FLHerne>frosch123: Yeah, that's my feeling
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i can't imagine GS having the proper access to allow/deny constructions
16:23<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: My idea was that you could register a Squirrel callback to run on each action
16:23<FLHerne>Not just construction
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but there's no such thing as squirrel callbacks
16:24<Eddi|zuHause><FLHerne> - Industries have classes, like cargo-classes <-- what would these classes do differently than the current flags?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>other than being completely arbitrary and difficult to standardize between different GRF/GS authors
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think your suggestion is effectively unimplementable
16:25<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: The current flags are even more arbitrary :p
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>completely aside of the fact that nobody would do it
16:26<FLHerne>It seems to mostly work for cargo-classes
16:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there is a "save" callback
16:26<FLHerne>You get a few odd-looking combinations where vehicle and industry authors didn't quite agree what some flag meant
16:26<FLHerne>But it means that most vehicle grfs work pretty well even with FIRS' 50-whatever cargos
16:27<FLHerne>Which weren't even conceived of when most of those grfs were written
16:28<FLHerne>It may be a bit late for that, of course
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16:38<Samu>can this code be simplified further? https://pastebin.com/pSQZGfw9
16:39<Samu>simplified, readable, that kind of stuff
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16:51*andythenorth finds these ship diagrams fascinating https://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/wpimages/wpe8357759_05_06.jpg
16:51<andythenorth>found loads of them
16:51<andythenorth>much easier to draw when you understand the function of each part
16:57<andythenorth>'trains' cargo? :P https://beta.maerskline.com/-/media/ml/about/our-history/maersk-line-at-90/05-special-cargo/1280x800-herta-maersk-train.jpg?h=450&w=720&la=en&hash=FDB6572F39B550D10F7D7E754496AE8F43EECAA8
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17:03<FLHerne>andythenorth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyIrsZ7Zhs
17:04<andythenorth>always a good watch :)
17:04<andythenorth>nobody died, just
17:06<andythenorth>http://www.cargolaw.com/2012nightmare_emd-loco.html
17:07<supermop_Home>give objects -z height, like discussed for bridges over stations
17:08<supermop_Home>vanilla mines can have a 'depth' of 0, but if andy wants to make mines with -10 depth he can
17:09<andythenorth>andy doesn't :P
17:09<andythenorth>I have zero interest in having industries limit routes
17:09<andythenorth>the nice thing about content APIs is someone else could :P
17:10<supermop_Home>or be crazy and have depth like the meat packing plant
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17:21<supermop_Home>andythenorth do the spritesheets for the ogfx hotel need to arranged same as the current one?
17:21<andythenorth>yup
17:22<andythenorth>I don't mind doing that, but I have my head in other things currently :)
17:23<supermop_Home>k i can do it quickly
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17:37<supermop_Home>which hotel do you want for the base set version?
17:41<supermop_Home>UGH actually my hotel is 5px taller than base set version
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17:57<andythenorth>hotel K BR TR for base set?
17:59*andythenorth must to sleep oops
17:59<andythenorth>so failing to do sensible bedtimes :P
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 05 00:00:41 2021