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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-02-18

---Logopened Thu Feb 18 00:00:44 2021
00:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8631: Graph window - Allow the choice of a graph background
00:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8690: Change: Darken graph grid lines for legibility
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03:31<andythenorth>'vehicle failed to renew' messages seem to kill my FPS
03:31<andythenorth>they aren't shown, but they are being added to news log
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03:57<andythenorth>could we support negative running costs for vehicles?
03:57<andythenorth>currently negative value just overflows / wraps
04:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8690: Change: Darken graph grid lines for legibility
04:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8630: Graph window - Colors of the auxiliary grid have not been adjusted to the dark background, which reduces the readability
04:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8690: Change: Darken graph grid lines for legibility
04:20<_dp_>now we're getting somewhere xD
04:20<_dp_>I was tempted to make a "Revert dark BG" PR with the motivation "closes more issues (#8630 #8633 #8632) than in solves (#8539)" :p
04:21<TrueBrain>I would have closed that PR with: now I got to close a PR!
04:21<TrueBrain>at this point, I am not budging to bullying
04:23<TrueBrain>it cannot be that if you MAKE A LOT OF NOISE AND COMPLAIN EVERYWHERE you get to do what-ever you want ;)
04:23<TrueBrain>that said, 1.11 would have never released with the UI as it was, I just didn't find the motivation to address it yet .. happy 2TallTyler is :)
04:24<TrueBrain>it is funny, how low motivation comes when someone is doing stuff like this :P
04:25<andythenorth>it's really really unhelpful
04:25<TrueBrain>the old saying: you catch more flies with honey, holds true especially in Open Source :)
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>me and low motivation are long time friends
04:27<andythenorth>every now and then I watch this
04:27<TrueBrain>at a certain point they call it depression ;) As a FYI :)
04:27<andythenorth>appreciating that Steve Jobs is a divisive figure, it's still worth watching :P
04:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8631: Profit window - Not all cargo colours are visible
04:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8631: Profit window - Not all cargo colours are visible
04:32<TrueBrain>I was hoping someone else would close that issue :P
04:32<TrueBrain>but he doesn't like me already anyway, so one more wouldn't hurt :D
04:33<TrueBrain>I did have to change the title, as that was a bit weird
04:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
04:34<_dp_>there already are different themes for map :p
04:34<TrueBrain>there is? ugh .. that would be horrible
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'd suggest a "high visibility" mode, where the graph lines get a thicker outline in a bright colour
04:35<andythenorth>I'd suggest leaving it all alone :)
04:35<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that is a better approach at least :)
04:35<andythenorth>that chart is lolz anyway
04:35<TrueBrain>there are more places that can benefit from ... people who otherwise find things hard to read :D
04:35<_dp_>cmclient does outlines but I'd wait for vanilla to release before experimenting with that
04:36<andythenorth>I have completely distorted FIRS gameplay just to make that chart somewhat legible
04:36<TrueBrain>_dp_: how does that work for map?
04:36<andythenorth>FIRS cargo rates are set algorithmically (with manual tuning) to space out the lines on that chart
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it'll certainly cover more cases than twiddling around with individual colours all day
04:36<andythenorth>which is a weird-ass way to design gameplay, but we are where we are
04:37<andythenorth>FIRS cargo chains are also designed so they look good in the graphviz flow layouts
04:37<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: what I like about it, it goes behind "themes", and just allows a bit of freedom for: how to make the UI better readable :D
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>input from an actual colourblind person might help
04:37<andythenorth>css for the UI
04:37<_dp_>TrueBrain, wdym? there is "land colour used at the smallmap" setting
04:37<andythenorth>html frontend
04:37<TrueBrain>_dp_: ah, that
04:37<TrueBrain>(why was it added?)
04:38<andythenorth>because I can't see certain colours on the green, despite having 98% vision acuity
04:38<andythenorth>so I asked for purple, and got purple
04:38<TrueBrain>so they added it for you? Awwwhhh :)
04:38<andythenorth>we used to make progress in the UI and newgrf :)
04:38<andythenorth>in the olden days
04:38<andythenorth>when I was young
04:38<_dp_>dunno why but it's quite annoying when changing the map
04:38<TrueBrain>personally, I am not a fan of all this personal tweaking :P
04:39<andythenorth>we should just make one game, played the way one person decides
04:39<andythenorth>and remove newgrf
04:39<TrueBrain>well, that is a bit drastic
04:39<andythenorth>I forgot the emoji
04:39<TrueBrain>the /s you mean :P
04:40<andythenorth>that's a thing? :)
04:40<TrueBrain>a reddit thing, but yes
04:40<TrueBrain>what a game needs, any game, is people making decisions
04:40<TrueBrain>we are not making a game for everybody
04:40<TrueBrain>we are making a game for the 90%
04:40<TrueBrain>not the 0.001% :)
04:40<TrueBrain>that lesson we learnt in 2006 or so
04:41<TrueBrain>when the amount of settings was such a large list :P
04:41<TrueBrain>take the map colours .. would have been better if that was a NewGRF that could do it
04:41<TrueBrain>so andythenorth could load "purple" map NewGRF
04:41<TrueBrain>and if 50% of the people download it and use it
04:41<TrueBrain>well, 70%
04:42<TrueBrain>it might be time to switch the default ;)
04:42<andythenorth>moddable UI would be a thing, some of it is already adjustable via newgrf
04:42<andythenorth>icons, colours
04:42<andythenorth>but by accident, not design
04:43<_dp_>TrueBrain, god no
04:43<_dp_>everything newgrf is such a huge nuisance when changing the ui
04:43<TrueBrain>I said it would be "better", not that it is a good idea :D
04:43<andythenorth>these are the downsides of modding frameworks
04:43<andythenorth>API has a cost etc etc
04:43<TrueBrain>another solution would be to have settings-presets, and make it a non-UI setting
04:44<andythenorth>the general case is one thing
04:44<andythenorth>the specific case of the cargo chart is caused by people like me
04:44<_dp_>why not just change industry colors so that they're visible on the green map? :P
04:44<TrueBrain>Path of Exile is a nice example .. their loot filter, by default, is okay-ish
04:45<TrueBrain>it is the opinion of the creators of the game
04:45<TrueBrain>I never ever play with it
04:45<TrueBrain>they allow you to load a file that changes everything about loot
04:45<TrueBrain>colours, background, sound, etc
04:45<TrueBrain>doing that yourself is .. euuuhhhhhhhh
04:45<andythenorth>_dp_ can't remember, long time ago :)
04:45<TrueBrain>but a very few people do that for you
04:45<TrueBrain>so many people load their preset
04:45*andythenorth crashed the game with settings window
04:45<andythenorth>if only I had pulled :P
04:45<andythenorth>or saved my game
04:45<TrueBrain>I like that way of solving that .. it allows people to have an opinion on the matter
04:45<TrueBrain>still deliver a good base game
04:46<TrueBrain>that is not full of nobs to turns for the random player
04:46<andythenorth>winamp skins :P
04:46<_dp_>just fork it! :p
04:46<TrueBrain>but my OpenTTD would look rather different :)
04:46<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> and if 50% of the people download it and use it <-- as with any non-default option, that'll probably never go above 1% :p
04:46<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: well, the survey the other day surprised us
04:47<TrueBrain>caused us to change defaults
04:47<TrueBrain>if something is popular enough, it will get in the top N
04:47<andythenorth>hmm, I have updated master, but is TB 60fps patch rebaseable to that? :P
04:47*andythenorth git clown
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>well... "survey" is a different thing to "random sample"
04:47<TrueBrain>I just pushed a rebased version andythenorth
04:47<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no, it contained a scan of all multiplayer servers
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>even that might have a sampling bias
04:48<TrueBrain>everything has a sample bias
04:48<TrueBrain>I was arguing your "1%"
04:48<TrueBrain>we have ways to see what people do in a more generic context :)
04:48<TrueBrain>so it is not all bad
04:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8679: Fix: [Cygwin] Fix missing uint definition
04:49<andythenorth>TrueBrain you are my hero :)
04:49<andythenorth>for today
04:49<andythenorth>30fps is so ugh
04:49<andythenorth>I can NEVER go back
04:49<TrueBrain>yeah, playing on 30fps now is really difficult
04:49<TrueBrain>like .. super dupah difficult :P
04:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8681: Fix: Autorenew failure advice due to bad refit being shown to all companies
04:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8681: Fix: Autorenew failure advice due to bad refit being shown to all companies
04:51<andythenorth>so how we do investigate if queueing news messages smacks FPS?
04:51*andythenorth thinks it does, but eh, confirmation bias
04:51<TrueBrain>open framerate window
04:52<TrueBrain>if what you say is true, the "Graphics rendering" should increase
04:52<TrueBrain>(and possibly "Video output")
04:53<TrueBrain>owh, you can click those numbers
04:53<TrueBrain>and get a graph
04:53<TrueBrain>did not know that
04:53<TrueBrain>hidden feature
04:53<TrueBrain>that is cool
04:53<TrueBrain>like really cool
04:54<LordAro>you've been doing all this graphical stuff and you didn't know about the graph? :o
04:54<TrueBrain>NOTHING on that window suggests things are clickable
04:54<TrueBrain>so no, I did not know about that
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>this game is full of "hidden features"
04:54<TrueBrain>you cannot click the rates, for example
04:54<andythenorth>seems I made a video previously
04:54<andythenorth>that video is easily misunderstood
04:55<andythenorth>it's easy to watch with pre-conception, and say 'of course animating the news window is slower'
04:55<TrueBrain>andythenorth: now do it again with my PR, and click on the GRaphics rendering, and video output first
04:55<TrueBrain>now I have to make those graphs in a black background too, not?
04:55*andythenorth has no comment
04:56<TrueBrain>I do not like it is based on 2 seconds, the graphs .. that is slightly too low for me to process the information given
04:56<TrueBrain>you can't have it all :D
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think i remember discussing news-related slowdown
04:56<andythenorth>you did
04:57<andythenorth>didn't you fix something related to it?
04:57<Timberwo1f>I get this with Timberwolf's Trains (and the other 2x sets). There's clearly a decent number of people using it, but all I know of it is when I get a bug report where the save or screenshot is "full Timberwolf".
04:58<Timberwo1f>If you listened to the 1%, you'd assume "nobody ever plays extra zoom"
04:58<TrueBrain>yeah .. common pitfall to listen to the vocal minority :)
04:59<Timberwo1f>There are definitely people making suggestions who don't actually use it themselves (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but amusing when people suggest "you should add..." something which has been in the set for months)
05:00<andythenorth>I like reddit
05:00<andythenorth>not for reddit
05:00<andythenorth>but it's the same reason I used to go to PC World sometimes to remind myself what actual computer users are like
05:00<andythenorth>not tech bloggers
05:01<TrueBrain>@calc 512 / (1000 / 30)
05:01<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 15.36
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: was around here somewhere
05:01<andythenorth>reddit is still surprised by how to build stations
05:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause thanks
05:02<TrueBrain>andythenorth: if the news problem still exists with my PR, let me know, I might have some ideas what causes that .. but first .. need to be sure we are solving a problem :D
05:02<andythenorth>I am running a test now
05:02<andythenorth>it might be that news is co-incidental, not sure
05:02<TrueBrain>a screenshot of the graphs of the framerate window would help, of those 2 I mentioned
05:03<andythenorth>coincidence now causation etc
05:03<andythenorth>yeah I took screenshots of 'the problem is not showing'
05:03<andythenorth>and now I am waiting for it to show
05:04<andythenorth>ok it's manifested
05:04<andythenorth>very little of interest in the graphs
05:05<andythenorth>a run of "Autorenew failed" messages coincides with FFWD rate dropping from 30x to about 20x
05:05<andythenorth>*coincides* :)
05:05<andythenorth>repro-ed twice
05:05<TrueBrain>show screenshot of graphs plz :)
05:06<andythenorth>now going to replace the vehicles to prove it eliminates the issue
05:06<andythenorth>(might not)
05:07<TrueBrain>the news animation is running in the game-tick
05:07<TrueBrain>that is annoying me
05:07<TrueBrain>not as smooth
05:07<TrueBrain>my 60fps patch breaks the graphs of the frame rate window :D
05:07<TrueBrain>they keep rescaling :P
05:08<andythenorth>oops, I have no money in my savegame
05:08<andythenorth>-£1bn or so
05:09<andythenorth>I tested negative running costs, but they overflow, so my trains are horribly unprofitable :)
05:09<andythenorth>can't replace with no money :P
05:09*andythenorth fixes
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05:13<TrueBrain>I do not understand the frame rate window enough to see what I have to do to fix my scaling issue ..
05:13<TrueBrain>it takes 60 points and bases the horizontal axis on that, or something
05:13<TrueBrain>but I do not understand why
05:14*andythenorth wonders how much fps impact the performance graphs have
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05:15<TrueBrain>I should ask nielsm when he is here I guess, hopefully he remembers :)
05:17<Timberwo1f>andythenorth: Yeah, watching people play the game is interesting. I had to pause and go for a short lie down after seeing Master Hellish use the m*n station size selection buttons.
05:17<andythenorth>I have am old video showing that window-shading the FPS window makes a measurable difference to FPS
05:17<andythenorth>an *
05:17<Timberwo1f>"everyone" uses drag&drop, right? :p
05:18<andythenorth>hmm so many factors confounding this
05:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
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05:18<TrueBrain>wait, you can still select station sizes old-style?
05:18<andythenorth>I suspect my mac is now thermal throttling as FFWD has dropped to 15x for no obvious reason
05:19<TrueBrain>why did that never get removed, lol
05:19<andythenorth>because someone's workflow might be broken
05:19<andythenorth>and nerds hate social conflict
05:19<andythenorth>or something
05:19<Timberwolf>I can't really talk, I notice from my comments I drive people mad with not using the modern shortcuts and doing things the way Chris intended.
05:19<andythenorth>oh wait, maybe nerds love social conflict, I can't remember
05:19<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: haha :D
05:20<andythenorth>yeah, ok so reliable performance measures are way beyond me
05:20<andythenorth>macs have some energy management that will start nice-ing aggressive processes
05:21<Timberwolf>andythenorth: social conflict when we win. The one when we lose is the one we don't like :p
05:21<andythenorth>so leaving OpenTTD on FFWD at 100% of 1 core might trigger that
05:21<andythenorth>Timberwolf 'lol' :)
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05:21<andythenorth>and macs have piss poor thermals, so it might just be nerfing the clock speed because it's now red hot
05:22<andythenorth>I _still_ think something about accruing news messages triggers performance issues, but that's my pet theory right? No reliable evidence
05:22<TrueBrain>well, I asked you for some basic stuff, and all I get back is a lot of text :P So I cannot really help you from here :)
05:22<JGR>On the news FPS issue, one thing that I've noticed is that the whole status bar is redrawn every tick if there are no more ticker items to show, this can be noticeable if there is nothing else happening
05:23<TrueBrain>JGR: lol, that sounds silly :D
05:24<TrueBrain>hmm, odd, news is done in the draw-tick after all
05:24<TrueBrain>so why is it not 60fps smooth
05:26<andythenorth>my conclusion was 'this is junk data' but tell me if you want more :)
05:27<TrueBrain>which ones had news opening andythenorth ?
05:27<TrueBrain>the second?
05:27<Xaroth>Timberwolf: I use m*n station sizing because it makes it easier to see the total catchment area of a station (read: PAX). drag and drop works in situations where I don't have to care about that (read: non-PAX)
05:27<andythenorth>none, the news opening isn't a cause of performance slow down
05:27<andythenorth>it's a cause of performance speed up
05:27<TrueBrain>so now you confuse me completely :D
05:27<andythenorth>like I said, it's counter-intuitive
05:27<TrueBrain>you started this conversation with a movie that opening news is an fps impact? :D
05:28<TrueBrain>so what is the problem exactly :)
05:28<andythenorth>I made the video because nobody believed me
05:28<andythenorth>the problem is that accruing lots of news messages reliably co-incides with reduced FPS
05:28<andythenorth>even if they're never displayed
05:29<andythenorth>but it's not the only cause of low FPS, so it might just be coincidence
05:29<TrueBrain>but it is a way you can reproduce it with
05:29<TrueBrain>so, if I get you right
05:29<TrueBrain>your FF slows down
05:29<TrueBrain>if you get more news?
05:29<andythenorth>it also slows down with no news
05:29<TrueBrain>okay, if you load a game, do not FF, wait for a lot of news
05:29<TrueBrain>than FF
05:29<TrueBrain>does that change anything?
05:29<andythenorth>let's see
05:30<TrueBrain>nice JGR, lets upstream that :D
05:31<andythenorth>being cold about it, I think 'the game has slowed down for some reason after some time has passed on FFWD' coincides with 'the game has generated news because it has been running for a while'
05:31<TrueBrain>that is what I want to rule out, yes
05:31<LordAro>gotta love a while loop that ends with "return"
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>those are great
05:32<andythenorth>ha I can't change the news settings :)
05:32<andythenorth>one thing at a time
05:32<TrueBrain>funny .. news wants to move at 15ms per step ...
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>"if you ever manage to correctly finish a complete loop, the loop ends". very reminiscent of groundhog day
05:32<TrueBrain>while master has the resolution at 30ms
05:32<TrueBrain>so its animation is always jerky
05:35<TrueBrain>not much we can do about that in the current way it is set up
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>144fps support when? :p
05:36<TrueBrain>with my PR, no problem
05:37<TrueBrain>just not the default :)
05:37<TrueBrain>JGR: will you upstream that patch yourself, or you want me to do it? (I am fine with either)
05:37<JGR>I've rebasing it now, won't be a minute
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>also, fine-grained vehicle movement on x4 zoom
05:38<LordAro>steady on now
05:38<TrueBrain>right, a FF dropdown of some kind .. how to do that .. hmmmmm
05:38<TrueBrain>so many choices
05:38<_dp_>hey, I use 1x7 stations! :p
05:39<LordAro>TrueBrain: i was expecting something like the railtype selector dropdown
05:39<LordAro>i.e. remembers previous setting
05:39<TrueBrain>yeah .. the button should just be toggle-able like it is now
05:39<TrueBrain>and something to select the speed itself
05:40<TrueBrain>we don't have a dot you can drag along a line, do we?
05:40<TrueBrain>as doing it in a list might just be a bit annoyingly long list
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05:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8691: Fix: Unnecessary status bar redraws when there is no news to show
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>x2, x4, x8, infinite?
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>how many choices do we need?
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>x100? x1000?
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>does that really make a difference?
05:42<andythenorth>I can't find any meaningful connection between frequency of news and FFWD speed; putting it down to co-incidence
05:42<_dp_>dropdown for ff doesn't sound like a good idea :P
05:43<andythenorth>stopping or starting vehicles makes a HUGE difference to FFWD, no surprise :D
05:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8691: Fix: Unnecessary status bar redraws when there is no news to show
05:43<TrueBrain>tnx JGR
05:45<Timberwolf>andythenorth: Does it slow down if you make your tracks more wiggly? :)
05:46<arikover>Hi! o/
05:46<andythenorth>Timberwolf yes! How did you guess?
05:46<andythenorth>what is provably hella-slow is opening the 'all trains' window
05:47<NGC3982>uhm, im noticing that my server is turning up twice in the server list
05:47<andythenorth>cuts FFWD from ~30x to ~24x to me at default size on my viewport
05:47<andythenorth>making the window larger cuts it further
05:47<andythenorth>windowshading the window restores FPS
05:47<Timberwolf>andythenorth: I suspect that will be vehicle sprite chain resolution (certainly the case for wiggly tracks)
05:47<andythenorth>I guess drawing pixels is a burden :)
05:47<NGC3982>may that be because the host ( is reachable both with or without ssl?
05:48*andythenorth considers testing a Horse without all the varaction 2 stuff
05:48<_dp_>NGC3982, I anything I'd guess IPv6
05:48<JGR>The all vehicles windows are redrawn much too often if you have a lot of vehicles
05:48<LordAro>NGC3982: OTTD doesn't use SSL, so no
05:48<Timberwolf>The "all trains" window is one of the highest-density sources of trains to redraw.
05:49<JGR>The whole window is refreshed if a vehicle is updated, even if it's not actually visible with the current filter/scroll position
05:49<JGR>I've got some stuff to get rid of that in my branch
05:49<Timberwolf>Oh wow - yes, that'd do it.
05:49<NGC3982>oh lol i see my LAN game
05:49<NGC3982>_dp_, LordAro: i see. thank you.
05:50<LordAro>NGC3982: sounds like you've got some funky networking going on
05:50<Timberwolf>I was thinking it was just a lot of trains because you wouldn't get that many even carefully lining them up on multiple rows of diagonal track but yeah, if it's drawing everything that could possibly be in the window regardless of whether it's actually in the window...
05:50<LordAro>i wouldn't expect both IPv4 & IPv6 to make a difference to servers displayed
05:51<andythenorth>the larger the window, the more the FFWD speed drop
05:51<andythenorth>so there's something extra going on also
05:51<JGR>@Timberwolf, it doesn't actually draw everything in the list, just the visible ones. It's that non-visible vehicles can trigger redrawing of all the visible ones.
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05:55<Timberwolf>1.11 will be such a milestone if all of this makes it in. 17 years in and suddenly the performance and visible smoothness take a massive leap.
05:55<andythenorth>I have a stupid recursive vehicle check running in the graphics chain
05:55<TrueBrain>NGC3982: what server-list? Ingame, or on our website?
05:55<NGC3982>in game
05:55<NGC3982>im having other issues
05:55<TrueBrain>LAN game?
05:55<andythenorth>removing that check increases avg FFWD factor from 8x to 10x with vehicle list window open
05:56<andythenorth>windowshading the window gives FFWD factor of 30x
05:56<NGC3982>TrueBrain: yes, i manually added 192.168..-game and forgot to delete it.
05:56<TrueBrain>that makes sense ;)
05:56*andythenorth wonders how evil Horse is
05:56<TrueBrain>our LAN discovery is also not the greatest
05:56<TrueBrain>but it works, I guess :)
05:57<Timberwolf>andythenorth: How many 5-tile trains can you build in game before it drops below 30fps in 1.10?
05:57*andythenorth guessing
05:57<NGC3982>my server log tells me that advertising on master server is successfull, but then i get "received a packet with mismatching size from" and i cannot join my game. in the server list, i can see it (but not with the host but with <external ip>:port) and it say the server is offline
05:57<andythenorth>not going to actually try :)
05:57<NGC3982>i dont really know where to start looking
05:58<andythenorth>hmm well
05:58<andythenorth>at 9am I was going to start drawing Freightliner 'swoosh' livery in 8bit pixels
05:58*andythenorth distractions
05:58<TrueBrain>NGC3982: <- this your server?
05:59<Timberwolf>Timberwolf's Trains is really punishing, you can only get about 300 before it starts having noticeable performance impact on a midrange i5, if you use a lot of the 9/8 and larger vehicles.
05:59<TrueBrain>okay, so a few things first: master-server lists always by IP, not by host. On a technical level, there isn't really a way to know the host :)
05:59<TrueBrain>that is why you see IPs there
05:59<TrueBrain>this is true for almost all games out there btw :)
05:59<NGC3982>oh sorry, i ment server name
05:59<TrueBrain>the servername is correct, not?
06:00<TrueBrain>" #1 " ?
06:00<NGC3982>" #1" is correct on the site, but not in client.
06:00<TrueBrain>yes, this is the following problem
06:00<TrueBrain>this will most likely work for anyone outside your network
06:00<TrueBrain>but inside your network, it tries to query this server on the IP and port
06:00<TrueBrain>so the 10001
06:00*NGC3982 thought he hairpin:et it correctly
06:00<TrueBrain>I would suspect this packet gets routed wrong
06:00<NGC3982>i see
06:00<TrueBrain>it is normal that you have to use your internal IP to join servers on your local network
06:00<NGC3982>well, i can try it by accessing with 4g or something external
06:01<andythenorth>why aren't vehicles a simpler state machine? o_O
06:01*andythenorth says words
06:01<TrueBrain>this often has to do with how router redirect traffic etc
06:01<TrueBrain>this is why you still see an IP + port
06:01<TrueBrain>as it cannot query the server for more details
06:01<TrueBrain>clients get from the master-server a huge list of IP+ports to query
06:01<TrueBrain>and they query them again for the exact details
06:01<TrueBrain>(as the info on the master-server is lagging behind a few minutes)
06:02<TrueBrain>from my computer, I can query your server just fine
06:02<TrueBrain>and even join, as seen in chat :)
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06:04<NGC3982>thanks a bunch
06:04<TrueBrain>no worries
06:04<TrueBrain>enjoy the game :)
06:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
06:04<andythenorth>FIRS industries also have measurable effect on FFWD speed
06:04<andythenorth>according to the 100% scientific method of putting the viewport over a single industry, then after a minute or so, magic bulldozing it
06:06<JGR>Some of the tile animation stuff has a noticeable performance cost
06:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
06:07<_dp_>yeah, was just typing the same question xD
06:07<TrueBrain>andythenorth: the question is, is that a problem
06:07<andythenorth>I suspect it's not very interesting
06:07<andythenorth>drawing more things takes longer
06:07<andythenorth>drawing animated things takes longer than that
06:08<TrueBrain>static const byte * const arrangements[] = { arrange14, arrange15, arrange16, arrange17, arrange18, arrange19, arrange20 };
06:08<andythenorth>the interesting part is to eliminate industries from the visible viewport if trying to test other performance things
06:08<TrueBrain>wtf ..... I don't even ... wtf ... is this .. GUI doing?
06:09<andythenorth>I was testing earlier and the game built 2 industries in my viewport whilst testing, which is non-negligible affect
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06:09<_dp_>TrueBrain, let me guess, adjusts toolbar buttons for different widths?
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06:09<TrueBrain>I think so .. but the comments are rather vague
06:09<TrueBrain>right, lets just ignore this
06:09<TrueBrain>and continue on my quest
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06:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
06:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
06:11<andythenorth>in a busy area of map, 7 industries cuts FFWD from 14x to 6x
06:11<TrueBrain>JGR: ironically, that is the only call to SetWindowWidgetDirty that uses a magic number :D
06:11<TrueBrain>the one bad example :P :D
06:11<andythenorth>but the area is full of trains, and the trains have much more impact
06:11<andythenorth>stopping all the visible trains, FFWD goes to 50x
06:12<TrueBrain>andythenorth: if you can share your savegame, I can check if this happens on other videodrivers too
06:13<TrueBrain>WID_S_LEFT, ///< Left part of the statusbar; date is shown there.
06:13<TrueBrain>I wonder why it isn't called WID_S_DATE
06:13<TrueBrain>same for RIGHT :P
06:13<TrueBrain>but okay, that is just me :)
06:13<andythenorth>TrueBrain you'd need a stack of unreleased grfs, I _can_ zip them if you want? :)
06:13*andythenorth is the worst tester ever for this reason
06:15<TrueBrain>its okay, at least you don't write 8 identical questions in a row to ask a simple thing :)
06:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison updated pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
06:16<JGR>Should be sorted now
06:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
06:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8689: Fix cc39fa9: New orders are non-stop by default
06:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8691: Fix: Unnecessary status bar redraws when there is no news to show
06:17<andythenorth>TrueBrain forum DM
06:18<andythenorth>think I got all the grfs :P
06:18<andythenorth>so many grfs in my openttd dir
06:18<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I only see a message with "..." :D
06:18<andythenorth>oh this new files interface :)
06:19<andythenorth>I normally test general FFWD performance in SE corner of map
06:20<andythenorth>then try other areas
06:20<TrueBrain>had to download a few grfs from BaNaNaS, but that is fine
06:20<andythenorth>SE corner gives pretty reliable 32x for some time, until whatever performance hog / throttling is hit after 10 or so years on FFWD
06:21<TrueBrain>Eggweed Docks etc?
06:22<andythenorth>I push map all the way to SE, so it's mostly black
06:22<andythenorth>just sea, rocks, black tiles
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06:22<andythenorth>gives 32x
06:22<TrueBrain>k .. doing ~7x simulation on FF
06:22<TrueBrain>(at 60fps)
06:23<andythenorth>Eggweed Docks area gives about 10x game speed factor
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06:23<TrueBrain>let me disable autosave too
06:23<andythenorth>centering viewport on Slugsburg Train Depot #9 gives about 6x game speed factor
06:23<TrueBrain>I am now in SE, doing 7x
06:24<TrueBrain>it sometimes drop to 5x
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06:24<andythenorth>what screen resolution?
06:24<TrueBrain>doing 10 years takes me a bit longer :P
06:24*andythenorth changes
06:25<andythenorth>reducing screen resolution gives me 32x in SE corner
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06:25<TrueBrain>if you open the graph of Gameloop
06:25<TrueBrain>you see that there are some nasty spikes happening
06:25<TrueBrain>at those points the simulation drops
06:26<TrueBrain>but otherwise, if this is what you mean, that is nothing special really
06:26<andythenorth>I'm going to run it to 2050 or so
06:26<LordAro>are those "nasty spikes" actually "the game" ? :p
06:26<TrueBrain>monthly loops etc, yes
06:26<andythenorth>they have negligible impact on FFWD factor
06:27<TrueBrain>if I look at Saggington South, performance drops a lot :P
06:27<TrueBrain>takes a lot more effort to draw that :D
06:27<TrueBrain>but that too is to be expected, honestly
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06:27<andythenorth>go to Slugsburg Train Depot #9
06:27<andythenorth>I think it's all as expected
06:27<andythenorth>then stop all trains, difference should be huge but expected
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06:28<TrueBrain>so I think the slowdowns you have been talking about for months is something we just call "the game" :D
06:29<TrueBrain>this mostly becomes a problem if the simulation goes below 1x without FF :)
06:29<andythenorth>I think there are lots of causal factors, and we don't have a stable benchmark, and it would be hard to create one
06:29<andythenorth>which makes the mac performance reports hard to understand
06:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8692: Fix: Whole status bar instead of money widget refreshed on money change
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06:29<TrueBrain>well, if this is what people have been reporting
06:30<TrueBrain>that has nothing to do with "mac"
06:30<TrueBrain>but just a wrong perception of what is going on :)
06:30<andythenorth>well my numbers include all of Michi's changes
06:30<andythenorth>which gave a plausible 10x improvement to FFWD for most of the map
06:30<LordAro>and that's with your terrible i9 :p
06:30<TrueBrain>the faster we make rendering, the more time there is for ff
06:31<TrueBrain>this holds true for all drivers, and why I look forward to OpenGL
06:31<andythenorth>and michi's changes also hold the non-FFWD fps at a 1.02x or so
06:31<TrueBrain>but we should aim for a stable game at non-FF
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06:31<TrueBrain>balancing around "how fast FF is" is a silly measurement :) Just a fun one, but not one with a lot of content :)
06:31<TrueBrain>with my PR and OpenGL PR, you can hit 9999x simulation speed on empty maps :P
06:32<TrueBrain>pretty stable even :D
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's a common problem with metrics. people tend to focus on "easy to measure" instead of "actually helpful"
06:32<andythenorth>ok I'm now in 2044, and FFWD factor has dropped from 32x to 19x
06:32<andythenorth>what's unknown, is that just my mac thermally throttling?
06:32*andythenorth lets it cool down
06:33<andythenorth>it's red hot to touch currently
06:33<TrueBrain>so yeah, if people have been reporting "mac is slow" because their FF was too low .. we can just close those tickets :P
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06:33<TrueBrain>I mean, mine is 5x, where yours is 32x
06:33<andythenorth>nah, the mac non-FFWD game speed was also running at 0.6x or 0.8x sometimes
06:33<TrueBrain>so that means I should also create a ticket SDL is slow? :D
06:33<andythenorth>but with no reproducibility
06:33<andythenorth>I think that should be gone now
06:33<TrueBrain>we have to be careful not to hunt our own tail here :)
06:34<TrueBrain>so as long as you report 10+x simulation speed no FF, I am happy with the games you are running
06:34<andythenorth>TL;DR I'd like to draw a line under mac peformance reports
06:34<TrueBrain>right, time for lunch .. after that ... fiddling with how "FF dropdown" should look
06:35<TrueBrain>I wonder how mad people get if I add a 0.5x
06:35<andythenorth>youtube 'play slow' button
06:35<andythenorth>letting the mac cool down _might_ have restored FPS
06:36<andythenorth>didn't help that the game built an animated FIRS industry directly behind the FPS window, and I didn't notice :P
06:36<andythenorth>testing is lolz
06:37<TrueBrain>Might need a "network tick" too, which is used for the rate of docommands
06:37*Timberwolf lives in a 1930s house with a few rooms that don't (yet) have anything covering the floorboards, having a nice toasty Mac to work on has been a feature.
06:37*andythenorth needs the CPU temperature measuring thing
06:37<andythenorth>Timberwolf does it keep the spiders away too?
06:37*andythenorth has similar floorboards, the spiders climb through the cracks
06:38<LordAro>it's funny, with full animation turned on i get 5x FF
06:38<Timberwolf>We're not too bad for spiders, mice are a problem though.
06:38<LordAro>with it turned off, 350x
06:38<JGR>@Truebrain, that sounds like frame_freq?
06:39<andythenorth>LordAro full animation is such a pig :)
06:39<LordAro>normal run seemingly sitting at 0.95x though, which is a bit odd
06:39<Timberwolf>I should probably go round checking all the airbricks are rodent-proof.
06:39<andythenorth>traps :P
06:40<JGR>LordAro, how much water you have on screen will probably make a significant difference there
06:40<TrueBrain>JGR: yes, but it is now coupled to the game tick, so they cannot work independently :)
06:40<Timberwolf>Yep, the traps get quite sad when you're emptying them though :(
06:40<TrueBrain>LordAro: with my PR? :)
06:40<andythenorth>Timberwolf this did catch us a mouse, using nutella as bait
06:40<LordAro>JGR: 15x over land :)
06:40<LordAro>TrueBrain: no, this is master
06:40<andythenorth>then you have the problem of, now we have a mouse
06:41<TrueBrain>Master misses deadlines constantly, so 0.95 isn't weird
06:41<andythenorth>I have also caught a mouse by pure skill, using a colander
06:41*andythenorth second career, rodent catcher
06:41<TrueBrain>Check my PR, should fix it :)
06:41<LordAro>ah, very good
06:41<TrueBrain>Also your FF speed
06:41<TrueBrain>Would love to know if that is true
06:41<TrueBrain>So please try
06:41<andythenorth>LordAro performance is so wildly varying depending on the contents of viewport :)
06:44<LordAro>why does the performance window have a limit of 9999 ? :p
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>digits are expensive
06:54<LordAro>TrueBrain: something a bit weird - gui windows are being closed before the rest of the window changes - e.g. abandon game -> yes -> <window disappears for a frame> -> return to menu
06:54<LordAro>same for new game
06:54<LordAro>doesn't happen every time, presumably something to do with the gui/game ticks syncing up
06:56<TrueBrain>hmm, yes
06:56<TrueBrain>closing of windows is handled by the draw-tick, I guess
06:57<TrueBrain>yeah, that looks a bit weird, especially as returning to menu takes a long time
06:57<TrueBrain>the question is, does it need fixing .. hmm
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>when i was looking through the screenshot code recently, i noticed there's code to hide the console on taking a screenshot, but none that hides the recently-added "select a screenshot type" window
07:01<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i've been irritated by that for a while, could be good to add
07:01<LordAro>TrueBrain: yes, imo
07:01<LordAro>bit confusing (albeit briefly) about what's happening
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07:02<TrueBrain>this is already the case in several other places
07:02<TrueBrain>where windows close too early
07:02<JGR>I added something for that here:
07:02<TrueBrain>so let me rephrase: does it need fixing in my PR :)
07:03<LordAro>i'm only referring to your PR :)
07:04<TrueBrain>it is always this balance, how much stuff do you put in a single PR :)
07:04<TrueBrain>on a few other places this also behaves poorly, in master already
07:04<TrueBrain>so should we address those all at once
07:04<TrueBrain>can we find them all :D
07:05<LordAro>well it makes existing issues more obvious
07:05<LordAro>so the commit fixing them should come first, but it should be fixed in the same PR :p
07:05<TrueBrain>if we go down that route, can such PR ever be done?
07:05<TrueBrain>as there are other side-effects becoming apparent from this PR
07:06<TrueBrain>that always have been there, but people are less likely to "see"
07:06<TrueBrain>that is the balance I am trying to find :)
07:06<nielsm>I've been thinking a bit, with that stupid argument on tt-forums, would it perhaps be an idea to add extra text to the landscape selection button tooltips?
07:06<LordAro>but some are more obvious than others
07:06<TrueBrain>I am not disagreeing it should be fixed btw :) Just thinking about what is the best approach here
07:07<TrueBrain>nielsm: saying what? (honest question)
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07:08<TrueBrain>LordAro: well, that is the fun thing: while toying with the UI, I found many weird things that are obvious to me, but nobody reported any of them :P
07:08<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'm reporting at least one of them!
07:08<TrueBrain>and I am acknowleding it :D
07:08<LordAro>it's one that was immediately obvious to me
07:09<LordAro>and one that everyone will experience
07:10<nielsm>"Select 'temperate' landscape style. A lush terrain with endless possibilities." "Select 'sub-arctic" landscape style. A cold, mountaneous terrain where the snow presents a challenge." "Select 'sub-tropical' landscape style. A warm landscape, where the flat desert and mountaneous rainforest regions must be connected to prosper." "Select 'toyland' landscape style. Despite the playful appearance,
07:10<nielsm>this fantasy world presents a real challenge."
07:10<nielsm>something like that
07:10<TrueBrain>that is the part I try to balance .. how big of an impact is it really? As the mouse hangs during that time anyway, which is another thing I find rather annoying
07:10<TrueBrain>especially if you have many NewGRFs
07:10*andythenorth wonders if someone could draw the chart of how 'max height level', 'flatness', 'roughness' and 'variety distribution' interact
07:10<TrueBrain>so I wonder if that shouldn't be addressed a different way
07:10<andythenorth>and would it look like?
07:10<TrueBrain>to be clear, not arguing it should be fixed LordAro , I just wonder what the scope of my PR should be :)
07:10<LordAro>andythenorth: 4D charts are quite difficult to draw
07:10<TrueBrain>nielsm: not a bad idea :)
07:11<andythenorth>and also a version where the water amount means that not enough height levels can be provided
07:11<andythenorth>also the sematics of 'flatness' I didn't get into
07:11<andythenorth>because 'le oof'
07:16<Timberwolf>nielsm: "Despite the playful appearance, this fantasy world will sear your eyeballs into raw sludge within 20-25 minutes" if the user has "Original (Windows)" or "Original (DOS)" selected as their baseset.
07:16<TrueBrain>LordAro: mainly, I have been wondering if we shouldn't thread the GameLoop instead of the drawing loop, and keep the mouse working during "though times"
07:16<TrueBrain>for example, the abandon game, hangs the game for 3+ seconds for me
07:16<TrueBrain>(sometimes with sometimes without the dialog :P)
07:16<LordAro>TrueBrain: yeah, that's not ideal
07:17<LordAro>Timberwolf: blasphemy
07:17<TrueBrain>but it is a pretty huge change, I have noticed :D
07:19<TrueBrain>hmm, so when you click "Ok", the window itself does a "delete this", so if the draw-tick hits before the game-tick, the window will not be drawn
07:20<TrueBrain>this is mostly because our game-mode stuff is always delayed
07:21<TrueBrain>(changes to game-mode)
07:21<TrueBrain>this is where "hanging" helps out
07:22<TrueBrain>if we want to keep the UI interactive, that won't work either
07:23<TrueBrain>a solution would be to not close those UIs in those cases, as the switching of the game-mode will do that anyway
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07:25<TrueBrain>multiplayer already does that, lol
07:27<nielsm>I thought about adding volume sliders to the Game Options window where you can switch sound and music sets
07:27<nielsm>so you can adjust the volume from the main menu
07:27<Timberwolf>Oh yes, that would be nice.
07:27<TrueBrain>and not force you to go ingame anymore to change volume?
07:27<TrueBrain>that sounds like a regression
07:27<TrueBrain>I like that you have to start a new game before you can change volume!
07:27<Xaroth>wait, making it easier for users?!?
07:27<TrueBrain>sorry ... it has to come out ... :P
07:27<TrueBrain>go for it nielsm , sounds like a good idea :)
07:28*Timberwolf prepares his "being assaulted by HONK HONK when you open the game is vital and shouldn't be changed" ticket.
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07:29<Timberwolf>Which titlegame is it that has the boat depart almost immediately as you load the game, anyway?
07:34<andythenorth>also crossing bells :)
07:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
07:36<TrueBrain>LordAro: for now, fixed the issue you pointed out with a bit of a hack .. I want to fix it properly, but I rather keep that for another PR
07:36<TrueBrain>at least it no longer regresses
07:36*JGR is a big fan of NoSound and NoMusic
07:37<TrueBrain>there is so much work to do here .. we have so many different ways of fixing problems stacked on top of each other :D Modal windows solved a similar problem as draw-threads did in a completely different way :P
07:40<TrueBrain>nielsm: also a good improvement for music, if there is not a valid music player, that it doesn't try 10 news songs a second constantly all the time all day every day :D
07:41<nielsm>TrueBrain definitely yes...
07:41<TrueBrain>the fast-foward button is funny .. if you enable it, it disables itself during autosave .. but if you press it just at that moment, you don't disable it
07:41<TrueBrain>so sometimes you need a few clicks before you get it disabled
07:42<TrueBrain>why does it disable during autosave?
07:42<TrueBrain>Also turn off fast-forward cause with that saving takes Aaaaages
07:42<TrueBrain>someone was melodramatic :P
07:43<TrueBrain>ah, it restores the state as it was when saving started
07:44<TrueBrain>when threaded, I would argue, it is no longer true saving takes "ages" when FF is on
07:44<TrueBrain>as it happens on another thread
07:44<TrueBrain>is that a wrong assumption?
07:44<LordAro>what happens when FF is so fast that it hits another autosave before finishing the last one?
07:45<TrueBrain>assert(!_sl.saveinprogress); for sure
07:45<LordAro>that's probably why then :)
07:45<TrueBrain>not what the comment says :)
07:45<TrueBrain>but it is a fair point
07:46<TrueBrain>so much global state ...
07:46<TrueBrain>while saving is pretty isolated
07:46<TrueBrain>just the state of what saving is doing, is global :)
07:47<TrueBrain>you can spend weeks in this code :P
07:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
07:47<JGR>If saving is still happening when another autosave happens, the new autosave request is just dropped silently
07:48<TrueBrain>if (!_do_autosave) ShowErrorMessage(STR_ERROR_SAVE_STILL_IN_PROGRESS, INVALID_STRING_ID, WL_ERROR);
07:49<TrueBrain>but it is still a valid point, disabling FF during autosave makes it less likely this to happen
07:49<TrueBrain>on the other hand .. do you want saves that quickly :P
07:51<TrueBrain>but okay, lets not step into this rabbit hole ..
07:59<TrueBrain>running the game at 0.25x the speed is funny
07:59<TrueBrain>it shows graphical issues a lot better
08:00<LordAro>could add it if newgrf_developer is enabled :)
08:02<TrueBrain>the engine of the truck jumps up many pixels
08:02<TrueBrain>and the wagon clips in the bridge
08:03<TrueBrain>other than that, it is really funny to play at 0.25x :D
08:03<TrueBrain>so much time to do things
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, they could have used var 62...
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>or 45
08:05<TrueBrain>it does, however, require subpixel vehicle movement :P
08:05<TrueBrain>they now jump constantly :D
08:05<TrueBrain>as in, move fluent for 4 pixels, stand still for 1 frame, move again
08:05<TrueBrain>rounding errors are a bitch
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>also, discrepancy between diagonal and straight movement speed
08:06<TrueBrain> <- derailment!
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>and distance distortion
08:06<LordAro>TrueBrain: those have always been obvious :p
08:06<TrueBrain>the latter for sure
08:06<TrueBrain>the first I always saw being weird
08:06<TrueBrain>but could never put my finger on it
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's part of why i started CETS, but that's not really been optimized either
08:07<Timberwolf>Same, in fact my 12/8 and longer vehicles are worse than default.
08:08<TrueBrain>so, FF ... 2x, 4x, 8x, 16?
08:08<TrueBrain>2x, 4x, 6x, 8x, 10x?
08:08<Timberwolf>Well... not worse than if you had a 12/8 vehicle using the 8-sprite rotation scheme, but definitely worse than an 8/8 vehicle.
08:08<LordAro>16, imo
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: maybe x2, x5, x10?
08:09<TrueBrain>I will toy with them all
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>progression between x8 and x10 seems pointless
08:09<Timberwolf>I like powers of 2.
08:10<Timberwolf>x2, x4, x8, "show off my single-thread CPU performance"
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said earlier
08:10<LordAro>"maximum", if you were wanting an actual name for it :p
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08:11<LordAro>"you might miss a decade if you're not paying attention"
08:12<TrueBrain>I know how I would like it in the GUI, but we don't have a widget for that yet ... and inventing something new might not be the best thing
08:12<TrueBrain>on the other hand, it might be useful for many other places too :P
08:12<Timberwolf>Make it like the swing controls from old golf games, where you hold down the button longer before releasing for more acceleration.
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08:12<Timberwolf>It can start shaking once you're above 16x,
08:12<TrueBrain>haha :D
08:13<LordAro>something up with ottdc today
08:18<TrueBrain>poor ottdc :(
08:19<NGC3982>what does the c stand for?
08:22<TrueBrain>okay, turns out, 16x is a bit silly
08:22<TrueBrain>so 2x, 4x, 8x seems to be sufficient
08:22<TrueBrain>needs more testing ofc
08:23<TrueBrain>and 2-4-8 or 2-5-10 doesn't really matter at that point
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08:25<andythenorth>so 0.25x is new daylength?
08:27<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so 0.25x is new daylength? <-- not how it works :p
08:27<andythenorth>for shame
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08:31<TrueBrain>depends on how you define daylength
08:31<TrueBrain>hmm, dropdown feels weird
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08:36<TrueBrain>you don't see what you have selected anymore after selecting
08:36<TrueBrain>I wonder ... what about a new window to see your game speed
08:37<TrueBrain>where you can select what you want
08:37<TrueBrain>and possibly even what you are currently reaching
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08:38*andythenorth seriously considering defining a 512 colour swatch
08:38<TrueBrain>what is preventing you?
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08:42<andythenorth>having a clear idea of 'why'
08:42<andythenorth>I use so much of the TTD palette for 'magic' recolouring of my own, it restricts choices
08:43<andythenorth>but there are 13 'wasted' slots for pinks, I could use those
08:44<andythenorth>(this is all pre-processed in my compile)
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09:00<supermop_Home_>Timberwolf make it like the spin control in Tekken Bowl
09:01<supermop_Home_>with an arrow swinging back and forth from left to right an you have to time it to get the value you want
09:01<andythenorth>I made flash games like that
09:01<andythenorth>quite addict
09:03<supermop_Home_>TrueBrain who's truck is that?
09:03<TrueBrain>ask andythenorth , his game :P
09:03<TrueBrain>I really do not know :)
09:03<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ Hog
09:03<supermop_Home_>love the grille on front
09:04<supermop_Home_>quite nice work
09:04<supermop_Home_>andythenorth make the start vehicle button like that.... where you got to get it lined up or the vehicle will careen out of control into the gutter
09:05<supermop_Home_>hmm now i want to work on flume more
09:05<supermop_Home_>and make splashes vs wakes when accelerating or decelerating
09:07<supermop_Home_>currently i made the logs spark
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09:13<TrueBrain>LordAro: possibly stupid question: I have 2 enums, 1 for the widget, 1 for the internal state. They are in the same order. Is it fine to cast this, or better to have a switch-case matching them?
09:14<LordAro>why are there 2 enums if they're otherwise identical?
09:14<TrueBrain>as I said: widgets vs internal state
09:14<LordAro>why not reuse one or the other?
09:14<LordAro>or define one in terms of the other
09:14<TrueBrain>because all widgets enums start with WID_
09:15<TrueBrain>they strictly seen have nothing to do with each other
09:15<TrueBrain>so that is not really logic too
09:15<TrueBrain>they just happen to be in the same order
09:15<Samu>I'm trying to understand what kind of ordering is this
09:15<LordAro>probably a switch statement is the "technically correct" solution then
09:15<LordAro>though a cast + static_assert might be enough
09:15<TrueBrain>it feels a bit weird, but I have no real problems with it :D
09:16<TrueBrain>no WID_ value is ever defined btw, so yeah, that doesn't seem the correct solution
09:16<TrueBrain>k, will do switch for now
09:16<TrueBrain>people can shoot at it later :P
09:17<Samu>if p1 is 67 and p2 is 50, p1 > p2 so a swap is made
09:17<Samu>then returns (50 << 8) + 67
09:18<Samu>12867 percentage
09:18<Samu>very confusing
09:22<LordAro>Samu: it's not "percentage" as such
09:22<LordAro>it's just combining the numbers in such a way that you can compare 2 numbers at once
09:23<LordAro>e.g. if a second industry is p1=85, p2=50
09:23<LordAro>even though p2 is the same, it can still compare differently in an easy way
09:24<LordAro>i'm guessing this is relating to industries with more producing cargos
09:27<LordAro>i suspect the best solution would be to compare the average produced cargo percentage across all cargoes
09:29<Samu>i went with sum of percentages
09:29<Samu>but i'm thinking about doing average of percentages
09:29<LordAro>sum of will favour industries with more cargoes
09:29<LordAro>which the whole thing is trying to avoid
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09:39<TrueBrain>not too happy about 1/4th and 1/2th
09:39<TrueBrain>otherwise this seems to be the most intuitive solution I have found
09:41<TrueBrain>bit better I guess
09:45<LordAro>i'm not sure i like the inconsistency
09:45<TrueBrain>open for suggestions
09:45<LordAro>why not 100% 200% etc?
09:45<TrueBrain>I rather have icons, honestly, but ........ yeah :P
09:46<TrueBrain>that looks really odd too, let me create that for you
09:46<LordAro>yeah, alternatively get Andy to draw some icons :p
09:46<LordAro>then you don't need the window, as you can display the current speed in the toolbar
09:46<LordAro>mm, too long
09:46<TrueBrain>you still need the window ;)
09:47<TrueBrain>but yes, showing it in the toolbar would be cherry-on-top
09:47<LordAro>yeah, but it could be a dropdown instead of a window :p
09:47<TrueBrain>no, dropdown really doesn't work
09:47<LordAro>not really a fan of the window
09:47<TrueBrain>I tried :)
09:47<TrueBrain>I can give you a build if you really like, but it is really annoying to use
09:47<TrueBrain>what I would prefer, is having a slider you can use
09:47<TrueBrain>but that would require me to invent a widget
09:47<TrueBrain>not sure I am up for that :D
09:48<TrueBrain>few things with dropdown: enabling and selecting become a bit weird
09:48<TrueBrain>does only clicking the button enable/disable it?
09:48<TrueBrain>or do you always have to click a value
09:49<LordAro>in my head, the former
09:49<TrueBrain>I tried both, it both felt like shit
09:49<TrueBrain>the former only works if the top item is "enable/disable"
09:49<TrueBrain>as that is how those menus work
09:49<TrueBrain>so if you only want to enable/disable FF, you get this dropdown jumping at you
09:49<TrueBrain>and yes, it for sure needs icons in that case
09:49<TrueBrain>as otherwise you have no clue on what speed you are
09:50<LordAro>but the railtype dropdown preselects the last used item?
09:50<TrueBrain>all together, it feels like it was trying to fit a square in a circle
09:50<LordAro>mm, fair
09:50<TrueBrain>this approach I took now many games have
09:50<TrueBrain>so it feels a bit more natural to me
09:50<TrueBrain>but I might be COMPLETELY biased :D
09:50<LordAro>hang on, there is a slider widget - in the sound/music window
09:50<TrueBrain>that is a different type of slider, but yes
09:51<TrueBrain>so I can rip that :D
09:51<TrueBrain>but it took me, what, 2 hours to make this GUI
09:51<TrueBrain>so I am a bit scared :P
09:51<TrueBrain>for sure I am going to try :D
09:51<LordAro>just make it have 4 points, rather than 100 or whatever
09:51<TrueBrain>haha, yes
09:51<TrueBrain>discrete values :D
09:51<TrueBrain>what I also want to toy with, is show above these buttons the current simulation speed
09:52<TrueBrain>so you can spot when your CPU is not getting shit done
09:54<TrueBrain>music thing is custom drawn
09:54<TrueBrain>now the question .. do I make a new PR out of this, that is on top of the other
09:54<TrueBrain>or just push it in the same
09:56<TrueBrain>new PR is better
09:57<LordAro>yeah, new PR
09:58<TrueBrain>can I flip the fast-forward button when you slow down .... :D
09:58<TrueBrain>I love gimmicks
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09:59<nielsm>oh yeah that's right, when you have the code to let video drivers update the screen between game loops, you can also slow the speed down since lower tick rate won't affect input responsiveness
10:00<TrueBrain>purely by accident, all of this
10:00<TrueBrain>but I am liking it :D
10:00<nielsm>and well, you can technically adjust the game speed freely, not just in steps, by having a dynamic ms_per_tick
10:00<TrueBrain>nielsm: absolutely
10:00<TrueBrain>but not sure that makes for good UI
10:01<nielsm>yeah it'll be troublesome UI
10:01<nielsm>maybe have a console command if you really want to do it
10:01*andythenorth wonders what will happen to wording of 'game speed' when we do daylength :D
10:01<andythenorth>which is NOT NOW :)
10:01<TrueBrain>so currently I made it discrete values, and the videodriver translates it into ms
10:01<TrueBrain>but I can also push that a layer higher
10:01<nielsm>(that could also allow dedicated servers to adjust the game speed? unsure if that's a good idea)
10:01<TrueBrain>that the video driver gets an ms value
10:02<TrueBrain>well, I do think that is a good idea, honestly :)
10:02<TrueBrain>but it requires us to decouple network-ticks from game-ticks too
10:02<TrueBrain>say, a dedicated server runs at 10%
10:02<TrueBrain>it would also only allow 2 commands per second or something
10:02<TrueBrain>it would become a bit silly :P
10:02<nielsm>there is that one game server host that's received a lot of critique, one of the critiques I've heard is a claim that they intentionally run the game at a lower rate
10:03<TrueBrain>I guess that has to do with it also decreasing the responsiveness of the game :)
10:03<TrueBrain>as in master I think your game will also become as slow as the server, in terms of GUI
10:03<nielsm>it will yes
10:03<TrueBrain>not sure, honestly
10:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
10:03<TrueBrain>there is some coupling going on there
10:03<Samu>I have a feeling this is going to fail
10:05<Samu>enum struct or enum class?
10:05<LordAro>enum struct is not a thing
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10:05<Samu>enum struct SorterType : uint8
10:05<LordAro>oh wait
10:05<nielsm>uh maybe it means the same thing
10:05<Samu>it compiled
10:06<nielsm>but "enum class" is the normal thing to do
10:06<LordAro>so it does
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10:06<nielsm>"the keywords class and struct are exactly equivalent" it says
10:07<nielsm>so you should be writing "enum class" because "enum struct" will just confuse readers
10:07<Samu>ok, will change
10:09<Samu>linux failed
10:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8693: Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
10:10<Samu>'IndustryDirectoryWindow::SorterType' is not implicitly convertible to 'int'
10:11<nielsm>yes that's one of the features of enum class
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10:12<TrueBrain>LordAro: <- this was why I was asking :D Please let me know if that is just terrible :D (it most likely is :D)
10:13<TrueBrain>looking over my own patch, I think I am just going to call it _game_speed_multiplier, and allow the console to set any number .. I kinda like that idea nielsm :)
10:13<TrueBrain>so you can set it to 0.001 for all I care, up to 10000 for all I care
10:13<TrueBrain>might want to non-float it .. so ... "100" for regular
10:13<+glx>TrueBrain: order in game speed enum is weird
10:14<TrueBrain>glx: yeah, I fucked up there :P
10:14<nielsm>call the original/traditional fast-forward "Haugan"
10:14<TrueBrain>which I didn't notice as I used a switch to convert :D
10:14<nielsm>after the Yate Haugan
10:14<nielsm>"the game's haugan along"
10:15<TrueBrain>ah, plane
10:15<+glx>the unclickable plane
10:15<+glx>(without pausing)
10:16<TrueBrain>with 0.25 that is no longer true >:D
10:16<nielsm>or Hyperdart
10:17<TrueBrain>I really need to abstract the gameloop from the videodrivers .. this is just silly, the amount of copy/paste
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10:21<Samu>how do i covert to int?
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10:24<Samu>switch (this->industries.SortType()) returns a uint8 though
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10:27<Samu>then what is the point of uint8 here
10:28<Samu>const enum class SorterType : uint8
10:28<nielsm>the storage size
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10:28<nielsm>and permitted range of integral values
10:30<Samu>but ... it doesn't make sense, if it only works with int
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10:30<Samu>case static_cast<int>(IndustryDirectoryWindow::SorterType::IDW_SORT_BY_PRODUCTION):
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10:31<LordAro>Samu: cast SortType() to SorterType
10:31<LordAro>or better, make SortType return the correct type
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10:32<Samu>SortType is part of sortlist_type.h
10:32<Samu>better not change there
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10:37<Samu>ok i think i got it
10:37<Samu>let's see if linux still complains
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10:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
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10:38<Samu>switch (static_cast<IndustryDirectoryWindow::SorterType>(this->industries.SortType())) {
10:38<Samu>gets uglier
10:38<Samu>but ok
10:45*andythenorth might remove cargo_age_period from Horse
10:46<andythenorth>far as I can tell it really is useless
10:46<andythenorth>comparing vehicles with different values for it on same route produces no meaningful result
10:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8693: Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
10:46<Timberwolf>it does weird things.
10:47<Timberwolf>My preservation railways use extreme values (74 to 5*74) and it's... non-linear.
10:47<Timberwolf>You need something like a 192-tile route with 30mph trains for it to make a major difference.
10:48<Samu>Error: /home/runner/work/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/src/industry_gui.cpp:1315:2: error: ‘const’ can only be specified for objects and functions
10:48<andythenorth>I did a big test game and proved it has an effect in very artificial test situations
10:48<Samu>const enum class SorterType : uint8
10:48<Samu>it doesn't like const
10:48<andythenorth>but with cdist, transfers, delays on real game routes, varying load factors....
10:49<andythenorth>there's no sense that adjusting cargo_age_period up or down has any effect the player can control
10:49<TrueBrain>When we planned to go to Steam, I should have put some money how often people said: you are doing this because you go to Steam, right?
10:50<TrueBrain>I would made at least 3 times what-ever I bet on it already
10:50<Timberwolf>Late game with faster trains there aren't enough "age cargo" ticks between source and destination.
10:50<andythenorth>my route is about 160 tiles, so I thought it would trigger
10:50<Timberwolf>I like the assumption the development channel is organised and planned to this degree.
10:50<TrueBrain>like we are not just doing what-ever-the-fuck-we-want
10:51<Timberwolf>You don't have some secret grand anti-player plan?
10:52<andythenorth>even if we did, it wouldn't survive the first hour
10:52<andythenorth>and we'd never agree on it in the first place
10:52<Timberwolf>newgrf variables for defining and adding vehicles to loot crates, pls.
10:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
10:52<andythenorth>with GS support
10:52<andythenorth>but seriously, vehicle customisation
10:53<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: under it all, you often notice people expect we run OpenTTD like a company :) Like we can "force" people to do stuff or something :)
10:53<andythenorth>I mean we _could_ allow paying to customise vehicles, or unlock liveries as rewards
10:53<TrueBrain>it is cute :)
10:53<andythenorth>along with the assumption that "it's the players that make OpenTTD"
10:53<andythenorth>because without customers...what are we?
10:54*andythenorth mumbles
10:54<andythenorth>anyway, vehicle liveries when?
10:54<andythenorth>also can we have negative running costs? Instead of overflow?
10:54<TrueBrain>I just like the Steam comments most, as I am pretty sure nobody gives a shit about us going to Steam, or what the reviews will say :P
10:54<andythenorth>I want trains that earn income en-route
10:54<TrueBrain>(us = developers)
10:54*andythenorth intends to have pax coaches selling Kit-kats
10:54<andythenorth>and tea
10:55<TrueBrain>really like 0 fucks are given; it is nice to have Steam as distribution platform, but .. +0 :D
10:55<TrueBrain>guess I should not reply that on the forums :P
10:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
10:56<andythenorth>I typed a reply yesterday that said "please send me some fucks to give, because I looked in my bag of fucks and it's empty"
10:56<andythenorth>but can't say that on forums
10:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8693: Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed
10:56<TrueBrain>you are senior management on the forums, I have been told
10:56<TrueBrain>so yeah, you cannot :)
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10:56<andythenorth>I have never ever been granted any kind of responsibility in forums at all
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10:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
10:56<Timberwolf>A senior member of the community who should know better, no less!
10:56*andythenorth is just a user
10:56<TrueBrain>owh, member, not management, so that is better
10:57<andythenorth>I am down with that
10:57<andythenorth>what is earnt can be lost again
10:57<TrueBrain>and you get paid to be a senior member, so you should behave!
10:57<TrueBrain>and be professional
10:57<TrueBrain>and everything
10:57<andythenorth>by Steam
10:57<andythenorth>why are we being foolish?
10:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
10:57<TrueBrain>well, honestly, your replies were on the edge of bannable offense, so there was somewhat of a point :)
10:57<Timberwolf>You'll be in the news as a "community leader" the next time there's a study that shows OpenTTD players have poor vaccination takeup or something.
10:57<andythenorth>we should be sensibly discussing extending the newgrf spec
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10:58<TrueBrain>oeh, yes, lets call andythenorth the community leader from now on :D
10:58<TrueBrain>I like that!
10:58<andythenorth>"community leader" in UK-news-speak just means "people without the dominant skin colour in this country"
10:58<andythenorth>and I don't fit the criteria
10:58<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I am trying to avoid us talking about NewGRF specs, can't you tell? :D
10:58<andythenorth>my kids do but eh
10:58<TrueBrain>I feel so excluded when you guys do :(
10:58<andythenorth>no you don't
10:58<TrueBrain>you can't tell me how I feel
10:58<andythenorth>oh yeah sorry
10:58<TrueBrain>you don't pay my subscription!
10:58*andythenorth apologises
10:59<andythenorth>how do you feel TrueBrain ?
10:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible
10:59<andythenorth>ready for my 55 hour work week next week, and the 5 weeks after that
10:59<TrueBrain>pam pam pammmmmmmm
10:59<andythenorth>but seriously, negative running costs
10:59<andythenorth>so my trains can earn money in the restaurant car
11:00<TrueBrain>funny idea :D
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11:00<andythenorth>I did try just signing the attr
11:00<andythenorth>but it wraps
11:00*andythenorth wonders how wrong it could go if we just made it signed
11:01<andythenorth>it amuses me that I could make a train go round a circle, just earning money
11:01<andythenorth>by selling mars bars
11:01<TrueBrain>well, it should be relative to the amount of pax on board
11:01<TrueBrain>so you can load a train full
11:01<TrueBrain>run around in circles
11:01<TrueBrain>that is torture in another dimension
11:01<andythenorth>that can be done, check load when leaving station
11:01<Samu>yes! gcc, g++ stopped complaining!
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11:02<TrueBrain>new death-scenario: pax died because he was overweight
11:02<andythenorth>I was thinking of Ice Cream Van RVs also
11:02<andythenorth>drives around town, just making money
11:02<TrueBrain>and taking kids
11:02<Xaroth>This is getting real dark real fast.
11:02<TrueBrain>so with 1% chance you get 10x the normal profit
11:02<Xaroth>(Not saying that was a bad thing)
11:02<andythenorth>I think you have different ice cream vans where you live
11:02<andythenorth>ours seem less dangerous
11:02<TrueBrain>only seems that way, no worries
11:03<andythenorth>Mind That Child!
11:03<Samu>theoretically, a division by 0 should not occur
11:03<Xaroth>Not unless you want to implode the universe, no.
11:03<TrueBrain>@calc 1/0
11:03<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: float division by zero
11:03<Xaroth>andythenorth: Sonic is missing an eye...
11:04<Samu>i mean in here:
11:04<andythenorth>so disturb
11:04<Xaroth>and an earlobe
11:04<Timberwolf>One of the ice cream vans round here has a really sinister chime.
11:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
11:04<Samu>c starts with value 0
11:04<Timberwolf>It's one of the normal ice cream van tunes, but every so often one of the notes is unexpectedly from the minor key.
11:05<andythenorth>Timberwolf did you have these in the late 80s?
11:05<andythenorth>chimes are rad
11:05<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: that always scares the shit out of me, when that happens :P
11:05<Xaroth>Samu: if i->produced_cargo is an empty array, c would remain 0.
11:05<TrueBrain>can I say Timberwolf , I am happy you are chatty on IRC :)
11:06<Xaroth>or if none of those if blocks trigger.
11:06<Timberwolf>The other one doesn't have a proper chime, it has something like a NES sound chip amplified.
11:07<Samu>i->produced_cargo isn't supposed to be empty
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11:07<Timberwolf>TrueBrain: this is mostly just complete inability to focus :)
11:08<TrueBrain>well, I like it; at least it is not only me and andythenorth being all blablabla :D
11:08<andythenorth>I mean this is basically how I socialise
11:08<andythenorth>this way it's not rude to read the internet and watch YouTube whilst hanging out
11:08<andythenorth>and we don't have to talk about shit that's dull
11:09<andythenorth>well...Truebrain seems scared of newgrf, but I'm sure that's ok
11:09<andythenorth>we don't mind
11:09<Timberwolf>IRC means my OH can't steal all my friends into a different discussion :p
11:10<TrueBrain>haha :D
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11:12<Samu>is there a chance where lengthof(i->produced_cargo) is 0?
11:12<Samu>from what i've tested, it was never the case
11:12<Samu>it was always 16
11:12<andythenorth>so do we want (1) newgrf liveries (vehicle skins), which can support autoreplace etc or (2) vehicle customisation options (appearance and stats), which probably can't support autoreplace etc or (3) both
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11:12<andythenorth>(1) would be best as a simple spec, but will be instantly abused to do (2) anyway
11:14<Timberwolf>andythenorth: Not in the late '80s, we had one local ice cream man who'd had the same van since about 1972.
11:14<andythenorth>yeah that's the traditional model
11:14<andythenorth>the hemglass vans were an interloper of sorts
11:15<andythenorth>they sold boxes of ice creams, instead of individual
11:15<andythenorth>it was like Iceland on wheels
11:15<Timberwolf>We had the fish man.
11:15<Timberwolf>My dad says he still gets one of those on his little old people estate!
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11:24<andythenorth>ours came from Grimsby
11:24<andythenorth>in something like an Escort van
11:24<andythenorth>or a Marina van
11:25<andythenorth>yeah probably this
11:29<+glx>Samu: produced cargo is a fixed size array IIRC
11:30<+glx>but it can contain 16 invalid cargos is the industry doesn't porduce anything
11:30<Timberwolf>Ours had a Nissan Urvan, I think.
11:33<+glx>anyway your code seems to always increase c at least one time
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11:33<+glx>so minimum value at the end of the loop is 1, if my reading is correct
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11:35<andythenorth>Timberwolf yours came from Australia? :o
11:35<andythenorth>long trip
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11:37<+glx>with no produced cargo, c will be 1 and p will be -1 (mental run of the code, not verified in real)
11:38<Timberwolf>Heh. There were a few of those vans around.
11:38<Timberwolf>Friend's parents (with a large family) had a Toyota LiteAce. That was an amusing vehicle.
11:38<+glx>small minivan
11:39<Timberwolf>Tiny wheelbase and huge overhangs.
11:39<Timberwolf>Pitched amusingly fore and aft whenever it was in motion.
11:42<Timberwolf>We had a succession of Bluebirds, with one Volvo 240 in there. Until my parents divorced and my dad decided to go all low-budget extravagant and buy an old Granada.
11:42<Timberwolf>That was excellent, like a '70s sitting room inside. Loads of brown velour and (presumably fake) teak.
11:43*andythenorth remembers driving
11:43<andythenorth>it was a thing that used to happen
11:44<TrueBrain>remember the time people all went to a single building to work? LOLZ! That good old time ...
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11:50<Timberwolf>I had one of those where the single building was just the place you all met up while deciding which pub you were going to disappear to that day...
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12:03<andythenorth>I don't mind the new game mode
12:03<andythenorth>but I miss driving my van around
12:04<andythenorth>there was a lot of tedious grinding though in the old mode
12:04<andythenorth>like micro-management tasks that seem to have been removed
12:04<andythenorth>'shopping' etc
12:07<Timberwolf>The "Tube" level in particular felt like it was padding out a lot of time reusing the same assets.
12:07<Timberwolf>Impressive NPC instancing techniques, though.
12:07<andythenorth>dunno, I have been counting, I think there are only about 70 NPC meshes
12:08<andythenorth>and they only have 15 behaviours
12:08<Timberwolf>Miss the larger map from the old version.
12:08<andythenorth>more detail in the current one
12:09*andythenorth considers getting Landlord's Super
12:09<andythenorth>to relive actual childhood
12:09<andythenorth>being made somewhere near me, which is very not the 1980s North
12:10<Timberwolf>You don't find the lack of enterable buildings in the current update frustrating?
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12:11<andythenorth>I've found I can substitute using video games
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12:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
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12:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default
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12:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8689: Fix cc39fa9: New orders are non-stop by default
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12:45<TrueBrain>LordAro: if you flip a coin, how does it land for you when looking at ? :)
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12:48<supermop_Home_>andy, love that that video shows you cutting in corners with a tiny brush in addition to using the roller
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12:50<TrueBrain>wauw, someone dug up a 8 year old thread on the forums .. that is impressive search skills right there
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13:25<andythenorth>-ve running costs then...
13:27<Timberwolf>You've just broken my train with £2,150,000,000 per year running costs, literally unplayable.
13:28<Timberwolf>Actually it's running cost base isn't it, does anyone use the range 32768-65535? That's possibly more feasible if they're doing really granular running costs (whether deliberately or inadvertently)
13:28<andythenorth>I had similar
13:28<andythenorth>I left FFWD on with £2m running costs
13:29<andythenorth>I didn't actually look which prop it was, but yes, plausibly it can't be made signed
13:30<andythenorth>some other mechanic for "this vehicle gives a bonus" then?
13:30<andythenorth>my favourite so far is allowing vehicles to influence station rating
13:31<andythenorth>given that (1) money is no big deal (2) existing ratings mechanic isn't stupid, but has stupid elements
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13:33<andythenorth>'age of last vehicle' is particularly silly :)
13:34*andythenorth not sure how it would work yet
13:35<andythenorth>but restaurant coaches, sleeper coaches, brake vans, luxury ships...
13:35<andythenorth>could have a positive effect on station rating
13:35<Timberwolf>Cartics full of Austin 1100s, surely.
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13:36<andythenorth>the SNCF coach that had a children's playground in it
13:42<TrueBrain> <- can we please make this title game entry win this year?
13:42<supermop_Home_>evangelion anniversary shinkansen
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13:44<andythenorth>if Toyland wins I have to switch to Simutrans
13:44<andythenorth>I like the boats though
13:44<TrueBrain>another incentive, nice :D
13:44<TrueBrain>owh, euhhhhhhh
13:44<TrueBrain><3 :P
13:44<andythenorth>Toyland, nearly the nicest climate
13:45<andythenorth>only 3 others are nicer
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13:45<TrueBrain>it is in the top 4!!
13:45<andythenorth>it is!
13:45<andythenorth>station ratings eh?
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13:46<LordAro>i love how little effort (presumably zeph) put into those "bush trees"
13:46<LordAro>it's a very basic sphere shape
13:46<TrueBrain>apple on a stick!
13:46<andythenorth>it's probably beer time eh?
13:47<Wuzzy>Can someone please review <>?
13:47<LordAro>but yes, the general look of the scene is very nice
13:47<LordAro>just convert it to one of the other climates :p
13:47<TrueBrain>one of the other in the top 4!
13:47<andythenorth>Timberwolf so Euro trains next?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i think we had a toyland entry every year, and everyone said "wait, that looks nice", until they saw the title screen with original graphics
13:47<LordAro>TrueBrain: there are 4 entries so far, aren't there? :p
13:47*andythenorth enjoys having another big set developing in parallel
13:47<TrueBrain>its too bad title screen extend from the topleft, instead of center .. that sould be better, but okay ..
13:47<TrueBrain>LordAro: no, we meant top 4 from the climates
13:48<LordAro>oh, lol
13:48<TrueBrain>I mean, toyland is in the top 4, so that is something
13:48<TrueBrain>just imagine, this launching on steam
13:48<TrueBrain>someone installs the game
13:48<TrueBrain>opens it
13:48<TrueBrain>gets this
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13:49<LordAro>hmm, only 1 entry so far
13:49<LordAro>mildly disappointing
13:49<TrueBrain>one public one, they could also pm him, not? :D
13:49<TrueBrain>but can't we make the game put the saved position in the center of the map?
13:50<Wuzzy>don't laugh, I once played the full 100 years in Toyland. it's … okayish.
13:50<TrueBrain>makes for easier title games, I would guess
13:50<Wuzzy>the "real" climates are better 😛
13:50<TrueBrain>there is nothing wrong with Toyland; there is something completely wrong with using it as title game
13:51<LordAro>TrueBrain: maybe if i ever finish my "signs to move viewport" titlegame patch, i'll do that at the same time
13:51<TrueBrain>ugh, I am dreading making this custom GUI widget .. it most likely will be fine, but .. ugh ... :P
13:51<LordAro>define expansion direction with a sign in the top corner or something
13:51<TrueBrain>I think if the center is always the center, many people can make awesome things
13:51<LordAro>s/viewport "titlegame/titlegame viewport"/
13:51<TrueBrain>that alone might just be sufficient
13:52<LordAro>hmm, moving viewports makes titlegame competitions more difficult to judge :p
13:52<TrueBrain>then again, most title games I really like
13:52<TrueBrain>people are awesome in able to make those
13:52<TrueBrain>in able? in their ability
13:53<TrueBrain>either way, LordAro ,, with linux-generic, something that we want? Something that we want to maintain?
13:53<LordAro>it seems unnecessary for *us* to maintain something like that as well as linux-generic
13:54<TrueBrain>yeah .. I don't mind if someone else does it
13:54<TrueBrain>but the author doesn't want that
13:54<TrueBrain>so I guess that settles it
13:54<LordAro>it's no different from maintaining our own debian/rpm/whatever files
13:55<LordAro>(which we did, but no longer)
13:55<TrueBrain>yeah, exactly
13:55<TrueBrain>if CPack can do it, I am fine with it
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14:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
14:02<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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14:02<TrueBrain>mostly what annoys me, that this targets something that we already target in all kind of different ways, amd64
14:03<TrueBrain>having arm builds etc, now that would be worth considering to me
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14:03<TrueBrain>meh, I should stop trying to deny what I already know .. we shouldn't do this, not now :D
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14:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8329: Build AppImage
14:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8329: Build AppImage
14:05<TrueBrain>sometimes it is hard to say goodbye :P
14:05<TrueBrain>tnx LordAro
14:09<TrueBrain> <- is this an issue, adding currency? Do we have a policy on that? Or is it just: sure, what-ever?
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14:10<LordAro>go for it
14:10<TrueBrain>it is off by 3 magnitudes
14:10<TrueBrain>does it matter?
14:10<TrueBrain>guess it will feel cheap
14:11<LordAro>could put 'k Rp' ? :p
14:12<TrueBrain>would anyone understand that, I wonder
14:12<LordAro>also the various issues with that pr - removing the comment, editing indonesian
14:12<LordAro>TrueBrain: no idea
14:12<TrueBrain>yeah, I was about to fix those
14:13*andythenorth amused by how many adblocker ads I'm seeing
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14:14<andythenorth>surprised Google AdSense doesn't ban them :P
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14:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8616: Add: Currency: Indonesian Rupiah (IDR)
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14:18<nielsm>is there any reason currencies couldn't be a config file?
14:18<TrueBrain>pretty sure the answer is: because nobody wrote that :)
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>@nielsm well, there's the custom currency setting
14:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8616: Add: Currency: Indonesian Rupiah (IDR)
14:19<frosch123>the idea to remove all built-in currencies is as old as removing all built-in townnames :)
14:20<TrueBrain>ideas we have plenty :)
14:20<frosch123>TrueBrain: does your mapgen gui rewrite include a preview?
14:21<TrueBrain>frosch123: hmm ... not sure that would technically be possible
14:21<TrueBrain>but otherwise: fuck yes
14:21<TrueBrain>preview for scenarios and heightmaps too, tbfh
14:21<frosch123>it's possible for height + water + snow
14:21<frosch123>the rest takes too long, and uses too much global state
14:21<TrueBrain>well, generating the landscape alone on a 4kx4k is taking a few seconds
14:22<frosch123>it's already in a thread
14:22<TrueBrain>"Loading preview ..."
14:22<TrueBrain>and it doesn't have to block the UI, as it isn't showing the landscape
14:22<TrueBrain>which is an issue the normal generation has, and why especially the beginning is laggy as fuck
14:23<frosch123>i also dremed of highlighting areas with > 5 consecutive slopetiles
14:23<TrueBrain>many ideas to improve that, but .. time is a resource that is in demand :P
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14:23<frosch123>so you can see when the roughness / heighmap contrast exceeds the ottd limit of 1 height difference between tiles
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14:24<TrueBrain>but v1 for me would be to just simplify that GUI, and extend from there
14:24<TrueBrain>as there are so many things to try and toy with :D
14:24<frosch123>v1 for me was to merge the three mapgen guis we have :p
14:25<TrueBrain>well, I would just make a 4th and replace the others with it :P
14:26<frosch123>oh, my other motivation was to remove half of the button in the intro gui
14:26<TrueBrain>although it would lose its iconic look&feel, I am afraid
14:27<frosch123>yeah, it would look like factorio
14:27<TrueBrain>I mean, no clue why you can pick climate on the intro screen
14:27<TrueBrain>but it looks nice
14:27<frosch123>well, i mostly meant moving ai/gs/newgrf settings as buttons into the mapgen gui
14:27<TrueBrain>might just keep it without having them clickable :P
14:28<TrueBrain>yeah, and remove play scenario/heightmap
14:28<TrueBrain>as that UX is just terrible
14:28<TrueBrain>how often I clicked New Game, to find out I cannot start a scenario from there
14:28<frosch123>and to move the start server into the main gui, to rename the multiplayer gui to "join multiplayer" or something
14:28<TrueBrain>I think we are aligned on this :D
14:29<TrueBrain>and rename "Check Online Content" to anything not having the word "Check" in it
14:29<frosch123>oh, i even made a mock-up last year
14:29<TrueBrain>as I cannot understand it still reads "Check"
14:29<TrueBrain>link? :D
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>what about a "quick start" button prominently placed near the main menu climate selectors? (that's currently hidden as ctrl+click on newgame)
14:30<TrueBrain>I do not see a need for a "quick" start
14:30<TrueBrain>it is not like you are QUICK QUICK I NEED AN OPENTTD GAME NOWWW
14:31<TrueBrain>what would be the usecase for you?
14:31<_dp_>while on ui topic, can someone please move newgrf download to a server join button? ;)
14:32<_dp_>and not some weird place that half of players don't even understand :p
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>for me personally? testing something. but that shouldn't be the basis of any decision
14:32<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah .. I think we should make the intro screen simpler
14:32<TrueBrain>personally, I start openttd with -g -G0
14:32<TrueBrain>to get the exact same map every time
14:32<TrueBrain>but I think we shouldn't make that into a button :D
14:33<TrueBrain>and I am perfectly fine with having people click 2 or 3 times to start a new game, honestly
14:34<frosch123>at the top the current windows
14:34<frosch123>the left 3 are intended to be merged into one
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>i was just asking, because a) the climate selectors on the main menu are mostly decorative, and remnants from the previous main menu layout. and b) because, like i said, it's not a new feature, just a hidden feature
14:34<frosch123>the black horizontal lines represent some kind of tabbox or similar
14:34<TrueBrain>well, I want to be a bit more drastic than that frosch123 :D
14:34<TrueBrain>I think we should remove "max height" from that menu completely, for example
14:34<TrueBrain>just move it to a setting
14:34<frosch123>at the bottom you have buttons to open the settings tree in different filter variations
14:35<frosch123>TrueBrain: that would be "more map settings" in that mock-up
14:35<frosch123>it also included the other settings, which cannot be changed during a game
14:35<frosch123>like driving-side, or tree-generator, ...
14:36<andythenorth>_dp_ and call them mods or DLC while we're here?
14:36<TrueBrain>and as I wrote in the thread, I think we need a preset system, to guide players more
14:36<frosch123>as usual, i dropped the scenario editor under the carpet
14:36<TrueBrain>but yeah, on one thing we fully agree: less things in that window :D
14:36<frosch123>starting the SE is super weird
14:36<frosch123>TrueBrain: oh yes, another old idea: replace the climate buttons with a preset selection
14:36<TrueBrain>I am going to miss those climate buttons in the intro
14:36<_dp_>andythenorth, I'm on
14:36<frosch123>preset would include climate + newgrf + some settings
14:37<TrueBrain>presets including newgrfs
14:37<TrueBrain>that is not a bad idea
14:37<TrueBrain>just a tricky one
14:37<TrueBrain>who would maintain the presets?
14:37<frosch123>preset would be a shareable ini file, which sets the settings it wants to set (and leaves the rest unchanged) and also contains newgrf and gs
14:38<frosch123>basically a "import + merge another openttd.cfg"
14:38<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: honestly, if it was up to me, I would even remove that hidden functionality :D Not a big fan of all this CTRL-does-something-else, without it really telling you :)
14:38<TrueBrain>add presets to BaNaNaS you say :D
14:38<frosch123>yes, but that is v2 :p
14:38<TrueBrain>v1.6 :D
14:38<TrueBrain>I like that idea really
14:39<TrueBrain>it is simple, elegant, and allows many more players to a whole new world of gameplay
14:39<TrueBrain>and we can monitor what is popular
14:39<frosch123>anyway, we cannot even display a random png in the gui :p
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: we should have loading screen hints like "Ctrl+Click on button <x> does <y>" :p
14:39<TrueBrain>or just when you press CTRL things change
14:39<TrueBrain>so you know it has an interaction
14:39<supermop_Home_>i think we can lose the climate thumbnail buttons
14:40<TrueBrain>but one problem at the time, honestly
14:40<TrueBrain>supermop_Home_: but they are so iconic!
14:40<supermop_Home_>unless they are used for a 'preset' for each climate
14:40<supermop_Home_>TrueBrain yes, but
14:40<TrueBrain>no buts
14:40<frosch123>the 4 climates would be the default presets
14:40<TrueBrain>and clicking them starts a game?
14:41<TrueBrain>(we talk about the intro screen, right?)
14:41<supermop_Home_>i feel like if i click the temperate button it should just drop me into a 256x256 temperate game
14:41<_dp_>btw, I like the intent to guide players more but mb you should start with a freaking tutorial! :p
14:41<supermop_Home_>no other settings
14:41<frosch123>TrueBrain: yes, intro screen
14:41<TrueBrain>_dp_: feel free! >:D
14:41<frosch123>_dp_: the android port links youtube videos as tutorial
14:41<frosch123>_dp_: if you make good ones, i am +1 to adding links
14:41<frosch123>but i do not know any good tutorial videos
14:42<TrueBrain>it requires a lot of things .. someone with a good voice, someone who is good in recording, someone who is good in editing :)
14:42<supermop_Home_>the arctic picture has a picture of snowy mountains. i click that, i want snowy mountains, no other fucking around
14:42<TrueBrain>not undoable, plenty of people do it
14:42<TrueBrain>but yeah, tutorial videos will be nice :)
14:42<frosch123>TrueBrain: and someone who knows the game :p
14:42<TrueBrain>hosting on YouTube, a bit less, but meh :)
14:42<supermop_Home_>i don't mind voice stuff, but i don't like my own voice
14:43<_dp_>if I even make one it will be for cmclient :p
14:43<supermop_Home_>send me a professional mic set up and i'll do it tho
14:43<supermop_Home_>start a OpenTTD podcast
14:43<supermop_Home_>sell ads for mattresses
14:43<TrueBrain>frosch123: btw, just to check, where did your Heightmap button go in the mockup?
14:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: the black bars represent some kind of tabbox, i have not decided how to visually represent it
14:44<supermop_Home_>height maps should be easier to play
14:44<TrueBrain>owh, like that, I see
14:44<TrueBrain>okay ... now I have to make a mockup to show what I have in mind I guess ... :P
14:44<supermop_Home_>also, in SE, a button to just start playing the map
14:44<frosch123>idea is: there is only one new-game gui. you have some basic settings at the top, then select random map/heightmap/flat (in se), and then the additional settings
14:45<TrueBrain>the more I look at this, the more I am tempted to integrate BaNaNaS in those windows too
14:45<TrueBrain>as in, heightmaps show what you have locally, but also show what is available globally
14:45<TrueBrain>but it needs a rating system of some kind to be useful
14:45<frosch123>TrueBrain: there is also no filebrowser in that gui
14:45<frosch123>but integrating filebrowser + bananas would make sense
14:46<frosch123>load from local disk, load from personal cloud storage, load from bananas, ...
14:46<TrueBrain>basically, my goal would be to make the experience a bit more smooth
14:46<TrueBrain>not as many buttons, options, secrets, ...
14:46<TrueBrain>just clear and simple
14:46<TrueBrain>and yes, this will result in some functionalities no longer being there
14:47<supermop_Home_>i wonder what type of market a podcast would have
14:47<frosch123>TrueBrain: all the arcane stuff can move into the tree
14:47<frosch123>it's a gui task, not a "rewrite the mapgen" task
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14:48<supermop_Home_>"Every week, supermop does his best to summarize what was discussed on IRC, as far as he understands it..."
14:48<frosch123>so, by definition it does not remove/change the behavior, it just hides things and shows others :p
14:48<supermop_Home_>podcast content actually related to playing the game is bonus for paid subscribers only
14:49<TrueBrain>frosch123: I meant things like: ctrl+click this will do that, and all those things :)
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14:50<TrueBrain>okay ... gimp .. lets see if I can do this ..
14:50<frosch123>off, you may burn out if you touch that
14:50<frosch123>try smaller steps :)
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14:51<TrueBrain>that would make the job easier ;)
14:51<TrueBrain>but not sure we talk about the same thing now :D
14:52<frosch123>me neither. i did not follow the jump from mapgen gui to ctrl click
14:52<TrueBrain>currently, the GUI is full of hidden features
14:52<TrueBrain>like already mentioned, ctrl+click on newgame starts a map
14:52<TrueBrain>without giving you the window
14:52<TrueBrain>there are more of those .. lovely things
14:53<frosch123>yes, the ctrl+click to start a game is something i would have silently dropped along the way
14:53<andythenorth>the what now?
14:53<andythenorth>every day is a school day
14:53<frosch123>i don't know why anyone would start a game with the same settings so often they need a shortcut
14:53<andythenorth>I'm still recovering from learning about signal dragging
14:53<andythenorth>and statues
14:53<frosch123>they better use the console commands for that
14:53<_dp_>ctrl+click that just skips a dialog is not that bad
14:53<andythenorth>now you've blown my mind again
14:54<_dp_>it's much worse that half of the game is hidden behind some other ctrl-clicks
14:54<andythenorth>software's gonna software :)
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14:54<frosch123>anyway, all of you are blocking me from eating dinner for almost an hour now :/
14:54<TrueBrain>enjoy frosch123
14:55<andythenorth>I blame supermop_Home_
14:56<supermop_Home_>i did say yesterday you can blame me
14:58<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ can you send me the PSD? Unless you converted the palette to TTD Windows already?
14:58<andythenorth>oh you did :)
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15:00<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ looks good to me, no extraneous pixels :)
15:00<andythenorth>is hotel used in any other climates, or just arctic?
15:01<andythenorth>newgrf wiki says not
15:02<andythenorth>meh testing construction sprites for houses :(
15:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth opened pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
15:03<andythenorth>Yolo ^ ?
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15:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] azubieta commented on pull request #8329: Build AppImage
15:07<LordAro>andythenorth: ingame comparison shots?
15:07<andythenorth>LordAro new one looks like
15:08<andythenorth>old one looks like....ass
15:08<TrueBrain>holy crap, GIMP and fonts are ugly as fuck
15:12<supermop_Home_>andy i sent you updated png but not the new psd
15:12<supermop_Home_>i can sent the fixed psd too
15:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro approved pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
15:13<supermop_Home_>temperate hotel is the mid-rise with pool on the roof
15:13<supermop_Home_>but i would like to replace that sprite too
15:13<supermop_Home_>idk if there is a tropic hotel but i'd love to draw a Miami or Waikiki one
15:13<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ please send :)
15:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Eddi-z commented on pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
15:14<andythenorth>rebase and merge or squash and merge?
15:15<andythenorth>@LordAro there's a large docs/authoroverview.csv
15:15<andythenorth>I don't know any more than that
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15:17<TrueBrain>not sure I like this narrow form, but I had to try :)
15:17<supermop_Home_>does it have to say mods?
15:18<TrueBrain>it is way more understood than "online content"
15:18<supermop_Home_>i know it's colloquial idiom, but seems a little dumbed down?
15:18<TrueBrain>I am fine with what-ever, but currently it is just unclear
15:18<TrueBrain>dumbed down is not bad
15:18<TrueBrain>especially not for an intro menu
15:19<supermop_Home_>i guess i don't have a better suggestion
15:19<supermop_Home_>just reminds me of people who don't know about cars talking about cars
15:19<TrueBrain>the window has a complete lack of good spacing btw, but that was not the point :D
15:19<supermop_Home_>but i'm being elitist i guess
15:19<TrueBrain>the biggest pitfall we face, is assuming we understand our user :D
15:20<andythenorth>we don't understand our user
15:20<andythenorth>nobody understands the user
15:20<TrueBrain>so I tend to look at other games, and use that :)
15:20<andythenorth>it's why user-centered design is a false idiom
15:20<TrueBrain>in the assumption they had budget to figure out what users understand :P
15:21<andythenorth>I just make what I want, and I am fairly stupid, so I generally have to make it simple
15:21<andythenorth>seems to work
15:21<andythenorth>oh...I test UI stuff people as well :P
15:21<TrueBrain>with a menu this small, I would suggest to put it off center
15:21<TrueBrain>so the title game can be more visible
15:21<andythenorth>TrueBrain I like the minimalist view, and it would fit on my tiny iPhone when we do iOS
15:22<TrueBrain>I just wish I had a bit of room to add which game you are continueing
15:22<andythenorth>it violates every rule of touch UI otherwise, but at least it's narrow :)
15:22<andythenorth>'last played'
15:22<frosch123>andythenorth: play in landscape
15:22<TrueBrain>I like those games that put below it what that game was
15:22<TrueBrain>like "My-test-game.sav"
15:22<frosch123>TrueBrain: continue is weird because of singleplayer/multiplayer
15:22<supermop_Home_>andythenorth how would you describe BR design philosophy
15:23<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ extremely detailed, and highly tested
15:23<frosch123>i think i tried to group stuff into singleplayer and multiplayer
15:23<andythenorth>except when it wasn't
15:23<TrueBrain>I would put a spacer between Load game and Host game
15:23<supermop_Home_>like clearly there was a cohesive theory of design there
15:23<TrueBrain>and between Online content and Exit
15:23<andythenorth>Host game is less important than Join game
15:23<supermop_Home_>but seems it was more 'for the love of the game' rather than for the users
15:23<frosch123>anyway, you change so much, that i have no idea how the stuff behind the buttons would look like :p
15:23<andythenorth>stats may show I'm wrong :P
15:23<TrueBrain>frosch123: well, I wouldn't mind if Continue game rejoins the last server
15:23<TrueBrain>it just as to say so
15:24<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ hate the game, don't hate the players :)
15:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: I understand :D I will fiddle with the other windows too
15:24<TrueBrain>just GIMP is awful for this
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15:24<TrueBrain>I guess I just switch to wireframes instead :)
15:24<TrueBrain>ottdc bouncer is bouncing lovely today :)
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15:24<TrueBrain>something is cycling
15:24<andythenorth>TrueBrain one advantage of this linear layout it doesn't require any real design :)
15:24<andythenorth>and it will do ok with scaling font, etc
15:24<LordAro>30 mins to go
15:25<supermop_Home_>pretty sure a roll of steel doesn't care if the state owned monopoly locomotive pulling it has a livery that would totally kill it in design school
15:25<TrueBrain>LordAro: 25, not?
15:25<supermop_Home_>but god it was beautiful
15:25<LordAro>TrueBrain: nah, nasa tend to be pretty accurate about these things
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15:25<andythenorth>do we squash and merge or rebase and merge?
15:25<TrueBrain>hmm, 20:50 they told me ... :P
15:26<TrueBrain>well, 5 minutes later is fine :D
15:26<LordAro>i'm just going off :p
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15:26<LordAro>andythenorth: "depends"
15:28<andythenorth>day of week? star sign? project? nature of commits?
15:28<LordAro>nature of commits :p
15:28<LordAro>if you want to keep all the commits, rebase
15:28<LordAro>if you want only one, squash
15:28<andythenorth>1 only anyway
15:28<LordAro>then it doesn't matter
15:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth merged pull request #54: Change: replace Arctic Hotel sprites with improved version (Supermop)
15:29<LordAro>though squash (on GH) gives you opportunity to reword the commit
15:30<supermop_Home_>idk if that was user centric, and it probably was at least a little elitist
15:30<supermop_Home_>but it was good
15:32<andythenorth>£75 eh
15:32<supermop_Home_>i'm sure the real ones in binders are more
15:32<supermop_Home_>i indulged
15:32*andythenorth tempted
15:32<supermop_Home_>worth it just for the plate of the HST
15:33<andythenorth>there's nothing wrong with UCD, it just got turned into a bit of a fetish, when to me it's just how you make a decent product
15:33<andythenorth>but it leads to conversations like 'but how do you know, you are just the designer, surely in UCD the user is king?'
15:33<supermop_Home_>andythenorth i was most teasing
15:34<supermop_Home_>but yeah, some times 'customer is always right' is wrong
15:34<andythenorth>I suspect UCD is a bit of a campaigning thing, against a world of 'buyer centered design' or 'manager centered design'
15:34<andythenorth>or 'grant donor centered design'
15:34<TrueBrain>Factorio puts your last joined server on top of the menu, which is also funny
15:34<TrueBrain>and makes it green
15:34<TrueBrain>really clear from an UX perspective
15:35<andythenorth>TrueBrain all buttons must be yellow, and same size
15:35<supermop_Home_>in the past i have been tempted to buy a Rail Alphabet license as an indulgent
15:35<andythenorth>to give no gestalt weighting and no visual clues to importance
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15:36<supermop_Home_>hi planetmaker
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15:39<supermop_Home_>andythenorth i'd pay dearly for a Rail Express Systems brand standards binder
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15:41<TrueBrain> <- wireframe can be a bit tricky to translate to how it would look&feel in OpenTTD
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15:42<supermop_Home_>or a 43 in RES livery
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15:44<supermop_Home_>TrueBrain i love it
15:44<supermop_Home_>love merging the settings
15:45<supermop_Home_>maybe a border around new game and the 4 buttons, to make it clear that those are associated
15:45<supermop_Home_>like little 1-2 px line
15:46<supermop_Home_>i like where you put the whitespaces to group
15:46<supermop_Home_>maybe thin separator lines could go in there too
15:46<supermop_Home_>probably not needed
15:47<LordAro>TrueBrain: what is this supposed to be for?
15:47<TrueBrain>these details we have to work out if we make it into the game
15:47<TrueBrain>LordAro: an alternative intro GUI for OpenTTD
15:47<LordAro>seems very tall and thinm
15:47<supermop_Home_>the aspect ratio is a bit odd
15:47<supermop_Home_>will make title games look weird
15:48<supermop_Home_>unless it defaults to being off-center?
15:48<TrueBrain>LordAro: earlier picture to get an idea of how that looks ingame, but yes, it is a different approach from the fat solution we have now :)
15:48<TrueBrain>supermop_Home_: not sure what you mean
15:48<TrueBrain>but this is not meant to show pixels; just to give an idea of workflow, where buttons go and information is
15:49<supermop_Home_>i think it works well functionally though, as in clear to understand what each area does
15:49<supermop_Home_>TrueBrain unsure what i mean about the shape, or about lines?
15:49<TrueBrain>about aspect ratio
15:49<supermop_Home_>oh just that it is un familiar
15:50<supermop_Home_>being tall and thin
15:50<TrueBrain>owh, like that
15:50<TrueBrain>and yes, I would suggest we put it off-center
15:50<TrueBrain>to the left
15:50<TrueBrain>like 30% or something
15:50<TrueBrain>so the title screen has more room to shine
15:50<TrueBrain>or to the right .. I don't really care honestly :D
15:50<supermop_Home_>and title screen games at least subconsciously are built around a squarish void in the center of more boring stuff where the menu goes
15:51<supermop_Home_>off-center to the side might encourage different approaches to framing a title game
15:51<FLHerne>supermop_Home_: Is that true? "the centre" already depends on window size
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15:51<supermop_Home_>FLHerne i think it is subconscious
15:52<FLHerne>(there were already problems with titlegames that looked stupid on a 4k display because everything was in the corner)
15:52<supermop_Home_>the standard one, and the tto one both have a body of water in the middle
15:52<supermop_Home_>and about half the contest submissions seem to trend toward this
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15:54<supermop_Home_>in the contest voting at least, the menu is usually shown i think? so the submission that gets the most votes might be influenced by how well it fits around the menu
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15:57<TrueBrain>LordAro: without video feed from what is going on on Mars, this is rather boring :P
15:57<TrueBrain>"the numbers say ..." :P
15:57<TrueBrain>feels like a spreadsheet game :D
15:57<LordAro>well at least it's actual data, rather than a simulation
16:00<TrueBrain>its fake anyway :P
16:00<LordAro>there you go, picture
16:00<LordAro>what more could you want
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16:12<TrueBrain>it needs more thinking on some parts, but as I said .. I was thinking more minimalistic :D
16:13<TrueBrain>especially scenarios, I think that can be done better
16:14<andythenorth>installable presets :P
16:14<andythenorth>preset grfs :P
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16:15<frosch123>TrueBrain: climates have to be part of presets. whatever a preset defines, it will depend strongly on climate
16:16<TrueBrain>yeah, I forgot to write down: climates filter the presets
16:16<TrueBrain>was my thinking
16:16<frosch123>i realy like the idea of having a scrollbar and selecting a preset by image
16:16<TrueBrain>hmm, that would work too
16:16<frosch123>like selecting the template when making slides
16:16<andythenorth>it looks good to me so far
16:16<TrueBrain>so that window should filter the presets
16:17<frosch123>new game would be three things: select template from images, play or customize
16:17<TrueBrain>I have an idea to mix local and remote stuff ..
16:17<TrueBrain>frosch123: sorry, I don't follow that
16:17<frosch123>if you want to filter presets, than with a textbox :)
16:17<_dp_>TrueBrain, why is it titled 1.12.0-beta1? :p
16:18<TrueBrain>to set expectations
16:18<andythenorth>the 'break some eggs' edition
16:19<frosch123>TrueBrain: currently you separate climate and mapsize from all other settings. i don't think that will work. those two settings are just an arbitrary selection of many settings. i would consider date more important than either of your two :p
16:19<frosch123>so i suggest to show now settigns at all
16:19<_dp_>pitchfork edition :p
16:19<frosch123>just: select preset from an extensible list of 100+ presets
16:19<TrueBrain>frosch123: fair point
16:20<frosch123>then play them directly, or select one and use it as base for customising your own preset
16:20<TrueBrain>owh, that is smart
16:21<TrueBrain>I guess it should be easy to filter presets
16:21<TrueBrain>not only by name
16:21<TrueBrain>but by stuff like map-size, etc
16:21<frosch123>as a consequence. the "settings" button in the intro gui would only contian client settings, and possibly separated company settings. but no game settings
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16:21<TrueBrain>I like that :)
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16:24<TrueBrain> <- I was thinking something like this to combine local and remote <anything>
16:24<TrueBrain>so presets, scenarios, heightmaps, etc
16:24<TrueBrain>by default, only show local
16:24<TrueBrain>when you press a button, it sends the query out to remote
16:24<TrueBrain>(and adds the entries when found, and removes the button)
16:28<frosch123>when you edit the image the next time, fix the typo :p
16:30<TrueBrain>updated with a new iteration
16:32<TrueBrain>I think that reflects what you mentioned frosch123 :D
16:33<TrueBrain>AI settings and stuff would be in Preset Configure
16:34<TrueBrain>not sure that it needs their own window, or if it can just be in the list of other things
16:35<frosch123>in my mind there would be 1000 presets, so where you put a combobox i would put a searchbox. but those details do not matter now
16:35<frosch123>so, yes, looks good to me
16:36<TrueBrain>combobox? :P
16:36<TrueBrain>ah :D
16:36<TrueBrain>yeah, it will be a rich dropdown
16:36<TrueBrain>not the default one
16:36<TrueBrain>maybe a new window would be clear
16:36<TrueBrain>but either way, per line an image and metadata of the preset
16:36<TrueBrain>is my thinking
16:36<TrueBrain>and yes, filters .. I have an idea for that too :P
16:36<TrueBrain>scoping is becoming an issue
16:37<frosch123>yep, i thought "only image" at first, but putting it in a row, with some text is way better
16:37<frosch123>no scoping, just text filter
16:37<TrueBrain>sorry, I meant scoping of this change :P As this touches a lot of things now :D
16:38<frosch123>ah, well there are a lot of things which our "engine" does not support currently
16:38<TrueBrain>and we have to code presets ..
16:38<frosch123>putting all settings into the tree is already a big task
16:38<TrueBrain>yeah, and change BaNaNaS for it
16:38<frosch123>currently it has most, but it does not support all types of settings
16:38<TrueBrain>come up with a format ... :P
16:38<TrueBrain>but okay, we have a year for this
16:38<frosch123>and then the second big thing would be displaying png from disk
16:39<frosch123>which becomes very interesting with 8bpp blitters :p
16:39<TrueBrain>when OpenGL lands, we have to seriously ask ourselves if we want to keep 8bpp blitters, honestly :)
16:39<TrueBrain>but yeah, with them, interesting issue
16:40<frosch123>yep, you have to kill 8bpp blitters to advance with showing all kind of previews
16:40<andythenorth>are they still used?
16:40<andythenorth>anonymous telemetry anyone? :P
16:41<frosch123>andythenorth: 8bpp is default for windows in fullscreen, for linux in both windowed and fullscreen
16:41<frosch123>just osx broke it compeltely years ago, so we force 32bpp on osx
16:41<TrueBrain>and they are also faster on some platforms
16:42<TrueBrain>but ... we cannot live in 1994 all the time
16:42<frosch123>without opengl 8bpp is faster on all platforms :p
16:42<supermop_Home_>but i wanna!
16:42<andythenorth>every day, a school day
16:42<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ not sure I'd pick 1994-1996 as my optimum years
16:42<TrueBrain>I am really in favour of saying: sorry, on that machine, you can only run OpenTTD up till 1.10
16:42<frosch123>the OS were always better at converting 8bpp to screen than we were
16:42<supermop_Home_>i want to play ascendancy
16:42<andythenorth>probably the least fun part of my life, although also the most illegal drugs
16:43<supermop_Home_>i am bit younger,
16:43<supermop_Home_>i'd say 98 was maybe more fun
16:43<andythenorth>I'd pick 98-01
16:43<supermop_Home_>but in 94 i got a lego police station for my birthday
16:43<frosch123>98 was the best year for computer games
16:43<frosch123>halflife and starcraft
16:43<TrueBrain>frosch123: the main question is, where do we take it from here ... do we work out the windows in great detail
16:43<TrueBrain>or do we just start working on it, see where it ends
16:43<andythenorth>Doom was 93
16:43<andythenorth>and TTD and Railroad Tycoon 2 were nearby
16:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: small steps
16:44<supermop_Home_>and played a bunch of ascendancy, myst, SC2000
16:44<frosch123>there were 3 earlier attempts at the mapgen gui, they all failed
16:44<supermop_Home_>i got tto in 95, as after TTD came out, best buy had tto in a bargain bin for $4
16:44<frosch123>if you change everything at once, you will forget something, and make people upset
16:44<supermop_Home_>best $4 i ever spent
16:44<andythenorth>97 was a weird year
16:44<supermop_Home_>or worst
16:45<TrueBrain>I am tempted to hardcode a few presets and otherwise make the UIs first
16:45<frosch123>to take my recent the "move townnames to mapgen" as example
16:45<supermop_Home_>as tto showed me the capsule tower, which got me into weird modular architecture
16:45<andythenorth>in 1997 I was in Amsterdam, in a bar...doing what you do in Amsterdam
16:45<frosch123>i technically made it very inconvenient to define townnames in scenario editor
16:45<andythenorth>then the entire 3 racks of glass bar shelving with all the spirits spontaneously fell down
16:45<andythenorth>which was very freaky
16:45<frosch123>because creating a new scenario is completely weird...
16:45<andythenorth>then we went out on the street..and there were trams...fricking everywhere :P
16:46<andythenorth>like mad cows
16:46<supermop_Home_>if i never played tto maybe i would have chosen a reasonable career and not wasted so much $ going to design school
16:46<frosch123>TrueBrain: i see at least two changes, which are useful even without those new guis in mind
16:46<TrueBrain>do tell?
16:47<supermop_Home_>in 97 i was in middle school in yorkshire
16:47<frosch123>making sure that the tree contains all settings is useful for the "show settings different than default" etc. (which was actually the initial reason to create the tree: to have everything in one place, and find stuff by filtering, instead of guessing the right category)
16:47<supermop_Home_>learning the true meaning of the bullying based society that is an English boys school
16:47<frosch123>but this part is already not easy :p
16:48<TrueBrain>sorry, I do not follow what you mean there :)
16:48<frosch123>a second and completely independent thing is showing loaded/generated bitmaps in-game: to show preview pngs from bananas tars, or heightmaps, or mapgen preview, ...
16:48<supermop_Home_>somehow getting called out personally by the school chaplain for the US congress not signing on to the Kyoto protocol
16:49<TrueBrain>a third is making an UI where local and remote content is integrated
16:49<frosch123>TrueBrain: the settings tree currently does not contain all settings
16:49<TrueBrain>we have plenty of those hidden "finding content online" buttons
16:49<frosch123>some are only in "game options", some only in "mapgen"
16:49<TrueBrain>ah, like that, yes
16:49<TrueBrain>and I can mock a few new UI elements to see how that works
16:50<frosch123>(and then there is the madness of transparency options, but noone figured that one out)
16:50<TrueBrain>after that, we can mostly redo the UIs in this new idea
16:50<TrueBrain>with some fixed presets
16:50<TrueBrain>after that, local presets
16:50<TrueBrain>followed by remote
16:50<frosch123>you forgot "finish opengl" somewhere on the road :p
16:51<TrueBrain>well, first I am going to finish my 60fps PR
16:51<TrueBrain>and hope someone dares to review it
16:52<TrueBrain>Discord idea: make it possible you can change the presets on the intro yourself
16:52<TrueBrain>"So most advanced players will eventually forget toyland even happened"
16:52<TrueBrain>I dig that :)
16:52<andythenorth>poor old toyland
16:52<andythenorth>I think it should be kept :)
16:53<andythenorth>it's a classic
16:53<TrueBrain>frosch123: talking about 60fps PR, I need some advise .. the main gameloop is now the same for all drivers, with some minor bits and pieces different
16:53<TrueBrain>I want to deduplicate that, as .. this makes little sense
16:53<_dp_>most advanced players actually like toyland :p
16:53<TrueBrain>but ... where to put that ...
16:53<TrueBrain>openttd.cpp, consider it part of the MainLoop
16:53<TrueBrain>or keep it in video_driver.hpp
16:53<TrueBrain>it all feels a bit dirty
16:58<frosch123>TrueBrain: src/video/base_v.cpp ?
16:58<frosch123>we also have baseclasses for blitters, why not for video drivers?
16:58<TrueBrain>owh, if that is true, yes, that is a good idea
16:59<frosch123>i think you wrote the blitter classes :p
16:59<TrueBrain>I remember vaguely something like that, yes :P
17:01<TrueBrain>okay, yes, that would work
17:01<TrueBrain>means I don't have to copy/paste everything every single time
17:01<TrueBrain>it became a bit silly :D
17:04<andythenorth>sometimes I am so glad that I automated so much of my grf compiles
17:05<andythenorth>doesn't always seem that way when writing it, or when the magic goes wrong
17:06<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I am disappointed you didn't write 0.00% :P It is important to be exact!
17:09<andythenorth>is this train done yet?
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17:10<TrueBrain> <- can you guess when I had a job and when I did not had a job? :D
17:11<andythenorth>I happen to be playing exactly the correct 80s synth music for this visualisation
17:12<andythenorth>now I want to do mine, but it's boring
17:13<TrueBrain>you have been busy
17:14<andythenorth>TB has more than me :o
17:14<frosch123>i have no idea what those things show
17:14<frosch123>but i guess that's not their purpose
17:14<TrueBrain>activity graph in 3D
17:15<TrueBrain> <- that graph there
17:15<TrueBrain>but yeah, they could have mentioned that :D
17:15<frosch123>ah, weeks
17:16<TrueBrain>yeah, I like the ideas for the new UI
17:16<frosch123>i see no different between work days and weeked in my case :p
17:16<TrueBrain>but first, I need to make a new UI element for game-speed
17:16<TrueBrain>I know what I want, but I have to make it ....
17:17<TrueBrain>something for this weekend, I guess :D
17:17<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: You found a bug in the OpenGL PR by fixing BoundingRect :) Code fails for any top-left that is not 0.
17:20<TrueBrain>Nice :D
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17:21<+michi_cc>There's a bit which needs to be fed byte offsets, but was fed pixel offsets. Pixel 0 is of course also byte 0.
17:23<andythenorth>michi_cc thanks for the macos improvements btw, it's so much better
17:23<andythenorth>I can use full animation again
17:23<andythenorth>and fast FFWD is so helpful for testing grf
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18:41<supermop_Home_>i am eagerly awaiting someone to complain on forum abt my hotel sprite
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18:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Industry production graph
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18:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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18:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
18:54<_dp_>aren't there already some examples of hotkeys without widgets?
18:55<_dp_>and doesn't even need bitshifting, it's just an arbitrary constant
18:56<LordAro>there's quite a few examples of bitshifting like that out there too
18:56<LordAro>feel free to do your own review :)
18:56<LordAro>it's going to get forgotten if you put it here :p
18:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps
18:59<_dp_>where is bitshifting? I only see some increments
19:00<LordAro>i was thinking of the Order*Flags, because i touched them recently
19:00<LordAro>though they're not doing any bitshifting of other enum values, i suppose
19:00<TrueBrain>LordAro: tnx for review, and yeah, I will deduplicate before merging
19:00<TrueBrain>This just became really silly
19:03<_dp_>and he checks hasbit and does clrbit without even using the result
19:04<_dp_>can be just == ffs
19:04<LordAro>review pls :)
19:04<_dp_>tommorrow mb
19:05<_dp_>also kinda hard to say what's the right approach here since openttd doesn't have widgeds and hotkeys mixed anywhere
19:05<_dp_>cmclient has but I'm not very fond of it either
19:05<_dp_>but it's for sure nicer
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19:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8665: Codechange: Apply coding style
19:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8665: Codechange: Apply coding style
19:14<LordAro>FORCE MERGE
19:15<+glx>red buttons and confirmation checkbox :)
19:16<TrueBrain>They are meant to be pressed
19:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
19:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering
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22:27-!-D-HUND is "Wowbagger" on #openttd
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23:54-!-V453000 is "Vaclav Benc" on @#openttdcoop.pixel #openttd #nuts @#mashinky @#factoriocoop @#V453000 #/r/openttd
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23:54-!-Hazzard is "Mingwei Samuel" on #openttd #nuts @#freerct #coopetition #/r/openttd #hazzard
---Logclosed Fri Feb 19 00:00:45 2021