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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-02-07

---Logopened Sun Feb 07 00:00:28 2021
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03:12<andythenorth>send cat
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03:23<Wolf01>Who got sand from sahara direct to home delivery?
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03:43<TrueBrain>jgx: you have to be a bit more specific. "problems" is rather undefined. So better to ask what exactly, or otherwise our bugtracker is happy to receive some words of text too :)
03:46<andythenorth>TrueBrain I have problems!
03:46<andythenorth>pls help!
03:47<TrueBrain>we all know, and those are also not fixable by mere mortals, sorry
03:49<andythenorth>is this not #traintherapy
03:49<andythenorth>wrong channel?
03:51<TrueBrain>this is a day of: I should do A, but lets first finish X
03:51<TrueBrain>after X
03:51<TrueBrain>what was I going to do again?
03:53<TrueBrain>first time in 10 years we had a snowstorm in our country
03:53<TrueBrain>the snow is up against my door
03:53<TrueBrain>if I open it, I am not going to be able to close it
03:54<andythenorth>go sledging
03:55<TrueBrain>changing the order of screenshots on Steam takes a bit out of you
03:55<TrueBrain>drag ... wait ... wait ... wait ... wait ...
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04:19<TrueBrain>the amount of people that wishlisted OpenTTD on Steam are 10% linux, 89% Windows, and 1% macOS :P
04:20<TrueBrain>the rockpapershotgun article seems to have helped with the amount of people that wishlisted it :P
04:35<TrueBrain>michi_cc: macOS on VMWare works a lot better than on VirtualBox, holy crap .. that is a world of difference :P
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05:01<andythenorth>oof GRM
05:01<andythenorth>seems can't have 2 versions of CHIPS active, even with different grfids
05:02<andythenorth>as they use GRM, presumably for same sprite ranges
05:02*andythenorth guessing
05:02<TrueBrain>fix it!
05:02<TrueBrain>(or maybe more important .. why do you want 2 versions active :P)
05:03<andythenorth>I am trying to provide a legacy version
05:03<andythenorth>as I just changed a load of stuff, that breaks other things
05:03<andythenorth>and players WILL try and load both grfs
05:03<andythenorth>and that WILL cause bug reports on reddit
05:03<andythenorth>then I will cry
05:04<andythenorth>kinda thinking just move FORWARDS
05:04<andythenorth>the past is broken
05:26<TrueBrain>lol .. so I couldn't find the VMWare Tools for MacOS
05:26<TrueBrain>so I installed VMWare Fusion inside of the VM
05:26<TrueBrain>THERE THEY ARE :)
05:34<TrueBrain>hmm, network is not working .. sadddd
05:38<TrueBrain>mostly, NAT doesn't work
05:38<TrueBrain>be like that
05:40<jgx>TrueBrain - of course. that was just a whistle in the wind. Is this the right place? Seems the compile channel is closed.
05:40<TrueBrain>@topic get 3
05:40<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:41<TrueBrain>is our motto
05:42<jgx>Ah, yes, been at this for hours since I read that. Is allegro4 or allegro5? Loads of errors in Building CXX object CMakeFiles/openttd.dir/src/music/allegro_m.cpp.o that look like missing include/libs
05:42<jgx>error: ‘MIDI’ does not name a type; etc
05:43<TrueBrain>in general allegro is only used for DOS (lol, I know right)
05:43<TrueBrain>so my first question is: why are you trying allegro?
05:43<jgx>allegro docs are incomplete; typedef struct MIDI is mentioned but ther reference foes nowhere
05:43<TrueBrain>(honest question)
05:43<jgx>Just following the instructions...
05:43<TrueBrain>what instructions would that be?
05:44<jgx>cmake found allegro so it is attempting to pull it in
05:44<TrueBrain>ah, you have it installed locally :)
05:44<TrueBrain>it has been a while anyone tried the allegro driver I am sure :D
05:45<jgx>mkdir build ; cd build ; cmake .. ; make
05:45<TrueBrain>now I need to remember how to tell CMake to stop using Allegro :P
05:45<Wolf01>Meh, got the test result, still positive :S
05:46<TrueBrain>Wolf01: wow, that is taking forever :(
05:46<jgx>I can turn it off for building under linux? If so, I'll dothat. it is nearing dawn ...
05:46<TrueBrain>jgx: do you have allegro 4 or 5 installed?
05:46<TrueBrain>for linux, you only need SDL
05:47<TrueBrain>allegro should compile, but there is no need to use it, really :)
05:47<TrueBrain>I will look into why it fails compiling
05:47<jgx>Great info! Thanks - will try after I sleep. Worst case I'll just uninstall allegro until I get it built
05:48<TrueBrain>and if you just want to play the game, you can also download our generic linux build
05:48<jgx>Much obliged for the tips.
05:48<TrueBrain>no worries
05:50<+michi_cc>Hmm, mouse movement on OSX is kinda broken for me, as apparently warping the mouse cursor doesn't work at all. I'm suspecting some interference with VM guest drivers...
05:50<TrueBrain>I am installing 11.2 now :D
05:51<TrueBrain>okay, allegro4 works
05:51<TrueBrain>allegro5 is not being detected by CMake for me .. hmm
05:51<jgx>it's linked in /etc/alternatives. I'll put up allegro4 and retry
05:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
05:53<+michi_cc>Okay, that pitch bug is now squashed.
05:54<TrueBrain>hmm, nope, when I installed it on ubuntu 20.04, it doesn't want to detect allegro5 :)
05:54<TrueBrain>so I guess the driver works only with allegro4 :P
05:55<TrueBrain>yeah, it registers itself in pkg-config as allegro-5
05:55<TrueBrain>which makes sense
05:55<TrueBrain>what OS are you on jgx ?
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06:05<erle->Which one is more active, zBase or aBasE?
06:07<Wolf01><TrueBrain> the rockpapershotgun article seems to have helped... <- and yet it expanded a non-acronym :P
06:08<Wolf01>So it helps in one way and kicks you in the back :D
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06:15<+michi_cc>Does andythenorth have time for a short test?
06:15<andythenorth>I will shortly yes :)
06:26<SpComb>I like the minimum system requirements on steam :D "Processor: Yes"
06:27<SpComb>is it just a free text field?
06:31<TrueBrain>awh, 11.2 upgrade failed .. curious in what state I will be getting the system back now :)
06:32<TrueBrain>SpComb: they suggest to fill in those fields; it is not mandatory, but they rather have that you do. I couldn't think off any sane value, so Yes was suggested :)
06:32*andythenorth waits for linker
06:35<TrueBrain>and I just retry the 11.2 upgrade .. see if a second time goes any better :D
06:36<andythenorth>michi_cc anything significant changed since last night?
06:36<andythenorth>or just tidying?
06:36<+michi_cc>No, that push was an unrelated bugfix.
06:36<andythenorth>FPS difference to master seems lower, but might just be the section of map I'm looking at
06:37<+michi_cc>So, my problem with the mouse stuff is that apparently my virtualized mouse behaves slightly different.
06:37<+michi_cc>So I need a baseline how the mouse behaves on a real system, both on my PR and on master.
06:38*andythenorth tries different parts of map
06:38<andythenorth>yeah 8652 is still much faster, maybe 50% - 100% depending what's being drawn
06:38<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Do you want to start with the PR or with master?
06:38<andythenorth>for a mouse baseline?
06:39<+michi_cc>I have a tiny change for you to do the the source and then some questions about the result :)
06:40<andythenorth>well currently 8652 is checked out and ready to build
06:40<andythenorth>so let's start there
06:40<+michi_cc>As you just compiled the PR, lets start with it. In the file src/video/cocoa/ at line 472 there a part that is "[ NSCursor arrowCursor ] : [ NSCursor clearCocoaCursor ]"
06:41<+michi_cc>Change the clearCocoaCursor to arrowCursor as well.
06:41<+michi_cc>If you then run OTTD, the system mouse cursor should stay visible.
06:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8653: Fix: [CMake] our allegro drivers use v4, so skip v5 if found
06:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8653: Fix: [CMake] our allegro drivers use v4, so skip v5 if found
06:45<TrueBrain>did not know you could use version limits with pkg-config; pretty sweet you can :)
06:46<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: VM snapshots help with that
06:46<TrueBrain>using Player, so I cannot snapshot :(
06:48<FLHerne>andythenorth: "bake stored procedures into the toolchain, so nml can just simulate providing extra vars" <- how would that differ from procedures as they exist now?
06:48<andythenorth>nml would provide them
06:48<andythenorth>instead of me
06:48<FLHerne>I see
06:48<andythenorth>e.g. things like neighbouring vehicle checks
06:49<andythenorth>there are only a few use cases for them, but we can now construct pseudo-vars
06:49<andythenorth>"it's probably a terrible idea"
06:50<andythenorth>michi_cc compiling...although...system cursor is usually visible for me anyway
06:50<andythenorth>ok compiled
06:51<andythenorth>what do you want? screen record?
06:51<andythenorth>FLHerne 'random bits from lead part of articulated vehicle' is an example case
06:52<+michi_cc>Okay, so a) start, b) set a scrolling mode that has a fixed cursor, c) scroll, d) is system cursor staying put? e) if you end scroll and then move the mouse a tiny bit, does the cursor jump?
06:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8653: Fix: [CMake] our allegro drivers use v4, so skip v5 if found
06:54<andythenorth>a, b, c) done d) no e) yes michi_cc
06:55<+michi_cc>Okay. Now it's just the same test for master instead. This time, it's line 466 to change.
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07:05<andythenorth>michi_cc a, b, c) done d) no, system cursor has a very slight jitter, especially if I move mouse fast enough, but it snaps back to same position e) n/a, system cursor snaps back to openttd cursor position
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07:05<+michi_cc>Okay, thanks. Now I have to see if I can get my VM to replicate that behaviour, otherwise testing will be painful :)
07:06<andythenorth>the behaviour at least is very stable :)
07:10<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Did you use left or right mouse scrolling, BTW?
07:12<andythenorth>RMB it seems, although I actually hold down cmd to use it
07:12<andythenorth>not sure if I configured that, been doing it for 10 years
07:13<+michi_cc>Right mouse button emulation with Cmd is the default setting I think.
07:18<+michi_cc>Ah, I need to set gaming mode to "always" to get sane mouse behaviour in VMware.
07:18<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: There's no GUI setting for game mode in Player, BTW.
07:18<TrueBrain>yeah, there are more issues with using Player :P
07:18<TrueBrain>I might upgrade :)
07:19<+michi_cc>Well, it's still there, you just need the edit the INI yourself.
07:21<TrueBrain>currently the 11.2 upgrade keeps crashing, so I need to put back a copy (manual snapshot ftw!)
07:24<+michi_cc>I'm running 10.14 as 11 felt a lot slower.
07:24<+michi_cc>I have a VM with around, too, but 10.14 just runs a lot smoother for me.
07:24<TrueBrain>just the video output is laggy as ....
07:25<+michi_cc>Excatly that is why I do the work on 10.14.
07:25<TrueBrain>well, I just want to install Steam on it to so I can check myself everything is working from time to time, honestly :)
07:26<FLHerne>TrueBrain: <- more correcting needed ;-)
07:26<TrueBrain>welcome to yesterday FLHerne ;)
07:26<FLHerne>Ok :p
07:26<TrueBrain>but we told them many times already in various of ways over the years ..
07:27<TrueBrain>it is one of the few places I gave up on
07:27<TrueBrain>I like their article
07:28<FLHerne>TrueBrain: This time they're referring to you personally, you'd think that would help :p
07:28<LordAro>find the author on twitter
07:28<TrueBrain>they already did
07:32<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Different mouse question: is that mouse stuck at top still happening with the PR?
07:32<+michi_cc>Also, I think I found the (totally silly) scrolling bug.
07:32<andythenorth>not that I could repro no
07:32<andythenorth>I tested it in full screen, no stuck that I could see
07:33<andythenorth>I might have missed it, but it was trivial to trigger previously
07:33<+michi_cc>Now I'm wondering if I should make use of the shiny new OTTD relative mouse mode instead of cursor warping.
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07:49<frosch123>iirc the relative thingie could only be decided on start-up, and not switch depending on RMB
07:50<frosch123>so it confined the mouse into the window all the time, even in windowed mode
07:50<frosch123>but maybe that was only for emscripten
07:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
07:51<+michi_cc>andythenorth: That push should fix scrolling.
07:52<+michi_cc>frosch123: TB added a relative cursor update function for emscripten, but it could also be used to avoid cursor wapring on OSX.
07:52<+michi_cc>It's not SDL relative mode or something if you're thinking of that.
08:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
08:03<+michi_cc>Eh, less "magic call" is better, let's just use relative mode. It's in its own commit, so easily backed out.
08:04<+michi_cc>orudge: Any chance you could have a look at #8652. You also wanted to check out #8518 :D
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08:58<andythenorth>michi_cc mouse scroll speed now perfect I think. I did have case where viewport remained locked to mouse movement after I released button, can't repro yet
09:00<andythenorth>ok some combo of the exact order of releasing 'cmd' key and mouse button causes it to stay locked
09:03<andythenorth>oh that's just how vanilla works too
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09:03*andythenorth never noticed before
09:03<andythenorth>michi_cc looks good so far then :D
09:04<andythenorth>get it into a nightly, let People Who Aren't Me test it
09:05<andythenorth>test it in WASM!
09:05<LordAro>pretty sure it's not used there :p
09:05<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Maybe I can fix that bug as well :)
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09:56<+michi_cc>andythenorth: What would you consider better: Dragging stops when you release Cmd, or dragging continues until you release the mouse button?
09:57<andythenorth>oof 'keys as pretend mouse buttons'
09:57<andythenorth>master behaviour is fine, dragging stops on releasing mouse
09:59<andythenorth>hmm UI yak-shaving suggestion for autoreplace GUI: either 'stop all replacements in this group' button or ctrl-click on replacements to end them
09:59*andythenorth bored of clearing out the greyed-out vehicle spam
10:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8652: [OSX] Cleanup video driver.
10:04<+michi_cc>Cursor should not get stuck anymore now.
10:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8651: Fix 0125892: Don't crash when towns upgrade road tiles during expansion
10:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8639: Add: Allow translation of "(Directory)" and "(Parent directory)"
10:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8629: Fix: [CMake] Restore 'games' as default install bindir
10:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8622: Fix 81d335b081: Use non-pulsating red highlight for coverage
10:12<TrueBrain>someone is having fun :D
10:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8643: Change: [CMake] Bump minimal version to 3.9
10:14<LordAro>well no one else was doing it
10:14<TrueBrain>you want to say something there? :P
10:15<TrueBrain>I am not slacking! I am playing modded Factorio!
10:15<LordAro>i'm playing KSP :p
10:15<TrueBrain>not sure which is worse :D
10:15<TrueBrain>(in terms of losing time)
10:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8650: Assertion failed at line 111 of D:\a\OpenTTD\OpenTTD\src\core/pool_type.hpp: index < this->first_unused
10:15<_dp_>researching competitors? ;)
10:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8651: Fix 0125892: Don't crash when towns upgrade road tiles during expansion
10:18<+glx>hmm I may update #8639, I think the remark (on IRC) about passing '..' as parameter was correct, it's silly to not include it in the string
10:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8599: On Debian-based distributions, the executable should go to /usr/games, not /usr/bin
10:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8629: Fix: [CMake] Restore 'games' as default install bindir
10:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8622: Fix 81d335b081: Use non-pulsating red highlight for coverage
10:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8643: Change: [CMake] Bump minimal version to 3.9
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10:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #8639: Add: Allow translation of "(Directory)" and "(Parent directory)"
10:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8639: Add: Allow translation of "(Directory)" and "(Parent directory)"
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10:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7744: Draft Feature: OpenGL video driver
10:41<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: If you have some SDL stuff, I can tack them onto the PR :)
10:50<TrueBrain>I haven't gotten to that yet .. hopefully this week :)
10:50<TrueBrain>Factorio is way too addicting :P
10:56<andythenorth>OpenTTD is way too addicting :P
10:56<TrueBrain>wouldn't know, haven't played it in years :)
10:56<+glx>zachtronics games are addicting :)
11:03<Wolf01>I'm watching a video about Daggerfall unity, it looks really a fine remaster, I might play it when I'll be able to sit at the pc for more than 10 minutes
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11:16<Wolf01>andythenorth: still after colours? javascript: void(0);
11:17<Wolf01>Fuck double "copy link" menu item :P
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11:18<supermop_Home_>andythenorth its cheaper than shoes or records
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11:43<snail_UES_>looks like JGR added “realistic train braking” to his patch, this sounds very interesting. Is there any documentation about how it works?
11:44<andythenorth>more likely to get an answer in discord ;)
11:49<snail_UES_>what’s that? another chat app?
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11:58<supermop_Home_>snail_UES_ i think there is a forum thread
11:58<supermop_Home_>i tried the realistic braking patch a few years ago, it is interesting
11:58<supermop_Home_>i don’t know if it is necessarily ‘fun’ but
11:59<supermop_Home_>you certainly end up with less capacity once allowing for braking distances
12:01<snail_UES_>I found it very interesting, coz I implemented braking wagons, and braking force, in my set
12:01<snail_UES_>I’d love to be able to change the distance needed for a train to stop, depending on the entire consist’s braking force
12:01<snail_UES_>also, a train should slow down a lot when negotiating steep downhill tracks
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12:02<snail_UES_>I’m looking for a forum thread (using the search function) but I can’t seem to find anything
12:03<nielsm>for realistic braking you also need look-ahead or multi-aspect signals
12:03<nielsm>(the thing that's called presignals in the real world, completely unrelated to the "presignals" invented in ttdpatch)
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>greetings from being buried under 20cm snow
12:13<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> Factorio is way too addicting :P <-- have you tried switching to dyson sphere program instead? :p
12:13<andythenorth>oof stations
12:16<andythenorth>I want to change the ground tile for a CHIPS tile
12:16<andythenorth>[perplexed emoji]
12:16<andythenorth>"it's all GRM"
12:17<snail_UES_>on another note, it feels annoying that you guys now enforced C++17 to compile OTTD
12:17<snail_UES_>not everyone has the “latest and greatest” system, and there are many more complex programs that allow the use of an older OS
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12:19<snail_UES_>what are the advantages of that?
12:20<_dp_>c++17 is much less annoying to develop in :p
12:20<frosch123>if you are refering to the win9x thing. it's not the change to c++17 that broke that, but the change to c++11
12:20<LordAro>what system are you running that doesn't have a C++17-capable compiler?
12:21<andythenorth>C++17 is what, 3 years old?
12:21<frosch123>i think it is completely acceptable to drop an os, that did not have any compiler update for it for 10 years
12:21<nielsm>if you can't run an OS made within the last 10 years I don't know what to say
12:21<nielsm>any hardware from the last 15 years can run an OS released in the last 10 years
12:21<andythenorth>oof newgrf stations are completely mad
12:22<frosch123>the os does not even have to made in the past 10 years, it's sufficient for it to be made in the past 20 years
12:22<snail_UES_>LordAro: OSX 10.12
12:22<frosch123>so, it can be literally older than openttd
12:22<snail_UES_>frosch123: my OS is not 10 years old
12:23<supermop_Home_>andythenorth i think I've mentioned this before
12:23<snail_UES_>it was developed in 2016 and you can’t tell me it’s obsolete now
12:23<+glx>we dropped 10.12 ?
12:23<andythenorth>meh accessing a GRM sprite works in one place but not another
12:23<andythenorth>10.12 is very dead glx
12:23<andythenorth>n-1 I think we do
12:23<LordAro>we've not dropped support for it
12:23<+glx>MacOS 11 is comming so yeah 10.12 is outdated
12:23<nielsm>apple is quick to obsolete things
12:23<LordAro>still 10.9+
12:24<supermop_Home_>but 96kmh tank wagons are 36KL for small and 71 for Large
12:24<snail_UES_>LordAro: but 10.12 doesn’t support C++17...
12:24<snail_UES_>so in fact it was dropped
12:24<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ rounding errors
12:24<supermop_Home_>not sure if that is intended to incentivize the small wagons
12:24<andythenorth>set them to imperial tonnes
12:24<LordAro>snail_UES_: i feel like you should be able to find a newer compiler for it
12:24<+glx>snail_UES_: only dev is impossible on 10.12, but binaries built with recent version should run on 10.12
12:24<andythenorth>there are no incentives on capacity at all, they're supposed to be identical, but integer maths supermop_Home_
12:25<frosch123>snail_UES_: out binaries are listed to run on osx 10.9
12:25<frosch123>i think, any drop in osx version is not related to c++17, but i have no idea about osx compilers
12:25<+glx>the issue is probably xcode
12:25<snail_UES_>a binary was created for OSX for JGR’s patch, but it crashes on my system (I posted the crash report on his thread)
12:26<+glx>ah not related to c++17
12:26<nielsm>you aren't going to fix that by compiling on your own
12:26<+glx>probably SSE
12:26<+glx>or some CPU flags
12:26<frosch123>TrueBrain: michi_cc: the website lists 1.10.3 as osx 10.12+, and nightly as 10.9+. do you know whether either is true?
12:27<FLHerne>snail_UES_: That might be
12:27<snail_UES_>that also happened on the previous version of JGR
12:27<snail_UES_>the same person compiled the binary, it crashed on my system
12:28<snail_UES_>then I compiled it on my own (it wasn’t requiring C++17 yet) and it worked fine
12:28<FLHerne>Definitely sounds like ^ then
12:28<FLHerne>In which case michi_cc fixed it recently
12:29<FLHerne>(in master, no idea if JGR pulled it yet)
12:30<+michi_cc>OTTD requires a recent enough compiler for C++17. Apple has chosen to tightly couple compiler, XCode and OS versions, which is why you can't build on semi-old OSX versions.
12:31<snail_UES_>I would need a newer version of XCode, but it’s not supported by 10.12
12:31<snail_UES_>is there any alternative way I can go, without upgrading my system?
12:32<FLHerne>Does "install Linux on it" count as an upgrade? :p
12:32<snail_UES_>I use my computer for remote work, so I need it to be fully functional. I can’t upgrade to a new OS only to find half of my apps stop working (as it’s always the case)
12:32<nielsm>it's not exactly news that apple likes to drop support for older OS versions and make it as difficult as possible for developers to keep supporting their older OS and hardware versions as they can
12:32<FLHerne>(probably not in battery life, by my experience)
12:32<nielsm>I would call apple a bad choice for computer if you aren't in a situation where you can keep buying a new one every few years
12:33<snail_UES_>I wouldn’t mind buying a new one, if I could keep my current apps working
12:33<snail_UES_>if I switched to Big Sur, I’d have to say goodbye to most of my apps...
12:34<+michi_cc>frosch123: It should run on 10.9+, but I don't think anybody is testing that. 10.12 is our self-given n-3 policy, but not technically enforced.
12:34<frosch123>michi_cc: ok, steam also says 10.9, wait until someone compains?
12:34<nielsm>I think the issue might be with the SDK version used causing slightly different behaviours for some things?
12:35<andythenorth>the days of keeping macs going forever are long gone
12:35<andythenorth>macs are disposable devices now, 1 year lifespan
12:36<+michi_cc>snail_UES_: The "most apps won't work" think is exactly why 10.12 is obsolete for _compiling_ OTTD. And as long as Apple couples compiler/XCode versions tightly to OSX releases, that won't change.
12:40<+glx>seems JGR includes the no-sse4 commit
12:41<+glx>since 0.40.0
12:42<+glx>snail_UES_: do vanilla nightlies work ?
12:43<snail_UES_>let me try
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12:44<snail_UES_>yes, that works
12:45<snail_UES_>the one I just downloaded is OpenTTD 20210206-master-g2c9084d48c
12:45<+glx>so in theory recent enough JGR should work too
12:46<+michi_cc>The crash you posted in the forums in inside libfreetype, which is a 3rd party library not supplied by Apple or us. I'd assume whoever made that binary didn't compile the lib in the proper way.
12:46<+glx>hmm freetype is no longer required for MacOS IIRC
12:46<+michi_cc>Most likely not with the proper version back-compatibility flags set.
12:46<snail_UES_>would you mind answering my post then?
12:46<+michi_cc>glx: Only if you approve the PR :)
12:46<+glx>oh right
12:47<+glx>I can't test it myself so
12:47*andythenorth can't decide if I love or hate the station spec
12:47<andythenorth>it's really appalling
12:47<andythenorth>but I can see how people get used to it
12:47<+michi_cc>Still, same thing then with lzo or lzma.
12:49<+michi_cc>frosch123: Steam itself is 10.11+, so the 10.9 question is basically pointless.
12:50<+glx>oh yes for macOS we set MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET: 10.9 in CI
12:50<+glx>so vcpkg does the right thing
12:50<+glx>I guess
12:52<+michi_cc>The compiler does the right thing, but yeah.
12:53*andythenorth looks for TrueBrain in these pictures
12:53<andythenorth>I like the snowplough going down a ski sloper
12:54*andythenorth needs educating about camera angel
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>is there a camera devil?
12:57<andythenorth>so how do I station?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't left my house, but there really was a lot of snow over the last 24 hours
12:57<andythenorth>I'm not saying this is gibberish
12:58<andythenorth>but I don't even know if I need prop 09 or 1A
12:58<andythenorth>CHIPS uses both
12:58<+glx>you can't do it in nml for sure
12:58<andythenorth>thanks :)
12:59<andythenorth>I have
12:59<andythenorth>which gives a ground sprite and a building
12:59<andythenorth>I need a second building sprite
13:00<andythenorth>I'm not even sure if I have a building, or 2 ground sprites
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>so, prop 1A has been around for 10 years and nobody bothered to write it properly into the specs?
13:00<andythenorth>this is all copy-paste magic
13:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause it's documented
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>but that's not "in the specs"
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>it refers to another site
13:01<andythenorth>that doc actually makes more sense than the specs
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>which may or may not be considered "canonical"
13:01<andythenorth>that doc starts to look like something more famiilar
13:02<andythenorth>familiarity with industry tiles seems to be of negative value when dealing with stations
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not in the right mindset to try to understand this
13:04<andythenorth>1A looks familiar
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>but sounds like 1A would be preferable to 09
13:04<andythenorth>it's just list of sprites, and can take values or a register number
13:04<andythenorth>then in the action 2, presumably the registers are stuffed
13:04<andythenorth>09 I can't even parse the instructions
13:05*andythenorth considers converting CHIPS to python
13:06<andythenorth>this is not fun
13:07<+michi_cc>andythenorth: It's not exactly NFO, but has pictures.
13:07<andythenorth>because converting the entire templating / compile to python is much easier than reading the docs for adding 2 sprites :P
13:07<andythenorth>michi_cc :)
13:08<supermop_Home_>wasn’t someone working on nml stations recently? i thought i saw a PR for that
13:08<andythenorth>I feel stations have never ben adopted by OpenTTD
13:08<andythenorth>they seem to be firmly TTD Patch thing
13:08<andythenorth>the main toolchain is m4nfo also
13:08<supermop_Home_>Eddi|zuHause lots of snow here too
13:08<+glx>I used stations in openttd
13:09<andythenorth>I mean the adoption of the spec :)
13:09<andythenorth>afaict, it's the preserve of pretty much one person in Germany
13:10<andythenorth>maybe it's Eddi|zuHause !
13:10<+glx>1A is openttd only BTW
13:11<supermop_Home_>still banished by GitHub...
13:11<+glx>it's weekend
13:12<andythenorth>so I wonder if yexo used 09 to test out the full range of spec (idea was to do nml stations), or if there correct cases for 1A
13:12<andythenorth>for industry tiles, there are no real cases for not using advanced
13:13<frosch123>you can write every 09 as 1A
13:13<frosch123>it's a superset
13:14*andythenorth reads the TTDP docs
13:15<andythenorth>the bounding boxes are significant here?
13:17<frosch123>there are two layouts: a single box for non-track tiles, and 2 boxes behind/in front of train
13:17<frosch123>nml should remove spritelayouts and only offer those choices that make sense :p
13:18*andythenorth seriously considers m4nfo again
13:19<frosch123>aren't you too young for that?
13:19<andythenorth>definitely worth rebuilding the whole project just to add a crane over 1 track tile
13:21<supermop_Home_>ugh i guess i should fix covered hopper truck sprites
13:21<snail_UES_>andythenorth: what’s wrong with m4nfo?
13:21<supermop_Home_>as the only feedback i get on my RVs is that the sprites are broken
13:22<andythenorth>snail_UES_ I have no idea, I haven't used it yet
13:22<andythenorth>it will probably be uniquely flawed
13:22<andythenorth>most things are
13:23<snail_UES_>nothing is perfect, but I find m4nfo’s “less is more” approach to be quite brilliant
13:25<andythenorth>well good or bad, it's the only available choice for stations
13:25<snail_UES_>not a bad choice for trains either :)
13:27<andythenorth>so stations in nml then?
13:27<andythenorth>or is it actually architecturally hard?
13:31<+glx>main issue is station layout is in action 0, while all other are action 2
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13:32<+glx>so even if syntax is the same it's not easy to plug
13:33<frosch123>i consider the tile layout harder
13:34<frosch123>a station only has 4 tile layouts, but 8 possile property values for them to set
13:34<andythenorth>I consider the docs hard enough to be a disincentive :P
13:34<frosch123>the easier option may be to increase tiles to 16 in ottd, and basically eliminate tile layouts from the station spec
13:35<frosch123>s/16/8/ difficult counting :p
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13:41<andythenorth>so what's the 41 doing
13:42<andythenorth>is that a flag or a count?
13:43*andythenorth could try and count the number of bytes
13:43<frosch123>40 is the flag, 1 is the count
13:43<andythenorth>what are the 8 tiles?
13:44*andythenorth really finds stations odd
13:44<andythenorth>"The property is variable sized, and contains the data for all 8 possible station tile types. If this property is set, the num-ent in the corresponding action 1 need not be equal to 12 (hex), it can in fact be any number, and any number of sprites can be displayed in any order."
13:44<andythenorth>so it can just be any number?
13:44<frosch123>"tiles" is what you need to define "track/non-track tile", "draw pylons" and "draw catenary"
13:45<frosch123>they are so weird that nml should/would remove them / abstract them away
13:45<andythenorth>I can't begin to understand yet :)
13:45<andythenorth>but....there are so many station sets :o
13:47<frosch123>andythenorth: sorry for distracting, but property 1A has nothing to do with tile types
13:47<frosch123>"tile layouts" and "sprite layouts" are very different things
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13:49<frosch123>what "news"?
13:50<andythenorth>I don't know :)
13:50<andythenorth>"Road routing (19 - reserved for future use)"
13:50<andythenorth>that sounds like news :)
13:50<andythenorth>"Will allow to have routing informations for road vehicles on rail stations,"
13:51<frosch123>12 year old vapour ware is not news
13:51<+michi_cc>Sounds more like wishful thinking :)
13:51<frosch123>though, is it vapour ware, if there are not even screenshots?
13:52<frosch123>i don't think there was a description of what was actually planned
13:52<andythenorth>"This property is not yet implemented"
13:53<frosch123>george requested to have rv routing for houses, so vehicles could drive through "gas station" houses and other things
13:54<frosch123>but i think that's unrelated to this station thing
14:09<andythenorth>I was reading the prop 09 docs for 1A and vice versa
14:09<andythenorth>this did not aid my understanding :P
14:10<frosch123>it's the same as for industries, just the role of sprites in a spriteset and spritesets is transposed
14:11<frosch123>in industry layouts you reference spritesets, and each spriteset contains sprites per construction stage
14:11<frosch123>for stations you reference sprites inside a spriteset, and you pick different spritesets per amount of cargo waiting
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14:17<andythenorth>grfcodec fails on this
14:17<andythenorth>Error on sprite 6465.
14:17<andythenorth>the offsets to the sprites are wrong, but I don't see why that doesn't compile anyway
14:17<andythenorth>based on
14:19<andythenorth>I don't know if the comments are reliable, I'm just copying them
14:23<andythenorth>the flags are all clear I think
14:31<andythenorth>\dx8000842D is the offset to the sprite, with extra flags?
14:33<frosch123>your gist looks fine to me
14:34<andythenorth>grfcodec disagrees
14:34<frosch123>i assume you mean nforenum?
14:35<andythenorth>not actually sure, make masks who's emitting the error
14:35<andythenorth>let's see
14:36<andythenorth>yeah it's frigging nforenum
14:37<andythenorth>NFORenum trunk r994M - Copyright (C) 2004-2013 by Dale McCoy
14:37<frosch123>i think the advancted layouts were the last thing that were added to nforenum
14:38<frosch123>after that even yexo did not bother about nforenum anymore
14:38<andythenorth>I skipped renum and tried grfcodec
14:38<andythenorth>sprite 6465 is broken though
14:38<andythenorth>'Unexpected sprite, disabling'
14:38<andythenorth>says OpenTTD
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14:39<frosch123>that means you miscounted in action 1, 5 or A
14:39<frosch123>there was a realsprite where a pseudosprite was expected
14:40<andythenorth>I think I see it
14:42*andythenorth forgot to maintain realsprite counts in action 1
14:42<andythenorth>all nfo is forgotten :)
14:47<andythenorth>it's working :)
14:47*andythenorth so tempted to re-template it with python
14:49<frosch123>time for pynfo :p
14:51<andythenorth>I have been wondering about a python-based higher level language :P
14:51<andythenorth>probably a mad idea
14:52<frosch123>i am not sure whether pynfo or pynml makes a big difference
14:52<frosch123>if you template everything anyway
14:52<andythenorth>lot less housekeeping to template with nml :)
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15:08<TrueBrain>michi_cc: remind me I have to make a bug ticket about the Win32 now taking a bit too long with its Sleep()s :)
15:08<TrueBrain>I keep forgetting to detail what is going on :P
15:08<TrueBrain>(and I have no clue how to solve it myself)
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15:23<+glx>oh I remember reading something about win32 and sleep
15:24<TrueBrain>yeah, michi_cc had a nice link
15:24<TrueBrain>sleep of 1ms took .. 60+ms I believe :)
15:25<+glx>yeah default granularity changed
15:27<andythenorth>stations :)
15:27*andythenorth has bounding box issues
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15:28<andythenorth>ground is being drawn over trains
15:29<andythenorth>fixed that, now the sprites flicker instead :)
15:30<frosch123>ground are ground, they have no bounding boxes
15:33<andythenorth>spec suggest I can stack groundsprites
15:33<andythenorth>which is what I want to do
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15:33<andythenorth>literal 80
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15:34<andythenorth>this spec is so hard to read :)
15:35<LordAro>isn't the station spec what broke Yexo last time round?
15:35<andythenorth>I need to lose all those bounding boxes
15:35<andythenorth>e.g. line 11 and friends
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15:37<andythenorth>maybe advanced layouts can't do that
15:38*andythenorth hasn't written one for years, it's all abstracted in FIRS :P
15:38<andythenorth>z extent is 0 for groundsprites?
15:39<andythenorth>"Skip bounding box including child sprites" looks plausible?
15:40<frosch123>replace the "00 00 00 10 10 \b0" with "00 00 80"
15:40<frosch123>(i think)
15:41<frosch123>nah, the "skip" thing is for conditional sprites. you probably don't want that here
15:44<andythenorth>appears to work
15:45*andythenorth wonders how yexo put the bufferstops in
15:45<andythenorth>maybe with a register
15:46<andythenorth>hmm no, it's tile switching
15:46<andythenorth>40 different layous for combinations of buffer / no buffer, and cargo sprites
15:46<andythenorth>layouts *
15:47<andythenorth>2021, the year andythenorth learns stations? :P
15:47<andythenorth>now I want to animate some harbour cranes moving
16:07<andythenorth>hmm do I relearn C pre-processor?
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause>for what purpose?
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16:47<frosch123>i like that guy on reddit, who doesn't know what "windows 9x" is
16:50<frosch123>LordAro: now even you can feel old :p
16:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause for the purpose of extending CHIPS grf
16:52<andythenorth>I need to write something like this, but different
16:52<andythenorth>I'm not sure that I should be doing this voluntarily though, it seems like a poor life choice
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17:55<jgx>TrueBrain - thank you. Purged allegro5, installed allegro4, compiled 20210207-master-gaf0acc9a75 successfully.
17:55<jgx>The train is fine.
17:56<jgx>Distro: Linux Mint 19.2 (ID_LIKE=ubuntu)
18:05<TrueBrain>In the meantime I fixed it too in master .. it will no longer try allegro5 ;)
18:05<TrueBrain>Tnx for checking back in !
18:05<_dp_>is there any point in keeping allegro at all?
18:05<_dp_>last time I tried it was pretty broken
18:05<TrueBrain>Last time the argument was: it still works
18:06<TrueBrain>So shrug .. I was not allowed to remove it :p
18:07<TrueBrain>But someone also promised to pick it up again .. he never did .. so there is that :p
18:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt opened pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
18:14<milek7>_dp_: it seems to work fine?
18:15<_dp_>there were some issues with it, I don't remember now
18:16<_dp_>but I couldn't rly play with it
18:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
18:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 commented on pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
18:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on pull request #8654: Fix: [Emscripten] Only lock pointer on right click
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 08 00:00:29 2021