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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-01-10

---Logopened Sun Jan 10 00:00:48 2021
01:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
01:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
02:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
02:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
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03:43<TrueBrain>wow, what a PR. Good motivations, description, and code looks good to me .. lol, what is happening :D
03:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
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04:12<andythenorth>livery_types then with labels and name strings
04:12<andythenorth>such lol
04:13<andythenorth>liivery_type subtypes also
04:15<andythenorth>common livery_type label scheme
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04:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on pull request #8550: Feature: "Remove all industries" button in scenario editor
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure that's the main reason we SHOULDN'T have such a property
04:57<andythenorth>it wouldn't be just a property at that point
04:57<andythenorth>it would be a newgrf feature
04:58<andythenorth>with action 0 and so forth
04:58*andythenorth is just following one route to logical conclusion
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not awake enogh to follow that conclusion
04:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic updated pull request #8550: Feature: "Remove all industries" button in scenario editor
05:00<andythenorth>if liveries are a concept that exists beyond a specific vehicle
05:00<andythenorth>then they need an entity to define them
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05:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on pull request #8550: Feature: "Remove all industries" button in scenario editor
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05:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
06:08<Samu>weird diff
06:12<Samu>glx isn't around t.t
06:12<Samu>the generated log file is adding extra lines
06:13<Samu>on stuff that wasn't changed, because of ";"
06:16<LordAro>Samu: aha, that's a newline character (ish) in cmake
06:16<LordAro>convert your stuff to use ':' like everything else
06:16<LordAro>or that stuff
06:16<Samu>you mean, a new PR changing all ; into :
06:17<LordAro>well, in that output, yes
06:17<LordAro>in both the regression AIs and the expected output
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06:26<frosch123>i don't get 8552... doesn't that completely break cargodist?
06:26<frosch123>the whole point of feeder services is to have intermediate stations that do not accept a cargo
06:28<TrueBrain>I think this is one of these things that confuses new players mostly, that implicit all of a sudden can get cargo, from how I understand it
06:28<TrueBrain>but I never played with cargodist, so what do I know :D :)
06:28<frosch123>well, that is already solved now, by changing the default settings
06:28<TrueBrain>non-stop is default now? Yeah, I guess that solves the issue too ;)
06:29<frosch123>i think 8552 tries to turn non-non-stop to behave like non-stop, which is entirely pointless?
06:30<TrueBrain>depends on the reason why implicits were created I guess
06:30<+michi_cc>Apparently cargodist will create a link if e.g. a coal train auto-stops at a pax-only station and will forcefully use it to transfer cargo between trains (that what I understood at least, never use no-non-stop orders myself).
06:30<TrueBrain>is it done for cargodist?
06:30<frosch123>implicit orders are for cargodist, yes
06:30<TrueBrain>(I was honestly confused by the implicit orders, what they do and why they show up :D But I am a newbie player in those regards :P)
06:31<TrueBrain>so yeah, that invalidates the PR :)
06:31<andythenorth>everyone is confused by implicit orders
06:31<andythenorth>but no better way was found :)
06:31<frosch123>TrueBrain: without cargodist, the player decides where vehicles load, unload or transfer cargos
06:31<frosch123>with cargodist, cargodist decides where to load, unload or transfer
06:31<TrueBrain>I guess that is why I was confused what they did, the implicit orders :D
06:31<frosch123>for that cargodist has to know where vehicles stop, so it needs implicit orders
06:31<frosch123>to track intermediate stations
06:40<Samu>is this a good commit name? Fix: No semicolon in regression output
06:40<Samu>i'm unsure how to describe
06:41<Samu>CMake uses ; to create newline
06:41<LordAro>Samu: "Fix: Remove semicolons from regression output"
06:41<LordAro>technically speaking, the cmake script should be escaping the ';'
06:41<LordAro>but that's a separate problem
06:41<Samu>i think we should wait for glx
06:42<Samu>see what he has to say
06:42<Samu>but ill make the PR anyway, just in case it's needed
06:43<Samu>just dont merge asap before glx has a say
06:43<LordAro>lol, sure
06:43<TrueBrain>LordAro < glx, good to know :)
06:44<Samu>no, it's because it's due to a change yesterday night
06:44<Samu>glx created
06:44<TrueBrain>I am totally fine with LordAro < glx, it is not a complain, just a mere observation :D
06:45<TrueBrain>sorry, that was just too easy :P
06:45<LordAro>oh, i quite agree
06:45<LordAro>anyway, what needs reviewing/rebasing?
06:45<TrueBrain>scroll patch of yours!
06:46<LordAro>ah yes
06:46<TrueBrain> <- basically, that :)
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
06:48<frosch123>do we have any cargodist expert left?
06:48<TrueBrain>I promote michi_cc
06:48<frosch123>i misread 8552 as changing the station acceptance rule. but it actually changes the input to the cargoflow planner
06:48<+michi_cc>I'm not a cargodIst expert at all.
06:49<frosch123>so, my initial confusion was wrong, but i still do not know enough about that code :)
06:49<TrueBrain>I never understood cargodist, sadly enough
06:49<TrueBrain>same with cargodest
06:50<+michi_cc>I can tell you about cargodest; how I envision it to work when I finish it in 100 years :P
06:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8553: Fix: Remove semicolons from regression output
06:50<TrueBrain>michi_cc: haha :D
06:50*andythenorth votes don't touch cargodist, back away
06:50<TrueBrain>is that before or after the economy revamp Celestar is working on?
06:50<+michi_cc>Hey, YACD is a patch, it's not vaporware :)
06:51<frosch123>there was a svn branch for economy :p
06:51<TrueBrain>there are PDFs for economy
06:51<TrueBrain>like .. real papers
06:51<LordAro>this->vscroll->GetCount() - this->vscroll->GetCapacity()
06:51<LordAro>have i forgotten how scrollbars work, or is this always negative?
06:52<TrueBrain>what does GetCount do?
06:52<TrueBrain>total items in the list?
06:52<TrueBrain>as in that case, no
06:52<LordAro>ah right
06:52<TrueBrain>well, it might
06:52<frosch123>TrueBrain: yeah, sadly noone of them notices the fundamental problem: if you do not have enough money in ottd, you have to wait for money to pile up. so "trying to make the game harder" usually ends up with "making the game more boring by adding waiting times"
06:52<TrueBrain>but these functions really confused me LordAro
06:52*andythenorth never understood 'game needs to be harder'
06:53*andythenorth is quite stupid though
06:53<TrueBrain>frosch123: for me it always read that they confused "fun to play" with "has to be realistic"
06:53<frosch123>andythenorth: do you remember that multiplayer ncg game with pikka
06:53<frosch123>pikka was so interested to see people play with his set
06:53<andythenorth>I remember a few
06:54<frosch123>but everyone was just frustrated that there was barely enough money for one player to build something
06:54<frosch123>while the rest was idling for two hours
06:54<andythenorth>oh yes
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06:54<andythenorth>those MP GS games massively influenced my design choices
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06:54<andythenorth>FIRS got redesigned to scale cargo output easily
06:54<TrueBrain>LordAro: if GetCount does return the amount of items in the list, maybe a GetItemCount would be a better name, tbh :P
06:55<frosch123>iirc pikka added a setting to his set after that: divide all costs by 8 or so
06:55<andythenorth>and I tried to keep the needle of vehicle cost + power pointing at 'you can make progress without waiting'
06:55<+michi_cc>Good multi-player design goals are probably very orthogonal to good single-player design goals.
06:55<andythenorth>game needs to be richer, not harder
06:55<andythenorth>just my £0.02
06:55<andythenorth>I just played a 160 years of FIRS Steeltown because there's enough depth to it
06:56<andythenorth>being 'harder' wouldn't have kept me playing
06:56*andythenorth needs to start a new game
06:57<andythenorth>the next 2 weeks will contain a lot of questions about JGRPP
06:59<reldred>There's ways to make a game more difficult, beyond just making everything more expensive. For instance I like the depth that can be added by well designed train sets; deciding what branch of a tech tree to go down, I like super tall maps with heighmaps that introduce varieties of regions with different topology, the chalenges you then faced by trying to traverse that (One of the reasons I really want to see cliffs, more object
06:59<reldred>God what's JGR up to now andythenorth? I hadn't really seen anything have I missed some news?
06:59<andythenorth>I don't know
07:00<andythenorth>I have tried JGRPP before, and I find it quite overwhelming
07:00<andythenorth>but there are too many reasons to switch
07:00<reldred>Yeah JGRPP is my regular, I'm particularly fond of custom bridgeheads and things like the tweaked alpine tree growth.
07:00<andythenorth>playing it requires pretty much constant questions
07:01<andythenorth>but fortunately the discord is almost entirely JGRPP
07:01<andythenorth>I keep asking newgrf design questions in discord and the answers are constantly 'solved in JGRPP'
07:02<andythenorth>apparently all the livery subtypes crap is fixed
07:02<reldred>Yeah that doesn't sound constructive.
07:02<andythenorth>I think it's fine no?
07:02<reldred>No I mean just saying 'jgr fixed it' and not really helping any further.
07:02<Timberwolf>The problem with "harder" is most of the obvious options add linear difficulty to a game with an exponential growth curve.
07:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
07:03<reldred>Yeah see I'm not interested in 'harder', I'm interested in challenges and solving them
07:03<reldred>Rather than just a race against the time/money clock.
07:03<Timberwolf>You still eventually hit the elbow where everything you do brings in >1 times what it cost. Making that 1.0001 instead of 1.1 just means more time spent in that "waiting for trains to arrive" stage of the game.
07:05<andythenorth>it's unlikely to go well, asking "how do I do X in vanilla" to people who are like "wtf are you talking about, that is solved?" :)
07:05*andythenorth tries it
07:05<Timberwolf>In original TTD and Locomotion, the real difficulty is getting overwhelmed by busywork on a large network.
07:05<reldred>I mean I geuss it depends how you play it? I mean you can setup a low cost low risk pax route between two cities and put it on fast forward and hit 2050 with millions in the bank
07:05<reldred>that's a pretty boring way to play
07:06<reldred>I mean I consider anything other than alpinist/maxheight255/very rough terrain to be basically cheating. But that's me,
07:06<reldred>It's a sandbox game.
07:06<Timberwolf>For me, the difficulty is not the money but the inevitable "I need 100 trains to arrive here every minute and... er... HOW"
07:06<andythenorth>the scarce commodity is 'throughput'
07:07<andythenorth>not 'money'
07:07<frosch123>i liked playing settlers 1 in the 90s. the main difficulty was to make the weird transport mechanics deal with the vast amount of cargo. but i also knew people, who just left the game running for 5 hours unattended, until they had enough stuff produced
07:07<Timberwolf>Which gets more challenging (and "fun") on rugose terrain with many obstacles.
07:07<andythenorth>frosch123 apparently
07:08<Timberwolf>frosch123: I have a friend who plays Factorio like that sometimes.
07:08<Timberwolf>"I need 18 million green circuits, I'll just leave it running overnight"
07:11<reldred>I mean you're never going to stop someone playing that way if they want. Even if you have some sort of random disasters system to keep people engaged people will demand the ability to turn it off (I mean I probably would, I make life hard enough for myself in other areas).
07:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #123: [de_DE] Translator access request
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07:20<Samu>is this CMake error that kind of error that shouldn't happen?
07:22<LordAro>that is a bit weird
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>you're also never going to stop people building point-to-point routes in openttd, instead of complex networks
07:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8006: Codechange: Increase scrollbar length limit to UINT_MAX and make their length properly unsigned
07:28<LordAro>pretty sure that's incorrect in places
07:28<reldred>it's a sandbox game, people are going to play it however they want and however hard they want.
07:29<reldred>some people play almost entirely for aesthetics and efficiency or profits are entirely on the backseat
07:31<TrueBrain>LordAro: am I correct to assume you did not process all feedback in #8006 yet?
07:31<LordAro>ah, no
07:31<LordAro>that was just a rebase
07:31<TrueBrain>k :)
07:46<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'm thinking that a simple "underflow safe unsigned subtract" function might be a good idea
07:46<LordAro>given the amount of times i've written it (probably incorrectly in places)
07:47<TrueBrain>that would be even better, yes :)
07:47<TrueBrain>generalizing hard-to-read-statements is always a good thing :D
07:47<TrueBrain>frosch123: <- with this latest change, do you see any additional issues with this PR?
07:49<LordAro>TrueBrain: now the hard bit is finding all of them
07:50<TrueBrain>haha, yes
07:50<TrueBrain>": 0" is a give-away :P
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think technically "0-1" in unsigned is still considered an "overflow". and "underflow" is used in floating point contexts where very small numbers are rounded to 0
07:54<TrueBrain>you remember when we talked about this channel being often overly pedantic with no real added value? :P :D
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>that's an occupational hazard :p
07:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination
07:54<TrueBrain>tnx frosch123 !
07:56<frosch123> <- no need to be lonely, there is also stuff for you :)
07:56<andythenorth>TrueBrain we talked about that?! Please, give me exact times and dates
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07:56<TrueBrain>frosch123: :D
07:56<TrueBrain>andythenorth: FU
07:58<andythenorth>I had a bet on how you would answer
07:58<andythenorth>I was off by a single character
07:59<TrueBrain>happy I did not disapoint
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08:06*andythenorth takes all the questions to discord
08:06<frosch123>yay, i sent my first mail from the new mail account :p
08:06<andythenorth>so many questions
08:06<TrueBrain>frosch123: gratz!
08:06<TrueBrain>how does that make you feel?
08:07<frosch123>(it's so weird that credentialy of receiving and sending are independent)
08:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination
08:07<TrueBrain>I had that too the other day :P
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>a propos, when i pushed the first time in a while, github sent me a "deprecation warning" email, should i worry?
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>about logging in with password
08:08<reldred>i think they're converting over to key based auth?
08:09<reldred>which tbh kinda concerns me considering there's whole classes of malware now that focus entirely on compromising keys after AWS did similar
08:10<TrueBrain>a key has a selected amount of permissions; so the malware no longer gets full access if it succeeds ;)
08:11<TrueBrain>security is never about completely removing any risk; it is merely about reducing it to an acceptable and/or manageable level :)
08:11<reldred>dunno, I memorize long passwords and would prefer to keep doing that.
08:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8553: Fix: Remove semicolons from regression output
08:20<andythenorth>fuck me
08:20<andythenorth>I am a big fan of having patch packs as experiments
08:20<TrueBrain>we talked about, and we kinda have to decline your offer
08:20<andythenorth>it really is the way forward
08:21<andythenorth>but this template stuff, is absolutely non-working
08:21<andythenorth>it destroys existing trains
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08:26<andythenorth>it has 'use depot'
08:26<andythenorth>oops wrong
08:27<LordAro>reldred: etc
08:31<andythenorth>this would be the worst livestream ever
08:31<andythenorth>andythenorth tries to template-replace trains
08:31<andythenorth>currently I am at 'wtf does it delete other trains for?'
08:31<andythenorth>how is that useful?
08:31<andythenorth>my face :P
08:34<Timberwolf>This reminds me of the best excuse I ever heard for broken workflows, about 15 years ago when I was integrating some code which had been generated by an enthusiastic (but slightly lax on testing) developer in the Frankfurt office of place I worked at the time.
08:34<Timberwolf>Sent an e-mail "I clicked on A then B, and got this crash".
08:34<Timberwolf>Reply: "Germans would never click on things in that order."
08:37<reldred>andythenorth: from my use of it you make templates, assign the templates to groups, and it auto replaces the trains in the group with the template. I didn’t really have too many problems with it.
08:37<andythenorth>it absolutely just deletes trains
08:37<andythenorth>I could video it doing it :)
08:37<andythenorth>you have 4 trains in depot, set the templater going, now you have 3
08:37<reldred>Huh, I dunno. I mean I use your sets almost exclusively.
08:47<Samu>the regression savegame map doesn't have rivers, there's no way to test positive for IsRiverTile
08:47<Samu>what do I do?
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08:56<LordAro>Samu: checking that it tests negative in various places will do half the work
08:57<LordAro>difficult to add rivers to such an old map really, we'd need to create a new map
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08:59<Samu>i iterated all tiles, just for the sake of it, returned false for every tile
08:59<Samu>now im reducing to just a few tiles
09:00<+glx>yeah, but a valid test should return true in some cases
09:00<+glx>as in really checking the function works
09:17<Samu>do you mind if i change the TileArea rectangle where the water tests are done in the map?
09:17<Samu>i found a better spot
09:18<Samu>it tests over a ship depot, a dock, a canal tile, then ground and sea
09:18<Samu>the current rectangle is just ground and sea
09:19<+glx>if there is more different stuff it's better I think
09:19<+glx>and you can test all functions on the same area
09:20<+glx>but you need to carefully check the result is correct
09:21<Samu>oh, good idea
09:30<Samu>testing this area [img][/img]
09:30<Samu>let me get the current area
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>am i blind? i can't find a .h file that declares SndPlayTileFx
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>ah, right. i'm blind
09:36<Samu>current area: [img][/img]
09:37<+glx>indeed the "new" area seems a better test case
09:37<Samu>too bad the buoy is deleted by the time it tests
09:38<Samu>there's always that care IsWaterTile on the buoy returning false
09:39<+glx>you can update the buoy stuff
09:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing
09:41<+glx>like depot and dock are removed then rebuilt
09:41<+glx>you can rebuild the buoy too
09:43<+glx>and the lock
09:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing
09:46<andythenorth>is it naptime?
09:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8553: Fix: Remove semicolons from regression output
09:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: is that before or after lunch?
09:49<+glx>ahah rebuilding buoy and dock changes some timings and affect vehicle age output
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>so... crossing dingdingding. currently happens in two ways: a) a crossing with no PBS signals nearby dings when it is activated, b) a crossing with PBS signals dings when the train approaches
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>should it always be case b)?
09:51<+glx>I vote b)
09:51<+glx>but maybe not easy
09:52<+glx>but dingding means closing for me
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, currently, a PBS reservation closes the crossing, but doesn't ding
09:53<+glx>for me if it's closed it should ding
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09:54<+glx>ding from start of closing until fully open
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds... annoying
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>also, i don't think the current sound effect can loop
09:55<+glx>but realistic ;)
09:56<openttd_1>I would like to do some data analysis on the ongoing game, I'm looking for some API of the game which could let me access the data of my busses , trains, other stuff which i costing money
09:56<openttd_1>in the end I would like to create a sort of statistical dashboard
09:56<openttd_1>( just for fun )
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>openttd_1: a GameScript that gathers the data and outputs it through either the debug console or adminport
09:58<openttd_1>cool, so it's doable!
10:00<openttd_1>I thought that GameScripts was only for AI
10:01<+glx>no they are similar, but very different
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10:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing
10:29<Samu>was wondering if I could include some aqueduct building into the area
10:30<Samu>guess i rather not
10:30<+glx>will be a "big" bridge
10:30<Samu>yes, then the area becomes too large, too many tiles printing
10:31<+glx>and bridge should not have effect on tile tests I think
10:32<Samu>the IsWaterTile test
10:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
10:35<Samu>those age tests changed
10:37<Samu>i verified the water, coast, canal tests, and yeah... they are "correct"
10:37<Samu>at least, for what AI makers have to deal with
10:38<Samu>ship depot is a Water tile, lock is a water tile
10:38<Samu>but buoy is not
10:38<Samu>coasts aren't water tiles
10:39<Samu>even if they're halfcoasts
10:42<Samu>lock isn't a canal
10:42<Samu>which is another issue
10:42<Samu>we have to deal with
10:43<Samu>it's not straight forward what is what when dealing with water
10:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects
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11:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing
11:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing
11:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8554: Allow NewGRF vehicles to query the track-type NewGRF about the current track-type
11:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
11:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
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11:14<openttd_1>is there a way to send an httprequest with a game script?
11:15<frosch123>the only connection from GS to the outside world is the admin port.
11:15<frosch123>you can write a "proxy" that connects to the admin port and provides the stuff you need
11:15<Xaroth>i was about to type: inb4 somebody suggests a proxy
11:15<Xaroth>but you beat me to it, frosch123
11:16<frosch123>i believe there is even a library to execute GS commands that were sent from the admin port
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11:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8554: Allow NewGRF vehicles to query the track-type NewGRF about the current track-type
11:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #8554: Allow NewGRF vehicles to query the track-type NewGRF about the current track-type
11:22<openttd_1>frosch123 that's interesting, I didn't know about the admin port
11:22<frosch123>i am no longer user to ottd coding style :)
11:24<andythenorth>so I need something like getbits(var[0x63, 8, 0xFF, ELRL]), 2, 1)
11:24<+glx>oh your PR adds an unrelated fix ;)
11:25<frosch123>openttd_1: <- there are plenty of libraries to interface it
11:27<andythenorth>hmm ELRL like that isn't a valid param
11:27<+glx>there should be a label thing
11:28<andythenorth>getbits(var[0x63, 8, 0xFF, railtype(ELRL)], 2, 1) might be better
11:28<andythenorth>with fewer syntax errors also
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11:28<openttd_1>frosch123: thanks a lot, that's exactly what I was looking for
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ELRL is the index, railtype(ELRL) is the label, or something
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also, you don't need getbits, you adjust the "8" and "0xFF"
11:29<+glx>railtype is the index in translation table
11:29<andythenorth>thanks, the problem was the syntax error
11:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause so to pick bit 2?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>var[0x63, 2, 1, ...] i believe
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11:35<+glx>var[<num>, <shift>, <mask>, <param>]
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes. you shift 2 bits, and mask 1 bit
11:36<andythenorth>confirmed bit 2 works as expected with nutracks
11:36<andythenorth>I'll do a more complete test
11:36<andythenorth>not sure how I'll do backwards compatibility with older openttd
11:36<andythenorth>maybe branch switches?
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>does old openttd care about unknown variables?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>also, why?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>old openttd can still use old newgrf version
11:39<andythenorth>just use bananas min. compatible?
11:39<andythenorth>that's what FIRS does
11:40<+glx>openttd returns 0xFFFFFFFF for unknown
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, then they won't be able to update unless they also update openttd.
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11:43<andythenorth>that might coincide nicely
11:43<andythenorth>I am going to use the inflation warning, and put railtypes into Horse that rely on the curve speed fix
11:43<andythenorth>so 1.11 min. then
11:44<andythenorth>more UK royal engine liveries for frosch123, who is now interested in them :P
11:44<andythenorth>now / not /s probably
11:45<andythenorth>'pls send grf with that livery'
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: right, i get that #7000 didn't age well, and mixed too much stuff, and didn't handle NRT on account of not having existed yet. ... but you dropped all the Action7 stuff, and complain that there's no usecase when there was...
11:50<+glx>can be added later I guess
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12:10<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Could I bother you for an OSX test whenever convenient? I noticed some strange things which might or might not be caused by me using only a virtual machine.
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>also RE: "please consider all cases before submitting a PR" ... this isn't ever going to happen. i have a silly idea, i code it, submit it publicly for comments, and then refine it until it is either considered "finished" or i lose interest. but if i don't act on this first impulse, nothing is ever going to happen
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't think draft PRs existed back then
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12:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] saveinthesky commented on issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log
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12:25<andythenorth>michi_cc is there a PR? :)
12:25<+michi_cc>There is no PR, I've just noticed strange things for me. But a VM might mess with timing.
12:26*andythenorth always forgets p1 instead of p0
12:26<+michi_cc>Things to watch for: frame rate (in the framerate window) right now and after applying the patch, both in normal and in fast forward.
12:27<andythenorth>for current master, or will a recent binary do?
12:27<+michi_cc>I get a totally inconsistent behaviour for something that should be absolutely identical.
12:27<+michi_cc>Recent will do
12:29<+michi_cc>With the patch I get a lot more FPS in fast forward, but also a higher variance in FPS in normal speed. Which is very illogical.
12:29<frosch123>andythenorth: using "unknown variables" will pick the first switch option
12:29<frosch123>not sure whether you can control what becomes the first option in nml
12:30<andythenorth>I'll just bump openttd version, assuming this PR makes 1.11
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>you used to be able to check for 1.11-alpha vs release, but i don't know if that survived the github move
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12:32<andythenorth>did we add a chart to FPS?
12:32<andythenorth>or was that the mac profiler I used?
12:32*andythenorth can't remember
12:32<+michi_cc>Click on the respective time.
12:33<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> you used to be able to check for 1.11-alpha vs release, but i don't know if that survived the github move <-- still available, only svn rev stuff is no longer updated
12:36<+michi_cc>andythenorth: I don't need any scientific study, just saying same or different is quite enough for now :P
12:37<+michi_cc>I.e. just new game, empty map.
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12:45*andythenorth BRB - cooking :)
12:56<andythenorth>michi_cc nothing obviously different between the gist and 1.10.2
12:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #8554: Allow NewGRF vehicles to query the track-type NewGRF about the current track-type
12:59<andythenorth>1.10.2 pushes a higher graphics FPS generally, but there are other variables like map etc
12:59<andythenorth>I have a release build of the gist
12:59<+michi_cc>It's probably some virtual machine thing. But I get a fastforward (without full anim) of 200 fps normally and like 1000 fps with the patch.
13:00<+michi_cc>Might be differences in virtualized CPU tick timing though.
13:01<andythenorth>oh this is weird
13:01<andythenorth>with full anim off
13:01*andythenorth restarts the game
13:02<andythenorth>michi_cc with full anim off, it runs so fast it's in permanent autosave :P
13:02<andythenorth>and graphics FPS shows 50
13:02<+michi_cc>Okay, that matches my observations.
13:03<+michi_cc>I have more fps fluctuations in normal speed though.
13:03<andythenorth>ok with autosave off, it's running insanely fast
13:03<andythenorth>but mostly failing to update the UI
13:03<andythenorth>yeah it will do about 1 year / s
13:03<andythenorth>but graphics FPS is 10
13:04<andythenorth>(this is with ffwd)
13:04<+michi_cc>Okay, 10 is a bit low.
13:04<andythenorth>it fails to track mouse etc as well
13:04<andythenorth>it's like UI is desynced
13:05<andythenorth>FPS 0.98 :)
13:05<andythenorth>after a sustained FFWD
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13:08<+michi_cc>Okay. One more test. I but a second diff on, should not conflict with the first.
13:09<+michi_cc>Use it in addition, not instead of.
13:10<andythenorth>'assume -R' ?
13:10<+michi_cc>Hmm, no???
13:11<andythenorth>thought not
13:11<andythenorth>these diffs look the same in raw
13:12<andythenorth>oh I see
13:12<+michi_cc>The first on is completely unchanged.
13:12<andythenorth>I missed the second, raw gives each diff, not the whole gist , my mistake
13:13<TrueBrain>holy crap, reading that new PR makes me realise I really really do not understand NewGRFs :P Well, code-wise it looks good, best I can tell :D
13:15<TrueBrain>some mad respect to anyone who understands this :D
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think nobody completely understands it, which is partly why #7000 went so out of hand. everyone understood a different thing, or the same thing differently...
13:18<andythenorth>michi_cc behaviour with second diff is similar
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13:20<andythenorth>is it just concidence that full anim makes such a difference to this specific behaviour?
13:21<andythenorth>coincidence *
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13:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
13:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8554: Allow NewGRF vehicles to query the track-type NewGRF about the current track-type
13:25<TrueBrain>the | for return values confused me for a bit .. kept reading || :D
13:25<TrueBrain>funny, how a mind fills in things that are not there :)
13:25<Samu>TrueBrain ::SetDParam(0, 1 << cargo_type); visual studio complains with warning C4334: '<<': result of 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits (was 64-bit shift intended?)
13:25*andythenorth wonders what to call the nml vars
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i also don't always manage to separate | vs ||
13:27<andythenorth>maybe "var[0x63, x, y, LABL]" is good enough
13:27<TrueBrain>call it the andy-var? :D
13:27<TrueBrain>I just like calling things silly
13:28<+glx>Samu: it should be a 64bit value, probably needs explicit
13:28<andythenorth>nml authors have it too easy, they're not learning enough hex
13:28<frosch123>TrueBrain: feel free to add "provide a newgrf that proofs that this is usable at all" to the PR template :p
13:28<TrueBrain>haha, that is not a bad idea honestly :P
13:28<frosch123>7000 contained so much stuff, that made so little sense, that if i would have to write a newgrf to use it, i would rather quit trying
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: adding nml vars is easy, just remember the "x" and "y" and give it a name
13:29<TrueBrain>but I am afraid people really than give a .grf, instead of anything I can read :)
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: andy had a test grf, before it grew out of hand
13:30<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Okay, then I will shelve that for now. Fast fast-forward is nice, but a broken GUI is not.
13:30<andythenorth>it's very fast :)
13:31<andythenorth>8554 needs added to
13:31<andythenorth>I can do it later if that helps
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13:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:32<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:32<TrueBrain>you think frosch123 is going to forget that andythenorth ? Thy of little faith :D
13:32<frosch123>andythenorth: this time i use strike-through in the review-TODO list, like i saw in other PR. not sure whether that makes it more readable though
13:32<TrueBrain>we should use "- [ ]" I guess
13:32<TrueBrain>so it can be checked off :D
13:33<Samu>"show potential fixes" tells me to do this: ::SetDParam(0, static_cast<uint64>(1) << cargo_type);
13:33<andythenorth>I misread approved and merged, my silly
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the wording made it sound like that striking should be done by the reviewers instead of the pr authors
13:35<andythenorth>I am glad I don't have shoelaces in my shoes, I'm not sure I could tie them some days
13:35<TrueBrain>I'm not sure others think I tied them, you meant :P
13:36<frosch123>i learnt that there are two methods to tie shows 2 years ago
13:36<frosch123>and i actually switched the method
13:36<TrueBrain>its crazy, isn't it? :D
13:36<frosch123>didn't expect people at my age would be capable to switch the habit of such a basic thing
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i've used 2 main methods to tie shoe laces in my life. in the beginning, i sat there smiling, until someone came around to tie them for me, and later i tied them once and never untied them
13:38<frosch123>my niece was scolded in 1st grade in school because she helped others close the zipper of their jackets, so they would never learn to do it themself
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>my mom always tells this story how she came to pick me up from kindergarten, and said "tie your shoes", and i did that. then the teachers there were suprised "wait? he can do that?" :p
13:42<andythenorth>I think 11 years later (almost to the day)
13:42<andythenorth>is a good time
13:42<andythenorth>to revisit this
13:48<frosch123>you edited it in 2017 :p
13:49<andythenorth>so I did
13:49<frosch123>"ford tiles" sounds like the reverse of hovercraft
13:49<andythenorth>"multi-mode vehicles, e.g. road-rail; hovercraft on land, amphibious trucks etc."
13:49<andythenorth>there are so many 'done' ponies to add though
13:49<frosch123>did you watch some western movies at the time? or do you know roadvehicles which commonly drive through water?
13:50<+glx>we have hovercraft on land ;)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>"ford-tiles" would be a special case of "objects with road state machine"
13:50<andythenorth>I honestly can't remember frosch123 :)
13:50<andythenorth>it was probably an excuse to justify bulldozers or something
13:53<andythenorth>I suspect this video caused it, date is close (turn sound off)
13:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8555: Fix 218f40e: Warning about 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits
13:54*andythenorth awaits SpinTires mac build
13:54<Samu>visual studio added a newline at the end of file
13:54<Samu>can't make it not do it
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13:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: I think that one would just underscore how incompatible OpenTTD's vehicle scales are
13:59<FLHerne>tram-trains might just about work
13:59<FLHerne>Hovercraft or amphibious trucks would look silly
14:00<andythenorth>FLHerne Hovercraft would never happen
14:00<andythenorth>game engine won't support it
14:00<FLHerne>I thought frosch did it?
14:00<FLHerne>For a given value of 'it
14:00<andythenorth>I might be lying, for effect
14:01<FLHerne>And that demonstration proved that it does indeed look really silly :p
14:02<andythenorth>we should be more adventurous
14:02<andythenorth>belts for the next livestream, or go home
14:10<andythenorth>or I could just make a pipe grf with NRT
14:10*andythenorth wonders about 'no junctions' somehow, but how to attach depots then?
14:15<frosch123>"no junctions" is fine for towns, but silly for humans
14:15<frosch123>AIs are somewhere inbetween
14:19<andythenorth>I wonder if RL pipelines have junctions
14:19<andythenorth>I presume so
14:19<andythenorth>just some valves I guess
14:21<frosch123>of course they have junctions
14:22<frosch123>gas pipelines from russia do not daisy-chain through all of europe
14:22<frosch123>there are different types of valves
14:22<frosch123>proper one which can be remote-controlled and which can be opened in percentages to regulate flow
14:23<frosch123>and cheap ones all over the place to isolate area that need maintainance
14:23<frosch123>though you keep the gas pressure on the pipe while working on the outside
14:24<frosch123>it's better to have pressured gas inside, that leaks at some points
14:24<frosch123>than insufficient pressure inside that may make oxygen leak inside
14:25<frosch123>though if needed, yuo can also fill the inside with pressured nitrogen. complicated but with both advantages
14:25<frosch123>does it show i wrote software for that once?
14:29<andythenorth>maybe you just like pipelines :)
14:30*andythenorth contemplates one pipe from Russia per destination, TTO style
14:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log
14:56<andythenorth>I snuck a made one in an at the end
14:56<andythenorth>mad *
14:57<FLHerne>"...and use it to offer an additional cargo"
14:58<andythenorth>that's not the mad one :)
14:58<FLHerne>Can't we just *not* use absurd hacks that made sense when binary-patching a game written in 1990s asm?
14:58<andythenorth>you have no respect for tradition :D
15:00<Timberwolf>Bring back the creating a sign named "cht: x y" interface.
15:01<andythenorth>is my pony list open for contributions
15:01<andythenorth>should I have made a discussion first? :P
15:02<andythenorth>FLHerne you think 16 separate holds might be better? o_O
15:02*andythenorth dreads to imagine the cargo sprite generation for that :P
15:04<Timberwolf>Good news is I made about 2 hours of videos using #8540 today without anything untoward happening sprite-wise.
15:06<andythenorth>hmm I probably don't to rerun cmake when I pull remote?
15:06<andythenorth>in most cases?
15:10<Timberwolf>There is an entirely unprompted "that looks good and industrial doesn't it? Good job Andy on that, that's very well done. Let's just admire the industrialness of that" in one of them after I scroll to a carbon black plant for the first time :)
15:10<+glx><Samu> visual studio added a newline at the end of file <-- visual studio is right, we used to check/enforce newline at end of file, dunno if it's still the case
15:10<Timberwolf>It is a very good sprite!
15:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8555: Fix 218f40e: Warning about 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits
15:14<andythenorth>Timberwolf :)
15:14<andythenorth>I got bored of all FIRS industries being copy-paste-o same textures
15:14<andythenorth>I pushed FIRS 4 to be more diverse
15:15<andythenorth>TrueBrain so JGR official builds when? (or no?) :)
15:16<frosch123>did you figure out the train templates?
15:17<andythenorth>JGR has fixed a few things
15:17<+glx>andythenorth: he already knows we can provide builds if he wants
15:17<andythenorth>the templates are *not* something we could PR
15:17<andythenorth>the templates are quite interesting though
15:18<andythenorth>the functionality of "I don't have to yak-shave to change my trains" is nice
15:18<frosch123>i thought yak-shaving was your favorite hobby
15:18<andythenorth>yak-shaving grfs is my favourite hobby yes
15:18<andythenorth>the implementation gets in the way, and the UI design fails to follow any of the 19 or so conventions we already have
15:18<andythenorth>which is remarkable, but no surprise I guess
15:19<andythenorth>I think templates would be really nice
15:19<andythenorth>I also think that the hard part of any version of newgrf liveries is auto-replace
15:19<andythenorth>and the hard part of templates is auto-replace :P
15:19<andythenorth>if there are templates...does auto-replace stay or go?
15:20<+glx>auto replace is a hard part by itself ;)
15:21<+glx>but it "works"
15:21<andythenorth>it's really remarkable
15:21<andythenorth>auto-replace is a really good part of openttd
15:21<+glx>minus the confusion between renew and replace
15:22<andythenorth>I asked the discord realism grf liveries-are-cargo-subtypes crowd how they manage the horror of subtypes UI
15:22<andythenorth>and they are all just like "JGR templates, not an issue mate, just move on"
15:23<andythenorth>OTOH, FIRS is pretty much going to end up banning every realism train grf
15:23<andythenorth>because they are using cargos for liveries, which breaks one or the other
15:23<andythenorth>CZTR is already banned, which is going to get me grief
15:23<andythenorth>RUKTS is getting banned next, then I need to find the others
15:24<andythenorth>breaks XIS and AuzInd too, so I might help those authors downstream my changes
15:24<TrueBrain>glx: static cast around 1? Isn't that just 1LL or something?
15:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 merged pull request #8554: Allow NewGRF vehicles to query the track-type NewGRF about the current track-type
15:24<andythenorth>it's been a while since a proper newgrf author drama :(
15:25<+glx>maybe just need a new engine property with some kind of list of supported livery to choose from, and a variable to access the choice from action 2
15:25<frosch123>andythenorth: you could just skip slot 31
15:25<Timberwolf>andythenorth: Want to ban Trains? If you do it on the basis of zoom compatibility you have a good chance of me actually being angry about it :)
15:25<frosch123>or we could make ottd support multiple cargo grfs
15:25<andythenorth>Timberwolf you said you don't abuse cargo subtypes though :D
15:25<andythenorth>zoom is pff
15:26<frosch123>but the latter only makes sense if not every industry set maxes every cargo type limit with 3 days
15:26<Timberwolf>Indeed. FIRS compatibility is a deliberate objective.
15:26<+glx>TrueBrain: ha yes maybe a cast is not needed
15:26<andythenorth>2x FIRS Timberwolf fork when?
15:26<andythenorth>can't be hard
15:26<TrueBrain>glx: can't test why msvc is being stupid, but a static cast over a number feel very weird :p could you see what the proper syntax is?
15:26<andythenorth>you don't have to design anything, and all of FIRS looks same
15:27<andythenorth>singularity happens
15:27<TrueBrain>Tnx :D
15:27<Timberwolf>We already have TimberFIRS, it's the one which relentlessly chucks out 6400 units from secondary industries no matter what.
15:27<andythenorth>TimberFIRS 2
15:28<andythenorth>glx yeah, pretty much, or do it on engine IDs and not a property, but provide UI to group them. Either way, auto-replace is the hard part
15:29<andythenorth>like, are liveries [some word I don't know like extrinsic or transcendent]?
15:29<andythenorth>if I have Super Engine in DB colours, can I replace it with Mega Engine and it automatically goes to DB colours?
15:29<+glx>well auto replace can try the same livery first, and if failing it will use the first available
15:29<andythenorth>and then do we need strings for each cargo and crap?
15:29<andythenorth>livery / cargo /s
15:31<frosch123>TrueBrain: 1ull ?
15:31<andythenorth>I really like the 'group vehicles in the buy menu' route, but I think it's a bit unix worse-is-better thinking
15:32<andythenorth>grf authors seem really hostile to it when discussed
15:32<andythenorth>but auto-replace would
15:32<andythenorth>it's one property and some UI crap
15:33<TrueBrain>Unsigned makes more sense yes :D
15:33<andythenorth>and pooling certain stats like reliability and availability
15:33<+glx>I think they are hostile because it means "rewrite" their grfs ;)
15:34<+glx>current livery stuff is just abusing around limitations
15:34<frosch123>andythenorth: do you know whether silicon valley works with 64 cargos?
15:34<andythenorth>frosch123 no but I need to play a test game anyway
15:34<andythenorth>might be time
15:34*andythenorth considers a fork
15:34<frosch123>i think i have the same "1 << cargo" in sv. and i have no idea whether our squirrel does 64bit ints
15:35<frosch123>and i have really surprised there is no other case of it in ottd
15:35<+glx>tried 1LL and 1ULL, both work
15:35<andythenorth>I'll start a SV map and see
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15:36<+glx>let's check gcc quickly
15:36<+glx>(but should work too)
15:36<frosch123>ah, upper-case is a good hint :)
15:36<frosch123>so yes, we have multiple (1LL << foobar) in ottd
15:37<andythenorth>how many openttd checkouts do others have?
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15:37<frosch123>one git, 2 old hg, 5 old svn
15:37<frosch123>the latter with whatever modifications in them
15:37<frosch123>but there were 5 hg and 12 svn once, so cleaned up some of them :p
15:37<+glx>I don't remember how many hg and svn I still have
15:38<+glx>git is so easier, no need to duplicate checkout to work on something else
15:39<andythenorth>I have vanilla and jgr
15:39<frosch123>oh, i forgot the checkouts of the release branches. but meh
15:39<andythenorth>I keep pulling PRs to test and breaking my savegames due to forgetting :P
15:39<andythenorth>but I don't think 2 checkouts will improve my memory
15:40<+glx>haha there's even SQInteger mask = 0x00000001LL << i;
15:42<andythenorth>frosch123 if SV didn't work, what might I see? :P
15:42<+glx>and we also have 39 1ULL occurences
15:43<frosch123>andythenorth: it would fail to name the cargo that you have to produce
15:43<frosch123>just blank
15:43<andythenorth>if ID was above 32?
15:43<frosch123>or maybe it would name the wrong one, shifted by 32
15:43<+michi_cc>SetDParam takes uint64, so ULL I'd think.
15:43<frosch123>so if you have to produce cargo 34, it would tell you cargo 2, or so :p
15:44<+glx>I think it would tell 0
15:44<andythenorth>seems to work afaict
15:44<+michi_cc>typedef __int64 SQInteger
15:44<andythenorth>it's given me Vehicle Parts with ID 45
15:45<frosch123>michi_cc: cool, i was worried we switched to int32 for everyone, to make 32bit and 64bit behave the same
15:45<andythenorth>it's detected an industry I built correctly producing VPTS
15:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 requested changes for pull request #8555: Fix 218f40e: Warning about 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits
15:46*andythenorth considers an nml to m4nfo code generator for stations,
15:47<andythenorth>oh I think timberwolf already suggested that?
15:47<Timberwolf>Heh. No, I wrote my own weird sidetrack for stations.
15:47<+michi_cc>I think 32-bit compilers that don't have a 64-bit type are not thing for some time now :)
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15:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8555: Fix 218f40e: Warning about 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits
15:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8555: Fix 218f40e: Warning about 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits
15:51<andythenorth>glx fancy trying a rough prototype of this to see if it's rubbish? :P
15:51<andythenorth>I could provide a grf
15:53<andythenorth>prototype could just group vehicles where the name string matches
15:54<+glx>I hate touching GUI ;)
15:56*andythenorth wonders where GUI even is
15:56<andythenorth>must be some widgets.cpp or something
15:56<andythenorth>lol there is widget.cpp
15:58<+glx>I think it's in build_vehicle_gui.cpp
15:58<andythenorth>tree thing is not widgetised I think
15:59<andythenorth>the existing subtypes tree drawing is in vehicle_gui.cpp L454 and so
15:59<andythenorth>tree is not essential, just hide / show variants on click
15:59*andythenorth "my first C++ patch" time
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16:00<andythenorth>this always goes...great
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16:01<+glx>DrawEngineList() handles the drawing
16:02<andythenorth>guess it needs fed a list of engines
16:02<andythenorth>hmm, the existing hide/show might give clues
16:02*andythenorth new samu
16:03<+glx>and this draw function is shared between autoreplace and buy
16:04<andythenorth>yup, I saw the 'crashed' palette use :)
16:04<andythenorth>no idea how to associate engines in eng_list
16:05<andythenorth>does that get split up so it contains a list of lists?
16:05<andythenorth>or is grouping a property on each engine, read when drawing?
16:05<andythenorth>list of lists means rebuilding all sorting
16:05<andythenorth>so 'nope'
16:06<+glx>the list is sorted (by criteria selected in GUI)
16:07<andythenorth>maybe something like engine has parent ID / none
16:10<+glx>but adding "group by" may need to create a list of lists
16:12<+glx>that's where a livery property would help a lot ;)
16:12<andythenorth>I am +/-0 on the IDs idea
16:12<+glx>1 engine ID, many liveries, naturally grouped
16:13<andythenorth>it does seem the simplest overall
16:13<andythenorth>overwhelmingly, grf authors want to set liveries
16:13<andythenorth>the abuse of subtypes for stats changes is minimal (I do it)
16:13<+glx>and maybe a new feature to define liveries specs, like name
16:14<andythenorth>livery labels :P
16:14<andythenorth>common livery scheme :P
16:14<+glx>stats can still be modified via CB36 depending of selected livery
16:16<+glx>I think it's the simplest solution for both newgrf authors, and openttd devs
16:16<andythenorth>I was trying to avoid combinatorial crap like "BR Blue 87mph, air brakes"
16:16<andythenorth>but yes
16:18<+glx>in most cases I guess all stats are the same, just the visual changes
16:19<andythenorth>the changing stats idea...rarely works IMHO
16:19<andythenorth>I've done it 2 or 3 times now
16:20<andythenorth>it's nice idea for short buy menu, but bad gameplay
16:20<+glx>probably more effective to just create a new engine for different stats
16:21<andythenorth>I'm removing refittable capacities from ships currently
16:21<andythenorth>no station refit support, no auto-replace support, just kind of fail :)
16:23<TrueBrain>Pretty decent
16:24<+glx>haha but if it's not merged, it stays open for years ;)
16:24<TrueBrain>No no, read the fine print on that page
16:24<TrueBrain>They take that into account t pretty nicely
16:25<+glx>based on 161 most recent
16:25<TrueBrain>161 non-members
16:26<TrueBrain>Which is a lot
16:26<+glx>oh I see, they're still open for us, but considered closed by the analyser
16:26<andythenorth>shall we get a badge? o_O
16:27<TrueBrain>It doesn't feel like we accept 80%, but stats don't lie
16:27<TrueBrain>They do the inverse :p
16:28<+glx>but faster ;)
16:28<TrueBrain>Not sure that means better :p
16:28<andythenorth>so a train would need a list of the liveries it supports?
16:29<andythenorth>like refittable cargos or something?
16:29<+glx>yeah similar to refittable
16:29<andythenorth>static prop, or CB?
16:30<+glx>I guess usual way is both
16:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8555: Fix 218f40e: Warning about 32-bit shift implicitly converted to 64 bits
16:31<+glx>so it's possible to "remove" liveries based on current year
16:31<andythenorth>hmm can I change cargo refits in cb36?
16:31*andythenorth imagines mischief
16:32<+glx>remove/add from the list, but still available to draw current running vehicles
16:32<+glx>just not for new ones
16:32<andythenorth>I think for the full range of madness, authors will want to check by dates and stuff yes
16:35<frosch123>andythenorth: the mistake of cargo subtypes to make the callback define the list
16:36<frosch123>it's easier if you have a static list, and a callback that tells available/not available
16:36<frosch123>that way it's clearly known which items exist, even if they are not available now
16:36<andythenorth>so similar to cargos
16:36<andythenorth>but not
16:37<andythenorth>there will need to be some new feature type 'livery' to provide a label and name string?
16:37<andythenorth>or can it be jammed into action 14? :P
16:37<+glx>new feature is probably better
16:37<frosch123>andythenorth: action14 is for static stuff.
16:38<frosch123>just add a text property? like for object and station classes?
16:38*andythenorth wonders if availability of a livery is better handled per livery
16:38<andythenorth>not per vehicle
16:38<+glx>per livery makes sense
16:38<andythenorth>I can see authors arguing it both ways
16:39<andythenorth>e.g. SNCF Fret is only after 199x
16:39<andythenorth>but blablah engine has special realism based rules due to it's exact history
16:41<andythenorth>I have 'liveries' in Iron Horse already, and the definitions started per engine, and pretty quickly moved to global
16:41<andythenorth>(company colour rules stupidity)
16:43<andythenorth>looking at Objects: text ID, Introduction date, End of life date seem stealable
16:44<andythenorth>the 'this engine is special' case is solved by defining a different livery, same string, different dates, only used for that engine
16:44<andythenorth>or something
16:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: how does it do the "non member" thing? most members are not public
16:47<TrueBrain>I guess by the member label on PRs, but I didn't write it, so I don't know
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16:50<frosch123>when i log out, glx is listed as "contributor"
16:51<frosch123>so it does not spoil member secrets
16:52<frosch123>ah, the filter-by-author dropdown seems to spoil it :p
16:54<Samu>isn't my solution in #8009 similar somewhat to #7979 ?
16:55<Samu>:( sad face because it was closed
16:57<andythenorth>livery UI? Similar to subtypes, but less crap?
16:57<frosch123>those issue/pr filters spoil the whole member structure
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17:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 commented on pull request #8391: RFC: Feature: Public key company authorization
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18:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mattkimber updated pull request #8540: Fix eeb88e8: Trains reversed while paused do not correctly update sprite bounds
18:30<Timberwolf>Spoke too soon. I broke ships.
18:31<Timberwolf>Noticed it while reviewing videos, there was a one-frame glitch when a ship turned.
18:32<Timberwolf>We definitely need more people playing nightlies!
18:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #8551: Flat maps of arctic and tropical climates are completely inaccessible
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19:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station
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21:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] AKANexus opened issue #124: [pt_BR] Translator access request
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 11 00:00:49 2021