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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-01-06

---Logopened Wed Jan 06 00:00:42 2021
00:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #8506: Town builds unnecessary junctions on highway https://git.io/JLN40
00:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #8506: Town builds unnecessary junctions on highway https://git.io/JLN40
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03:16<andythenorth>yo
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04:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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04:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
05:01<Wolf01>^ I always hated this :P
05:04<Xaroth>But what if that person just wanted to live out in the wild?
05:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JLNd2
05:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
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05:11<Wolf01>Btw, what if we move some settings in the toolbars? If a setting changes the behaviour of a function it could be moved near that function (still saved as a setting, like the transparency options), you can change it on the fly if needed and don't need to look for it in that mess
05:11<andythenorth>photoshop does a lot of that
05:11<andythenorth>tool-based settings
05:12<andythenorth>remove-wagons in auto-replace is an example we have
05:12<andythenorth>signal spacing is another
05:12<andythenorth>station building UI
05:13<Wolf01>Maybe even ctrl+rightclick+pentacle to show up a combo box for a button?
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>we probably should have all settings in two places: the settings window, where you can search for them, and some other place, where you would expect them
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, not necessarily "all"
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>but for example everything that's in the "new game" dialog, should also be in the settings window
05:15<Wolf01>Yup, in my company's softwares we use to have "setups" where you define what is proposed as default value on forms with selections
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05:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8006: Codechange: Increase scrollbar length limit to UINT_MAX and make their length properly unsigned https://git.io/JLNFW
05:19<TrueBrain>LordAro: 3 real bugs, 1 question, 2 "my brain works different" :P
05:19<TrueBrain>boy, that was hard to review :)
05:19<LordAro>:D
05:26<TrueBrain>"(b > a) ? 0 : a - b" vs "(a < b) ? 0 : a - b" .. GO! :D
05:26<TrueBrain>(and yes, the = doesn't matter here)
05:26<TrueBrain>pretty curious how other people's brains are primed .. do you favour the left or the right?
05:31*Timberwolf tries to follow "make the simpler case come at the end of the line" approach.
05:32<Timberwolf>So technically neither of those!
05:32<TrueBrain>do you want cookie A or cookie B? NEITHER! I WANT A CAKE!
05:32<TrueBrain>:P
05:32<TrueBrain>so you get nothing :P
05:32<TrueBrain>:D
05:33<TrueBrain>even putting "0" at the end, you still have both cases; so I still wonder which of the two you prefer :)
05:33<Timberwolf>I think I'd probably go with (a < b)
05:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNbw
05:34<Timberwolf>It's a weird scanning thing, somehow it's easier to read to me with the '<' symbol than the '>' symbol.
05:36<TrueBrain>so you would pick "(b < a) ? a - b : 0" rather than "(a > b) ? a - b : 0" ?
05:37<TrueBrain>I want to make this a twitter poll :D I am really curious how people's mind work with this :D
05:37<TrueBrain>as I think it is how you process information in your head, what you can process better
05:38<Timberwolf>If they're real variable names. But with 'a' and 'b', I'm not so sure. Like that seems to break what I think of as the natural "scan" order.
05:38<Timberwolf>This is starting to feel like there's something unwritten here, like the way English never talks about "green big dragons"
05:39<TrueBrain>I just ran into this in a PR, and my brain crashed on it .. but I can fully understand it is my brain being the issue here :)
05:39<TrueBrain>that makes me wonder how other people perceive the world :)
05:39<TrueBrain>(my brain crashed on ba <-> ab, basically)
05:40<Timberwolf>Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what the actual rules are. I think I'm wrong with the direction of the sign, it's the alphabetical order which is strongest.
05:40<TrueBrain>alphabet? Or order of variables? As in: "(a > b) ? 0 : b - a" vs "(b < a) ? 0 : b - a"
05:40<Timberwolf>Like there's some cognitive load difference between "this is the order I normally see these symbols in" vs. "this is not"
05:41<TrueBrain>guess a and b are too abstract for this
05:41<TrueBrain>brains are funny
05:41<Timberwolf>So here's the weird thing. I feel like I care a lot about "(a > b)" vs. "(b < a)" but the fact it's "b - a" doesn't trigger the same pathways.
05:43<TrueBrain>tnx for your insight in this :D I really want to make it a twitter poll now ..
05:43<TrueBrain>maybe for next livestream :P
05:43<Timberwolf>I wish I knew more about this stuff. If I guessed I'd say it's something about data you've seen thousands of times, vs. data that's new.
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>all i see is "this should be a hidden overflow check"
05:43<Timberwolf>Like the only reason I prefer (a < b) is because I have a huge number of experiences of seing "a" before "b" in that context.
05:44<TrueBrain>I think if you worked on a product that always does "a > b ? 0 : b - a", in what-ever form, you will always do that. If you are used to the inverse, you always expect that .. I guess you get primed by what-ever you are used to from what-ever you worked on
05:44<TrueBrain>yeah, exactly :)
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>i seem to have a small bias towards "<" over ">", not sure why
05:44<Timberwolf>There's probably a lot of programming convention that ultimately comes down to, "eh, Grace Hopper flipped a coin the first time it was done"
05:45<TrueBrain>or someone had a strong opinion about it and I just said: sure
05:45<TrueBrain>:D
05:46<TrueBrain>just look at PEP-8 :D
05:48<TrueBrain>funny, the wandering town houses problem :)
05:49<TrueBrain>the code is indeed a bit too simplistic there :D
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but it's been there since TTO
05:50<TrueBrain>solving it isn't simple, as in: there is nothing obvious to solve it with
05:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
05:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNAa
05:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
05:59<TrueBrain>altering the town growth to replace houses a lot is fun to watch :D
06:03<TrueBrain>https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1663690/103761547-2038df00-5017-11eb-920d-881889c53ead.png
06:03<TrueBrain>hihihi :)
06:03<TrueBrain>the chances of getting him out this far in a normal game is like 0.0001%, but okay :)
06:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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06:19<TrueBrain>why can I only produce 1x2 buildings, and not 2x1 buildings? :D
06:20<TrueBrain>guess the default stuff doesn't have a 2x1 building? :D
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06:36<TrueBrain>and here we go again!!! :D
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06:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
06:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes closed issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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06:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8507: Fix #7604: prevent houses to wander too far from town center when rebuilding https://git.io/JLNpN
06:42<TrueBrain>that was a fun little bug :)
06:44<LordAro>:)
06:45<TrueBrain>most time spend on testing my fix ... was not easy :P
06:45<TrueBrain>can't wait for people to make their own town growth algorithms, honestly .. it is fun to toy with :D
06:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JLNhE
06:51<LordAro>TrueBrain: you should absolutely write a blog post about it
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06:58<Timberwolf>I'd like to build a town growth algorithm that can interact with roadtypes.
06:58<Timberwolf>So the town builds its own major and minor roads.
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07:05<Borg>satan! I mean hi :D
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07:05<Borg>okey. after playing for whole day.. w/ new YAPF settings.... its absulutly briliant now..
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07:06<Borg>multiple AUX path (close to ECMP) are selected..
07:06<Borg>path w/ penalty. are selected rary... its damn great!
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07:47<TrueBrain>LordAro: I guess ... tt-forums or news post, any preference?
07:57<Timberwolf>News post might be nice IMO.
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08:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLAJK
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08:15<Samu>hi
08:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLAJj
08:21<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'd go with news post
08:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3
08:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3
08:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLAUg
08:25<TrueBrain>do we want to keep these 2 PRs based on town population (The max length birdge and tunnel), or do we want to look for other metrics?
08:25<TrueBrain>I think this is good enough for a first version, honestly
08:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLAUK
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08:34<Samu>im turning my flooding PR into a draft again
08:34<Samu>got some new testings done
08:35<Samu>tuns out I don't need overcomplicated checks
08:39<Samu>seems that I only need to check 2 slope configurations
08:39<Samu>slope with one corner and flat
08:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JLAUh
08:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLATR
08:49<TrueBrain>that PR is not in a good state, sorry to say :(
08:54<Samu>mine?
08:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLATx
09:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8492: Fix: Don't allow towns to terraform certain floodable tiles https://git.io/JLdA0
09:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLAkr
09:14<Samu>much simpler checks
09:15<Samu>fits in a single line https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8492/files#diff-2435a884057fcf692871728ce3d0726330c4120b00d7b07514eaa0ec310b0fd5R1384
09:30<Samu>hmm I have a problem terraforming close to void tiles
09:30<Samu>not sure if it's worth solving it
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09:50<TrueBrain>https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/fe3c80e7dc9313b7ac7941540e5dee22#gistcomment-3584350 <- oof, I wrote stuff ... pretty sure I could have done with less words :P
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09:58<LordAro>that is a lot of words
09:59<TrueBrain>yup; a design can be made in a fraction of that :P
09:59*andythenorth reads
09:59<TrueBrain>well, the summary does just that :D
10:00<andythenorth>Off-topic: I don't think it's backwards to assess what's possible alongside what is wanted :P
10:00<andythenorth>just different sides of same coin
10:00<TrueBrain>you need both, but to talk a bit more in design-terms: if you consider the two-diamond approach to go from idea to implementation, I am skipping the first to jump to the second, to scope the first further
10:00<TrueBrain>that is not ideal
10:01<andythenorth>+1
10:01<andythenorth>but if life was ideal :P
10:01<TrueBrain>but I also don't see us working through the first diamond before jumping to the second, so .. yeah ..
10:01<TrueBrain>pay me a salary, and we can talk :P :D
10:01*andythenorth has a blank expression about timing and deadlines
10:01<TrueBrain>NewGRFs make the game slow; GSes will make it even more slow, is the tldr there :)
10:02<andythenorth>when I was thinking about this around newgrf, I assumed it would have to be defended by design against 'slow'
10:02<andythenorth>using 'async' for whatever we think async means
10:02<andythenorth>i.e. just don't try and do expensive things
10:02<andythenorth>and rely on results that may not get updated frequently
10:02<TrueBrain>we have seen with AIs, if you give people a full-fledge language, they will do stupid shit and make the game slow :P
10:02<andythenorth>yeah
10:03<TrueBrain>but I guess we just add performance warnings .. "This GS is slowing down your game"
10:03<andythenorth>this is economy and map stuff, not pathfinding though, how fast does it need to be?
10:03<TrueBrain>well, my example comes to mind: you want to grow the town? Let me scan EVERY TILE OF THIS MAP FOR YOU
10:03<TrueBrain>that will grind the game to an halt :)
10:03<andythenorth>newgrf example: using lots of restrictive placement checks on industries makes map gen very slow
10:03<andythenorth>so .... don't do it
10:04<andythenorth>this one is a known real case ^
10:04<TrueBrain>in a good design, you define deadline and measure if things meet them .. I guess in this case it will be: we measure it, and yell if they don't meet the deadline, but go fucking ahead otherwise :P
10:04<TrueBrain>yeah, but the NewGRF example is a bit faulty, in the sense that: the NewGRF callback finishes quick
10:05<TrueBrain>just the game cannot place an industry anywhere, and keeps trying
10:05<andythenorth>yes
10:05<TrueBrain>here it is that the callback just takes FOR EVER to finish
10:05<andythenorth>and that's the author's mistake
10:05<TrueBrain>so the game is no longer in control
10:05<TrueBrain>so the UI stutters
10:05<TrueBrain>like .. a lot :P
10:05<TrueBrain>(we cannot even draw during the callback)
10:05<andythenorth>yeah that's bad
10:05<TrueBrain>so the effects are much more ... noticeable :)
10:05<TrueBrain>a lot less .. subtle :D
10:06<TrueBrain>it is the whole reason AIs work btw, because we enforce deadlines :)
10:06<TrueBrain>AI-authors don't like it :P I have been told many many many many times :D
10:06<andythenorth>I guess you just have to code defensively for it :P
10:07*andythenorth hasn't experienced it in OpenTTD, newgrf is never slow in the newgrf part
10:07<TrueBrain>but the more I think about it, the more I realise it will just be fine to pop up the performance overview if a GS starts to become silly slow
10:07<andythenorth>but I used to code a lot of Flash games, defensive coding was a thing
10:07<TrueBrain>and just point to: THIS is why your game is lagging
10:07<TrueBrain>"defensive" coding misses context; security-wise defensive? :P
10:08<TrueBrain>what do you mean with it :)
10:08<andythenorth>us Flash game coders were all pretty self-taught and not very good
10:08<andythenorth>so it was really basic stuff like "don't write unclosed loops (dumbass)"
10:08<andythenorth>but also there were things in Flash that were slow and we used to hunt them down
10:08<andythenorth>like animating shapes with a lot of vectors
10:09<andythenorth>or fonts...we used to convert the fonts to bitmap pixels for performance
10:09<TrueBrain>I cannot predict how this will effect OpenTTD atm .. hence the PoV suggestion, so we can find out :D
10:09<andythenorth>"A script in your browser is running slowly, do you want to terminate it" :P
10:09<TrueBrain>well, exactly
10:09<TrueBrain>just ours would be: "a GS was running slow, we terminated it"
10:10<andythenorth>hmm
10:10<andythenorth>maybe we could do it all like the DOM, attach arbitrary scripts to arbitrary nodes, with extensible attributes everywhere, and no namespacing?
10:10<andythenorth>great idea
10:10<TrueBrain>go sit in the corner
10:11<andythenorth>every time I have to write javascript, I'm newly amazed by how mad it is
10:11<andythenorth>like it's conventional to just keep state in a ... <div> or whatever
10:11<andythenorth>wtf?
10:12<TrueBrain>the only reason it is a bad idea to make a VM per controller, is that a VM has a stack
10:12<TrueBrain>but boy, it would solve the deadline issue :D
10:12<TrueBrain>owh, the stack is just a vector
10:13<TrueBrain>unusual, but .. means it is not that heavy in terms of memory
10:16<TrueBrain>defaults to 1024, but we can reduce that I guess
10:16<TrueBrain>something to fiddle with :P
10:17<TrueBrain>first, 1.11 :)
10:17<TrueBrain>owh, btw, with a system like Controllers like this, I can think up some crazy shit we could do :D
10:18<TrueBrain>don't know if I wrote it down, but an AI is just a Controller for a Player :)
10:18<TrueBrain>but it also means you can do tutorials, or a cinematic viewer ... :D
10:20<andythenorth>yeah it makes sense
10:20<andythenorth>how insane is that things like windows could get controllers in like....10 years time?
10:20<andythenorth>too insane?
10:20<TrueBrain>what do you mean?
10:21<andythenorth>curious about scriptable UI
10:21<andythenorth>I have NFI about implementation or anything
10:21<andythenorth>just see players complaining about stuff sometimes
10:21<TrueBrain>should be rather easy, in this concept
10:21<TrueBrain>just it might be hard to assign benefit
10:22*andythenorth thinks scriptable UIs are a 0.1% feature
10:22<TrueBrain>basically, anything that is an instance in C++, you can assign to a controller (as it really is already a controller)
10:22<andythenorth>emacs users :P
10:24<TrueBrain>I wonder how threadable this concept is ..
10:24<TrueBrain>all GSes can read at once, basically
10:24<TrueBrain>and their writing is done via DoCommands
10:24<TrueBrain>future-additions :P
10:25<Samu>mapsize could have 1 extra void tile
10:27<Samu>im trying to get the height of a tile + tilediff (1, 1), where tile is the bottom corner of the map
10:30<Samu>TileHeightOutsideMap is not too smart
10:35<andythenorth>TrueBrain got any candidate ideas for how they communicate?
10:36<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it depends a bit on what we want from it, what information to store
10:36<TrueBrain>is it key-value information
10:36<TrueBrain>or is it more
10:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain dismissed a review for pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLD72
10:37<andythenorth>can I pass a script? :P
10:37*andythenorth straight to evil
10:37<TrueBrain>you can, but not execute it, so no real help ;)
10:38<andythenorth>towns are a really good practical test case, but I don't know if they're good for finding the use cases
10:38<andythenorth>most of the town stuff, my answers would be 'minimal communication' and 'not often'
10:38<andythenorth>once a town is placed, it needs to run fairly self-contained
10:38<TrueBrain>personally I like registers as it is simple and contained .. I can imagine key-value is more useful, as it is more explicit and can handle more situations .. but I guess it will be JSON :P
10:38<TrueBrain>growth is one of the things there
10:38<TrueBrain>when can a town grow
10:38<TrueBrain>that would require communication, I guess
10:39<andythenorth>when the 'allowed to grow' flag is 1 :P
10:39<andythenorth>which doesn't need updated very often
10:39<TrueBrain>and I suspect people will want to make towns grow in "rings", like suburbs, etc
10:39<andythenorth>yeah there is some interest in that
10:39<TrueBrain>so there are all these pieces that would require communication
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10:39<TrueBrain>currently, as I found out today, towns are rather limited ... 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 2x2 houses
10:39<TrueBrain>that is it
10:40<andythenorth>I have other (non-town) use cases, but I have to do some grown up stuff first :P
10:40<andythenorth>BIAB
10:40<TrueBrain>and some other properties ofc
10:40<TrueBrain>well, you showed me your use-cases :)
10:40<TrueBrain>but we have to start somewhere, and we cannot do everything at once ;)
10:51<+glx>ok I found why nml regression runs are failing
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11:02<Borg>hahaha..
11:02*Borg laugts at compiler
11:02<Borg>I just disassembled OpenTTD... and.. in one simple place I found that short circuit was optimized badly..
11:05<Borg>luicky.. its called once. per game..
11:05<LordAro>Borg: submit a PR!
11:05<Borg>so maybe compiler is so uber smart? ;)
11:05<Borg>LordAro: hmm? :)
11:06<LordAro>if the code its generated from is also written incorrectly
11:06<Borg>no no.. code is perfectly okey (C++) part
11:06<Borg>I think compiler is just trolling..
11:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] saveinthesky commented on issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log https://git.io/JLNID
11:06<Borg>if (_network_dedicated || (!_networking && !Company::IsValidID(_local_company))) return;
11:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log https://git.io/JLNID
11:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log https://git.io/JLNID
11:20<andythenorth>TrueBrain this is a dumb question, but if town A wants a result from town B, and town B delegates the result to town A...what happens? :)
11:28<Samu>i guess I better not deal with void tiles
11:50<TrueBrain>andythenorth: that never happens; callbacks are only done downstream
11:50<TrueBrain>communication can go side-wards, but not in an active mechanism
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11:52<andythenorth>equally dumb, town A wants result from town B, and town B calculates result based on asking '5 neighbouring towns' for their results, is that a thing?
11:52*andythenorth trying to understand the flow
11:52<TrueBrain>again, town A cannot "want result from" town B
11:53<TrueBrain>they might have a shared storage, but town A can never request information from another town like that
11:53<andythenorth>hurrah
11:53<TrueBrain>it makes no sense to have that
11:54<andythenorth>reduces the need for devlolopers to learn the hard way about "things I should not do"
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12:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLAna
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12:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLAcR
12:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLAc0
12:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLAcg
12:49<andythenorth>is it naptime?
12:51<TrueBrain>haha Eddi|zuHause , that does explain a thing or two :)
12:52<TrueBrain>I like the feature; would love it if you can dust it off and make it mergeable :)
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: michi_cc said he wanted to look at the necessary saveload changes, so far i've only done the bare minimum to update it to current master
12:57<TrueBrain>ah :) So yeah, make it a draft ;)
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13:01<supermop_Home>andythenorth i want to nap
13:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #121: [it_IT] Translator access request https://git.io/JLNqM
13:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #122: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLNKO
13:01<andythenorth>supermop_Home not allowed in your employment contract
13:02<supermop_Home>andythenorth ha we don't have contracts
13:02<supermop_Home>at will employment
13:02<andythenorth>oh yes that
13:04<TrueBrain>andythenorth: what is a good GRF to test trams with?
13:04<andythenorth>eGRVTS, or Road Hog
13:04<TrueBrain>Road Hog I have installed, tnx
13:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible https://git.io/JLHah
13:06<Samu>very minor fix, instead of return p << 8; it's return p;
13:14<supermop_Home>mopRVs?
13:15<supermop_Home>oddly i started that set just to try to get a couple basic trolley buses into ogfx+ RVs
13:15<supermop_Home>as it seemed like after NRT if ogfx+ had a tram it should have a trolley bus
13:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8068: Streetcar track removal fails when bank balance negative https://git.io/JvxRZ
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13:17<TrueBrain>removing bridges with tramrails on it, should be less expensive .. hmm .. I guess ..
13:19<TrueBrain>lol @ comment: /* Clearing tram earns a little money, but also incurs the standard clear road cost,
13:19<TrueBrain> * so no profit can be made. */
13:19<TrueBrain>seems that is a lie :D
13:21<TrueBrain>hmm .. you cannot remove tram or road from a bridge without destroying the whole bridge? Awh :(
13:22<frosch123>you can
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>that should be possible
13:22<frosch123>you have to add the other one first
13:22<TrueBrain>I added both
13:22<TrueBrain>and then how?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>select tram, press "R", click on bridgehead
13:22<frosch123>remove tool
13:22<TrueBrain>the normal buldozer thingy is disabled for bridges
13:22<TrueBrain>owh, you can do it with normal rail
13:23<TrueBrain>not intuitive, but yeah, it works :)
13:23<TrueBrain>you cannot place it that way, but you can remove it that way :D
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think you can also place it
13:23<TrueBrain>owh, tram on road bridge, yes
13:23<TrueBrain>and the other way around too .. lol .. it gave me an error when I tried
13:23<TrueBrain>owh well, I must be silly
13:23<TrueBrain>it works indeed
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>you might have tried to build the wrong trackbit
13:24<frosch123>you get an error if there is nothing left
13:24<Samu>where in the code do I check the flood coming from void tiles?
13:24<frosch123>you cannot destroy the bridge with that
13:24<TrueBrain>I keep clicking the wrong trackbit .. so yeah
13:24<TrueBrain>it is really not very clear which part of the road you are clicking on :)
13:24<TrueBrain>some user feedback would be nice .. but not solving all problems today :D
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, similar highlighting as with autorail is needed
13:24<TrueBrain>indeed, it was the trackbit, tnx Eddi|zuHause :)
13:25<TrueBrain>you can remove it while clicking on the wrong trackbit
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>also, custombridgeheads :p
13:25<TrueBrain>hihi
13:25<TrueBrain>anyway ... lets find why the cost is calculated wrong .. no clue where to look for that :D
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think cost calculation is magic
13:27<Samu>oh, TileLoop_Clear has a DoFloodTile, I didn't expect that
13:27<Samu>I was looking hard at TileLoop_Water
13:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLAWA
13:27<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:29<TrueBrain>its funny how destroying a bridge cost is calculated :D
13:30<TrueBrain>that indeed is not in line with what happens if you remove tram yourself first :D
13:36<TrueBrain>replacing a bridge is also a bit wonkey, price-wise :)
13:59<TrueBrain>okay, I think destroying a bridge is too cheap :D It doesn't consider what is on the bridge
13:59<TrueBrain>how much will people hate me if I increase the cost of destroying bridges? :D
13:59<TrueBrain>in return, destroying a rail bridge now makes money :P
13:59<frosch123>if you write a wiki page summarizing the cost, we do not have to discuss it 10 times more :)
14:00<TrueBrain>bridges are a bit weird .. basically, destroying them is a fixed fee per tile
14:00<TrueBrain>but road/trams kinda made that weird :D
14:02<TrueBrain>hmm, that fixed, when building, it uses the bridge NewGRF spec price thingy to multiply the value with
14:02<TrueBrain>but not when destroying
14:02<TrueBrain>guess I need to read NewGRF specs now :D
14:03<TrueBrain>"cost factor"
14:03<TrueBrain>well, that was not helping me :D
14:03<TrueBrain>frosch123: what do you think .. cost of building is "bridge_len * _price[PR_BUILD_BRIDGE] * GetBridgeSpec(bridge_type)->price >> 8"
14:03<TrueBrain>cost of removing is "bridge_len * _price[PR_CLEAR_BRIDGE]"
14:03<TrueBrain>should that "price >> 8" be in the latter too?
14:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLA8l
14:08<frosch123>TrueBrain: that would be very cheap :p
14:08<frosch123>bridgespec thingie is a 16bit thing, so i think that >> 8 belongs to it
14:08<frosch123>making it a 8-bit fixed point number
14:09<frosch123>yeah, bridge_land.h has cost factors 80 to 510
14:09<frosch123>so, around 256
14:09<TrueBrain>what I mean to ask, and I am not sure you are answering that: should "bridge_len * _price[PR_CLEAR_BRIDGE]" not be "bridge_len * _price[PR_CLEAR_BRIDGE] * GetBridgeSpec(bridge_type)->price >> 8" ?
14:10<frosch123>nah, bridges are expensive to build. destroying them is a fixed price
14:10<frosch123>dynamite does not care what it destroys
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14:10<TrueBrain>that argument became a bit weird with road/tram bridges
14:10<TrueBrain>as it is now better to first remove the tram
14:11<TrueBrain>than destroy the bridge
14:11<TrueBrain>which is a bit odd
14:11<TrueBrain>patching that is easy .. it now basically first strips the bridge, than destroys it :P
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14:12<frosch123>maybe you could check whether stripping gives money
14:12<TrueBrain>is that worth the effort?
14:12<frosch123>so, you know whether everything is dynamited, or what is stolen in advance
14:13<frosch123>cost things are never worth their effort :p
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14:13<TrueBrain>rail bridges have the same issue btw :)
14:13<TrueBrain>but you cannot remove rail from bridges before destroying it :P
14:13<TrueBrain>which again is a bit weird :)
14:13<frosch123>let's look up what convert rail says
14:13<frosch123>iirc there was some essay comment in the code
14:15<frosch123>RailConvertCost() has the essay, but not helpful here
14:16<TrueBrain>converting only makes you pay the difference too, indeed, so it pays you back and it charges you again
14:19<TrueBrain>funny, adding trams to an existing road bridge charges you extra for "destroying" the bridge first :D
14:22<supermop_Home>would my thicker monorail station roofs be eligible to amend ogfx?
14:23<andythenorth>Costs Rabbit Hole!
14:23<andythenorth>where Cost Rabbits live!
14:24<frosch123>supermop_Home: become ogfx maintainer, and you can decide yourself :p
14:26<andythenorth>'maintainers' :)
14:26<andythenorth>a funny idea, on reflection
14:26<frosch123>someone who decides on white and orange mouse cursors
14:27<andythenorth>so far you only mention downsides :(
14:27<andythenorth>this won't convince supermop_Home
14:27<frosch123>you get a badge!
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can put it in your resume when applying for a job
14:27<andythenorth>now we're sucking diesel!
14:28<andythenorth>how do I apply?
14:28<andythenorth>oh are they storming Congress?
14:28*andythenorth was watching live, then they closed the session
14:29<frosch123>you first need to stop complaining about ogfx, and renounce using the original baseset
14:29<andythenorth>or I could just do the first
14:29<andythenorth>and not the second
14:29<andythenorth>I think we agreed the first
14:31<frosch123>looks like andy is already baseset maintainer
14:32<andythenorth>somewhat :P
14:34<andythenorth>I just fixed the warnings
14:34<andythenorth>and added missing sprites
14:34<andythenorth>I haven't made any sprite commits for years
14:34<supermop_Home>commit my maglev station roof
14:35<supermop_Home>Eddi|zuHause my last 2 years work is largely under nda so sprites are my closest thing to built work recently
14:48<Heiki>online content seems broken
14:49<TrueBrain>works for me; so you have to be a bit more specific if you can :D
14:49<Heiki>start OpenTTD, press ”Check Online Content”, no contents appears
14:50<Heiki>−s
14:50<TrueBrain>I see no disruptions on our end .. do you have a firewall active that might be blocking it?
14:51<Heiki>no, everything else (including multiplayer) works fine, and earlier today online content worked normally
14:51<TrueBrain>anyone else having issues?
14:53<frosch123>no issues here
14:53*andythenorth looking for the default recolour sprite definitions
14:53<Heiki>must be some strange local problem then
14:53<TrueBrain>:(
14:53<TrueBrain>sorry
14:54<frosch123>andythenorth: still not bookmarked?
14:54<andythenorth>oh maybe they're in a comment in my code
14:54*andythenorth looks
14:55<andythenorth>frosch123 this? https://github.com/frosch123/TTDViewer/blob/master/src/recolor.xml#L186
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>content seems fine here
14:55<frosch123>https://github.com/frosch123/TTDViewer/blob/master/src/recolor.xml https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/base/base-0775-recolor.pnml
14:56<TrueBrain>Heiki: if multiplayer listing does work, it is especially odd
14:56<TrueBrain>as they follow the same network path
14:56<TrueBrain>(well, one is UDP, the other TCP, but that is the only difference, really)
14:56<andythenorth>frosch123 thanks
14:56<andythenorth>passed it on
14:57*andythenorth human discord bridge
14:57<Heiki>restarting the modem did the trick; no idea what was broken
14:57<frosch123>someone should write a js script version of ttdviewer
14:57<frosch123>so we can watch/zoom ttd sprites from the internet
14:57<TrueBrain>Heiki: well, at least good to hear :)
14:58<TrueBrain>frosch123: NOT IT
14:58<frosch123>hmm, usually tb refers to everything as "he". does it refer to itself with "it"?
14:58<TrueBrain>beep boop
14:59<TrueBrain>right, bridges are a real rabbit hole ... let me just fix the issue, instead of the whole complete mess :D
14:59<andythenorth>frosch123 can we get them out of the WASM build live? :P
14:59*andythenorth not even trolling
14:59<andythenorth>then I can make Train Whack for arbitrary grfs
15:00<frosch123>no idea whether there is a java->wasm compiler
15:00<frosch123>do you remember the java age?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if you do any industry stuff, they're usually like 20 years behind :p
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>"what? templates? we just started with object oriented programming"
15:03<andythenorth>I missed the java age
15:03<frosch123>no, not 20, only 10
15:03<andythenorth>it happened around me, not to me
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>i learned some java in the first year of university. that was almost 20 years ago
15:05<andythenorth>I was very fortunate, I spent the first 5 years of my job using Flash and similar
15:05<andythenorth>and only started writing serious web apps just as java + oracle DB became a clear poor choice
15:05<frosch123>ttdviewer is the only java thing i ever wrote outside of university exercises. i did not know anything else that could do cross-platform gui stuff at that time.
15:07<andythenorth>extract sprites, dump them into some kind of browser plugin?
15:07*andythenorth assumes that security says NOPE to that idea
15:07*andythenorth hopes
15:09<supermop_Home>well great
15:09<frosch123>somewhen i tried to make ottd create screenshot using sprite references, so you could have an external viewer, and change the sprite offsets in it etc
15:09<supermop_Home>check news when zoom call ends and there is an active armed standoff in the House
15:10<supermop_Home>what a great country
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>i heard you guys are on the brink of revolution?
15:11<andythenorth>supermop_Home seems exciting at least?
15:15<supermop_Home>Eddi|zuHause i think the term is Autogolpe
15:16<Timberwolf>I've never had to live the horror of the servlet era. Done a bit of Spring Boot but that's more one of those things where it is to Java what JGRPP is to regular OpenTTD.
15:16<Timberwolf>Did not escape ASP.net AJAX, though.
15:16<Timberwolf>That was... interesting.
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15:18<frosch123>supermop_Home: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup <- i had to look it up, but it's already listed
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home: i must admit, i've never heard that word before
15:22<frosch123>apparently it's spanish
15:22<supermop_Home>yep
15:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLARD
15:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8509: Fix #8068: always allow removal of tram track if that generates money https://git.io/JLARS
15:24<TrueBrain>that was ... interesting code
15:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: I assume you noticed my updated gist for TownAIs? :D
15:24<supermop_Home>i guess all the riot police and teargas they used on BLM protestors sitting in the street this past summer were not available to be used on people waving confederate flags and storming the capitol with guns....
15:25<frosch123>TrueBrain: yeah, read it during dinner
15:25<TrueBrain>you have strange dinners :P
15:25<TrueBrain>would love to hear your input on it, of course :)
15:25*andythenorth wondering what animation ticker ships might have https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1240156#p1240156
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15:26<frosch123>TrueBrain: i have no opinion yet. but i remember that there are some gs and ai, which spend 5 game years after start to compute some voronoi decomposition of the map or other things, before they really start
15:26<TrueBrain>frosch123: yup .. there is an open ticket to give them more time at startup :D
15:26<frosch123>so, huge startup times. so even if the same gs can have individual vms for each town, they may have a shared startup thingie?
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15:28<TrueBrain>that is honestly not a bad idea
15:28<TrueBrain>this global state needs more thinking, but allowing to give a JSON blob to a controller on startup is not a bad idea
15:28<TrueBrain>where the GS gets some time to prepare tha tJSON blob on start of game
15:29<TrueBrain>I can imagine someone makes a "core" GS, which does make these kind of graphs at startup
15:30<TrueBrain>and shares it with other GSes
15:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLAEO
15:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLAEC
15:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLARD
15:35<TrueBrain>"Republican congressman says China is "sitting back and laughing" at the US right now" <- only China? :D
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>the russians surely got their money's worth when they bought that election 4 years ago
15:36<milek7>I'm not sure if this is funny really
15:37<TrueBrain>"je oogst wat je zaait", they say in Dutch
15:38<frosch123>milek7: don't worry about things you cannot influence. rather worry about poland
15:38<andythenorth>after 4 years of Brexit lolz, everything like this is funny
15:38<frosch123>4 years only? i thought it had been longer
15:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yeah, american trump and british copycat-trump happened almost simultaneously
15:40<TrueBrain>okay .. fixed 3 bugs today .. I feel good about that :D \o/
15:41<TrueBrain>right ... on to "what to do with this PR" .. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7497 .. what do we think?
15:42<TrueBrain>personally I fully understand why people want this, but it feels like the list will only grow over the next few months
15:42<TrueBrain>I wonder if there isn't a better solution for this problem
15:42<TrueBrain>Factorio has blueprints to solve it :D
15:43<frosch123>i still don't know why there are special selections for "trees" and "company property"
15:43<frosch123>but not for "water", "rivers", "canals"
15:43<frosch123>"stations", ...
15:43<TrueBrain>you proof my point, yes :)
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>"tracks only"
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>"roads only"
15:44<andythenorth>our situation is quite different to USA really, but similar in the amount of lol
15:44<TrueBrain>so do we deny the PR in full, do we start building this endless long list .. or do we have a better suggestion?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>on/off toggles and locks like the visibility/transparency settings?
15:45<frosch123>i also have no idea why it's only in the landscaping toolbar, and not in the other construction toolbar
15:45<supermop_Home>i am not finding today funny, nor have i found much of the past 4 (+) years funny
15:45<frosch123>so many things, i do not know whether they are intentional or just wtf
15:45<andythenorth>I don't understand PRs like that
15:45<TrueBrain>frosch123: assume it is not intentional :)
15:45<andythenorth>I'm not -1, I'm just lost
15:45<TrueBrain>supermop_Home: sorry to hear :(
15:45<TrueBrain>I understand the idea behind such PR, but it feels that it is not thought through sufficiently .. but I also don't have a solution myself :)
15:46<andythenorth>it's not a viable solution as it stands
15:46<andythenorth>maybe I talk to quick (again)
15:46<frosch123>yep, the pr does not solve any problem in a convincing way
15:46<andythenorth>1st, what is the problem?
15:46<frosch123>it just raises more questions
15:47<andythenorth>why do we need to demolish only trees?
15:47<frosch123>i already asked that :p
15:48<frosch123>most likely it is so you can replant them
15:48<andythenorth>I thought same
15:48<andythenorth>this is caused by "we don't have sandbox mode"?
15:48<frosch123>so, why not a "replant trees" button? :p
15:48<andythenorth>which a possible solution for might be "Town GS"
15:48<frosch123>i think i make a replant-trees-button for the next livestream
15:48<andythenorth>yes
15:49<andythenorth>and a special 'make town rating 100%' button
15:49<andythenorth>but only accessible with the right key combo
15:49<frosch123>no, rather a wrap-around
15:49<andythenorth>ha
15:49<frosch123>annoy them so much, that they love you again
15:49<andythenorth>just take over the town hall
15:49<andythenorth>if you don't like the result
15:49<frosch123>probably by bulldozing your statue or something
15:49<andythenorth>good mechanic
15:51<andythenorth>what rationale is there for denying a feature like this?
15:52<andythenorth>generally the UI has done ok with 'moar', excepting a few horrors
15:54<supermop_Home>apparently national guard activated now
15:54<supermop_Home>trump will finally get his tanks on the national mall he wanted
15:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7497: Feature: Selective demolition tool. https://git.io/JLAui
15:54<TrueBrain>I wrote words
15:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #7497: Feature: Selective demolition tool. https://git.io/fjq82
15:55<TrueBrain>"Ivanka Trump calls rioters "patriots," then deletes tweet" <- sorry, but this just makes me laugh out loud
15:55<TrueBrain>if not that emotion, what other is there
15:55<supermop_Home>i don't expect any of them to face any real consequences
15:56<andythenorth>supermop_Home not sure, senior republicans seem to have found a spine
15:56<supermop_Home>but i would hope that at least the countries that have their shit more together would place some kind of sanctions on them
15:56<andythenorth>when you have weapons drawn on the senate floor, it's not a game any more eh
15:57<andythenorth>https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/6780612/2147483647/resize/1920x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F47%2Fb8%2F13e0e1dc433dbb2c6ab592478d8a%2Fgettyimages-1294932511.JPG
15:57<supermop_Home>andythenorth if these guys had more melanin there wouldn't be a standoff -
15:57<andythenorth>no comment, not my country :P
15:57<supermop_Home>but here the capitol police are just letting them sort of have their run
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home: just remember the situation a few months ago, where everyone was like "we need the national guard!"
16:01*andythenorth fails to be surprised that one group think the rules are different for them
16:01*andythenorth has met people before
16:01<andythenorth>more than once
16:01<supermop_Home>andythenorth just don't let this family get away with retiring to their golf course in Scotland
16:01<andythenorth>supermop_Home Scotland...independent anyway by next year?
16:03<frosch123>are there new odds on london becoming an independent city state?
16:03<andythenorth>probably on a betting site somewhere
16:03<andythenorth>anyway, shall I animate ship cranes when loading? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1240156#p1240156
16:04<andythenorth>I could probably do mod(load_amount / 8) or something
16:04*andythenorth invents maths
16:04<frosch123>if only ships were loaded from back to front :)
16:04<frosch123>their position could show the loading percentage, and fill the ship up behind them
16:04<andythenorth>maybe we need the JGR through-loading patch, for ships
16:05<frosch123>ship-conveyor belt?
16:05<supermop_Home>Eddi|zuHause i am not saying i want police brutality now... im saying "the response seems to be different when one group holds a sit-in on the street vs when another group literally commits terrorism"
16:05<andythenorth>https://vimeo.com/227399983
16:06<andythenorth>presumably they have to reposition that ship occasionally to distribute load
16:06<supermop_Home>andythenorth its not just that one group thinks the rules don't apply to them, its that in practice, the rules actually are applied differently... different lines in the sand for different people
16:06<andythenorth>supermop_Home don't want to state the obvious, but isn't that how power structures work?
16:06<frosch123>i think i saw some crap-tier documentation about how difficult it is to load a big ship, so that it does not break apart during loading due to imbalanced loading
16:07<andythenorth>I read a whole thing about loading ships yesterday
16:07<andythenorth>ships are really quite interesting
16:07*andythenorth audience of one for that
16:07<andythenorth>there are basically two approaches to running ships (before container ships)
16:08<andythenorth>a big empty box, 1-4 giant holds
16:08<andythenorth>filled with one bulk cargo, or one cargo of the same break-bulk items
16:08<supermop_Home>also videos of uniformed capitol police taking selfies with 'protestors' inside the capitol
16:08<andythenorth>or a ship with lots of divided holds, some with specialised equipment
16:09<andythenorth>the game simulates the first kind :D
16:10<+michi_cc>The real question is more like, whom is the national guard loyal to?
16:10<andythenorth>valid Q
16:11<TrueBrain>we are about to find out :D
16:11<andythenorth>media is now labelling them rioters, not protesters
16:11<andythenorth>seems reasonable
16:11<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: I really hope we don't find out. A second US civil war will not end good for anybody, including us.
16:12<TrueBrain>little we can do about any of that from over here, sadly
16:12<TrueBrain>so one way or the other, we will find out, don't we?
16:12<TrueBrain>I just hope it is a result that doesn't end in WWIII
16:13<andythenorth>more likely a secession
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>from this point on, really ANYTHING can happen
16:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAz5
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16:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8168: It takes two actions to move your company HQ by one tile. https://git.io/JfViG
16:16<TrueBrain>these bugs are funny :)
16:17<TrueBrain>will close 8 out of the 30 open 1.11 tickets, these 4 PRs :D w00p :)
16:17<frosch123>you make it cheaper, do we care?
16:18<andythenorth>'no'
16:18<TrueBrain>I do not :)
16:18<andythenorth>we can outsource the caring
16:18<andythenorth>having read ~1000 OpenTTD issues, I have seen that there are other people who will care for us
16:18<andythenorth>we don't need to
16:18<frosch123>you can also infinitely put it on the same location
16:19<frosch123>so much bs cases :)
16:19<andythenorth>there is a big correlation between 'people who care about costs' and 'people who will file detailed tickets'
16:19<TrueBrain>frosch123: yup
16:19<TrueBrain>I was like .. do I care enough if people do that ... do I want to solve that case ....
16:19<TrueBrain>and I decided against it :)
16:19<andythenorth>do any kittens die?
16:20<TrueBrain>so I too clicked a lot of times my HQ on the same location
16:20<TrueBrain>just because I fucking can now :D
16:20<TrueBrain>too often I misplaced my HQ by 1, and had to move it away and back again, to place it AGAIN on the wrong location .. so yeah, I am pretty happy with this PR :P
16:20<TrueBrain>if you want, btw, I will fix those edge-cases for you frosch123 :)
16:20<TrueBrain>I just didn't care enough to do so :P More code .. :D
16:21<frosch123>nah, i am way more scared about other things
16:21<TrueBrain>like? :)
16:21<TrueBrain>the thing we promised not to talk about? :D
16:21<frosch123>overbuilding multi-tile objects was a huge problem, and noone believed at the time that it was fixed for good
16:22<TrueBrain>was it?
16:22<frosch123>lots of special code with ClearedObjectArea
16:22<TrueBrain>well, HQ is an inverted example of it, I guess :)
16:23<TrueBrain>I almost dismissed my own solution; it was only when I noticed that the clearing of the HQ is done in the same function I was like: this is fine :)
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure i understood any word of this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1240143#p1240143
16:25<andythenorth>me neither, is there a translate version?
16:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgI
16:25<TrueBrain>owh, the CI failed ... oops
16:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause also we agreed not to talk about NRT
16:25<TrueBrain>the regression was testing if the HQ could be build on top of iteself
16:25<TrueBrain>did not see thatone coming
16:25<andythenorth>I nearly regret-quit (again) when I read that
16:26<+glx>oh you again forgot to check regression before push ;)
16:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgs
16:26<TrueBrain>SSSSTTTTT
16:26<TrueBrain>damn you, you did this!
16:27<+glx>he's fast
16:27<andythenorth>and accurate
16:27<andythenorth>like a bot
16:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgC
16:27<frosch123>did that guy run the regression themself? or are they replicating what gh checks already said?
16:28<+glx>he reads the checks
16:28<+glx>usually it's about commit checker
16:28<TrueBrain>checks really improved btw, if you click Details, you see the regression failure
16:28<TrueBrain>no longer it is hiding
16:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain dismissed a review for pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgI
16:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAz5
16:30<TrueBrain>I did consider making DorpsGek announce when the CI was failing
16:30<TrueBrain>but ... I voted against it :P
16:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNwo
16:31<+glx>and I'll get a check failure notice for this push :)
16:31<frosch123>oh, someone ran an inofficial highscore at my old company, about who breaks the ci how often
16:32<TrueBrain>I am very known to have CI failures, also at old jobs :D
16:32<TrueBrain>I really do not care .. it is the CIs job to tell me when I forgot something :)
16:32<frosch123>unfortunately the ci usually broke due to os upgrades and environment changes, rather than commits
16:32<TrueBrain>like the regression .. 9 out of 10 it doesn't need changing .. so why waste 9 times running it, if the 10th is told by the CI :)
16:33<frosch123>TrueBrain: anyway, i am really curious how you came up with tile 239, 76
16:33<TrueBrain>haha :D I looked up a random industry on the map
16:33<TrueBrain>Industry 0
16:33<TrueBrain>an Oil Refinery
16:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgF
16:34<TrueBrain>initially I just tried numbers
16:34<TrueBrain>but that didn't go anywhere :P
16:34<frosch123>i also like your typo "stop making me fail worse" :)
16:34<TrueBrain>I am one of those lazy programmers ... least amount of effort .. :D
16:35<TrueBrain>hahaha, oops
16:35<TrueBrain>fixed :P
16:35<TrueBrain>sorry :D
16:36<frosch123>awh, it was so self-fulfilling
16:36<TrueBrain>but yeah, CIs rule, and people should depend on them more :)
16:36<frosch123>not every ci works as well as those you set up
16:36<andythenorth>I love making the CI fail
16:37<andythenorth>means manual QA people didn't have to find my mistakes
16:37<TrueBrain>frosch123: it is a bit the reverse: I set them up well, as I depend on them :)
16:37<+glx>oh no regression failed for my nml PR (expected, not my fault)
16:37<TrueBrain>many CIs I had to work with, were not so dependable .. so I made them more dependable :)
16:37<supermop_Home>two bombs diffused at capitol
16:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAz5
16:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8168: It takes two actions to move your company HQ by one tile. https://git.io/JfViG
16:38<TrueBrain>well, at least Trump can now claim he was ahead for a while
16:39<TrueBrain>frosch123: the best CIs are those that need to flash hardware with your build and run tests ..... making those dependable is ............. difficult :D
16:40<TrueBrain>what I also love doing, is move a bunch of test to weekly tests, those tests that should never fail, but are worth checking once in a while
16:40<TrueBrain>that means that when you come in on Monday you have this nice email telling you you have work to do for the next 3 hours
16:40<TrueBrain>just a good start of the week :)
16:41<TrueBrain>(shit like dependency checks, outdated, CVEs, etc, or full-production tests, involving a full redeployment on AWS, stuff like that)
16:42<frosch123>there is a weekly testsuite that starts saturday and runs till monday. most follow a policy to not commit on fridays, since you get lynched if you break the build or something that affects the whole testrun
16:43<TrueBrain>no commit-friday .. that is a new one for me :)
16:43<TrueBrain>no deploy-friday is pretty common :)
16:44<andythenorth>our auto-deploy tool bans Fridays
16:45<TrueBrain>owh, right, https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8032 .. with the comments in between which I cannot process :D
16:45<frosch123>there are a bunch of people on gh, which you should rather ignore
16:46<+glx>yeah there's some flood in the middle
16:46<TrueBrain>my mental ignore works perfectly, most of the time :)
16:46<TrueBrain>I still like that PR, but I guess we need to split off a few cases that depend on real-time
16:46*andythenorth wonders about a block :P
16:46<TrueBrain>so yet-another-timer :)
16:46<andythenorth>"content has null value, takes space"
16:47<andythenorth>"If the primary purpose of the function is to to...[theoretical discussion with no relevance to our codebase]"
16:47<TrueBrain>I might give it a crack soon, to see if we can make that part of the code a bit more clear
16:47<TrueBrain>owh, and andythenorth , in case you didn't notice, I was mentally ignoring your blabla over mentally ignoring people :D :P
16:48<TrueBrain><3
16:48<frosch123>glx: why is 7904 a bug?
16:48<andythenorth>pls send emoji more
16:48<frosch123>is it just that people obsess about the name of the method?
16:48<TrueBrain>7904 is non-sense indeed; but what glx describes does read like a real bug :)
16:49<frosch123>i think the point of the method is to update widgets, which take some time to update
16:49<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8032#issuecomment-606102685 <- that "bug" :)
16:49<frosch123>so, imo using real-time is the right thing
16:49<+glx>the main issue is it can be called way too often
16:50<frosch123>oh, i was thinking about fast-forward... but the bug is about slow-forward :)
16:50<+glx>if there's lag you get even more lag
16:50<TrueBrain>except for 2 function, it appears nobody expect real-time, but all kinda assume game-time (the OnHundredthTick implementations)
16:51<TrueBrain>so OnHunderdthTick (what a shitty word to write) and OnEveryThirdSecond I think is what we need :D
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: try not to speak it :p
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16:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: FU! :P Now I tried ....
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16:53<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6780 it only recently got changed to real-time btw
16:54<frosch123>funny, i would have expected _scroller_click_timeout to use a guitimer
16:54<frosch123>does it scroll faster in fast-forward?
16:55<TrueBrain>would you be surprised if it was? :D
16:57<frosch123>it feels like scrolling slightly slower in fast-forward :p
16:57<frosch123>also, make a guess: i used an empty 64x64 map to have really fast fast-forward. what do you think which window i used to get a long scrollbar? :p
16:58<TrueBrain>NewGRFs!
16:58<frosch123>close
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>conttent?
16:58<TrueBrain>content, lol, yes :D
16:58<frosch123>content in-game?
16:58<TrueBrain>content service button, yes :)
16:59<frosch123>oh, indeed you can open content in-game....
16:59<TrueBrain>that is most likely the longest list we have :P
16:59<TrueBrain>it is laggy as fuck :D
16:59<frosch123>but no, i used the settings gui with expand-all
16:59<TrueBrain>haha, that works too :)
16:59<+glx>works too, and faster to fill
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17:01<frosch123>glx: DecreaseWindowCounters is called via a guitimer, so your PR does not change anything
17:01<frosch123>that's also why the scrollbar works :)
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17:03<+glx>anyway in most cases OnHundredthTick is intended to update display after some game state changes, and game state changes are tick based
17:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLAaR
17:04<+glx>but in fast forward we get the issue again, as more ticks happen
17:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7904: OnHundredthTick() not called once per 100 ticks https://git.io/Jejmx
17:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7904: OnHundredthTick() not called once per 100 ticks https://git.io/Jejmx
17:04<TrueBrain>frosch123: haha, nice catch :D
17:06<TrueBrain>sorry glx, your PR can no longer fix that issue :D (sorry, I had to close it, I did not really read the content before :P)
17:06<frosch123>hmm, while my observation is correct, my conclusion is not
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17:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLAaX
17:08<+glx>I think it's not a complete fix, probably needs both GUITimer and tick counter, and refresh only for the case that is the longer delay
17:09<frosch123>now i like the fix. in fast-forward the the guitimer of decreasewindowticks stops it from being called more often
17:09<frosch123>and in slow-forward the _hundreth_tick_timout counter stops it from being called too often
17:09<TrueBrain>win-win? :D
17:10<TrueBrain>only means we have to fix the two exceptions, that really depend on real-time :P
17:10<frosch123>i think there should be a comment about that in the code
17:11<frosch123>call onhundrethtick at constant time when the game is fast, call it less often when it is slower than realtime
17:11<TrueBrain>I guess a simple solution is to allow a Window callback which gets delta_ms
17:12<TrueBrain>means a Window like chat can figure out itself when to do what after how much time
17:12<+glx>I should rebase first :)
17:13<+glx>then we can amend it
17:13<frosch123>sounds complicated. we have event-based invalidation for important stuff, tick-based invalidation for cheap stuff, and onhundrethtick for expensive stuff without proper trigger
17:13<TrueBrain>same as for the error dialog .. it now only works on N * 100 ticks timeouts now
17:13<TrueBrain>frosch123: yeah, except that we have 2 cases that don't care about any of those 3 :)
17:13<+glx>D:\developpement\GitHub\glx22\OpenTTD [fix_7904 ↓1 ↑466]> <-- small rebase :)
17:14<TrueBrain>time an error window stays open, and time a chat message is visible
17:14<TrueBrain>someone just hooked that into OnHunderthTick, but that is kinda hackish :D
17:15<TrueBrain>which is apparent in the error one, as there is another counter counting down for N "seconds" :D
17:17<TrueBrain>owh, OnRealtimeTick already exists
17:17<TrueBrain>so they are just hooked in the wrong one
17:18<TrueBrain>ah, so that is how news messages always appear in normal speed :D
17:20<+glx>so we can just replace 'wrong' OnHundredth with OnRealtime
17:20<TrueBrain>I think we can; but I am looking at frosch123 here
17:20<TrueBrain>lol, errmsg_duration's tooltip says it is in seconds
17:20<TrueBrain>but I think it is 3 times as long?
17:21<frosch123>why looking at me? i want to go to sleep
17:21<TrueBrain>haha, you just said it was a complicated idea :)
17:21<TrueBrain>so I was more double-checking if I understand this wrong :)
17:22<frosch123>double-checking to understand something wrong... you have weird goals :)
17:22<TrueBrain>that I don't mind being wrong? I guess :)
17:23<frosch123>OnRealtimeTick sounds right for errors and chat :)
17:23<TrueBrain>k :)
17:23<frosch123>forgot about that one, i think it's also "new"
17:23<TrueBrain>I remember news going super fast in fast-forward :P
17:23<TrueBrain>I hate it no longer does :D
17:24<TrueBrain>okay, so errmsg_duration really doesn't do what the tooltip says :D Default is 15 seconds, not 5 :P
17:24<TrueBrain>old games are fun .. so many weird errors :D
17:25<+glx>checking all OnHundredth now, and replacing where appropriate, I'll add a separate commit
17:25<TrueBrain>its a gui-setting .. so can we change it to be more correct? Hmm ..
17:25<TrueBrain>guess that means all existing games change from 15 to 5 seconds timeout?
17:26<TrueBrain>we don't version the configuration file :P :P
17:27<TrueBrain>renaming the setting is the obvious solution, I guess
17:27<TrueBrain>owh well, I will leave glx to do his thing :D
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17:32<TrueBrain>hmm, do we need to have the error message duration to be configurable? Lol .. maybe just remove that completely, honestly ...
17:45<andythenorth>:)
17:45<TrueBrain>when she's smiling (8(
17:46<TrueBrain>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXYRkp2HZto to make clear what went on in my head
17:50<andythenorth>I wants YT for the inside of my head
17:50<andythenorth>pls explain me
17:50<andythenorth>thx bai
17:50<andythenorth>GG google
17:50<TrueBrain>the youtube movie you requested is not available
17:50<TrueBrain>:P
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17:52*andythenorth should go to bed
17:52<andythenorth>or I be sleeping on a sofa
17:52<andythenorth>same again tomorrow then
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18:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8509: Fix #8068: always allow removal of tram track if that generates money https://git.io/JLAry
18:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8507: Fix #7604: prevent houses to wander too far from town center when rebuilding https://git.io/JLArS
18:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLArx
18:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvruE
18:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLAoq
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19:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLAKt
19:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLAna
19:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLA6t
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 07 00:00:44 2021