| --- | Log | opened Mon Feb 01 00:00:19 2021 |
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| 04:11 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: hey, I see a game in the store... :D |
| 04:11 | <@orudge> | although I also see some bits where you've clearly copied and pasted image captions in the description, which make little sense :D |
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| 04:32 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge updated pull request #8617: Feature: Convert .md to .rtf/.txt for installers https://git.io/Jt40E |
| 05:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "Processor: Yes" :p |
| 05:09 | <_dp_> | "OpenTTD is a business simulation game in which players try to earn money by transporting passengers and freight via road, rail, water and air." |
| 05:09 | <_dp_> | suuuree :p |
| 05:10 | <_dp_> | OpenTTD is a business simulator parody in which players try to find a goal to spend their infinite money on while fighting ecology-obsessed authorities, exploring spacecraft-like user interface and swearing at lost vehicles :p |
| 05:19 | <Wolf01> | Still 1 hour to wait :P |
| 05:23 | <Wolf01> | No workshop? Does it support matchmaking with steam friends? (just kidding) |
| 05:25 | <Wolf01> | Near the end of the description there's a refuse: [18] Players can optionally start <- looks like a wiki reference |
| 05:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a what? |
| 05:26 | <Wolf01> | [18] |
| 05:27 | <@orudge> | Yes, I think TrueBrain said he just copied and pasted text from the wiki... we might need to edit it a bit :) |
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| 05:31 | <Wolf01> | <Eddi|zuHause> a what? <- a typo, I was in italian mode |
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| 07:05 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | <_dp_ "OpenTTD is a business simulator "> I found an oddly satisfying playing mode where you cover the whole interface with windows, put in a bunch of AI, not build anything and only buy-sell stocks (up to 75%, so you don't need to maintain vehicles of course). It needed a few decades, but I won at the end. |
| 07:05 | <Wolf01> | Nice :D |
| 07:06 | <Wolf01> | Another play style |
| 07:06 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | It was surprising at first to see stocks loosing value in the millions in days when the AI hoarded enough cash to build a statue, but you could make a lot of money on that as well with the right timing and peeking at the finance windows from time to time |
| 07:07 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | It's kind of like a stock exchange or abstract business simulation but without the randomness - everything has a kind of "realistic" cause-effect chain in the underlying OpenTTD game. |
| 07:08 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | I wish the valuation graphs would refresh more often, though, as that could make day trading much easier. |
| 07:12 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Also the greatest challenge is to start investing in your biggest opponents. If they build an empire that is too profitable then even 25% could already be out of reach of your bank loan (perhaps support smaller fractions as well?). But after time, with the right economy events and a constant flood of new players and others going bankrupt, I could "surf" on top of them to gain more. |
| 07:12 | <_dp_> | aliasbkilgrinhu[m], it's a sandbox, with enough imagination you can play business simulator in it |
| 07:12 | <_dp_> | I just wouldn't call it a bussiness simulator on its own |
| 07:13 | * | aliasbkilgrinhu[m] uploaded an image: k Transport, 1992-10-28.png (111KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/ARpqcrMjBWOVGAxhtiSEjnNI/k Transport, 1992-10-28.png > |
| 07:14 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Do you know of any other open source business simulator game that is more abstract (i.e., requiring less micromanagement)? |
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| 07:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how are these two properties even related? |
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| 07:23 | <spnda> | How would one use the base station variables from https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Stations#Station_properties in a switch block? |
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| 07:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't think any of this is implemented |
| 08:28 | <FLHerne> | _dp_: That's the greatest description of OTTD I've ever read |
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| 08:48 | <supermop_Home> | hello |
| 08:48 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: not wiki, wikipedia :) |
| 08:48 | <TrueBrain> | and I love that the page counted down for 12 hours to end up showing a Coming Soon page |
| 08:48 | <TrueBrain> | Steam is very weird |
| 08:49 | <TrueBrain> | 2TallTyler btw wants to rewrite the "About the Game" section, which I am totally fine with |
| 08:49 | <TrueBrain> | the best I can do is copy/paste, honestly :) |
| 08:56 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: yes, quite |
| 09:06 | <TrueBrain> | right, replaced one icon and fixed a copy/paste error in the about game ... luckily, no longer needs a review by Steam people :P |
| 09:07 | <TrueBrain> | did someone really complain that we should have added it to Steam sooner? What a silly thing :P |
| 09:08 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: btw, I am currently very much -1 towards cloud saves .. as that would make OpenTTD via Steam completely different than any other platform we distribute via |
| 09:09 | <TrueBrain> | I rather invest in adding cloud saves ourselves, honestly |
| 09:10 | <TrueBrain> | https://store.steampowered.com/search/?sort_by=_ASC&term=openttd <- still not completely happy with that gfx, but at least already a bit better than what it was :P |
| 09:15 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: if you join the OpenTTD group, I can make you moderator btw :) |
| 09:17 | <supermop_Home> | are there docs that explain how to set the sizes of bounding boxes in nml? |
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| 09:24 | <FLHerne> | supermop_Home: There's https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Coordinates |
| 09:25 | <FLHerne> | supermop_Home: The real answer is "make bounding boxes visible in the GUI and adjust until it looks sane" |
| 09:25 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: how do I do that? :D |
| 09:26 | <TrueBrain> | click the Follow in the top right |
| 09:26 | <TrueBrain> | https://steamcommunity.com/app/1536610 <- on this page, for example |
| 09:26 | <@orudge> | I thought I had already |
| 09:26 | <@orudge> | well, I've followed it again now |
| 09:26 | <_dp_> | random idea: rearrange logo like this: https://i.imgur.com/vqQ7xMT.gif |
| 09:26 | <FLHerne> | supermop_Home: Also https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Spritelayout#Positioning |
| 09:27 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: and now you are a moderator :) |
| 09:27 | <@orudge> | Regarding cloud - I would be happy to do Steam cloud - the unofficial Android version does do 'native' cloud stuff there too - but it would need to be integrated in such a way that it doesn't affect a user's normal install I think. This of course wouldn't prevent a built-in OpenTTD cloud. But for another day, I think. |
| 09:27 | <FLHerne> | Advice says "Unless you know exactly what you are doing, do not define any offsets or extents, but use NML's defaults. They are most likely exactly what you need", which I'm not sure I agree with |
| 09:28 | <@orudge> | Amazing the amount of spam we seem to be getting now we're on Steam |
| 09:28 | <@orudge> | At least 3 e-mails today offering to 'promote' OpenTTD |
| 09:28 | <TrueBrain> | _dp_: I leave the judgement of those things to other people :D |
| 09:28 | <FLHerne> | orudge: There are probably bots watching for new arrivals? |
| 09:28 | <@orudge> | FLHerne: Probably |
| 09:29 | <FLHerne> | orudge: You should ask for more details of their promotion strategy, it can be funny |
| 09:31 | <FLHerne> | case in point http://flherne.uk/files/Reputation_Management_Strategy_for_AONM-1.doc |
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| 09:38 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: regarding Steam Cloud Saves, as I said: it might be easy to flip the switch, but I really do not fancy making Steam more special as distribution platform over all the others. It can only lead to us getting more questions and more things to support on a single platform .. especially for now, with the limited resources we have |
| 09:39 | <TrueBrain> | but there is also the problem of BaNaNaS |
| 09:39 | <TrueBrain> | we cannot just sync those files, license-wise .. at least .. someone needs to figure that out :P |
| 09:39 | <TrueBrain> | and doing only the saves will lead to many questions of people over time, as they will not understand that :D |
| 09:39 | <@orudge> | No, I know, it's not a case of just flipping the switch |
| 09:40 | <TrueBrain> | so for now at least, I think we should not suggest to people we might enable it, and if we do want it, evaluate it on the background :D |
| 09:41 | <TrueBrain> | it is however a very cheap way of doing this stuff ... |
| 09:41 | <TrueBrain> | remove all our own distribution and go all-in on Steam you say? :P |
| 09:51 | <@orudge> | Oh, speaking of |
| 09:51 | <@orudge> | Let's see what the AWS bill was last month |
| 09:51 | <TrueBrain> | owh, indeed |
| 09:52 | <@orudge> | $282 estimated |
| 09:54 | <TrueBrain> | Tax being a big part of that ofc |
| 09:54 | <TrueBrain> | lol |
| 09:55 | <SpComb> | that's barely enough for a couple m5.larges |
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| 09:55 | <TrueBrain> | that sneaks up on you :D |
| 09:55 | <TrueBrain> | around 50% is for the EC2 instances |
| 09:56 | <TrueBrain> | 25% for CloudFront (our CDN etc) |
| 09:56 | <TrueBrain> | 20% for ALB (for dynamic websites) |
| 09:56 | <TrueBrain> | and some peanuts for other stuff |
| 09:56 | <TrueBrain> | we can save 14 dollar per month by signing a 3 year contract |
| 09:56 | <TrueBrain> | yeah .... no tnx |
| 09:57 | <SpComb> | on-demand or 1y reserved/savings plan now? |
| 09:57 | <TrueBrain> | we currently run without any savings plan/reservation |
| 09:57 | <TrueBrain> | with a 3y savings plan, we would pay 30 dollar less (sorry, the 14 was for 1y) |
| 09:58 | <TrueBrain> | reservations on the other hand, are 30 dollar less for 1 year |
| 09:59 | <SpComb> | EC2 instance savings plans should be as good |
| 10:00 | <TrueBrain> | it really isn't :D |
| 10:00 | <TrueBrain> | bit wacky :P |
| 10:00 | <TrueBrain> | fun stat: yesterday 115 people wishlisted OpenTTD on Steam |
| 10:00 | <TrueBrain> | and we didn't even announce it .... lol |
| 10:01 | <TrueBrain> | LordAro: given we are now "Coming Soon" on Steam, I will make a news post on openttd.org as soon as the game review is done .. should be today or tomorrow :) |
| 10:02 | <TrueBrain> | (the Steam team is reviewing the game, to be clear) |
| 10:07 | <LordAro> | :+1: |
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| 10:20 | <TrueBrain> | https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/805819262995922954/OpenTTD_Steam_Text.rtf <- anyone objections if we make that the text on Steam? |
| 10:22 | <TrueBrain> | cannot believe how little time it took for people to notice it was on Steam .. very weird, releasing games on Steam .. :P |
| 10:27 | <supermop_Home> | FLHerne sorry i was doing something for work real quick |
| 10:28 | <supermop_Home> | my issue is less getting the offsets right to align the sprite, an more that the box is too tall |
| 10:28 | <supermop_Home> | or rather the block makes sense to me for values of the location and size of the pixels in the png i want |
| 10:29 | <supermop_Home> | and to shift it X/Y in terms of pixels |
| 10:29 | <supermop_Home> | but not in a way to set the xyz of the bounding box |
| 10:34 | <supermop_Home> | For example: https://imgur.com/a/loI5dY9 |
| 10:35 | <supermop_Home> | the default caternary wires have tiny boxes for wires and poles |
| 10:37 | <supermop_Home> | the depot is from my grf and has bounding boxes smaller than the sprite. But the log flume 'catenary' has a bounding box the size of the whole tile, when i want it to just be the size of the red box |
| 10:37 | <supermop_Home> | eg. 6px wide, 32 long, and 5 tall |
| 10:38 | <supermop_Home> | it is not at all clear to me how i set that in NML |
| 10:45 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: nitpit, TTD was released in 1995, not 1994 (TTO was released in 94). Looks good otherwise! |
| 10:45 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: stupid wikipedia :P |
| 10:45 | <TrueBrain> | lol @ Discussions on Steam ... we are not on there 1 day, and someone is already trying to bully us in his opinion :P |
| 10:51 | <TrueBrain> | I was expressing my opinion, he is talking about "outrage" .. I think he already has his pitchfork in hand |
| 10:51 | <@orudge> | Mm |
| 10:52 | <@orudge> | I have posted a comment on that; I don't think we should discount Steam cloud entirely, but I do think it needs to be thought about :) |
| 10:52 | <@orudge> | i.e., we don't rush into anything |
| 10:52 | <@orudge> | and consider all possible implications |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | yeah .. and he took it as: here, I worked out how to do it, now you do it |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | 5 minutes |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | go go |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | :P |
| 10:53 | <TrueBrain> | but ... "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" .. someone not involved always knows better how you should do your shit :P |
| 10:53 | <@orudge> | Yep |
| 10:55 | <Wolf01> | The new store page description fits nice now, good job :) |
| 10:55 | <TrueBrain> | tell that to 2TallTyler next time you see him :) |
| 10:56 | <Wolf01> | Yup, if I remember :P |
| 10:56 | <TrueBrain> | I forwarded it for you :) |
| 10:57 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: what do we use DigitalOcean for these days? |
| 10:57 | * | orudge isn't sure |
| 10:57 | <TrueBrain> | not really ... should be a 5 dollar bill |
| 10:57 | <TrueBrain> | there is a backup on there |
| 10:57 | <TrueBrain> | initially I was considering using DO to backup all our stuff |
| 10:58 | <TrueBrain> | (as it is 5 dollar per month to backup everything, basically :P) |
| 10:58 | <TrueBrain> | but I still haven't set that up, so I should just remove it |
| 10:58 | <TrueBrain> | (I do have backups btw; just they go to my backup vault .. not useful as that puts the bus-factor at 1 for backups :P) |
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| 11:01 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: fixed 1995 :) |
| 11:04 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda updated pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/JvLQL |
| 11:07 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: happy to pay for DO if it's of use |
| 11:08 | <TrueBrain> | it currently is not, so I am a bit annoyed with myself I didn't remove it |
| 11:08 | <LordAro> | what's the AWS bill these days? |
| 11:08 | <TrueBrain> | ~300 dollar, it seems |
| 11:09 | <LordAro> | per month? |
| 11:09 | <TrueBrain> | the January bill was ~300 dollar |
| 11:09 | <TrueBrain> | including tax :P |
| 11:09 | <LordAro> | isn't that still quite high? or is that significantly down on pre-cache servers? |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | significant :) |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | 50% of what it was 2 months before |
| 11:10 | <LordAro> | ah good |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | but it is still higher than I would like |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | but there is also not much what I can change |
| 11:11 | <@orudge> | We do have plenty of funds at present, and indeed donations have been quite high the past month or so |
| 11:11 | <@orudge> | I will keep an eye on things though |
| 11:12 | <TrueBrain> | tnx :) |
| 11:12 | <TrueBrain> | I cannot believe within 24h someone is trying to pick a fight on Steam already :P |
| 11:12 | <TrueBrain> | people are weird |
| 11:12 | <spnda> | for real? |
| 11:13 | <TrueBrain> | but if you check his profile, you understand why he is such a Steam fanboy btw :) |
| 11:13 | <supermop_Home> | i can believe it |
| 11:13 | <supermop_Home> | have you met people? they are the worst |
| 11:13 | <TrueBrain> | I am really enjoying Discord for most part, I have to say |
| 11:13 | <spnda> | same |
| 11:13 | <TrueBrain> | the OpenTTD community there is really positive and constructive, most of the time |
| 11:13 | <supermop_Home> | its a constructive game |
| 11:13 | <TrueBrain> | rarely people make you feel like shit over there :) |
| 11:15 | <supermop_Home> | so the depot sprite in my img up there is templated like this: [ 80, 218, 64, 61, -61, -45] |
| 11:16 | <spnda> | finally updated my 7955 pr btw. Only has one bug now and I've extended a bit of functionality and all. Kinda good now, if I don't want any custom mechanics for newgrf authors to define |
| 11:16 | <supermop_Home> | how does it know to have a really skinny bounding box from that? |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | spnda: one bug? Can you promise that? :P |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | or one bug you know of :D :D |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | <3 |
| 11:16 | <supermop_Home> | its just the size and location on the png |
| 11:16 | <spnda> | From a few testing it, nobody found anything that I haven't fixed yet. But yes, just one I know of |
| 11:17 | <supermop_Home> | however the log flume sprite is templated [ 80, 10, 64, 31, -31, 0] |
| 11:17 | <TrueBrain> | spnda: :D |
| 11:17 | <supermop_Home> | and has a huge bounding box??? |
| 11:20 | <supermop_Home> | i have no idea where i actually set the size of the bounding box |
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| 11:25 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/Jt0vP |
| 11:27 | <Timberwolf> | Yeah, Discord is nice. |
| 11:27 | <TrueBrain> | it shows all those people saying "it is part of being online" are wrong, honestly :) |
| 11:28 | <Timberwolf> | IMO it seems much quicker to regulate "that's not acceptable" than Reddit or forums. |
| 11:29 | <TrueBrain> | to me it also seems on Discord there is more respect to each other, as person |
| 11:30 | <TrueBrain> | I mean, it was you that tried to explain the world to a certain other user, not? These kind of interactions .. they make it really nice :) |
| 11:30 | <spnda> | TrueBrain: I would honestly say that the r/OpenTTD server is one of the nicest i've witnessed. I've seen servers with extremely toxic people on them. |
| 11:31 | <TrueBrain> | I am not surprised :P But at least it shows it can be done! |
| 11:31 | <spnda> | And after 3 years on Discord and being on 100 servers currently, I know a lot of them |
| 11:31 | <TrueBrain> | but I mean the OpenTTD Discord specifically, not the whole of Discord :P |
| 11:31 | <spnda> | yes yes |
| 11:32 | <Timberwolf> | Oh yes, that was kinda... I'm not sure if he's really going to be able to process all of the stuff Andy and I said into something useful, or is too deep into the paranoid space, but it's worth a try. |
| 11:32 | <TrueBrain> | I tried it 2 weeks before that .. it does seem to click slowly |
| 11:32 | <TrueBrain> | at least we take the time and effort .. that is what I like most :) |
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| 11:49 | <TrueBrain> | "2 Curators have reviewed this product. Click here to see them.", so I click "here": "No Steam Curators were found matching your search criteria." |
| 11:49 | <TrueBrain> | lol? |
| 11:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe language restrictions. or database not synced yet |
| 11:50 | <TrueBrain> | I can think of all kinds of reasons; but the fact is, Steam is a bit weird :P |
| 11:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that seems to be the industry standard nowadays :p |
| 11:58 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Have you guys considered connecting a Discord - Matrix bridge? |
| 11:58 | <TrueBrain> | you are aware you are asking that on IRC, right? :D |
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| 11:59 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | I'm using it over the automatic matrix.org bridge. |
| 11:59 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | A Discord - Matrix - IRC bridge would also be doable, but we had many problems with IRC in the past. |
| 12:00 | <TrueBrain> | okay, let me rephrase: how would it help this IRC channel to have a Discord - Matrix bridge? :D |
| 12:00 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | We're at the moment experimenting with a puppet-based XMPP-IRC-Matrix bridge. Some find it strange, but most are getting used to it. Sure beats kicking everyone out one by one. 😱 |
| 12:01 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | You mentioned that there are more interesting things happening over the OpenTTD Discord. Then I may consider joining that matrix room along with this matrix room. |
| 12:02 | <TrueBrain> | you would have to talk to the OpenTTD's Discord owners about that, I am afraid :) |
| 12:02 | <TrueBrain> | sorry, that might have been a bit unclear: the Discord server is not run by us |
| 12:02 | <TrueBrain> | (and that is fine :P) |
| 12:02 | <LordAro> | an IRC<->Discord bridge was tried in the past |
| 12:03 | <LordAro> | it lasted about 5 minutes before getting turned off |
| 12:03 | <spnda> | lol |
| 12:04 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | And what was the problem? |
| 12:04 | <spnda> | Just annoying and you can't really see whos online/whos there and its handled through a bot account, making things hard to read |
| 12:05 | <TrueBrain> | IRC is not made for these kind of bridges, honestly |
| 12:06 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Well, there exist real gateways that create users on both sides to circumvent this. But I don't prefer that due to many IRC server's 30 day kick policy. |
| 12:06 | <TrueBrain> | you either have what Matrix does, a swarm of people who join your IRC channel |
| 12:06 | <TrueBrain> | or a single account through which everyone talks |
| 12:06 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Yes. |
| 12:06 | <TrueBrain> | both are equally annoying for those directly connected to IRC |
| 12:06 | <TrueBrain> | Matrix, Discord, Slack, ... all solved this by now ... just .. IRC is old :P |
| 12:07 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | So this wouldn't be an issue between Matrix and Discord, right? |
| 12:07 | <TrueBrain> | but I myself am connected via Matrix .. just .. not via their default IRC bridge :D |
| 12:07 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Yes, I can see that dozens of people over here are all connected to this channel via Matrix based on usernames. |
| 12:07 | <_dp_> | why still use irc at all though? ;) |
| 12:08 | <TrueBrain> | _dp_: owh .. don't get me started please :P |
| 12:08 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Well, I also wondered, good question. 🤷 |
| 12:09 | <LordAro> | i have a pathological dislike of anything electron-based |
| 12:09 | <LordAro> | and i like the simplicity |
| 12:09 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | I've seen clients written in a few pages of Python. |
| 12:09 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | I've seen dozens of them. |
| 12:09 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | I can't believe it wouldn't be possible to implement one using FLTK in Rust or whatever. |
| 12:10 | <LordAro> | https://xkcd.com/1782/ |
| 12:10 | <LordAro> | etc |
| 12:10 | <TrueBrain> | basically, most people don't mind migrating, but a small number of people who we very much like and love, don't want to move .. so we stay here :) |
| 12:11 | <TrueBrain> | https://store.steampowered.com/app/1536610/OpenTTD/ <- we have a trailer :D A better one is coming soon (tm) |
| 12:12 | <TrueBrain> | but we need one for the review process |
| 12:12 | <TrueBrain> | tnx to 2TallTyler :) |
| 12:14 | <spnda> | I hate discord because its extremely slow and has so many issues with it. Other than that its my favourite platform probably |
| 12:14 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | I prefer open source technologies that can be self-hosted. |
| 12:15 | <TrueBrain> | and this is why we have more than 1 chat application :D |
| 12:15 | <spnda> | sure, yes, but I don't mind a service if their client is performant, looks good and is at best native |
| 12:16 | <TrueBrain> | I am happy I am using Element to connect to IRC .. the IRC clients were driving me crazy :P |
| 12:16 | <TrueBrain> | so used to the more .. modern approach to chat applications :D |
| 12:16 | <TrueBrain> | those silly irssi users .... I put them in the same group as emacs users :P |
| 12:17 | <Samu> | wow, openttd on steam |
| 12:17 | <TrueBrain> | (today in "how to offend as many people as you can with a few sentences") :D |
| 12:18 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | There exist various Qt/QML/C++ native clients already, you aren't tied to Element https://matrix.org/clients/ |
| 12:19 | <Samu> | why did you do that |
| 12:21 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Should we also mention tramways here? |
| 12:21 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1536610/OpenTTD/ |
| 12:22 | <+glx> | TrueBrain: and then you can also try to offend the vi people ;) |
| 12:22 | <TrueBrain> | I did consider that.. but there is a limit :D |
| 12:25 | <Samu> | the only reason i have discord is because of some dudes reviving Need For Speed World |
| 12:26 | <Samu> | I didn't know openttd had a discord |
| 12:26 | <Samu> | they force us to have a discord account just to play the game |
| 12:26 | <nielsm> | let me tell you what I dislike about discord: that they call a community "a server". don't tell me I have "a server" unless you can point to a specific piece of hardware or a specific group of processes on a specific machine that runs my service, only my service, and not anyone else's |
| 12:27 | <+glx> | nielsm: theu just use IRC language |
| 12:27 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | glx: I think everyone should be using TECO. I don't see how some people prefer fancy new technologies. |
| 12:30 | <TrueBrain> | nielsm: tell us how you feel :D |
| 12:31 | <Samu> | for me discord is just a glorified irc chat |
| 12:31 | <Samu> | but i see it can actually do more than that |
| 12:33 | <nielsm> | discord has some nice features, but I dislike the closedness in all the ways it's expressed, and the heaviness of the client |
| 12:34 | <Samu> | they host all the news/updates, chat, discussions, and community engagement in a single place |
| 12:36 | <Samu> | they recently bridged the in-game chat with discord chat, ppl can talk to and from and vice versa to players in the game |
| 12:36 | <Samu> | when i say talk, i mean text |
| 12:37 | <Samu> | btw, openttd should have a "global chat" |
| 12:37 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | We chat on matrix when we play games. 😀 |
| 12:39 | <supermop_Home> | you can already chat in openttd |
| 12:39 | <nielsm> | okay so I haven't been following the talk at all... what's the status/plans on any steam integration for ottd? |
| 12:39 | <_dp_> | luukland/novapolis/citymania had a "global" chat but it was quite confusing |
| 12:40 | <_dp_> | when "Player 1" tries to cooperate with "Player 2" only to half on hour later realize they're on different servers :p |
| 12:40 | <supermop_Home> | like why would you want to chat in game with people who are not playing in the same game as you currently |
| 12:41 | <Samu> | it's super useful, and keeps the community engaged |
| 12:41 | <supermop_Home> | hmm looks like about 8" of snow out |
| 12:41 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | To ask advise from more experienced players for example. |
| 12:41 | <supermop_Home> | might as well go out now before it gets deeper |
| 12:42 | <supermop_Home> | like how tho? |
| 12:42 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | * To ask for advice from more experienced players for example. |
| 12:42 | <TrueBrain> | nielsm: nothing concrete |
| 12:42 | <aliasbkilgrinhu[m]> | Although we usually prefer to talk via Jitsi/BBB in the background. Yes, I know that was what Mumble was created for.. |
| 12:43 | <Samu> | in need for speed world, we're all dumped into general English chat, we can be in different races but still follow what's being said in it |
| 12:43 | <supermop_Home> | like if i am playing minesweeper i just send a message into the void asking anyone else who happens to have minesweeper open "hey should i click this square" |
| 12:43 | <Samu> | as long as we're logged in the game, we're always in the chat |
| 12:44 | <supermop_Home> | so now my minesweeper is always talking to a sever, but no one can see what im doing, and i have to listen to random trolls from the millions of people who might be playing |
| 12:46 | <Samu> | in path of exile, i dare to say global chat is what keeps the game alive for me |
| 12:46 | <@orudge> | nielsm: We can't directly link to any Steam DLLs due to the GPL. In my head we could create some kind of generic "game store plugin interface" then create a non-GPL shim, but would need to investigate. |
| 12:46 | <FLHerne> | Samu: You can do 'global chat' with admin port, all the Reddit servers share one (and with #/r/openttd) |
| 12:46 | <@orudge> | We could do Apple Game Center integration, etc, too hypothetically |
| 12:48 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: is dynamic loading a violation of GPL? |
| 12:48 | <FLHerne> | orudge: Instead of new interface, have the game store start a wrapper that starts the game and talks to it by admin port as done now? |
| 12:48 | <FLHerne> | TrueBrain: yes |
| 12:48 | <TrueBrain> | People keep saying it is not possible, but how do we use Microsoft in that case? |
| 12:48 | <TrueBrain> | Euh, Windows |
| 12:50 | <TrueBrain> | As in, I doubt msvcrt is GPL compatible, not? |
| 12:51 | <TrueBrain> | (Honest question btw, trying to understand this :p) |
| 12:51 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: IANAL... was reading something about dynamic loading and how it is permissible |
| 12:51 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd |
| 12:51 | -!- | frosch123 is "frosch" on #openttd |
| 12:51 | <@orudge> | in some cases |
| 12:51 | <@orudge> | but not necessarily others |
| 12:51 | <@orudge> | Another day though |
| 12:52 | <FLHerne> | TrueBrain: from GPL 2.0 text: "However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable." |
| 12:53 | <FLHerne> | And the clause that prohibits non-GPL DLLs otherwise: "But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it." |
| 12:53 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #8634: Number of towns is limited if town name generator runs out of names https://git.io/Jt0IG |
| 12:53 | <FLHerne> | I suppose you could argue that means you can link against the Steam DLLs on SteamOS :p |
| 12:54 | <TrueBrain> | Weird exception, only limiting it to OS |
| 12:54 | <TrueBrain> | So you van integrate with Apple and Microsoft, but not with Steam? Sounds unfair |
| 12:55 | <FLHerne> | TrueBrain: Well, otherwise the license would be unusable for most projects, since basic things like creating a window on many platforms needs non-free libs |
| 12:55 | <TrueBrain> | Yeah, not arguing that. But scoping it to OS only is not really fair |
| 12:56 | <FLHerne> | You don't really *need* Steam integration in the same program, it's just a convenience |
| 12:56 | <TrueBrain> | As what an OS is .. a point of discussion :p |
| 12:56 | <FLHerne> | I suspect RMS would prefer that there be no exception... |
| 12:56 | <FLHerne> | TrueBrain: fwiw, the Linux kernel library has the opposite exception |
| 12:57 | <FLHerne> | (that any userspace code linked to it isn't bound by the GPL) |
| 12:57 | <TrueBrain> | It wouldn't survive otherwise |
| 12:58 | <spnda> | While more peopel are here right now. https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Stations#Station_properties Are the properties inherited from base stations implemented in NML? |
| 12:58 | <+glx> | what about "runtime" linking, ie dll loaded but never linked |
| 12:59 | <+glx> | like we used to do for SDL on win32 version |
| 13:00 | <@orudge> | I think it can't be a trivial dynamic link |
| 13:00 | <@orudge> | Hence my generic interface plus dynamically loaded plugin idea |
| 13:00 | <TrueBrain> | How would that solve it? |
| 13:01 | <TrueBrain> | As anything you load has to be compatible with GPL too, not? |
| 13:02 | <TrueBrain> | Load = link, lol |
| 13:02 | <+glx> | well exe can run without the dll in case of manual loading |
| 13:02 | <TrueBrain> | FLHerne: tnx for the details btw |
| 13:03 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, runtime linking can do that .. like we did with SDL indeed :) |
| 13:03 | <TrueBrain> | but you don't need a shim for that |
| 13:03 | <FLHerne> | spnda: NML stations are currently fictional |
| 13:03 | <@orudge> | The other thing though is from |
| 13:03 | <@orudge> | the Steam side |
| 13:03 | <spnda> | FLHerne: I know, but dont Airports exist in NML? |
| 13:04 | <spnda> | FLHerne: And they should be sharing those variables |
| 13:04 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8634: Number of towns is limited if town name generator runs out of names https://git.io/Jt0IG |
| 13:04 | <+glx> | station spec is silly :) |
| 13:04 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8634: Number of towns is limited if town name generator runs out of names https://git.io/Jt0IG |
| 13:04 | <+glx> | very hard to translate in nml |
| 13:04 | <FLHerne> | spnda: People complain about this sometimes, but no-one's implemented them |
| 13:04 | <@orudge> | A standalone build wouldn't be able to use Steam functionality - they could pop it into the steamapps folder I suppose, but we might have to be careful how it works |
| 13:05 | <FLHerne> | spnda: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Airports |
| 13:05 | <@orudge> | e.g. how long before somebody hard-codes their build of OpenTTD to grant them all achivements, or spam all their friends |
| 13:05 | <milek7_> | gpl-shim is controversial too |
| 13:05 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: well, there is the other stance, just to play devils advocate: who is going to sue us if we just dlopen() it which might or might not be a license issue? :P |
| 13:05 | <FLHerne> | spnda: The answer seems to be 'no', at least with those names |
| 13:05 | <milek7_> | AFAIR nvidia tried to pull that in kernel and they were told to get lost |
| 13:06 | <FLHerne> | spnda: I'm not sure why "airport_type" is supposed to be shared by all station types...? |
| 13:06 | <spnda> | Is it? Idk, I didnt make the spec |
| 13:06 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: yes, how we would add this, without people being able to abuse it, is a very good question :D |
| 13:06 | <@orudge> | Hence a 'proprietory' shim that ensures the OpenTTD build is signed by us, for instance, before talking to Steam |
| 13:06 | -!- | gelignite [~gelignite@55d448cc.access.ecotel.net] has joined #openttd |
| 13:06 | -!- | gelignite is "realname" on #llvm #openttd |
| 13:06 | <FLHerne> | spnda: The NML:Stations page you linked to says that |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: ah, okay; yeah, you made it sound like the shim was to avoid license issues |
| 13:07 | <@orudge> | People could write their own shims for app stores etc |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | but to keep things private, I can get that |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | doesn't really feel open-source-like |
| 13:07 | <@orudge> | No |
| 13:07 | <milek7_> | that's surely incompatible with gpl |
| 13:07 | <spnda> | Ok true, but another question: Are functions in general already a thing in NML? |
| 13:07 | <@orudge> | That's where things get somewhat grey |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | so we also need the talk if we want that :D |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | as in: what does it add vs what do we lose |
| 13:07 | <spnda> | It asks for a single argument, making me think the syntax would be cargo_amount_waiting("PASS") for example |
| 13:08 | <TrueBrain> | okay, I see why you say: not now, orudge :D |
| 13:08 | <@orudge> | Yes |
| 13:08 | <TrueBrain> | lets first get 1.11 out of the door :) |
| 13:08 | <FLHerne> | spnda: Yes |
| 13:08 | <spnda> | ok thanks |
| 13:08 | <+glx> | spnda: you have procedures in master NML |
| 13:08 | <FLHerne> | spnda: Lots of existing variables/callbacks are like that, particularly the industry ones |
| 13:08 | <spnda> | ok, never worked with industries |
| 13:09 | <spnda> | glx: Not sure what you mean? |
| 13:09 | <FLHerne> | In fact, IIRC industries have *exactly* `cargo_amount_waiting("PASS")` :P |
| 13:09 | <+glx> | you can write switches to be used as functions with parameters |
| 13:09 | <TrueBrain> | I am btw adding moderators to the Community Hub where I think that making them moderator adds value .. like I just added Kamnet as moderator :) |
| 13:09 | <spnda> | oh thats cool |
| 13:09 | <+glx> | and of course nml provides some built-ins too |
| 13:10 | <FLHerne> | spnda: Interesting...looking at the source, there *is* a set of definitions for base-station variables |
| 13:10 | <@orudge> | Again, ianal, but if OpenTTD has an open interface for anyone to plug-in their app store functionality, and it just scans a directory to find a suitable DLL, then separately, the non-GPL (could be MIT etc) shim that Steam distributes checks for authenticity... the GPL itself isn't being violated (I think). |
| 13:10 | <spnda> | Yes I know, which is why I was confused that theres no implementation for them |
| 13:10 | <@orudge> | Research needed for sure |
| 13:10 | <@orudge> | and discussions |
| 13:11 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: was going to suggest that :) |
| 13:11 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: honestly, I think the other question is more important. The talk: do we violate our own suggestion ... I cannot be bothered by that too much, honestly |
| 13:11 | <+glx> | I think for stations all easy stuff exists in nml, but not the major stuff like layouts |
| 13:11 | <TrueBrain> | but: do we want to add closed-source code to OpenTTD, is much more interesting :D |
| 13:11 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot opened pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0Lz |
| 13:12 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot commented on pull request #78: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0L2 |
| 13:12 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot closed pull request #78: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL79a |
| 13:12 | <TrueBrain> | owh, I forgot January, didn't I? Oops .. |
| 13:12 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed pull request #79: Revert chardet to 3.0.4 to fix compatibility issue with aiohttp, … https://git.io/JLxJJ |
| 13:12 | <@orudge> | TrueBrain: We wouldn't be adding it to OpenTTD, we'd be adding an open interface for people to use as they wish :) |
| 13:12 | <TrueBrain> | lot of spam incoming! |
| 13:12 | <LordAro> | January broke a load of things |
| 13:12 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot opened pull request #17: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0LD |
| 13:12 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot commented on pull request #16: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0Ly |
| 13:12 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: tomato tomato :) But yeah :) |
| 13:12 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot closed pull request #16: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL79X |
| 13:12 | <@orudge> | OpenTTD Distribution Ltd would provide a plugin for that interface... |
| 13:12 | <@orudge> | but yes |
| 13:12 | <@orudge> | I'm not in a hurry myself to do it |
| 13:13 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p548d910c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 13:13 | -!- | Progman is "Peter Henschel" on #openttdcoop.dev #openttd |
| 13:13 | <@orudge> | Just an interesting technical/legal/ethical debate |
| 13:13 | <TrueBrain> | I am +/- 0 on it |
| 13:13 | <milek7_> | authenticity check would be fine for GPLv2, but there's question whether shim is enough to isolated steamworks dll from GPL-ed openttd |
| 13:13 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #53: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0Lx |
| 13:13 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot commented on pull request #52: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0Lp |
| 13:13 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot closed pull request #52: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL797 |
| 13:13 | <milek7_> | *isolate |
| 13:13 | <TrueBrain> | I wouldn't actively help making it a reality, I think .. I rather have OpenTTD remains fully open source ... but my opinion needs refinement :) |
| 13:13 | <LordAro> | is it particularly different to linking against a closed source graphics library/libc ? |
| 13:14 | <LordAro> | e.g. windows/mac APIs |
| 13:14 | <milek7_> | there's 'system library exception' in GPL text |
| 13:14 | <TrueBrain> | LordAro: FLHerne posted the snippet earlier :) |
| 13:14 | <LordAro> | right |
| 13:14 | <@orudge> | Is there any sort of open source Steam equivalent? Probably not I guess, but we'd want to be able to integrate with such a thing if it came into being |
| 13:14 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #41: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0tG |
| 13:14 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot commented on pull request #40: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0tZ |
| 13:14 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot closed pull request #40: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL7Hv |
| 13:14 | <TrueBrain> | but the point orudge brings forward, besides the legal question, is the one: the Steam thing has to be closed source, otherwise everyone can modify OpenTTD to get all achievements instantly |
| 13:14 | <+glx> | of course it would be impossible to run any gpl under windows without the exception |
| 13:15 | <@orudge> | Hmm, so Apple Game Center is a system library |
| 13:15 | <@orudge> | so that would be fine ;) |
| 13:15 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: Microsoft Store too :P |
| 13:15 | <LordAro> | TrueBrain: alternatively, don't add achievements :p |
| 13:15 | <TrueBrain> | that is why this is very unfair, honestly, but okay |
| 13:15 | <TrueBrain> | LordAro: yup |
| 13:15 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0ta |
| 13:15 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot commented on pull request #41: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0tV |
| 13:15 | <FLHerne> | orudge: I think a plugin loaded into OpenTTD and using its APIs might be a derived work of it, in which case it would have to be GPL? |
| 13:15 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot closed pull request #41: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL7H3 |
| 13:15 | <@orudge> | FLHerne: quite possibly |
| 13:15 | <FLHerne> | I suppose NewGRFs etc. are a counterexample that it's not been seen that way |
| 13:16 | <FLHerne> | But then that interface also exists in TTDPatch |
| 13:16 | <FLHerne> | Or at least some of it does |
| 13:16 | <LordAro> | or, don't worry about it? if someone is dedicated enough, they can probably add a relevant call to Steam_Give_Achievement or whatever to a binary |
| 13:16 | <LordAro> | sure it's easier with open source, but... do we care? |
| 13:16 | <@orudge> | It's more whether Valve would care |
| 13:16 | <FLHerne> | How about have Steam launch a wrapper daemon that starts OTTD and then talks to it by adminport? |
| 13:17 | <@orudge> | Could be an option too |
| 13:17 | <+glx> | valve accepts silly games with thousands of stupid achievments |
| 13:17 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Jt0t9 |
| 13:17 | <@DorpsGek> | - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) |
| 13:18 | <_dp_> | run a server that gives achievements :p |
| 13:18 | <nielsm> | <FLHerne> How about have Steam launch a wrapper daemon that starts OTTD and then talks to it by adminport? <-- useless, adminport only exists on multiplayer servers |
| 13:18 | <nielsm> | it doesn't exist in menu, doesn't exist in singleplayer, doesn't exist when client in someone else's game |
| 13:19 | <nielsm> | https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/tree/rich-presence |
| 13:19 | <nielsm> | going to link that branch of mine again |
| 13:20 | <milek7_> | > the non-GPL (could be MIT etc) shim that Steam distributes checks for authenticity |
| 13:20 | <milek7_> | this also sorts of misses the point.. you could just patch authenticity check out :P |
| 13:20 | <FLHerne> | nielsm: That's a solvable problem, but your solution is probably better |
| 13:20 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #24: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0qZ |
| 13:20 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot commented on pull request #23: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0qn |
| 13:20 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot closed pull request #23: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL7Ho |
| 13:20 | <nielsm> | and goes with for example https://github.com/nielsmh/ottd-discord |
| 13:20 | <FLHerne> | I forgot about that |
| 13:20 | <spnda> | Yeah, I had a rich presence fork too. I can only imagine Valve will be alright if they provide a header file that it might be included in a open source repository, or is it really fully copyrighted?? |
| 13:20 | <milek7_> | trying to prevent achievment-cheating is just impossible |
| 13:20 | <@orudge> | milek7_: Steam |
| 13:20 | <TrueBrain> | nielsm: you have too many cool patches :D |
| 13:20 | <@orudge> | can possibly verify that |
| 13:20 | <@orudge> | not sure |
| 13:21 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #19: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February https://git.io/Jt0qV |
| 13:21 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot commented on pull request #18: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/Jt0qw |
| 13:21 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot closed pull request #18: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JL7HD |
| 13:21 | <nielsm> | I made an OpenTTD developer account thing for discord two years ago or something, whenever I worked on that last |
| 13:21 | <nielsm> | nobody ever answered when I asked whether to proceed with it |
| 13:22 | <nielsm> | or who else to add for control of that account |
| 13:22 | <milek7_> | orudge: I don't think so |
| 13:22 | <milek7_> | you can enable their "DRM", but then shim wouldn't be open source.. |
| 13:22 | <@orudge> | The shim can't be open source in this case; or at least the secret keys can't be (hence would need to be a more permissive licence) |
| 13:23 | <@orudge> | The question is can OpenTTD.exe load something that is non-GPL? |
| 13:23 | <@orudge> | (other than sys libraries |
| 13:24 | <spnda> | I imagine yes |
| 13:24 | <spnda> | Wouldnt work licensed under MIT work fine? |
| 13:24 | <spnda> | for example |
| 13:24 | <nielsm> | if it can't function without that extra thing, then it's a self-violation of GPL |
| 13:24 | <@orudge> | But it would |
| 13:25 | <@orudge> | if it can't find a plugin DLL, it just plays withoit |
| 13:25 | <@orudge> | without it |
| 13:25 | <nielsm> | if that extra thing is optional/pluggable/replaceable with something else that could potentially be open, then it's not an issue, I think |
| 13:25 | <FLHerne> | orudge: Again, I believe the answer is 'no' |
| 13:25 | <spnda> | yeah, why not write our own Steam API lol |
| 13:25 | <@orudge> | nielsm: that's the idea |
| 13:25 | <nielsm> | that's the principle I went by for that discord integration POC |
| 13:25 | <@orudge> | Yes |
| 13:26 | <@orudge> | Something like that is what I had in mind |
| 13:26 | <milek7_> | GPL is somewhat underspecified.. does dynamic linking in PE is ok? does GetProcAddress is ok? does IPC shared memory is ok? does network socket is ok? etc. etc.. :P |
| 13:27 | <FLHerne> | orudge: "For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable" |
| 13:27 | <milek7_> | I think network-socket isolation is safest |
| 13:27 | <nielsm> | I think the concept of the GPL is that you need source code that is in a format preferred for human editing, and that the source code supplied must be complete to be able to build a functionally identical copy of the program to any supplied binaries |
| 13:28 | <FLHerne> | orudge: More specific quote: " If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose |
| 13:28 | <FLHerne> | permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole," |
| 13:28 | <FLHerne> | I think 'a Steam download' would count as a whole |
| 13:28 | <nielsm> | so if parts of the "source code" required to make that functionally identical copy is a restricted binary library, then the source code distribution doesn't fulfll GPL's requirements |
| 13:28 | <FLHerne> | (even if you assume such a plugin isn't inherently a derived work) |
| 13:29 | <nielsm> | yeah the issue happens in distribution... |
| 13:30 | <milek7_> | https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#MereAggregation |
| 13:30 | <milek7_> | FSF is not helpful.. "Where's the line between two separate programs, and one program with two parts? This is a legal question, which ultimately judges will decide." |
| 13:33 | <nielsm> | "it's only a problem if someone complains" |
| 13:34 | <nielsm> | and well, as long as unencumbered downloads are available there's no reason to complain IMO |
| 13:35 | <nielsm> | if openttd.exe is identical in the openttd.org and the steam download, but the steam download just includes another dll (which might have source available under MIT or BSD license but need to be linked with closed Valve libraries), then nobody should have good reasons to complain |
| 13:35 | <TrueBrain> | orudge: it is nice that nielsm seems to have done most of the work already :P :P |
| 13:36 | <TrueBrain> | nielsm: and what if that dll is closed source? Not legally, but how would you feel about that? |
| 13:36 | <milek7_> | "However, in many cases you can distribute the GPL-covered software alongside your proprietary system. To do this validly, you must make sure that the free and nonfree programs communicate at arms length, that they are not combined in a way that would make them effectively a single program." |
| 13:36 | <frosch123> | i think the distinction happens on the side of the social connector |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | if the social connector has a generic api, that is also usable with other games, it is fine |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | if the socal connector only works with ottd, then it is not fine |
| 13:37 | <spnda> | Why do action2 variables begin at 0x40 and is there any maximum/range that I need to stay within? |
| 13:37 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: so we all should make a very silly game, and adept the social connector? :D |
| 13:38 | <frosch123> | spnda: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2#Variable |
| 13:39 | <spnda> | so 0x80 is the max I guess... that doesnt leave that much room but thanks |
| 13:39 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: i think the concept is enough. otherwise you have to say, that newgrf only run with ottd, and thus must be gpl :p |
| 13:39 | <nielsm> | frosch123: that would imply making closed plugins for a GPL program would be impossible |
| 13:39 | <TrueBrain> | :D |
| 13:39 | <nielsm> | and well, it's a problem linux faces, closed source modules (drivers) |
| 13:40 | <nielsm> | the resulting in-memory binary image is unredistributable, but the individual parts are fine |
| 13:40 | <milek7_> | linux has separate EXPORT_SYMBOL/EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL |
| 13:42 | <milek7_> | https://lwn.net/Articles/154602/ |
| 13:44 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8625: Inconsistencies with "scoring year" https://git.io/JtBO6 |
| 13:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <TrueBrain> you either have what Matrix does, a swarm of people who join your IRC channel <-- which is essentially like a netsplit |
| 13:47 | <milek7_> | frosch123: >if the social connector has a generic api, that is also usable with other games, it is fine |
| 13:47 | <milek7_> | then.. could we say that steamworks dll has generic enough api (it works with lot of different games), that steamworks and openttd is thus separate program, and there's no problem with linking to steamworks? |
| 13:48 | <frosch123> | no, you can only say that if there are also other social connectors implementing the steamworks api |
| 13:48 | <frosch123> | both sides need to be pluggable |
| 13:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <spnda> Why do action2 variables begin at 0x40 and is there any maximum/range that I need to stay within? <-- the historical division is something like this: 0x00-0x3F "global variables", 0x40-0x5F "vehicle-specific variables that are calculated", 0x60-0x7F "variables that require a parameter" and 0x80-0xFF "variables that are mapped to original TTD vehicle data structure" |
| 13:49 | <@orudge> | A generic MIT-licensed library that offers an interface to Steam/Discord/Apple/MS would be quite useful for a lot of games I suspect |
| 13:50 | <TrueBrain> | doesn't it exist already? |
| 13:50 | <milek7_> | frosch123: from GPL text point of view, does that whether something is pluggable matters at all? |
| 13:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think it's called "haze" |
| 13:50 | <milek7_> | as in, it doesn't matter dynamic/static/ipc/whatever, but intent matters, and every reasonable person would tell that steam and openttd is *not* the same program |
| 13:51 | <TrueBrain> | hihi, SteamWorks writes this about it: |
| 13:51 | <TrueBrain> | Which Open Source Licenses are problematic for shipping on Steam? |
| 13:51 | <TrueBrain> | Generally, any license that has a so-called “copyleft” element will be problematic when combining code with the Steamworks SDK. The best-known example is GPL. |
| 13:51 | <TrueBrain> | But I saw a GPL-licensed application on Steam! |
| 13:51 | <TrueBrain> | This can happen if the author of the code that is GPL-licensed has given the permission to do so. The author can of course always (a) decide to grant Valve a different license than the author grants everyone else or (b) decide that what the Steamworks SDK does is just a communication with a service that does not invoke the copyleft requirement of the GPL. |
| 13:52 | <TrueBrain> | ( https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/sdk/uploading/distributing_opensource ) |
| 13:52 | <@orudge> | Yes |
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| 13:52 | <TrueBrain> | I like that they are aware of this :D |
| 13:52 | <nielsm> | openttd copyright is amalgam, right? not signed-over |
| 13:52 | <TrueBrain> | btw, orudge , seen your PM? :D |
| 13:52 | <nielsm> | since there's no entity to sign copyright over to |
| 13:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah. we effectively have no way to relicense OpenTTD to fulfill (a) |
| 13:53 | <nielsm> | it'd be practically impossible to get permission from every contributor ever to relicense |
| 13:54 | <TrueBrain> | I just love that they too create the room to say: you can use this on GPL, but nobody knows that really for sure, so it is how you balance this :) |
| 13:54 | <+glx> | (b) is kinda manual loading ;) |
| 13:55 | <TrueBrain> | b) is another way of saying what has been said here today too, in many different forms and formats :) |
| 13:56 | <+glx> | or basically we just need an admin like port dedicated to outside apps connections |
| 13:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | my IANAL opinion is that (b) is fulfilled if you can start the same binary both with and without steamworks integration |
| 13:57 | <TrueBrain> | right, news post is ready ... now to wait for Steam to finish their review of our game itself .... pam pam pammmmmm |
| 13:57 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #8088: Number of towns is silently limited if town name generator runs out of names https://git.io/JfvNr |
| 13:57 | <TrueBrain> | people are already writing guides to put on Steam |
| 13:57 | <TrueBrain> | people already wrote reviews to post when it releases .. |
| 13:57 | <TrueBrain> | people seem to really like Steam |
| 13:58 | <TrueBrain> | or, like OpenTTD .. |
| 13:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's no way the steam release will not be a huge success |
| 13:58 | <TrueBrain> | either one of the two :P |
| 13:58 | <TrueBrain> | how do we measure success there? |
| 13:59 | <TrueBrain> | that our AWS bill goes through the roof? :P |
| 13:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in terms of number of players |
| 13:59 | <TrueBrain> | BaNaNaS VPSes fall over? :D |
| 13:59 | <TrueBrain> | I am scared shitless :P |
| 13:59 | <milek7_> | AWS bill is not dependent on steam downloads, though? :P |
| 13:59 | <@orudge> | Eddi|zuHause: certainly nothing I've proposed would prevent running the Steam-distributed openttd.exe outside Steam, or replacing it with another openttd.exe. But I'd personally be avoiding loading steam_api.dll from openttd.exe. If only because we want to support Discord etc too! |
| 13:59 | <nielsm> | more players => more bananas usage |
| 13:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | milek7_: but more players means more bananas downloads |
| 13:59 | <TrueBrain> | more players, more wiki visits |
| 13:59 | <TrueBrain> | more players, more everything :P |
| 14:00 | <@orudge> | Extra Bananas VPSes should be cheaper than aws |
| 14:00 | <TrueBrain> | but, honestly, the AWS setup should just be able to scale fine |
| 14:00 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: success is when you get a sponsored by github for making so many people sign up at them |
| 14:00 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: hahaha :D |
| 14:00 | <TrueBrain> | I like the way you think there :D |
| 14:01 | <TrueBrain> | well, I walk into this with the attitude of ignorance is bliss, as there is this possibility we get too many user-questions for us to do anything else :P |
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| 14:02 | <nielsm> | big risk of the bugtracker needing full time janitors |
| 14:02 | <nielsm> | you mean? |
| 14:02 | <TrueBrain> | more than we currently have, yes |
| 14:02 | <TrueBrain> | :P |
| 14:03 | <TrueBrain> | and the possibility we need more moderators on Steam :P |
| 14:03 | <frosch123> | do you even link the bugtracker from steam? |
| 14:03 | <frosch123> | i doubt people would find it |
| 14:03 | <TrueBrain> | you are not allowed to make links outside of the ones they allow you |
| 14:03 | <TrueBrain> | so no, there is not |
| 14:03 | <TrueBrain> | well, kamnet posted it in the Discussions |
| 14:04 | <frosch123> | he, i never used steam. i did not expect that you need your own moderators |
| 14:04 | <Wolf01> | <TrueBrain> and the possibility we need more moderators on Steam :P <- I vote for andy :P |
| 14:04 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: you don't need to; that is, reports go to Valve atm |
| 14:04 | <Wolf01> | <nielsm> big risk of the bugtracker needing full time janitors <- I vote for andy |
| 14:04 | <Xaroth> | What did any do to deserve that? :P |
| 14:04 | <Wolf01> | He's good at it |
| 14:05 | <TrueBrain> | the possible URLs you can have on Steam are: Game Website, Forums, Stats, Online Manual |
| 14:06 | <Timberwolf> | I think Steam will increase the trend of people who are not familiar with the original reporting issues that stem from, "it's a game from 1994, you have to make allowances for this" |
| 14:06 | <Timberwolf> | Which is good and bad. |
| 14:06 | <TrueBrain> | https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/openttd <- 8.8 \o/ :P |
| 14:06 | <Timberwolf> | Some of them do raise things where it's like, "oh... yeah, that's kind of bad and not too hard to fix" |
| 14:07 | <Timberwolf> | The problem is they also tend to raise about 50 at once :) |
| 14:07 | <TrueBrain> | we had a few of these people lately ........... |
| 14:07 | <TrueBrain> | like .... prioritize your issues ffs :P |
| 14:08 | <Wolf01> | <TrueBrain> https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/openttd <- 8.8 \o/ :P <- "negative reviews: 3" *click* "there are no negative reviews"... that's a bit... steamy |
| 14:08 | <TrueBrain> | last review seems to be from 2015 |
| 14:08 | <TrueBrain> | so what can I say :P |
| 14:09 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #8625: Inconsistencies with "scoring year" https://git.io/JtBO6 |
| 14:10 | <frosch123> | we have more positive reviews than factorio has negative ones :p |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | i like how the release dates for ottd are always random numbers |
| 14:12 | <_dp_> | "Designer/Producer/Programmer credits provided by GameFAQs." |
| 14:12 | <_dp_> | gamefaqs: "Release: October 23, 2011" xD |
| 14:14 | <frosch123> | steam lists the date of 0.1.1 |
| 14:14 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #8625: Inconsistencies with "scoring year" https://git.io/JtBO6 |
| 14:14 | <_dp_> | lol, gamefaqs has 23 oct for "linux" but 25 for "pc" |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | oh, wikipedia also has the 0.1.1 date |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | i guess people forgot about 0.0.1 :) |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | err, 0.1.0 |
| 14:16 | <Timberwolf> | GitHub needs an "open issues per user" setting :) |
| 14:17 | <spnda> | just search for the user? user:spnda for example |
| 14:17 | <spnda> | author* sorry |
| 14:17 | <frosch123> | "you are not allowed to open a new PR, before you give useful feedback on someone else's?" |
| 14:17 | <Timberwolf> | Heh :) |
| 14:17 | <spnda> | oh nvm my remark, misread |
| 14:17 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: that is not by accident, those dates are the same .. |
| 14:17 | <TrueBrain> | I copy pasted a lot :P |
| 14:18 | <TrueBrain> | if you have the "more correct" date, feel free :D |
| 14:18 | <TrueBrain> | to share |
| 14:18 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: it hardly matters :) 0.1.0 was 2004-03-06. 1.0.0 was 2010-04-01 |
| 14:18 | <frosch123> | both are pointless |
| 14:19 | <frosch123> | what do they mean to a steam user? |
| 14:19 | <TrueBrain> | I can make it what-ever we want :) |
| 14:19 | <TrueBrain> | nothing |
| 14:19 | <TrueBrain> | absolutely completely and utterly nothing |
| 14:19 | <TrueBrain> | just a gimmick :) |
| 14:19 | <frosch123> | is there a different entry for "date of latest update"? |
| 14:22 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8625: Inconsistencies with "scoring year" https://git.io/JtBO6 |
| 14:23 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: sort of .. we create news about new releases when they happen |
| 14:23 | <TrueBrain> | and the last one is kept on top |
| 14:24 | <_dp_> | NoNewspaper? :p |
| 14:26 | <nielsm> | maybe only show the newspaper when the scoring date is the original one |
| 14:26 | <nielsm> | and otherwise do something else |
| 14:26 | <TrueBrain> | I love the "Just ask the graphics authors" .. mostly I was thinking: shit .. who to ask?! :P |
| 14:26 | <TrueBrain> | balloons! |
| 14:26 | <TrueBrain> | Rick Roll? |
| 14:27 | <TrueBrain> | but I mean .. OpenGFX, who maintains that? zBase? abase? Do they still get updates? |
| 14:27 | <TrueBrain> | :D |
| 14:27 | <nielsm> | anyone got Simon Foster's email? |
| 14:27 | <_dp_> | show popup window like all GS plebs :p |
| 14:27 | <frosch123> | would anyone notice if we delete the end-year, win-screen and highscore? |
| 14:28 | <nielsm> | I don't think anyone would really miss them no... |
| 14:28 | <frosch123> | i got away deleting difficulty settings and 3/4 of the highscore tables :p |
| 14:28 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: nope! found out today there is a highscore button |
| 14:28 | <nielsm> | the high score screen could be replaced with a regular popup window instead |
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| 14:28 | <nielsm> | it would be less interrupting for multiplayer games too |
| 14:28 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: sorry, i put it there when deleting the difficulty settings. i should have forgotten to add it |
| 14:29 | <_dp_> | I suggested to delete it all just yesterday :p |
| 14:29 | <TrueBrain> | yes, you should have :P |
| 14:29 | <nielsm> | in singleplayer the window could have a pair of classic "save and quit" and "keep playing" buttons |
| 14:29 | <TrueBrain> | I think it is a nice gimmick, the highscore table, honestly |
| 14:29 | <TrueBrain> | it doesn't do anything, it is just nice to have |
| 14:29 | <TrueBrain> | means the game has an end |
| 14:29 | <frosch123> | it also removed the need to find gender-neutral business titles :p |
| 14:30 | <nielsm> | but I need my declaration of having become Tycoon of the Century! |
| 14:30 | <nielsm> | (I do like that honestly) |
| 14:31 | <frosch123> | nielsm: oh, right. noone reported that the "tycoon of the century" sprite had 50% water cycle in opengfx |
| 14:31 | <frosch123> | that's also when i learned there is a different sprite for full score |
| 14:37 | <_dp_> | rip it all out, but make GS api and TheEndGS for all the aesthetes :p |
| 14:37 | <_dp_> | along with performance score while at it |
| 14:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think we should use 1.0.0 as the canonical "release date" for openttd |
| 14:38 | <@orudge> | Hey, I used to like tracking my performance score, 20 years ago :P |
| 14:38 | <_dp_> | orudge, I'm not suggesting to remove it from original TTD :p |
| 14:41 | <_dp_> | TTD was quite a wholesome game, but OpenTTD moved on |
| 14:41 | <_dp_> | despite all the "faithful" claimes it's quite a different game now |
| 14:49 | <nielsm> | yeah TT and TTD were games designed to be played with a predefined ruleset to a predefined goal, OTTD is designed to be played with infinite different rulesets for self-defined goals |
| 14:57 | <_dp_> | yeah, and in TTD you played agains AIs that aren't even part of the game now |
| 14:58 | <_dp_> | what happens to ai companies in original saves btw? |
| 14:58 | <spnda> | TrueBrain: I see you have added 29 languages. But doesnt the game have like nearly 60 different languages? |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | yup; ironically we support more languages than Steam does :P |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | you cannot select random ones .. only those they support :P |
| 14:58 | <spnda> | oh its a steam limit? lol |
| 14:59 | <TrueBrain> | I was happy that all languages Steam has, we have too |
| 14:59 | <TrueBrain> | not that we miss 1 or 2 or something |
| 15:02 | <frosch123> | _dp_: ai companies with unknown ai scripts get a random ai, or the dummy ai if no ai is installed at all |
| 15:02 | <frosch123> | the original ai is just always "unknown" |
| 15:04 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: are you as upset as i am, that search engines already indexed "openttd steam" |
| 15:04 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: :o :o :o |
| 15:04 | <TrueBrain> | yes, that annoys me |
| 15:04 | <TrueBrain> | like a lot |
| 15:05 | <_dp_> | in before it becomes #1 :p |
| 15:06 | <_dp_> | on "openttd" |
| 15:19 | <+glx> | way faster than indexing the new wiki |
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| 16:13 | <spnda> | where are stations/tiles/roadstops or whatever saved/loaded? (my pr 7955 prolly needs a savegame upgrade, also, I got the base station NML 0x60+x vars to work) |
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| 16:24 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #8616: Add: Currency: Indonesian Rupiah (IDR) https://git.io/Jt0Cr |
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| 17:06 | <supermop_Home> | spnda sounds neat |
| 17:09 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda updated pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/JvLQL |
| 17:11 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #8636: Untranslatable strings in save/load dialog https://git.io/Jt08Y |
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| 17:47 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/Jts3i |
| 17:49 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/Jt0Bq |
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| 18:28 | <_dp_> | known-bugs.txt needs a review, some stuff like #5661 was definitely fixed |
| 18:38 | <TrueBrain> | It is so funny to read :p |
| 18:38 | <TrueBrain> | But yes, it needs updating |
| 18:39 | <TrueBrain> | Or throwing away |
| 18:39 | <TrueBrain> | :p |
| 18:41 | <_dp_> | some stuff is explained really nicely there |
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| 18:47 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8637: Fix: [CMake] Language files should depend on english.txt https://git.io/Jt005 |
| 18:50 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8637: Fix: [CMake] Language files should depend on english.txt https://git.io/Jt0Ev |
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| 20:33 | <Wuzzy> | new version of OpenSFX update available: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenSFX/pull/8 |
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| --- | Log | closed Tue Feb 02 00:00:21 2021 |
