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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-02-17

---Logopened Wed Feb 17 00:00:42 2021
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00:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
00:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
00:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtW
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01:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMmk
01:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac closed pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
01:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac reopened pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
01:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
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03:15<Wolf01>o/
03:24<andythenorth>yo
03:24<andythenorth>why have we removed very flat maps from arctic anyway?
03:24<andythenorth>people are wrong on the internet, but I can't explain to them why
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>because forests
03:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on pull request #8638: Feature: [GS] Allow non-question type windows to have no buttons https://git.io/JtMGW
03:26<andythenorth>I think it's actually because snowline, I think the forests might be misleading
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes. the forests depend on snowline
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>you need above-snowline areas for forests, and below-snowline areas for farms
03:27<andythenorth>that argument is true, but doesn't carry
03:27<andythenorth>because it can be solved by just putting in ever more red warning dialogues
03:27<andythenorth>to explain how industries work
03:27<andythenorth>which is what the playerbase are being asked to ask for
03:27<Eddi|zuHause>we had those, people didn't understand them (because they weren't very clear)
03:28<andythenorth>it's because they weren't long enough, or detailed enough, and don't fill enough of the screen
03:29*andythenorth is old and should know better than 'internet'
03:29<andythenorth>oops
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03:30<TrueBrain>I like that people are worried about removing an "OK" button, not seeing that most of the windows you get presented already had none :)
03:31<TrueBrain>it is like complaining there is a small hole in a door, while there are no windows in the house at all
03:31<LordAro>am i remembering correctly that you can close windows with a right-click?
03:31<LordAro>or is it pressing escape?
03:31<LordAro>or both?
03:31<TrueBrain>I believe it is a setting?
03:32<TrueBrain>OpenTTD has so many hidden interactions, I tend to ignore it :P
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>some error windows you can close with a right click
03:33<nielsm>yes transient popups (regular errors and such) close with right click
03:34<nielsm>I think they also close with spacebar (like news windows do)
03:34<TrueBrain>so for me a more interesting question is: do GS windows without a button close on the same interactions
03:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem with making the popups more detailed is that a) they become too big, and b) you're opening up more and more corner cases that you didn't cover properly.
03:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8638: Feature: [GS] Allow non-question type windows to have no buttons https://git.io/JtMZC
03:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8638: Feature: [GS] Allow non-question type windows to have no buttons https://git.io/JtMZ4
03:37<TrueBrain>if they complain that all windows should have an OK button, that it something I can get behind
03:37<TrueBrain>but only complaining GSes can now create one without button .. that is just zooming in on a small detail in the UI :P
03:44<TrueBrain>not enough diskspace to install XCode
03:44<TrueBrain>lol
03:45<TrueBrain>25GB available
03:45<TrueBrain>how is that not enough?
03:46<TrueBrain>it needs ~70GB
03:46<TrueBrain>lol
03:47<Wolf01>About forests and snowline, it would be cool if on superflat the snowline is capped at max height-1 so you always get snow, ad if you don't want snow then play temperate :P
03:49<andythenorth>funny idea :D
03:51<andythenorth>those terrain names, wtf even are they?
03:52<andythenorth>what is 'very flat' supposed to do?
03:52<TrueBrain>OpenTTD has many windows where someone went overboard by presenting the user with all kinds of toggles ans switches
03:52<TrueBrain>where it feels more like you get access to the developers settings
03:52<TrueBrain>instead of players settings
03:53<TrueBrain>Terrain Generation is one of them :)
03:53<TrueBrain>I still want to try to make a "basic" version, with an "advanced" button, which allows you to configure stuff with more detail, but with less "labels"
03:53<TrueBrain>so instead of "very flat", just say: height modifier 0.2
03:53<TrueBrain>or what-ever
04:03<Wolf01>Look at minecraft worldgen options :P
04:04<TrueBrain>rather, look at Factorio
04:06<andythenorth>look at Warcraft 1
04:06<andythenorth>there aren't any worldgen, it just cycles about 16 maps, and each map has about 4 town locations
04:06<TrueBrain>in my opinion, it is just a wrong idea to give all users so much detailed power over worldgen
04:06<TrueBrain>we really know better how to make good playable maps for most people, especially new players
04:07<andythenorth>there are many awesome heightmaps :P
04:07<andythenorth>but who ever plays a heightmap?
04:07<TrueBrain>more people than I expected, if I believe Discord
04:07<andythenorth>yeah, and everybody has switched to JGRPP
04:07<andythenorth>and is building detailed savegames using precision timetabling of real-world networks
04:08<TrueBrain>there is a pretty active heightmap playerbase, as it turns out
04:08<TrueBrain>which is nice to know
04:08<andythenorth>yeah but how do I start a heightmap game?
04:08<TrueBrain>someone even made a bunch of scripts to automate a lot
04:08<TrueBrain>now you are just trying to be mean ;)
04:08<andythenorth>'New game' doesn't have any heightmap option.
04:08<TrueBrain>finding a reason to bitch :)
04:08<Wolf01>[10:06:23] <TrueBrain> in my opinion, it is just a wrong idea to give all users so much detailed power over worldgen <- that's why I said to look at minecraft one, based on which preset you select you can specify only some options which that preset let you define
04:08<andythenorth>there are some awesome maps in the discord dev yes
04:08<TrueBrain>Wolf01: and that is why I suggest Factorio, as it is a bit more in between :)
04:09<andythenorth>heightmaps *
04:09<andythenorth>but heightmaps are tacked onto title screen like an afterthought
04:10<Wolf01>Yes, but F sets the values and you can still change everything, which is no different than what is already on OpenTTD
04:10<TrueBrain>Wolf01: I do not agree; their presets are awesome, give you minor control
04:10<TrueBrain>but you can also go all-out and fiddle with every detail if you so like
04:10<TrueBrain>I think that works for OpenTTD, as the first works for 90% of the playerbase
04:10<TrueBrain>and the second works for 10%
04:11<TrueBrain>there will always be a group that wants to say exactly this and that .. and I am fine with that
04:11<TrueBrain>just not by showing it to most of the people :)
04:11<Wolf01>Maybe I should look better at their presets, the last time I generated a map on F it was on beta
04:11<TrueBrain>in that case, yes, you should :)
04:12<TrueBrain>security questions of which the answers cannot be more than 32 chars
04:12<TrueBrain>wtf Apple, wtf
04:13*andythenorth reading https://wiki.factorio.com/Map_generator
04:13<TrueBrain>I would hide the "advanced" stuff by default btw
04:13<TrueBrain>but that is just me
04:14<andythenorth>we ever going to add more climates? (pls say no)
04:14*andythenorth considers the settings being modal to the climate
04:14<TrueBrain>wait, you need to fill in a CC these days for an Apple ID?
04:14<TrueBrain>wtf?
04:14<andythenorth>'lol Apple'
04:15<andythenorth>'mistakes were made'
04:16*andythenorth has taken a week off work, normal service will resume next week
04:16<TrueBrain>so how to download xcode in that case .. ugh
04:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8638: Feature: [GS] Allow non-question type windows to have no buttons https://git.io/JtMcE
04:20<TrueBrain>w00p, turns out I already had an account made years ago .. and that doesn't require all the blabla :P
04:20<TrueBrain>andythenorth: regarding more "climates", no, but more presets would be nice
04:20<TrueBrain>that spices things up :)
04:20<TrueBrain>"small island", "huge hills", etc
04:23<andythenorth>we already do 'slightly modal' controls by turning snowline UI control off for other climates
04:24<andythenorth>if each climate had specific controls, we could offer meaningful presets, and some specific tuning options
04:25<TrueBrain>I would even go so far that map size is part of the preset .. so you can have a "quick game" (256x256) preset, or a "play with your friends" (1024x1024) preset
04:25<TrueBrain>and I just imagine it very simple: 4 buttons to select climate, single dropdown with presets
04:25<TrueBrain>bottom row reads: "Customize"
04:25<TrueBrain>which brings you to another UI where you can control every aspect :P
04:25<andythenorth>'control'
04:26<TrueBrain>and presets are per climate, ofc
04:26<andythenorth>'control' https://www.synthesizers.com/learn/patchanywhere_500.jpg
04:27<TrueBrain>as example, I can image in temperate, you can say: "near the beach" or "in the mountains"
04:27<andythenorth>"The Freedom to Patch Anywhere
04:27<andythenorth>massive patching In a modular synthesizer, you can patch anything to anywhere. Don't worry, nothing will break if you do it wrong. In fact, there is no wrong, but not everything you patch will be musically useful, that's up to you to decide."
04:27<TrueBrain>which gives more water yes/no
04:27<andythenorth>we could even...allow choosing heightmaps from new game window :P
04:27<andythenorth>imagine
04:27*andythenorth crazy talk
04:28<TrueBrain>not constructive way of saying that ;) But yes, with a preview :)
04:28<TrueBrain>anyway, all that is not going to happen for 1.11 :)
04:28<TrueBrain>I do want to experiment with it a bit for 1.12, if I have the time
04:28<TrueBrain>I have more ideas for some UIs, to make them a bit more new-player-friendly
04:29<TrueBrain>but time is a valuable resource
04:29<TrueBrain>and people with pitchforks in their hand, instead of being constructive (not you andythenorth , referring to other people :P), are not contributing to how you divide those resources :D
04:30<andythenorth>time!
04:31<andythenorth>you can't buy more of it
04:32<andythenorth>but you can expend it playing Warcraft 1 from GOG
04:32*andythenorth has been busy click on orcs
04:33<TrueBrain>talk dirty to me
04:33<TrueBrain>I am install XCode
04:33<TrueBrain>not sure what I have to think about that
04:35<andythenorth>you have to think "this will ask for updates often, and (other peoples') security policy says they have to be installed immediately, but they usually break the build, surely that's a problem for all 3 points of the infosec triangle?"
04:35<andythenorth>like...how we will patch emerging CVEs in prod if all dev machines can't build?
04:36<andythenorth>oh wait, your world is not my world :P
04:36<TrueBrain>there are so many things I would like to say about what you just said; instead, I am just going to watch XCode install :)
04:36<andythenorth>better for all of us
04:37<andythenorth>annoyingly GOG doesn't have a mac edition of Warcraft 2
04:37<TrueBrain>I like how my servers-listing "change" seems to be effective .. I should PR this soon, instead of illegally pushing my branch to production ..
04:38<TrueBrain>and yes, I pushed a dev-image to production
04:38<TrueBrain>I DID THAT
04:38<andythenorth>don't tell the sysadmin
04:38<TrueBrain>he was hella pissed, I tell you
04:38<TrueBrain>the CISO also had a word with me
04:39<andythenorth>funny civilisation we've built eh
04:39*andythenorth wonders sometimes if it could all just be better
04:39<andythenorth>but then...people
04:40<TrueBrain>corporate greed ... what can you do!
04:45<TrueBrain>wow, running macOS in a VM drags my host system down too
04:45<TrueBrain>that is annoying
04:50<_dp_>I kinda feel that whole errors/news systems needs an overhaul
04:50<_dp_>not sure how exactly though, still looking for ideas
04:51<_dp_>but current one is pretty much useless
04:51<andythenorth>red dot notifications!
04:51<_dp_>like, for example, wsywg building can get rid of most building errors: https://i.imgur.com/SqNHvQ4.png
04:53<TrueBrain>the current system is very 1994 :)
04:54<andythenorth>it was revolutionary then
04:54<andythenorth>the TTD UI was better than many desktop OSes
04:54<andythenorth>time has not been kind
04:55<TrueBrain>I think it is awesome for what it did
04:55<TrueBrain>but indeed, we nowedays are used to other interactions
04:56<TrueBrain>which makes the question .. do you adjust, or do you "keep the old feeling"
04:59<_dp_>there are better ways to express "feeling" than bad ui :p
05:00<TrueBrain>hmm .. how do I build OpenTTD on macOS
05:00<TrueBrain>it cloned it for me
05:00<TrueBrain>but .. it refuses to open the folder now :D
05:00<LordAro>_dp_: very neat
05:03<andythenorth>refuses? :P
05:03<TrueBrain>yup .. get a nice error if I try to
05:03<TrueBrain>guess XCode doesn't know CMake ..
05:03<TrueBrain>stupid
05:10<TrueBrain>C compiler identification is unknown
05:10<TrueBrain>well, that is not helping
05:11<TrueBrain>andythenorth: how do you do this?
05:12<LordAro>keyboard flailing
05:12<andythenorth>I have a cmake in /usr/local/bin/cmake
05:13<andythenorth>not sure how it got there
05:13<TrueBrain>owh, it was xcode that was being weird
05:13<TrueBrain>brew broke it
05:13<TrueBrain>I unbroke it
05:13<andythenorth>I try to circumvent actual XCode
05:13<andythenorth>but it's the easiest way to get clang etc
05:14<TrueBrain>boy, this is not going to be a quick compile I tjink ...
05:14<TrueBrain>:D
05:14<TrueBrain>I like "cmake --build ." command
05:14<TrueBrain>works on all OSes :)
05:15<TrueBrain>also avoids me understanding MSVC, for example :)
05:23<TrueBrain>okay, my patch seems to work fine on macOS
05:23<TrueBrain>wow, FF is quick ... despite being in a VM
05:23<TrueBrain>damn, the macOS video driver is fast
05:24<TrueBrain>even zoomed-out I hit 60fps just fine (and a simulation rate on FF of 400+)
05:24<TrueBrain>empty map, to be clear
05:25<TrueBrain>right, let's see what michi_cc found as issue with std::chrono .. as I am hitting all the deadlines fine, so I wonder how master looks/feels :D
05:27<TrueBrain>macOS in my VM is quicker in rendering than SDL via WSL ..... lol?
05:28<TrueBrain>its even faster than Win32 video driver
05:29<TrueBrain>graphics rendering takes so much less time
05:29<TrueBrain>interesting
05:30<LordAro>i love how it turns out opengl is entirely unnecessary
05:30<TrueBrain>for macOS, it is
05:30<TrueBrain>for the other two, it is very much needed
05:30<TrueBrain>but I think after that, all 3 OSes are on-par with each other
05:32<TrueBrain>okay, my PR on macOS makes the mouse tail its own tail
05:32<TrueBrain>which is hilarious to see :D
05:33<TrueBrain>ah, no, that is VMWare
05:34-!-Flygon [~Flygon@2001:44b8:411e:4e00:cd80:8bd1:42f1:7f3a] has quit [Quit: A toaster's basically a soldering iron designed to toast bread]
05:34<TrueBrain>macOS already uses OpenGL in the backend
05:34<TrueBrain>at least, I am getting OpenGL errors :P
05:37<TrueBrain>andythenorth: how do you feel about testing some native macOS for me today? :P
05:37<andythenorth>yup
05:37<andythenorth>I feel
05:37<TrueBrain>https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD/tree/video-performance <- I could really use an opinion if that makes it better or worse on macOS
05:37<TrueBrain>both normal game, how the mouse reacts, but also FF speeds
05:38<TrueBrain>it runs the GUI on a fixed 60fps
05:39<TrueBrain>git fetch https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD video-performance && git checkout FETCH_HEAD
05:39<TrueBrain>in case you don't know that :)
05:42<andythenorth>saves me knowing that thanks :)
05:42<andythenorth>outsourcing knowing things ftw
05:43<andythenorth>soon it will be time to say 'slow linking is slow' :)
05:44<andythenorth>I think it's just because it doesn't report progress, it _looks_ slow :P
05:44<TrueBrain>if this works, I can abstract the mainloop of all video drivers .. which will be interesting :P
05:45<TrueBrain>allegro driver is faster than SDL
05:45<TrueBrain>some things are just funny :)
05:46<TrueBrain>Allegro + FF == 1 second -> 2 game months
05:46<TrueBrain>(empty map)
05:47<andythenorth>so far so good
05:47<andythenorth>it's hard to judge, but the cursor never seems to lag now
05:48<TrueBrain>good; I was hoping that would fix that ;)
05:48<TrueBrain>how does the framerate window look?
05:48<TrueBrain>are you hitting 33.33 simulation rate, and 60.00 graphics?
05:49<andythenorth>there's a bit of jitter so it's bouncing 1 or 2 decimal places either side of those numbers
05:49<TrueBrain>yeah, like 33.34 etc
05:49<andythenorth>but otherwise yes, and stable
05:49<TrueBrain>good; how is FF?
05:51<andythenorth>very dependent on what's in the viewport
05:51<TrueBrain>ofc, that is normal
05:51<andythenorth>if I go to map corner, full animation off, it's 28-32x
05:51<TrueBrain>but while FF is on, the graphics stays at 60.0-ish? And mouse etc reacts normal?
05:51<TrueBrain>only 30x? Damn, I get more in my VM :P
05:51<andythenorth>yes graphics is 60-ish
05:52<andythenorth>is your VM driving a hi-dpi screen?
05:52<TrueBrain>no :D
05:52<TrueBrain>but drawing should have far less influence on the FF now
05:52<TrueBrain>can you edit your openttd.cfg to read: [gui] <newline> refresh_rate = 30 ?
05:52<andythenorth>ok
05:52<TrueBrain>(it should already have a refresh_rate entry, so search for that)
05:53<andythenorth>ugh this is horrible :)
05:53<TrueBrain>much more laggy, your mouse, I assume?
05:53<andythenorth>yup
05:54<TrueBrain>yeah, so you are really used to 60Hz :D
05:54<andythenorth>it's very hard to define, but the difference is qualitative
05:54<TrueBrain>which, ones you are used to, is hard to get unused to :P
05:54<andythenorth>the 30hz is much more like playing recent vanilla master
05:54<TrueBrain>my screens run on 144Hz .. when you start with that, you don't notice it really
05:54<andythenorth>the mouse runs subtly behind
05:54<TrueBrain>but after a year, doing 60 or 30Hz is ... ugh
05:54<TrueBrain>so I get what you mean :)
05:54<andythenorth>official binaries run more like the 60hz
05:54<TrueBrain>yeah, there is some mouse cheating going on
05:54<TrueBrain>so release builds etc run smoother
05:55<TrueBrain>just completely unpredictable
05:55<TrueBrain>(they do not claim the time, but if it is there, it is given)
05:55<TrueBrain>now it claims the time :)
05:55<andythenorth>I build release, but the recent stack of changes (the one's that improved mac FPS by factor 10) made mouse worse
05:55<TrueBrain>ah, yeah, okay
05:55<TrueBrain>so my PR corrects that again?
05:55<andythenorth>yes
05:55<TrueBrain>good
05:55<andythenorth>whilst retaining factor 10
05:55<andythenorth>possibly slightly improving it even
05:56<andythenorth>might be imagining that, there are no real benchmarks
05:56<TrueBrain>orudge: if you would have some time, I would also love to know if https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD/tree/video-performance improves things for you :) (just to be sure I don't screw up M1 etc :P)
05:56<TrueBrain>if you want improvements, change refresh_rate to 144 :P
05:56<TrueBrain>or 74
05:56<TrueBrain>depends in your screen honestly
05:57<andythenorth>my mac can't quite hold 144
05:57<andythenorth>it's dropping to 134 or so quite often
05:57<andythenorth>but eh
05:57<TrueBrain>but your mouse should be even smoother :P
05:58<andythenorth>'smooth'
05:58*andythenorth wonders what the display runs at
05:59<TrueBrain>in Display of configuration you can see this
05:59<TrueBrain>hmm, no, not anymore
05:59<TrueBrain>you used to see this there :P
05:59<andythenorth>probably 60hz
06:00<TrueBrain>I believe most macs are 60Hz indeed
06:00<TrueBrain>I was thinking they already were using 72 or 74Hz
06:00<TrueBrain>but I seem to be wrong
06:00<andythenorth>specs say 60
06:01<andythenorth>let's see what hidpi rendering does with this
06:02<andythenorth>yeah the game can't hold 60fps at hidpi
06:02<andythenorth>nowhere near
06:02<TrueBrain>that is sad
06:03<TrueBrain>I have yet to write code that ensures simulation speed wins from fps, but that means with high dpi that would always kick in :P
06:03<andythenorth>trying to run hidpi on macs would be a bold move
06:03<andythenorth>it drops from 60fps to 30fps during any map movement
06:04<andythenorth>and if full animation is on, with any area of sea in viewport, fps drops to 25
06:04<TrueBrain>loading in sprites, I think
06:04<TrueBrain>oef
06:05<andythenorth>same area of sea, same game, with allow_hidpi = false, 60fps
06:05<TrueBrain>well, it draws 4 times as much
06:05<andythenorth>macs don't run games in hidpi
06:05<TrueBrain>so I can imagine that impacting performance :)
06:06<andythenorth>I am quite -1 to shipping hidpi=true as default for 1.11
06:06<andythenorth>but I won't start a forum poll :)
06:06<TrueBrain>talk it over with orudge and michi_cc I would say :)
06:06<TrueBrain>you three are our OSX experts :D
06:06<andythenorth>"m1, probably fine"
06:06<andythenorth>I still haven't put the build tools on the m1
06:06<andythenorth>not my idea of fun :)
06:07<TrueBrain>so don't :)
06:07<TrueBrain>anyway, tnx for testing andythenorth , good to know this has a similar effect on macOS as the other targets
06:07<TrueBrain>means I can unify the video-driver a tiny bit :D
06:07<andythenorth>so glad to see these improvements :)
06:08<andythenorth>now if we could just find a way to do palette animation, since GPUs dropped it...
06:08<andythenorth>or so I was told about 7 years ago
06:08<milek7>opengl?
06:08<_dp_>lol, tree growth is silly on that uber-ff
06:08<milek7>I think opengl does palette animation in shader?
06:10*andythenorth learning about fragment shaders and other opengl words
06:10<_dp_>TrueBrain, tried your branch as well, is it a known thing that fps seems to cap simulation rate?
06:10<andythenorth>_dp_ see parent topic: trees are silly
06:10<_dp_>like, sim rate changes when I zoom out
06:11<_dp_>on ff ofc
06:13<andythenorth>_dp_ that's not new? :)
06:13<andythenorth>I get same result, but always this way no?
06:13<TrueBrain>_dp_: depends on what you mean with "cap"
06:14<TrueBrain>but yes, if there is a lot to draw, drawing claims time, which means simulation rate goes down
06:14<TrueBrain>this is already the case in master, but now you can see this happening :)
06:14<TrueBrain>and given my branch draws twice as often
06:14<TrueBrain>impacts that sooner
06:14<_dp_>both go from 60 zoomed in to 40
06:14<_dp_>though yeah, makes sense
06:14<_dp_>also it crashed...
06:15<TrueBrain>but, there are two things here: OpenGL will make drawing faster, so that is going to help
06:15<TrueBrain>but also, I want to make code that give priority to simulation
06:15<TrueBrain>so it simply stops drawing as often
06:15<TrueBrain>but that is TODO :)
06:15<TrueBrain>although on FF I am not sure what is best .. possibly on FF the refresh-rate should go down to 30 in that case
06:16<TrueBrain>where in non-FF it should go down to like 10 or so
06:16<TrueBrain>dunno yet
06:16<_dp_>this happended when I tried to unmaximize it: https://imgur.com/a/hYyQpT4
06:16<_dp_>can't replicate though
06:16<_dp_>and no other info, it just closed
06:16<_dp_>weird
06:16<TrueBrain>I haven't seen those errors in a long long long long time :)
06:17<TrueBrain>if you can replicate it, let me know; but possibly this was just X11 barking :)
06:17<andythenorth>this is more fun that writing nml docs eh :)
06:18<_dp_>TrueBrain, yeah, I can, it happens when I unmaximize window on fast forward
06:18<TrueBrain>mind testing with master too?
06:19<milek7>happens on master too
06:19<TrueBrain>as I can maximize and unmaximize all I want, it just keeps on trucking :D
06:19<TrueBrain>just often fails to get in the right resolution
06:19<TrueBrain>that is funny
06:20<TrueBrain>pretty sure I have an idea what is going wrong there
06:20<TrueBrain>well, I am sure I have an idea
06:20<TrueBrain>so that is a really silly sentence :D
06:20*andythenorth tests that on mac for completeness, but eh, completely different subsystem?
06:22<TrueBrain>let me randomly disable a line of code to see if that improves the situation for me ...
06:23<TrueBrain>_dp_: video/sdl2_v.cpp, around line 324, can you disable GetAailableVideoMode line, and try again?
06:23<TrueBrain>just comment out that line
06:24<_dp_>ok, happens on master but not on beta
06:24<_dp_>I'll check that line now
06:27<TrueBrain>hmm, the problem I was having disappeared now anyway :P
06:27<TrueBrain>owh, wait, I was testing SDL1, oops
06:27<TrueBrain>found a bug in SDL1 :P
06:28<_dp_>nope, still happens with that line commented
06:28<TrueBrain>and if you comment out line 328, the SetWindowSize?
06:30<LordAro>_dp_: i've seen error messages like that if i've updated the graphics driver but not rebooted
06:30<LordAro>though if it's actually initialised itself, probably not the cause here
06:30<_dp_>I just rebooted today so shoudn't be an issue :p
06:31<_dp_>still crashes withouot SetWindowSize
06:32<TrueBrain>too bad; those lines of code in the SDL driver are a bit weird :P
06:32<TrueBrain>will see if I can reproduce it in my Linux VM
06:33<TrueBrain>yippie, I can
06:34<TrueBrain>funny, means that the Windows X11 server allows what-ever is causing this just fine :D
06:34<milek7>it might just not use XShm
06:35<TrueBrain>blegh, I hate it when small changes cause a full rebuild of OpenTTD
06:35<TrueBrain>takes for-ever
06:35<_dp_>ok, it happens on normal speed as well, but not if game is paused
06:36<_dp_>doesn't seem to happen on title screen though %)
06:37<milek7>given it only happens on ffwd, it maybe tries to submit too large image after window is resized but before resize event is processed?
06:38<_dp_>not only ffwd, it can happen on normal speed as well, just mb less likely
06:38<TrueBrain>I will bisect and find the cause, no worries :)
06:39<_dp_>though for small games only on ffwd
06:40<TrueBrain>possibly I introduced this with the SDL cleanup, and some bit is now falling over differently .. I can reproduce it, so it will be fine :)
06:40<TrueBrain>just bisects takes for ever it is insists on recompiling every time :P
06:48<TrueBrain>not really sure what triggers a full rebuild ..
06:48<TrueBrain>feels like we have some dependency a bit wrong in CMake
06:50<_dp_>just lang changes are probably enough to force full rebuild
06:50<TrueBrain>hmm, I guess that is the cause I am experiencing, yes
06:50<TrueBrain>annoying, yes
06:50<TrueBrain>:D
06:52<TrueBrain>bisecting blames an OSX patch :P
06:52<_dp_>haha, everything is Apple's fault :p
06:54<TrueBrain>and of course I first need to recompile everything
06:54<TrueBrain>but yeah, a change that was hidden in an OSX-only PR
06:54<TrueBrain>makes changes for all drivers :D
06:55<TrueBrain>who approved that PR anyway?!
06:55<TrueBrain>what a shitty developer is that, just approving that without testing it on other drivers ..
06:56<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/8906e9e0fd6dc7bd64f9ad2c633da6f110dbf921 seems to be the cause
06:57<TrueBrain>(and I reviewed it, to be clear, that is why I can call myself shit :P)
06:57<TrueBrain>well, lunch first, looking at why this breaks it after :P
06:57<TrueBrain>owh, no, it crashes before that too
06:57<TrueBrain>lol .. back to bisecting ...
07:12<@orudge>TrueBrain: tested it on Intel MBP, seems fine in that I am able to get 60fps most of the time - if zoomed out fully, then it does drop (HiDPI here)
07:12<@orudge>Will test on M1 (which is not HiDPI, as I only have a Mac Mini plugged into a 1080p screen)
07:12<TrueBrain>does it feel better or worse?
07:13<TrueBrain>(lovely non-factual question :D)
07:16<@orudge>I'll be honest, I can't really answer that one way or the other. It seems much the same either way. Obviously the sim rate is considerably faster in ffwd compared to the previous version.
07:17<@orudge>In an empty game, I'm hitting 9999fps sim rate using the Intel build on M1 (because I haven't built it on my M1 natively), with 60fps graphics rate - no hidpi here
07:19<@orudge>Sorry, possibly not the most helpful :) But it doesn't seem to make things worse for me
07:19<TrueBrain>that is very helpful :)
07:19<TrueBrain>not a regression, check
07:19<TrueBrain>improves FF speed, check
07:19<TrueBrain>no mention of weird mouse behaviour, check
07:20<TrueBrain>tnx a lot orudge :)
07:20<TrueBrain>it was reported std::chrono made things worse for macOS, but both our users don't notice it, so I guess we are good :)
07:35<TrueBrain>_dp_: found it! https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/52317bb7df6d153ec332e5403ef75cb7bc86b8f6 :)
07:35<TrueBrain>nobody understood what it was doing
07:35<TrueBrain>but it prevents a crash with X11 :P
07:39<LordAro>lol
07:41<TrueBrain>I wonder what happens here exactly .. as that line still feels like a hack
07:42<supermop_Home_>yo
07:42<TrueBrain>ah, random forum threads might give a clue ... X11 doesn't like it if you update rects outside the window
07:43<TrueBrain>so that is why that line prevents the problem
07:43<TrueBrain>explains why unmaximize is the issue
07:43<TrueBrain>and also why not always
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07:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8684: Fix 52317bb7: [SDL2] ensure we don't try to blit out of bounds https://git.io/JtMzR
07:50<TrueBrain>_dp_: happy you found it before 1.11 :D
07:51<TrueBrain>and now it has a proper comment explaining why it is there :) Totally makes sense ... could not come up with that based on the old comment :P
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08:00<_dp_>lol
08:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge approved pull request #8684: Fix 52317bb7: [SDL2] ensure we don't try to blit out of bounds https://git.io/JtMgk
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08:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8684: Fix 52317bb7: [SDL2] ensure we don't try to blit out of bounds https://git.io/JtMzR
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08:26<TrueBrain>if you exit the game during landscape generation, the generation is not aborted :D
08:26<TrueBrain>but screen drawing stops
08:27<TrueBrain>so you have to wait till it finishes :P
09:05<andythenorth>I refuse!
09:05<andythenorth>I want to draw soone!
09:06<andythenorth>sooner*
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09:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8680: Several improvements to SDL2 video driver https://git.io/JtMrm
09:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Improvements for all video drivers https://git.io/Jt1ur
09:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and default to 60fps https://git.io/Jt1ur
09:44<TrueBrain>found a better name for the PR :)
09:45<TrueBrain>oops, a word fell off :P
09:45<TrueBrain>okay, the result of this PR is much better than I could have hoped for
09:46<TrueBrain>did not expect such improvements were possible on a 17 year old game with such little code changes :D
09:54<milek7>> Mostly, on SDL it takes 5ms to draw a frame.
09:54<milek7>wait, where?
09:54<milek7>on win32?
09:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps https://git.io/Jt1ur
10:05<TrueBrain>okay, tested SDL2, SDL1, Allegro, Cocoa, Win32, dedicated server and emscripten; they all work as I would expect \o/ :D
10:05<LordAro>\o/
10:05<TrueBrain>the only thing I notice more, but that is not a regression of my PR: there is visual tearing
10:05<TrueBrain>most video drivers are not vsync'd it seems
10:05<LordAro>/o\
10:05<TrueBrain>I already knew that, as the trailer also has this
10:05<nielsm>at least in olden times, vsync was not possible in windowed applications on windows
10:05<TrueBrain>but that is something for another PR :)
10:05<nielsm>only in exclusive fullscreen modes
10:06<TrueBrain>I know with OpenGL we are vsync'd
10:07<TrueBrain>so it appears that works for windows too
10:07<TrueBrain>but I really do not know more about that stuff :D
10:07<TrueBrain>all I know is that I can see that OpenTTD currently is not :P
10:07<TrueBrain>and if you watch the trailer closely, you see this happening a lot too :)
10:07<TrueBrain>but okay, nobody reported it .. ever?
10:07<TrueBrain>so I guess we are good :P
10:08<TrueBrain>but seriously, 60fps ... map scrolling is so much nicer to the eye :D
10:08<TrueBrain>it feels ... like silk
10:09<andythenorth>\o/
10:09<TrueBrain>let me create a preview, as even in the browser that is noticeable (to me)
10:10<TrueBrain>nielsm: as most games run in borderless windowed mode these days, I guess that is something they solved by now? I dunno :)
10:11<TrueBrain>might really be OpenGL / Direct3D only stuff :D
10:11<nielsm>yeah it's a good while since they fixed so you can vsync in windowed apps under DWM
10:12<nielsm>and yes I think you need to use an ogl or d3d surface to do it
10:12<TrueBrain>especially on SDL, which is the slowest video driver for me, tearing is noticeable :)
10:12<TrueBrain>but if OpenGL lands, that is all a problem of the past, so I am not that worried honestly
10:13<TrueBrain>this is the only PR in weeks I tested on so many different targets :P It is nice to see that is not really difficult in 2021
10:13<TrueBrain>not fun to do, but also not difficult
10:14<TrueBrain>right, I guess I should add a FF window to set game speeds or something ...
10:14<TrueBrain>as I am sure LordAro will complain about FF now :P
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10:15<LordAro>a window? i was imagining a dropdown
10:16<TrueBrain>something
10:16<TrueBrain>nielsm: btw, a layered window system solves another issue: the responsiveness during map generation
10:16<TrueBrain>I was looking at that earlier today, as it still annoys the fuck out of me .. but in the current setup that isn't really possible to make more responsive for most parts of the generation
10:16<JGR>On screen tearing, I had quite bad issues with this on Linux, these changes to SDL seemed to resolve the issue: https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/51477334be06e2a91541f397b7cbc227ab392bfa https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/commit/1298f49be69b9cf0ba0936b4a353258ae7875ac0
10:16<TrueBrain>a layered window system like you explained would
10:17<JGR>They may no longer be relevant with the recent changes though, I've not caught up on them all yet.
10:17<TrueBrain>the first for sure is interesting
10:17<TrueBrain>both are
10:18<TrueBrain>none of the recent changes do anything with that
10:18<TrueBrain>so yeah, I can imagine those resolve the issue honestly :)
10:18<TrueBrain>I guess those loops should be merged :P
10:19<TrueBrain>but in general, I wonder if we shouldn't just track "biggest rect"
10:19<nielsm>when you're really cpu or memory constrained, a clip region based window system makes sense, but when you get spare cpu and memory a layered one is much more flexible, and easier to work with overall
10:19<TrueBrain>I believe OpenGL will do that too
10:19<TrueBrain>tnx JGR , I will look at that :D
10:19<JGR>No problem
10:19<TrueBrain>wasn't planning too, but if a solution is presented ...
10:19<TrueBrain>might as well :P
10:22<TrueBrain>okay, for shit and giggles, open (I suggest Chrome) https://preview.openttd.org/pr8386/ and https://preview.openttd.org/pr8680/
10:22<TrueBrain>create a new game in both
10:22<TrueBrain>right click your mouse, and move around
10:22<TrueBrain>slowly
10:22<TrueBrain>fast
10:22<TrueBrain>pick one
10:22<TrueBrain>can you spot the difference? :D
10:27<Timberwolf>8680 is nice (for bonus points, I'm trying it on a baby MBP touchbar)
10:30<andythenorth>called it, one is 60
10:30*andythenorth didn't check the fps until after testing, nor read the PR
10:31<TrueBrain>:D
10:31<andythenorth>it's quite obvious
10:31<andythenorth>can't explain why
10:31<TrueBrain>funny aint it? :D
10:31<andythenorth>I think it's the map scroll that does it
10:36<Timberwolf>Is there anything else in it? 8386 this Mac is struggling to keep the simulation rate above 30fps, whereas 8680 it's comfortably sat at 1.00x
10:36<TrueBrain>JGR: with your patches applied, the tearing changes for me, but for sure it has a positive effect here too :)
10:36<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: yeah, 8680 does more things to allow everything to hit deadlnes a bit better
10:37<TrueBrain>for emscripten we depend a bit on the refresh rate of your screen, as browsers calls us on that frequency
10:37<TrueBrain>the new code should align a bit better there
10:38<LordAro>TrueBrain: oh wow
10:38<LordAro>that is so very silky
10:39<TrueBrain>cool aint it? And that for a game from 1994/1995 :P
10:39<Timberwolf>I have to admit, the first thing I did was install Timberwolf's Trains and go through a subset of my "things which break dirty rectangling" list.
10:39<Timberwolf>No problems noted :)
10:40<TrueBrain>\o/
10:40<TrueBrain>that is honestly good to hear
10:40<TrueBrain>as ... well .. I am not 100% sure it is safe
10:40<TrueBrain>:P
10:40<LordAro>TrueBrain: why is "Video output" always coloured yellow?
10:40<LordAro>(emscripten)
10:41<nielsm>when I try the emscripten previews in firefox my mouse cursor is constantly drifting downwards
10:41<TrueBrain>LordAro: because of how emscripten works, basically .. it acts like it takes for-ever to draw
10:41<TrueBrain>which is a lie
10:41<TrueBrain>but it is when the browser takes back control
10:42<TrueBrain>I might be able to fake that
10:42<LordAro>nielsm: no such issues here
10:42<TrueBrain>nielsm: huh? That is odd :D But in general, FireFox isn't the best for these kind of things
10:42<TrueBrain>I have like 50% of the frames I have with Chrome
10:42<nielsm>might be related to me running 150% dpi scaling on that display
10:48<@orudge>[15:13:39] <TrueBrain> this is the only PR in weeks I tested on so many different targets :P It is nice to see that is not really difficult in 2021 <-- I still need to finish the OS/2 update... :D
10:48<TrueBrain>you .. silly ... mister
10:48<TrueBrain>:D
10:50<@orudge>Could potentially even build for OS/2 via GitHub Actions via an SSH relay to a VM... :P Reliability could be an issue there though
10:50<TrueBrain>yeah .... no :P
10:50<TrueBrain>isn't there a Docker to cross-compile? :)
10:51<@orudge>Not last time I checked, but you never know...
11:02<FLHerne>Haiku?
11:05<TrueBrain>JGR: I guess doing the 80% is no longer needed with the other change you made? At least, checking the SDL code, it should behave nearly identical :)
11:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
11:21<TrueBrain>similar solution than JGR showed, but with the eye on OpenGL collapsed the rects to a single one in a different place :)
11:21<JGR>Quite probably yes. I made the 80% change first and the main motivation was performance. I think that it would be reasonable to prefer the the single rectange change.
11:21<TrueBrain>it could some more Linux people testing it
11:22<TrueBrain>I stole code from michi_cc 's branch :D
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12:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
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12:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac closed pull request #8552: Feature: Prevent vehicles to unload cargo in implicit stops in cargodist mode if the cargo is not accepted in such station https://git.io/JLhF7
12:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EratoNysiad opened issue #8686: Unable to change townnames in Scenario editor after pr8566 https://git.io/JtMyZ
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13:21<andythenorth>quak
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13:26<Xaroth>if it talks like a duck...
13:28<frosch123>moo
13:29<frosch123>no ducks allowed
13:29<TrueBrain>frosch123: would you be so kind and try out https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8685 for me? See if it changes anything for you?
13:29<TrueBrain>I think it changes absolutely nothing for you :)
13:29<TrueBrain>(which is a good thing)
13:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JtM7G
13:54<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:58<frosch123>TrueBrain: i don't see a difference. i also see no issue with master
13:58<TrueBrain>frosch123: that is a positive thing :)
13:58<TrueBrain>and yeah, I couldn't reproduce it on all machines
13:58<TrueBrain>just a few that have this issue
13:58<TrueBrain>and when they have it, it is terrible
13:59<TrueBrain>tnx for testing!
13:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda opened issue #8687: CMake include error when building new project. https://git.io/JtM7E
14:00<LordAro>do we support building in paths containing spaces?
14:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM7o
14:00<TrueBrain>LordAro: I dont see a reason why not
14:01<TrueBrain>as if we don't, it means we are not escaping something
14:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM76
14:01<LordAro>potentially
14:01<LordAro>makefiles are pretty terrible at dealing with paths with spaces
14:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM7X
14:02<TrueBrain>LordAro: the initial CMake I created, I created with a space in my path
14:02<TrueBrain>to avoid this mistake
14:02<TrueBrain>it is not difficult, just easy to mess up :D
14:02<LordAro>:)
14:03<TrueBrain>really cannot believe CMake doesn't protect that better honestly :)
14:04<LordAro>add a space into the CI build path :p
14:04<TrueBrain>well, that is a good way, honestly
14:04<TrueBrain>write that in the issue plz :D
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14:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #14: Change readme, license, descriptions https://git.io/JtrZp
14:14<TrueBrain>sorry frosch123 , really don't know what you mean with your comment :(
14:14<frosch123>what about the first rectangle?
14:15<frosch123>doesn't it always include (0,0) into the rectangle?
14:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #14: Change readme, license, descriptions https://git.io/JtM5Z
14:15<TrueBrain>ah, you mean that
14:15<Wuzzy>I have just removed the outdatd translations in OpenSFX PR
14:15<TrueBrain>means you also found a bug in the OpenGL branch :P
14:15<Wuzzy>because they are no longer correct (description changed due to license)
14:16<Wuzzy>care to review OpenSFX #14, please?
14:16<Wuzzy>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenSFX/pull/14
14:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM58
14:17<TrueBrain>michi_cc: what would be a better way, check in BoundingRect() if the Rect was empty, or do it in MakeDirty, or did I copy/paste your code wrong ^^ :)
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14:24<_2TallTyler>One of my default setting improvements in 8463 doesn't seem to have worked in 1.11.0-beta1, to use non-stop orders by default. The settings menu lists is as default-off. Can anyone confirm?
14:25<supermop_Home_>andythenorth would it be obnoxious to open an issue about the opengfx hotel?
14:26<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Let me read my code. I'm not sure I actually thought about that problem :)
14:26<TrueBrain>frosch123 is giving you a free early review :D
14:27<TrueBrain>he just doesn't know :P
14:31<+michi_cc>Okay, the way I implemented it is wrong :) I would actually tend to change BoundingRect (i.e. by ignore rects that have width&&height==0) just in case the function is used somewhere else in the future.
14:31<TrueBrain>k, let me fix that in my PR already :D
14:33<+michi_cc>It actually not that surprising, BTW, that the new layered drawing on OSX is very fast.
14:33<TrueBrain>it uses OpenGL in the backend, I noticed :P
14:33<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ no it would not!
14:33<+michi_cc>What the OpenGL PR does is basically two things: improve moving pixels to screen and improve palette animation by offloading it to the GPU.
14:33<andythenorth>I have been not doing the PR
14:33<LordAro>_2TallTyler: confirmed, doesn't appear to have worked
14:33<andythenorth>because then I don't know who will approve the PR
14:33<Wuzzy>seems like everyone ignores me now. 🙁
14:33<TrueBrain>you do have to test my performance PR btw michi_cc ; I couldn't find any reason why std::chrono would be of issue
14:34<andythenorth>and I was in no mind for debating 2 hotel sprites until we are all dead
14:34<andythenorth>if someone else does the PR, I will approve it :P
14:34<Timberwolf>Wuzzy: There's just a lot on, PRs take a while. e.g. I have one that's a few weeks old, it'll happen when it happens.
14:35<frosch123>_2TallTyler: yep, you changed the wrong setting
14:35<+michi_cc>Now on OSX a CALayer is basically a thing wrapper around a GPU surface. Giving the system a bitmap reference to upload to the GPU is excatly what part 1 of OpenGL PR does, except of course that OSX can use the most optimal implementation.
14:35<TrueBrain>michi_cc: makes sense
14:35<+michi_cc>So that only leaves the improved palette animation, which as it seems currently is not enough speedup to compensate the less optimal GPU upload.
14:35<frosch123>"gui.sg_new_nonstop" is wrong, "gui.new_nonstop" would have been the right thing
14:36<_2TallTyler>Are those SLV_22 and SLV_93 lines to denote an obsolete setting?
14:36<frosch123>it used to be a game setting instead of a client setting
14:36<frosch123>so it was stored in savegames
14:36<TrueBrain>michi_cc: so we can further improve the OpenGL implementation, you say :D :D :D
14:36<TrueBrain>(not for the first iteration!)
14:36<frosch123>you actually need to revert that change, since it may break old savegames
14:36<frosch123>*very old* savegames only though :p
14:37<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Improving the OpenGL implementation might translate to "write a Metal backend" for OSX :D
14:37<TrueBrain>michi_cc: haha :D
14:38<_2TallTyler>Can I revert just that change in a new PR which also changes the correct setting, or do I need to revert the entirety of #8463? Never reverted a PR before.
14:38<frosch123>just make a new PR, which changes the two defaults
14:39<_2TallTyler>OK, will do. Thanks.
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14:39<frosch123>put the hash of the old commit into the "Fix" commit message
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14:39<_2TallTyler>Righto
14:39<frosch123>though we can also add that on squash :)
14:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
14:39<TrueBrain>michi_cc: something like this what you had in mind too ^^?
14:41<+michi_cc>Yes, though I might actually have checked X and Y to allow "line" extensions.
14:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
14:43<TrueBrain>fair enough
14:43<TrueBrain>depends on what you define as rect
14:43<TrueBrain>is top=0, bottom=0 a line?
14:43<TrueBrain>or is it nothing?
14:44<TrueBrain>:D
14:44<TrueBrain>currently, I was assuming it was nothing btw
14:44<TrueBrain>which is fine, as what-ever you pick, do it consistent for your usage, and you are fine
14:45<+michi_cc>"top | bottom | left | right == 0" :D
14:45<frosch123>how about -1 then? or std::optional<rectangle> :p
14:46<TrueBrain>okay, you guys fight out what the best C++ way of doing this is, I will write the code, k? :P
14:47<+michi_cc>Bitwise or is definitely the C way, not the C++ way :)
14:49<+michi_cc>The most C++ way is probably "std::optional<Rect> _dirty_rect;"
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14:50<+michi_cc>But I think a normal if is okay for us :
14:50<+michi_cc>)
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14:51<TrueBrain>so something like this :P
14:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
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14:51<TrueBrain>I still have tearing btw, but now it is vsync tearing .. without this PR, I have a very weird tearing (vertical, instead of horizontal)
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14:52<+michi_cc>It's future proof, and nicely uncommon C :)
14:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
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14:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
14:54<TrueBrain>now with doxygen comments
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14:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtMdd
14:54<+michi_cc>frosch might have a different opinion, but meh ^^
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14:56<Wolf01>People are dying!
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14:58<frosch123>michi_cc: did you already fight with glx? :p
14:59<+michi_cc>I think there's a slight tendency for my PR.
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14:59<TrueBrain>that is not fighting :(
15:00<+michi_cc>I can't approve myself. I could close glx' PR though :D
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15:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8678: Fix #8676: GUI-visible settings may not be part of misc settings. https://git.io/JtMFf
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15:01<frosch123>reject it as "this has already been fixed"?
15:01<TrueBrain>:D
15:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8678: Fix #8676: GUI-visible settings may not be part of misc settings. https://git.io/JtX9t
15:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #8676: Crash when opening settings window https://git.io/JtXiF
15:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8677: Fix #8676: Revert a2c3197f4 and unconditionally load settings "early" https://git.io/JtMFJ
15:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed pull request #8677: Fix #8676: Revert a2c3197f4 and unconditionally load settings "early" https://git.io/JtXSK
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15:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMFt
15:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #8683: Feature: Town name generator for Spanish (Spain) https://git.io/JtMtf
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15:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8659: Change: "(Business/Chair)man" to "(Business/Chair)person" https://git.io/JtMFG
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15:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8685: Fix: [SDL2] simplify what to redraw to prevent tearing https://git.io/JtM1T
15:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8601: Female CEOs might get the title of “Businessman” or “Chairman” https://git.io/Jt365
15:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8659: Change: "(Business/Chair)man" to "(Business/Chair)person" https://git.io/Jtrqd
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16:04<NGC3982>oh hai
16:05<_2TallTyler>Does anyone have a comprehensive proof that path signals are not more computationally-intensive than block signals? I see this opinion stated several times a week on Discord and would like a better argument against it than "Timberwolf said so in one of his videos"
16:05<supermop_Home_>so i am dumb, i don't really get how a PR works for a sprite. Like for a base set, if i want to add new sprites, how does that work?
16:06<_2TallTyler>I'm working on a new implementation of #7504 so I expect a lot of people to come out of the woodwork with that argument :)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home_: look at #8556
16:07<frosch123>_2TallTyler: noone ever measured it. the theoretical discussions all compare oranges with apples
16:07<Xaroth>andythenorth_: https://i.redd.it/njkbuir592i61.jpg
16:08<supermop_Home_>Eddi|zuHause is that an opengfx issue?
16:08<Xaroth>every time I read that sentence I have to think of that.
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home_: no, for openttd
16:08<frosch123>_2TallTyler: for example: with block signals, the signals update everytime a train passes, and the pathfinder of the train runs at every junction. for path signals: updating signals and pathfinding is mostly the same thing. the path finder runs when the signal is passed, and then follows the reservation
16:09<frosch123>_2TallTyler: so, if you have a big junction and only one path signal in front, then the pathfinder will run only once. but with a block signal the pathfinder would run at every intermediate junction
16:10<frosch123>_2TallTyler: most comparisons claim path signals are more expensive because they have to run the pathfinder. but then forget that the train won't have to run it later.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home_: it depends on what exactly you want to add
16:11<frosch123>supermop_Home_: the "extra" grf of a baseset is a regular newgrf, it works the same as any other newgrf
16:12<_2TallTyler>Thanks for the explanation, frosch123
16:12<supermop_Home_>just replace the arctic hotel sprite
16:12<supermop_Home_>i can't see that issue eddi
16:12<+glx>extra is basically a list of action 5 IIRC
16:13<supermop_Home_>oh its a pr
16:14<frosch123>_2TallTyler: ah, i forgot one item: some people make the distinction that on straight track without any junctions, path signals would be expensive because they run a pathfinder when no path needs finding
16:14<frosch123>but i don't know either whether it really searches for a path, or whether it stops when it notices there is just straight track
16:15<andythenorth_>Xaroth lolz
16:15<andythenorth_>what a come down
16:16<frosch123>Xaroth: everyone knows andy would never ride a horse. he likes ponies
16:16<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ just replace the sprites, there are probably 4 or 6, climate specific?
16:17<andythenorth_>then PR
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home_: if you just want to change the existing sprite, you just modify the file and pr that
16:18<+glx>finding path in long straight track is trivial I think, so probably not that expensive
16:18<frosch123>glx: i don't know whether it only searches up to the next signal, or until the destination
16:19<supermop_Home_>andythenorth_ you misunderstand how little i understand about this. so gh is like what branches are you comparing, so one branch is a .png, and the other branch is opengfx master?
16:19<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ maybe Eddi|zuHause will do it :)
16:19<andythenorth_>then I can approve?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home_: just read the git explanation of how to make a PR.
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>it works the same way no matter if you modify a code file or an image
16:27<andythenorth_>oops, /me clicked 'settings' in a recent pull of master :)
16:27<andythenorth_>oh dear
16:27<TrueBrain>not recent enough, clearly
16:27<andythenorth_>'recent'
16:27<TrueBrain>:D
16:28<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ TBH I can do it, I just fear it will sit for months because nobody else will want to answer to players "ZOMG you deleted the beautiful rendered OGFX hotel sprite"
16:28<andythenorth_>so the PR might not move
16:28<andythenorth_>let's be optimistic!
16:28<andythenorth_>where is my opengfx checkout :P
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16:28<TrueBrain>I answered to players today!
16:28<TrueBrain>well, not about OpenGFX :P
16:29<supermop_Home_>andythenorth_ tell them it's my fault
16:29<frosch123>i read that as "prayers" :p
16:29<andythenorth_>someone still has to approve :P
16:30<frosch123>we had an ogfx dev, but they only played with original graphics, so they quit
16:30<andythenorth_>I think I kept my approval rights :P
16:31<TrueBrain>blind approval? I can do that too! :P
16:31<frosch123>supermop_Home_: anyway, we need to add the two new gui sprites to ogfx in the next month. and then there will be a new release
16:31<frosch123>so, if you can PR before that, you are less likely to have to wait a year for the next release :p
16:31<+glx>oh if you touch opengfx images andythenorth_, there's a glitch with some tunnel tiles
16:32<+glx>and the opengfx is "broken" too, for some accented chars
16:33<andythenorth_>do we know what needs fixed?
16:33<+glx>oh supermop_Home_, we can see issue #44 ;)
16:35<andythenorth_>now it's the game called 'hunt the openfx sprite' :D
16:36<andythenorth_>no, I'm not proposing reorganising the spritesheets either, they rarely need changed :P
16:36<+glx>well for fonts there's an open issue
16:36<andythenorth_>rad arctichotel.png is a thing
16:36<+glx>for tunnel glitch I don't see an open issue, but I can try to remember how to spot it ingame
16:36<andythenorth_>unusually easy this one
16:37<andythenorth_>ogfx in windows palette? :o
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16:39<andythenorth_>oh we have some ANIM warnings for high score :D
16:39*andythenorth_ must have missed some last year
16:41<frosch123>no, it was not missed
16:41<frosch123>we made a lof of fun about the sprite being completely broken and noone ever reporting it
16:42<frosch123>it was probably too much work to fix it
16:44<supermop_Home_>are any new gui needed to draw?
16:45<supermop_Home_>glx yay
16:47<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ FIRS picks up the ogfx sprite https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/311126e1d2cb2ad3c31bc86bc02a26d4#gistcomment-3635022
16:48<andythenorth_>I haven't found one in a town yet :P
16:48<andythenorth_>so glad I don't make houses, testing them must be horrible
16:49<supermop_Home_>andythenorth_ do you get the house version with firs loaded?
16:49<andythenorth_>yes
16:49<andythenorth_>I don't nerf the town version
16:49<andythenorth_>found one, it's date sensitive
16:49<supermop_Home_>also lmk if you want all the assorted other bits for in firs
16:49<supermop_Home_>or / direction
16:50<andythenorth_>https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/311126e1d2cb2ad3c31bc86bc02a26d4#gistcomment-3635029
16:50<supermop_Home_>i didn't draw / yet but shouldn't take more than a couple hours
16:50<+michi_cc>_2TallTyler: I've never measured the PBS code I wrote, but from a theoretical POV: Path signals are better if multiple junction tiles are in one signal block due to less pathfinder calls; straight line no difference.
16:51<supermop_Home_>well it looks better than the rendered one at least
16:51<andythenorth_>I _think_ it has converted to windows palette ok
16:51<andythenorth_>there are fewer greys, it might have lost some shading
16:51<+michi_cc>The one thing path signals are worse is when trains wait at a red/blocked signals as they can't passively wait for the signal to turn red but have to periodically query for a free path.
16:51<frosch123>supermop_Home_: i think the sprites from openttd.grf are good enough. we only had one pencil icon, and the location icon also won clearly
16:51<+michi_cc>I.e. path signals are generally better except if your network is mostly a traffic jam :)
16:52<_2TallTyler>michi_cc I haven't seen any argument about path signals at junctions, just whether they're worse than block signals on junction-less track
16:52<andythenorth_>how much pathfinding could it even be doing?
16:52<andythenorth_>there's one node to consider
16:52<+michi_cc>They aren't. Pathfinder calls only ever occur on junction tiles.
16:52<andythenorth_>and one edge
16:53<+glx>ok for at least rail tunnels in / direction there's a missing pixel, spottable when moving a window over it
16:53<+michi_cc>And putting a path reservation on the tile will always be done, even for block signals, just a bit later when the train enters the tile instead of when it enters the signal block. Still exactly the same amount of work.
16:54<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/311126e1d2cb2ad3c31bc86bc02a26d4#gistcomment-3635031
16:54<+michi_cc>I wrote that shit so I should know it. But I do have to admit I never did any in-depth profiling.
16:54<andythenorth_>I think people confuse what looks like work (drawing the reservation) with actual work
16:54<andythenorth_>like I think nmlc is slow to do lang, because it sometimes prints a lot of warning lines :P
16:55<andythenorth_>not empirically true, but my brain knows otherwise
16:55<supermop_Home_>andythenorth_ now i feel like i need to fix that church
16:55<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ this is why I don't touch opengfx
16:55<andythenorth_>it's not that I think it's shit and want to throw it away
16:55<andythenorth_>it's just that it's 80% and could be brought up to an even standard
16:55<andythenorth_>but so much...work
16:56<+glx>and there's no real consistency in interface gfx (for me)
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16:56<andythenorth_>whenever I enable it, I get tempted to...tweak
16:58<FLHerne>andythenorth_: Printing to the console can actually be surprisingly slow :p
16:58<andythenorth_>so I AM RIGHT!
16:58<andythenorth_>fancy that
16:59<supermop_Home_>andythenorth_ yeah, and its hard to set a scope for the tweaking... limit yourself to just fixing the snow, or maybe the whole roof, or redraw the whole thin?
16:59<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/311126e1d2cb2ad3c31bc86bc02a26d4#gistcomment-3635036 alternative guest room
16:59<andythenorth_>and below, snow version
17:00<andythenorth_>think I prefer that second version, shape is easier to parse
17:00<supermop_Home_>and once the most egregious thing is fixed, the next thing that looked ok before now sticks out as the new worst
17:00<supermop_Home_>the little gables stand out better at scale
17:01<andythenorth_>yeah I was just looking up what they are technically called
17:01<andythenorth_>I call them gables, but I thought that might be wrong :P
17:01<andythenorth_>they tie the two tiles together
17:01<supermop_Home_>the one without (A) works better maybe as a stand alone one tile cheap ski town motel
17:01<andythenorth_>very banff
17:01<andythenorth_>there are flashing pixels on the end wall btw
17:01<andythenorth_>easy fix but eh
17:02<supermop_Home_>lake placid has both quaint tiny 8 room lodges like that, and big grand hotels with a big atrium
17:02<supermop_Home_>which end wall?
17:02<supermop_Home_>thought i'd got all of those
17:03<andythenorth_>nearest SE end
17:03<andythenorth_>colour is b06c54 in hex, and there's a an L-shaped group of it amongst other pixels
17:03<supermop_Home_>ugh
17:03<andythenorth_>it's a brick colour, really common issue this one
17:04<andythenorth_>colour 230 here https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/palette_key.png
17:04<andythenorth_>you want 78 or so
17:05<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ fancy making the snow more similar to rest of opengfx?
17:05<andythenorth_>shading at edges seems to be the convention
17:07<supermop_Home_>i tried to make it look 'thick' so it has a brighter face along SE edge, as if it was vertical for 2px there. i can add a little more color around corners tho
17:08<supermop_Home_>just got to find my psd real quick
17:09<supermop_Home_>78 are the bad ones?
17:10<supermop_Home_>or 227-231 are bad?
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17:17<andythenorth_>227-231 are animated
17:23<supermop_Home_>okie dokie
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17:31<andythenorth_>hmm we broke Arctic Farms
17:31<andythenorth_>that makes me look like a right twat in the forums?
17:35<frosch123>at work there is an internal "forum"
17:35<frosch123>one forum is about IT, but mostly about complaining about IT
17:36<frosch123>today there was a thread, where people complained that they have to click a window away after signing wia the VPN
17:36<frosch123>apparently it's very annoying, and the extra click (after entering your PW) is a lot of work
17:36<frosch123>they some random guy posted a shell script, to log in to the VPN without dialogs
17:37<frosch123>but that script also skipped the password dialog, by storing the raw password in the script
17:37<supermop_Home_>nice
17:37<TrueBrain>Hahaha
17:37<frosch123>which funnily gaines a lot of praised, until IT told them to never ever do that
17:37<frosch123>so they spend more work to add an console input for the PW
17:38<frosch123>all about removing a single click?
17:38<frosch123>anyway, I am not IT, but that forum always shows me that not only our users are like that :)
17:39<frosch123>people come up with the weirdest suggestions to solve the weirdest non-problems
17:39<TrueBrain>Lolz @ reply on our forums
17:39<TrueBrain>Holy crap, that dude is lost
17:40<TrueBrain>He took a wrong turn somewhere and is now somewhere in the forest
17:40<frosch123>well, flat arctic maps don't work :) either you have no forests or no farms
17:40<TrueBrain>I love that it turned into demanding answers .. as if we are on trial :D
17:42<frosch123>is there some rule 73 on the internet: if you start with argueing about "your freedom", you have already lost the conversation?
17:42<TrueBrain>I love the complaints about the screenshot of the minimaps .. he is aware those are heightmaps, right?
17:44<TrueBrain>But yeah, a conversation where someone has a pitchfork in his hand is a lost conversation before it started :(
17:45<supermop_Home_>haha what topic?
17:48<TrueBrain>In general
17:48<TrueBrain>Can't miss it :p
17:48<andythenorth_>I did a reply and deleted
17:48<andythenorth_>I did another one, better
17:49<andythenorth_>dunno why this pisses me off, I think it's that I already told him in the GH issue that this is happening
17:49<andythenorth_>then he goes to forums and starts a poll, as though this is a democracy, and not some kind of clusterfuck un-nameable political structure
17:50<andythenorth_>the walls of text are just...oof
17:50<TrueBrain>Just a typical "I have been wronged" thread .. we all made them, and we have seen many more :)
17:50<andythenorth_>I think I stopped early
17:50<andythenorth_>I joined internet culture via usenet
17:51<andythenorth_>usenet was both very prone to numbered nitpicks
17:51<TrueBrain>And I am no longer allowed to solve that in my favorite way :p
17:51<andythenorth_>and very prone to flaming them
17:56<_2TallTyler>I'm attempting to change the "Enable the signal GUI" to a drop-down, enabling the user to select Path signals only, All signals, or None (original off behavior). I've changed it from bool to uint8, but the selector is a left-right arrow, not a drop-down. What am I missing?
17:57<frosch123>andythenorth_: no need for more replies, erato already posted the best reply "8. ugly grass" :)
17:57<andythenorth_>oofsie
17:57<_2TallTyler>https://pasteboard.co/JOPWZrQ.png
17:57<frosch123>i like that reply :)
17:57<andythenorth_>supermop_Home_ I won't do more ogfx tonight, going to sleep soon-ish :)
17:58<andythenorth_>but send me any tweaks, I might get them in tomorrow
18:00<frosch123>_2TallTyler: guiflags, SGF_MULTISTRING i think
18:02<_2TallTyler>I thought I had that, but had a typo of "guiflats" ... :p
18:02<_2TallTyler>Works now
18:02<supermop_Home_>ok
18:02<supermop_Home_>sorry i was talking to my super about fixing a water hammer in the pipes from upstairs
18:03<supermop_Home_>want me to PM it?
18:03<supermop_Home_>i fixed the animated pixels and tried to shade the snow more
18:04<frosch123>_2TallTyler: not sure whether a setting in the setting tree is the best option
18:04<frosch123>the signal gui could itself have expand buttons to hide block, path and semaphore singals
18:05<frosch123>oh, it's already tomorrow...
18:06<frosch123>night
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18:08<LordAro>ooh, forum drama
18:08<LordAro>they're Zorg on GH, aren't they?
18:09<supermop_Home_>??
18:09<_2TallTyler>Yes, same person
18:09<TrueBrain>Yes LordAro
18:10<andythenorth_>standard forum drama, it's about almost nothing
18:10<supermop_Home_>andythenorth_ sent pm
18:11<andythenorth_>got it cheers :)
18:17*andythenorth_ must to sleep
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18:21<supermop_Home_>man
18:22<supermop_Home_>where do they get the energy
18:35<TrueBrain>Who does?
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19:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default https://git.io/JtDJs
19:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8689: Fix cc39fa9: New orders are non-stop by default https://git.io/JtDJE
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21:02<Trank>hi dudes
21:02<Trank>i found some bugs in last version
21:03<Trank>were to where to describe it to developers for fix?
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23:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] reldred commented on pull request #8480: Multitile depots https://git.io/JtD3Z
23:29<reldred>That’s eerie getting pinged on irc after commenting on GitHub 😅
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 18 00:00:44 2021