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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-02-20

---Logopened Sat Feb 20 00:00:47 2021
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03:16<andythenorth>moin
03:24<LordAro>o/
03:36<andythenorth>what shall we today pinky?
03:37<TrueBrain>you are missing a word there buddy
03:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8679: Fix: [Cygwin] Fix missing uint definition https://git.io/JtSab
03:39<andythenorth>my brain and tpying
03:39*andythenorth is wondering why vehicle info window is so...odd
03:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI https://git.io/JtSah
03:40<andythenorth>- 'cargo' shows current amount
03:41<andythenorth>- 'information' shows build date (for engines only) and current value, but not running cost
03:41<andythenorth>- 'capacities' shows capacities
03:42<andythenorth>- 'total cargo' shows total amount (total capacity), and also for some reason...transfer credits
03:44<andythenorth>so finding out about the load state of a train requires clicking and mentally comparing three different sub-windows
03:44<andythenorth>transfer credits is kind of clearly just a lol 'we don't know where to put this'
03:44<andythenorth>and I can't find out which vehicles in the train are expensive to run :)
03:45<TrueBrain>andythenorth: that you replied to someone who clearly did not read any of the replies ...
03:45<andythenorth>the capacities sub-window also prefixes every value with 'Capacity:'
03:45<TrueBrain>I just completely ignored what-ever he wrote, as clearly he didn't care for what we wrote :)
03:45<andythenorth>I was going to do that, but then I remembered I'm me
03:46<andythenorth>even though I try not to be
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03:46<andythenorth>so we need to show 'Capacity:' every time even though the other window for 'cargo' doesn't prefix? :D
03:46<andythenorth>OpenTTD UI lolz
03:47<andythenorth>in discord I could just post screnshots instead of wall-text
03:47<andythenorth>nvm :D
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04:18<TrueBrain>owh, lol, the win32 driver is running on a weird fps now :D
04:18<TrueBrain>silly me
04:20<TrueBrain>we cannot use WM_PAINT and dictate fps ourselves :D
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04:20<nielsm>hmm... stupid idea for being win32-like:
04:21<nielsm>put the game screen in WM_ERASEBACKGROUND (or whatever it's called) and the mouse cursor on in WM_PAINT
04:21<nielsm>(it's a bad idea)
04:21<nielsm>but yeah WM_PAINT should really just do nothing if we're repainting the window on a timer anyway
04:21<TrueBrain>lucky for us, it is perfectly fine to draw outside WM_PAINT :)
04:21<TrueBrain>it just means I have to change how the dirty-rect works
04:22<TrueBrain>but now I have that working
04:22<TrueBrain>win32 is also smooth as silk
04:22-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
04:22<TrueBrain>just need to check I don't make the OpenGL branch have more merge conflicts :
04:22<TrueBrain>D
04:26<TrueBrain>seems I cannot avoid this
04:27<TrueBrain>so I will just write a I AM SO SORRY michi_cc LETTER :)
04:27<TrueBrain>there will be some merge conflicts in the win32 video driver :)
04:27<andythenorth>YouTube seems to think...I need easy income fast
04:28<andythenorth>from working online, or as a deliveroo rider, or from secret investment strategies
04:28<andythenorth>FML youtube
04:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8702: Fix: [Win32] now we are drawing on a tick, no longer use WM_PAINT https://git.io/JtSrT
04:39<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I think it is best you review ^^, both to check if what I did is correct, but also to get the function you have to change in the OpenGL branch :)
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05:14*andythenorth refactoring horses
05:14<andythenorth>so satisfy
05:14<andythenorth>so bugs introduce
05:14<andythenorth>coding wow
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05:29<TrueBrain>how cute, win32 driver had an option to set display-hz
05:29<TrueBrain>max value, 120
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>120Hz ought to be enough for anyone :p
05:30<Eddi|zuHause><insert "the human eye can't see more than 18Hz anyway" comment> :p
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>(where the number before Hz is effectively a random number)
05:32<andythenorth>same game for audio speakers also?
05:40*andythenorth is going to add some very stupid things to Horse
05:51<TrueBrain>../src/debug.cpp:48:uint32 _realtime_tick = 0;
05:51<TrueBrain>lol @ location of that variable ..
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06:05*andythenorth does maths
06:07<andythenorth>hmm shall I do a nice fun detailed mechanic that is very hard to understand?
06:07<andythenorth>or a crude one?
06:07<andythenorth>OpenTTD tends towards 'crude' :D
06:07<andythenorth>game is game
06:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI https://git.io/JtS6M
06:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8701: Codechange: rename sound ids to make more sense. https://git.io/JtS6H
06:12<TrueBrain>why doesn't LordAro like confusing numbers?! :o
06:12<TrueBrain>:D
06:18<andythenorth>simple mechanic: restaurant car in train reduces run costs of all coaches in train by 50%
06:18<andythenorth>due to sale of buns and sherry
06:19<andythenorth>problem: run costs are only about £10k on a train that already earns £100k / year
06:19<andythenorth>if I increase pax coach run costs, players reliably report they can't make any more with pax trains
06:19<andythenorth>due to piss poor networks, and/or cdist transfer diluting income
06:21*andythenorth might do it anyway
06:22<nielsm>need a mechanic where passengers that travel a long distance pay a bonus fare
06:22<nielsm>straight up bonus fare
06:25<andythenorth>can't be done I think
06:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI https://git.io/JtSiR
06:25*andythenorth doesn't want to be the 'nothing is possible' guy though :D
06:26<andythenorth>but transfer payments...
06:26<andythenorth>and when things are actually calculated?
06:27*andythenorth hopes to be wrong :)
06:28<andythenorth>negative income would be the most lolz opportunity though
06:28<andythenorth>also income from pax waiting on stations, who are forced to go to the pub
06:28<andythenorth>we kinda lack some of the small fun things that other transport games have as standard
06:28<andythenorth>like special bonus vehicles, and station 'improvements'
06:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSi2
06:29<LordAro>\o/
06:29<TrueBrain>okay, that was a lot harder than I expected, but the result is pretty clean I think. michi_cc I might have overstated that this might help rebased OpenGL ... :(
06:29<TrueBrain>I did cherry-pick some things from the OpenGL branch
06:29<TrueBrain>to make it easier
06:30<TrueBrain>and did some renaming you were going to do anyway
06:30<TrueBrain>so hopefully that helps a lot :)
06:30<TrueBrain>but it won't be fully trivial .. sorryyyyyyy
06:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI https://git.io/JtSiV
06:30<TrueBrain>(I am even willing to rebase btw, if that helps)
06:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSi2
06:31<TrueBrain>stupid commit-checker :P
06:31<+michi_cc>Haven't look at it yet, but it's okay, I'll deal with it somehow :D
06:32<TrueBrain><3
06:32<TrueBrain>I am totally unsure what to do with GdiFlush .. it is a real pain in my ass
06:33<TrueBrain>just so you already know :P
06:33<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8703/commits/c0ed99f2e12dd901a78a26d1971b9004fa733e05 <- this might be the most debatable change I made btw
06:34<TrueBrain>possibly a really stupid question .. I made "std::chrono::steady_clock::time_point" a variable of a class .. I do not explicitly initialize the value .. is it safe to assume it will be 0?
06:34<LordAro>TrueBrain: you can safely remove all the #if SDL_VERSION_ATLEAST(1, 3, 0) bits from the sdl1 driver, btw
06:34<TrueBrain>or will it be some random value?
06:35<TrueBrain>LordAro: honestly, I think I can safely remove SDL1 :P
06:35<LordAro>well, yes
06:35<TrueBrain>but yeah, 1.3 never happened, so I might as well
06:35<LordAro>but if you want to make the line removal count look better :p
06:36<LordAro>TrueBrain: time_point is a class, so it will be default constructed, i think
06:36<LordAro>(regardless of what constructors do)
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06:38<TrueBrain>given it works as it is, I assumed as much, but I was wondering if that was by spec, or just random compilers doing stuff :P
06:39<LordAro>https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/data_members
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06:39<LordAro>simulate it with a class that prints when it's being constructed and making that a member of another class
06:40<TrueBrain>that doesn't tell me if it is by spec, or random compiler behaviour :)
06:40<TrueBrain>I know it initializes as 0 on GCC / MSVC
06:40<TrueBrain>I was just wondering if that was something that is fine to do, or that it needs to be more explicit :D
06:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSi2
06:41<TrueBrain>SDL 1.3 removed ^^
06:41<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: I don't suppose you checked if the screenshot part of https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7744/commits/c36bf16ce8bc07377b5f9ebee80cc08b68b5028c is in fact a fix instead of a change?
06:42<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I have not; I haven't even tested screenshots recently :)
06:43<TrueBrain>works "fine" without it, at least :P
06:44<TrueBrain>screenshots are not threaded, are they?
06:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSiF
06:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSib
06:46<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/default_initialization seems to imply that as long as the data member is a class type, it's default constructor will be called. POD types are random-initialized.
06:46<LordAro>TrueBrain: there's an extra warning too :)
06:46<TrueBrain>michi_cc: okay, and this is a class, so we should be fine
06:46<TrueBrain>awesome
06:46<LordAro>michi_cc: you should know better than to use 'random' in such technical contexts :p
06:47<TrueBrain>LordAro: DOH! Especially as I know about it :P
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSih
06:47<+michi_cc>Sorry, "are initialized to indeterminate values". Very different from random :)
06:47<LordAro>^^
06:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSPe
06:49<TrueBrain>michi_cc: it seems screenshots are created from the game-tick
06:49*andythenorth is stupid
06:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSPv
06:49<andythenorth>playing a test game for cargo_age_period that includes transfers :(
06:49<TrueBrain>so I cannot find a way to break it :P
06:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSPT
06:50<andythenorth>given A<->B<->C route, what happens to income of B->C leg if A->B leg income is increased? o_O
06:50<andythenorth>B->C leg makes less money
06:50<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Well, yes, anything that is called from GameLoop() needs to re-lock the video buffer. You'll only notice it with OpenGL as it zeroes out _screen.dst_ptr.
06:50<TrueBrain>ah, of course, OpenGL does different things there
06:51<andythenorth>but backload C->B paying more will cause B->A to make less money
06:51<andythenorth>so net, all my trains will make same
06:51<TrueBrain>so it is a fix for OpenGL :D
06:51<andythenorth>which is why changing cargo_age_period is having no visible effect
06:51*andythenorth so dumb
06:52<andythenorth>transfer payments are brain breaking :D
06:52<+michi_cc>I'd argue it is a fix in general, as the screen buffer "belongs" to the video driver between UnlockVideoBuffer and LockVideoBuffer. (Yes, I know, none of the existing drivers *do* aynthing with it, but still :D)
06:52<TrueBrain>I agree
06:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSPq
06:54<TrueBrain>I have to say, I am pretty happy with the video driver code like this
06:54<TrueBrain>and I really love playing OpenTTD at 60fps .. SO SILKY SMOOTH, whhhiiiiieeeeeeeeee
06:55<andythenorth>zoooooom
06:55<TrueBrain>and of course we did all that because we are releasing to Steam. That was the motivation right? Scared of bad reviews? Because a game from 1995 runs at 33fps :P
06:55<TrueBrain>(sarcasm implied)
06:56<LordAro>TrueBrain: just need smooth vehicle movement now :p
06:56<TrueBrain>yes
06:56<TrueBrain>we really do
06:56<TrueBrain>and smooth news window popout
06:56<TrueBrain>but that is really hard to make smooth
06:56<TrueBrain>as you kinda need AA for that
06:56<TrueBrain>which means we have to ditch our 8bpp blitters
06:57<LordAro>:o
06:57<TrueBrain>(anything that you move by pixel, with a set palette, will never feel smooth)
06:58<TrueBrain>well, or just don't support it on 8bpp blitters, I guess
06:58<TrueBrain>no need to be all drastic about it, I guess
06:58<TrueBrain>the news window is funny .. it moves every 15ms (which is interesting as the game was running every 30ms, but okay)
06:58<TrueBrain>so sometimes it moves 2 pixels per game-tick
06:58<TrueBrain>sometimes 1
06:58<TrueBrain>just .. because .. timers
06:58<TrueBrain>and that feels jerky, no matter what you do
06:59<TrueBrain>it now animated on draw-tick
06:59<TrueBrain>which makes it slightly better
06:59<nielsm>I look forward to getting to a place where all the native 8bpp mode and blitters can be excised
06:59<TrueBrain>but there too, you can notice the stuttering of the pixel
06:59<TrueBrain>the only thing I could think off to solve it, was using subpixels
07:00<TrueBrain>will have to look into it more .. as that news popup has to become smooth!
07:00<TrueBrain>(and after that, vehicles, possibly, but first news animation :D)
07:00<TrueBrain>nielsm: well, with OpenGL, that might be worth concidering
07:00<TrueBrain>concidering? Considering ..
07:00<TrueBrain>typing hard
07:01<TrueBrain>but that means: reviewing 2 of my PRs, merge, rebase, review of OpenGL PR, merge! :P :D
07:01<TrueBrain>done by end of weekend, yes yes? :D
07:04<TrueBrain>oops, late lunch
07:07<andythenorth>lol
07:07<andythenorth>I've been testing pax payment rates using 'all trains' window and looking at 'last year'
07:08<andythenorth>but OpenTTD is caching those values and not updating in [cases I can't repro reliably yet]
07:08<andythenorth>that's fun
07:09<andythenorth>pretty reliable
07:09*andythenorth wonders what the trigger is
07:09<andythenorth>switching group triggers a recalculation / repaint
07:09<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Quick shopping trip first, then I'll look at the video PRs :)
07:14<andythenorth>hmm
07:15<andythenorth>did anybody try adjusting station rating according to size of connected cdist network?
07:15*andythenorth thinks many things might have been tried in cdist
07:18<andythenorth>it's a good proxy for 'passenger generation'
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07:54<TrueBrain>"It's apparent that you have used AdWords marketing to promote your business in the past". We did?! WHEN?! WHO DID THAT!
07:54<TrueBrain>lol
07:54<TrueBrain>silly emails
07:55<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: If I move the mouse fast enough, I get wrong clipping of the cursor. It seems to be a preexisting bug though, as I can see that in versions before the refresh rate as well.
07:55<TrueBrain>which OS?
07:55<+michi_cc>Windows
07:55<TrueBrain>well, which video-driver is my real question ofc :P
07:56<+michi_cc>normal win32 one :)
07:56<TrueBrain>if I move real fast, I just have a hard time finding my mouse
07:57<TrueBrain>what do you mean with wrong clipping exactly?
07:57<+michi_cc>If I move the mouse e.g. to the left, every few frames the first x pixel rows on the left are not drawn.
07:58<TrueBrain>how would you spot that :P
07:58<+michi_cc>It's really hard to accurately see, it just feels like some cursor flickering.
07:58<+michi_cc>Good eys? :P
07:58<TrueBrain>cannot really reproduce, I have to say
07:59<LordAro>the mouse is looking very flickery on your wm-paint branch
07:59<TrueBrain>of course if I move the mouse quick, it feels like there are more than one mouse on the screen :D
07:59<LordAro>just testing to see whether it's the same on master
07:59<LordAro>(win32, msys, debug)
07:59<TrueBrain>flickery?
07:59<+michi_cc>LordAro: I checked an earlier commit, and I'd says it is a pre-existing problem.
08:00<+michi_cc>Let me see if I can make a video.
08:00<TrueBrain>pre-existing or not, it would be lovely if the mouse is as silky smooth for everyone as it is for me :D
08:00<LordAro>TrueBrain: as in, to my eyes it looks like the mouse is not getting drawn for some frames
08:00<LordAro>(when moving it fast)
08:00<TrueBrain>and you use my PR?
08:00<TrueBrain>hmm
08:00<TrueBrain>I see multiple mouses (that is, my eyes makes me believe I do)
08:01<LordAro>that was with your PR, but might be unrelated, might be ancient, might be something else entirely
08:01<TrueBrain>yeah, but my PR fixes many of these issues
08:01<TrueBrain>that is why I ask
08:01<nielsm>actually it may be the right thing to do, to store the last painted game screen as a GDI bitmap, paint it in WM_ERASEBACKGROUND, and paint the mouse cursor in WM_PAINT
08:02<TrueBrain>to be clear, the mouse is always painted
08:02<TrueBrain>every frame has the mouse somewhere
08:02<TrueBrain>just the question is, is it responsive enough :D
08:02<TrueBrain>nielsm: that would be rather laggy
08:03<TrueBrain>you either have to let WM_PAINT drive your responsiveness
08:03<TrueBrain>or a ticker
08:03<TrueBrain>not both
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08:03<TrueBrain>LordAro: any chance you can record it? And does video capture it? :D
08:03<TrueBrain>mainly to see if you and michi_cc are both seeing the same thing :D
08:03<LordAro>i'm still recompiling master :p
08:03<LordAro>msys is slow...
08:03<TrueBrain>really slow
08:04<LordAro>also do some comparisons with the native cursor
08:04<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Okay, it's not a drawing bug. A screen recording is totally fine. I think it is a vsync/tearing problem.
08:04<TrueBrain>yeah, we are not vsync'd
08:04<TrueBrain>I would say, we should finish OpenGL
08:04<TrueBrain>and test this again
08:04<TrueBrain>:)
08:05<TrueBrain>it might absolutely be that my screens are 144Hz, that makes me not see what you are seeing :)
08:05<LordAro>quite possible
08:05*LordAro merely at a plebian 60Hz
08:05<TrueBrain>you can set refresh_rate in [gui] to 30, and check if it is still there
08:05<TrueBrain>the mouse will feel a lot more laggy
08:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8701: Codechange: rename sound ids to make more sense. https://git.io/JtS1X
08:07<LordAro>frosch123: the comment about SoundFx wasn't visible in the diff :p
08:08<TrueBrain>btw, LordAro , if you check master, check before 60fps to get a fair comparison :)
08:08<TrueBrain>current master on Windows is the worst combination :P
08:08<TrueBrain>(drawing on 60fps, but depending on WM_PAINT an annoying delay between when you see it .. what is fun, that you notice you are constantly overshooting everything when moving with your mouse, as you are over compensating :D)
08:10<LordAro>i think it might be vsync as well
08:10<TrueBrain>in general, OpenTTD has a lot of vsync issues
08:10<TrueBrain>moving the map around quickly too
08:10<LordAro>definitely looks worse than the native cursor
08:10<TrueBrain>you get these annoying horizontal stripes all over the place
08:10<TrueBrain>but as mentioned, with OpenGL that changes anyway
08:10<TrueBrain>so I am curious how that feels :D
08:11<LordAro>it's probably the same cursor issue that was mentioned in the steam discussion
08:11<TrueBrain>yeah ... software cursor has its downsides
08:11<TrueBrain>hardware ones are always better, but ... also more difficult
08:11<TrueBrain>Factorio combines both, for example
08:11<TrueBrain>you have the system cursor + highlights of the game
08:11<TrueBrain>which is a road-not-taken by OpenTTD :D
08:13<TrueBrain>LordAro: but master from a few days ago has the same issue? Just to be sure :)
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08:23<LordAro>TrueBrain: yeah, no real difference
08:24<TrueBrain>no regression, that is good. But still something we should look at
08:24<TrueBrain>well, no
08:24<TrueBrain>after OpenGL, see if it is still there
08:24<TrueBrain>and address it from there :)
08:24<LordAro>aye
08:24<LordAro>i tried recording it with my phone
08:24<LordAro>video was jpeged to hell, couldn't see anything
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08:24<TrueBrain>you cannot really record vsync issues, sadly :)
08:25<TrueBrain>but knowing that is the issue is part of the solution
08:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8702: Fix: [Win32] now we are drawing on a tick, no longer use WM_PAINT https://git.io/JtSM1
08:25<+michi_cc>As far as I can see, cursor stuff as nothing to do with ^^
08:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8702: Fix: [Win32] now we are drawing on a tick, no longer use WM_PAINT https://git.io/JtSrT
08:26<TrueBrain>and if it is, we will address it accordingly :)
08:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSi2
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08:33<_dp_>film the screen in slow-mo? :p
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08:47<andythenorth>so 'vehicles for this station' window is also caching income
08:47<andythenorth>it's not just that the window isn't painting, I can see vehicle sprites change as expected
08:47<andythenorth>but profit is not updated
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08:52<andythenorth>RVs also affected, but RVs are updating occasionally (to wrong values)
08:52<andythenorth>trains seem to not update
08:52<andythenorth>ships affected
08:52*andythenorth will make a proper report
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09:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8698: Add: [Actions] msys2/MinGW CI https://git.io/JtSSz
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09:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtS92
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09:41<FLHerne>andythenorth: See ^ and https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/pull/6
09:42<andythenorth>oh that's quite cool :)
09:43*andythenorth pulls
09:45<TrueBrain>btw, michi_cc , if you want me to cherry-pick some more blobs into my last PR to make OpenGL easier, just let me know. Sometimes I was doubting a bit what to pull in .. like making draw_threaded a member, and stuff like that
09:46<andythenorth>oof
09:46<FLHerne>andythenorth: It just switches two arbitrary numbers for different ones that aren't arbitrarily wrong :p
09:46<andythenorth>FLHerne that's why I like it :)
09:46<FLHerne>(and I hope I didn't miss any)
09:46<andythenorth>no pitchforks
09:47*andythenorth had a huge late breakfast and is sleepy
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09:48<andythenorth>will I be bisecting to find out why profit display isn't updating?
09:48*andythenorth will
09:51<FLHerne>I think I broke `black` somehow
09:51<FLHerne>It wants to reformat *everything*, even using the right args
09:53<LordAro>usually means you forgot the line lenght
09:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8679: Fix: [Cygwin] Fix missing uint definition https://git.io/JtXAu
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10:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtS92
10:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8704: Change: Move toolbar button for cargo payment graph under industries https://git.io/JtSHC
10:05<_2TallTyler>Does anyone know if it's possible add text padding when a window is just as wide as the title text? This is the only thing keeping #8688 in draft form (screenshot in PR).
10:09<FLHerne>andythenorth: fwiw, NML uses its location range from 128 upward, so it almost certainly didn't cause actual problems
10:09<andythenorth>'lucky' :D
10:10<andythenorth>the counting down thing is weird
10:11<FLHerne>"In German, or English, I know how to count down..."
10:11<FLHerne>Why does it count down? :p
10:13<andythenorth>because JFDI coding
10:13<andythenorth>not wanting to work out if registers from 0 up were already used or not
10:13<andythenorth>I housekeep those now, so I would do it differently
10:18<andythenorth>do I need to rerun cmake every build?
10:29<FLHerne>Yes
10:29<FLHerne>(if you haven't changed things, it'll exit quickly without doing much)
10:34*andythenorth bisecting for when train window stopped showing profit
10:34<FLHerne>Using -GNinja will speed things up quite a bit over the Makefile backend
10:40<andythenorth>I'm in november currently :P
10:40<andythenorth>surprised nobody noticed this before
10:43<andythenorth>lol managed to hit a rev that asserts, super :)
10:43*andythenorth compiles again
10:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSQN
10:49<andythenorth>train window is updating as expected in dddf885fb400d3ae0a24429d5cdd88f5dd921693 from 7th dec
10:49*andythenorth leaving that here in case I get hit by a bus
10:49<andythenorth>or lose my browser tab
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11:00<andythenorth>failing by 7b515fa0e287e45aee8281f44ea357498b22020f 25th dec
11:00*andythenorth works back
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11:06<andythenorth>lol 21st dec, when mac ffwd got me 8x on an empty map, and the mouse was 30fps
11:06<andythenorth>such changes since then :)
11:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSt9
11:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8703: Deduplicate tick-related code in video drivers https://git.io/JtSi2
11:08<TrueBrain>tnx michi_cc !
11:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtS5V
11:26<andythenorth>so afaict this is the commit that breaks profit display updating for vehicle list windows https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/584df548f1bdfa27482aa995d151542abe4f0bca
11:27<andythenorth>lot of marking dirty / force rebuild
11:28<andythenorth>vehicle sprites DO update
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11:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened issue #8705: Vehicle list windows fail to update profit display whilst open, after 584df548f1bdfa27482aa995d151542abe4f0bca https://git.io/JtSd4
11:40<Wolf01>Ahahah hit fast forward with animation off, really nice, most intense 50 years in 30 seconds ever
11:41<andythenorth>^^ this bug has really fucked with my testing of cargo_age_period :)
11:41<andythenorth>that is a lot of junk testing I did :)
11:41<andythenorth>like 2 hours or so
11:41<Wolf01>"bug"
11:42<Wolf01>You should really train an AI to test that kind of stuff
11:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSdg
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11:44<andythenorth>I have been taking screenshots of profit annually, and then re-running with different cargo_age_periods
11:45<andythenorth>but I had the vehicle window open, left the game on ffwd
11:45<andythenorth>I only noticed when I started seeing identical values year on year
11:47<Wolf01>Oh you meant that bug, sorry, I don't have any attention span :P
11:47<Wolf01>Also, I think I'll take another nap
11:50<andythenorth>:)
11:51<andythenorth>TB has tidied up
11:51<andythenorth>:P
11:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtSdb
11:55<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you were the one that wanted people to use less words to say the same :P :P :P
11:55<andythenorth>I am grateful
11:55<andythenorth>long hash is long
11:58<frosch123>FLHerne: nml has "make black"
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12:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on issue #8705: Vehicle list windows fail to update profit display whilst open, after 584df54 https://git.io/JtSd4
12:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8705: Vehicle list windows fail to update profit display whilst open, after 584df54 https://git.io/JtSd4
12:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #8705: Vehicle list windows fail to update profit display whilst open, after 584df54 https://git.io/JtSd4
12:09*andythenorth learns to check
12:09<andythenorth>1.5 hours of bisecting could have been saved
12:10<andythenorth>today is a low productivity openttd day :P
12:10<TrueBrain>but you wouldn't have such fun!
12:10<andythenorth>this is not fun
12:10<TrueBrain>:(
12:10<andythenorth>my own fault eh
12:11<andythenorth>2 hours of making newgrf changes using invalid data
12:11<andythenorth>1.5 hours of bisect due to not checking open bugs :D
12:11<andythenorth>GG andythenorth
12:12<LordAro>oof
12:13<LordAro>and i'd even previously debugged it for you
12:15<andythenorth>these are the things
12:16<andythenorth>at least it wasn't on a livestream
12:16<andythenorth>worst livestream content ever
12:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSbO
12:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8575: Profit for each vehicle in vehicle lists aren't being updated regularly https://git.io/JtUMl
12:22*andythenorth has forgotten what the original goal was :D
12:25<andythenorth>https://xkcd.com/349/
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12:37<_dp_>is a good idea to remove global goals from company goals?
12:37<_dp_>I haven't seen a signle gs that would use both for their indended purpose
12:38<_dp_>or, actually, I could only find one that uses global goals for global goals
12:38<_dp_>all others use them for company league table :p
12:39<_dp_>Only downside I see is it gets a bit more confusing for newbies that don't know there are both global and company goals
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12:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtS92
12:42<FLHerne>frosch123: ^ included 0xFF
12:43<+michi_cc>I might have been bad and also posted in that thread.
12:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtSN4
12:45<frosch123>FLHerne: sorry, did not see this the first time
12:46<andythenorth>so...YACD-Dist revival when?
12:46<andythenorth>now the game is fast...we can make it...better?
12:47<FLHerne>frosch123: Huh, I realised it would apply to perm storage, and then apparently misread the docs
12:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSt9
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12:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSAk
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12:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8701: Codechange: rename sound ids to make more sense. https://git.io/JtSAO
12:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8695: Codechange: Apply coding style https://git.io/JtSAc
12:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8695: Codechange: Apply coding style https://git.io/JtyQy
13:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 merged pull request #8701: Codechange: rename sound ids to make more sense. https://git.io/JtS3o
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13:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 opened issue #190: Sounds have ridiculous names https://git.io/JtSAK
13:03<arikover>hello o/
13:03<TrueBrain>I see what you did there frosch123 :P
13:03<frosch123>what?
13:04<TrueBrain>nothing ... :)
13:04<frosch123>now everyone thinks i did something bad :(
13:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtS92
13:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 approved pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtSAb
13:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSxO
13:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #189: Change: Check that user code doesn't try to use reserved registers https://git.io/JtS92
13:18<andythenorth>is there a vehicle var 'time since last station'?
13:18*andythenorth still trying to make restaurant cars a thing
13:20<andythenorth>80+ seems to have Cargo transit time, in +185 ticks (~2.5 days) units
13:21<frosch123>that's since loading
13:21<frosch123>there is also time since service :p
13:21<frosch123>if you define "servicing" as "restocking food"...
13:22*andythenorth considering restaurant car that reduces running costs, but only if route is long enough
13:22<andythenorth>nobody buys a sandwich on the train for 10 tile journey
13:23<andythenorth>vehicles-affect-rating would still be the most useful / logical thing to do
13:23<andythenorth>but is that just boring?
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13:32<frosch123>you could reduce running cost when servicing often
13:32<frosch123>it's cheaper to run the refridgerator
13:33<frosch123>and if the impact is significant enough, it may incentivate to build servicing track layouts
13:33<frosch123>maybe if the food is stored too long, passenger are poisoned, and you need to pay for them?
13:34<andythenorth>we need event-driven arbitrary income cb
13:34<andythenorth>signed
13:34<andythenorth>events: servicing, unload, load, crash
13:34<andythenorth>what did I miss? :P
13:34<TrueBrain>to suggest this 15 years ago :P
13:34<andythenorth>1994
13:34<TrueBrain>NewGRF is older
13:34<TrueBrain>younger
13:35<TrueBrain>sorry
13:35<andythenorth>ideally, everything about payment and rating would be different :P
13:35<andythenorth>as it is not ideally, what lolz can we do?
13:35<andythenorth>nothing is 'ideally'
13:36<andythenorth>frosch123 I like the servicing idea, but then I'd have to actually service trains :D
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14:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JtSh6
14:00<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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14:12<frosch123>i pressed a wrong button :p
14:12<frosch123>TrueBrain: i missed the deploy button, and pressed "ready for review", not sure i can change it back :p
14:13<frosch123>no idea why i was allowed to press it in the first plae
14:13<TrueBrain>you pressed a button where?
14:13<TrueBrain>on a PR, from draft?
14:13<frosch123>ah, i found the revert button
14:13<TrueBrain>context is missing, so I am guessing :)
14:13<frosch123>i changed 8693 from draft->ready->draft
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14:14<TrueBrain>yeah, to draft is hdiden
14:14<frosch123>but the "ready->draft" button was in a completely different place
14:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8693: Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed https://git.io/JtSjO
14:18<TrueBrain>frosch123: currently I did the reverse: CTRL+CLICK enables/disables FF
14:18<TrueBrain>otherwise people will never find the window honestly
14:18<frosch123>added a second suggestion
14:19<TrueBrain>you are not the first to suggest that :)
14:19<TrueBrain>I tried it
14:19<TrueBrain>it feels shit
14:19<TrueBrain>the short summary :)
14:19<TrueBrain>it was easier to implement a dropdown
14:19<TrueBrain>but it is really crappy without new icons
14:19<TrueBrain>you have no real visual feedback of the speed the game is trying to run on, was my main issue
14:19<TrueBrain>but I have some other ideas for the GUI I am going to try .. see if they feel a bit better :)
14:20<TrueBrain>will be a lot of trial and error :D
14:21<frosch123>i don't understand your "multiplayer" TODO item. do you want to allow changing speed in multiplayer?
14:21<TrueBrain>yes
14:22<frosch123>non-dedicated server only?
14:22<frosch123>i mean: who is allowed to change speed?
14:22<TrueBrain>no, I had a dedicated server in mind for that
14:22<andythenorth>hmm
14:22<TrueBrain>dunno
14:22<TrueBrain>could be like pause
14:22<TrueBrain>but I guess server-owner for now
14:22<TrueBrain>console command
14:23<andythenorth>how would I normalise a cargo age malus to vehicle speed?
14:23<andythenorth>malus unit is days
14:23<andythenorth>vehicles have different speeds :P
14:23<andythenorth>so vehicle stats progression tends to eliminate the malus :P
14:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: I am really just experimenting with this, see if anything sticks, and is useful
14:24<TrueBrain>so I was thinking of making "set game_speed 25" possible, so the game would run 1/4th of the speed
14:24<TrueBrain>no clue if it works or if it is even enjoyable
14:25<frosch123>it's as useful as youtube slow playing
14:25<frosch123>you use it to look at details, to stop trains in specific positions, debugging...
14:25<frosch123>for regular playing the vehicle movement will look ugly :)
14:26<frosch123>7.5 fps vehicle movement is ugly :)
14:26<TrueBrain>something I also would like to fix :)
14:26<TrueBrain>but .. something something .. 8bpp :P
14:26<TrueBrain>but mainly, I want to find a nice looking GUI for game-speed
14:26<TrueBrain>and I have something in mind, but I have to custom draw it
14:26<TrueBrain>so I keep postponing starting with it :P
14:26<TrueBrain>which is really funny :D
14:27<frosch123>many games just have two hotkeys: slower, faster
14:27<TrueBrain>I know various of ways games do it .. from <tab toggles speed> betwen 1x, 2x, 4x and 8x
14:27<TrueBrain>to a debug-setting only
14:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSjo
14:29<andythenorth>Warcraft 1 just has increments with arrows, very 1995 GUI
14:29<andythenorth>< Faster >
14:29<TrueBrain>https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1663690/108606417-53161700-73ba-11eb-8695-97361c9fa37c.png <- I was thinking something like this, with far less "dots", where the "dots" are 1x, 2x, 4x etc .. also allows us to show how fast the simulation is really running
14:29<andythenorth>< Fastest > etc
14:30<TrueBrain>(with a vertical line on that horizontal)
14:30<frosch123>make it flashing red when it cannot keep up
14:30<frosch123>show cpu temperature
14:31<TrueBrain>the first suggestion, some visual feedback, is good .. but after that you are pushing it :P
14:32<TrueBrain>I will also push the dropdown solution btw, so people can look at that too (well, not via a PR, but I will figure out something)
14:33<TrueBrain>and if anyone has any other ideas, I am all ears :)
14:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering https://git.io/Jt9ev
14:34<frosch123>acoustic feedback! play a sample of some ship diesel under different loads
14:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8707: Codechange: [OSX] Only keep a total dirty rect for drawing. https://git.io/Jt9eI
14:35<TrueBrain>sorry, I should have said: "useful ideas" :)
14:35<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I was wondering about that ... :D
14:35<+michi_cc>andythenorth: ^^^^^^ This PR might or might not do anything for you.
14:35<+michi_cc>Damn, wrong PR title :)
14:35<andythenorth>oo :)
14:36<andythenorth>I will try shortly, in the middle of cargo aging tests :)
14:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9eO
14:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9ec
14:37<TrueBrain>minor questions :)
14:38<TrueBrain>frosch123: would be fun if the simulation cannot keep up, you here explosion sound
14:38<TrueBrain>:D
14:39<frosch123>there are wind and heavy-wind samples
14:39<TrueBrain>anyway, just to check, do you like this idea at all? Or you think it is stupid? :)
14:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9ea
14:40<frosch123>it really depend on the final gui
14:40<frosch123>it's like transparency options: most of the time you only press "x" to toggle your common presets
14:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9ei
14:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9eP
14:41<frosch123>i don't expect people to change FF speed all the time. rather toggle their usual preset
14:41<TrueBrain>good point, something to keep in mind
14:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9e1
14:43<frosch123>you could call it "toolbar", like WC_TRANSPARENCY_TOOLBAR
14:43<frosch123>WC_SPEED_TOOLBAR
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14:43<frosch123>then you can also make it DARK_GREEN (i already forgot which colour you used)
14:44<TrueBrain>same as all the other toolbars
14:44<TrueBrain>as I like things being the same :)
14:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9eN
14:45<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I don't understand the framerate measure thing, so I am just a bit scared :) I was fiddling a bit with it with SDL, as it also counts the time when there is nothing to do
14:45<TrueBrain>giving a much lower value than it really should
14:45<TrueBrain>but I found out I don't really grasp what it is doing exactly :P
14:45<TrueBrain>hence the annoying questions :)
14:45<TrueBrain>I also do not know what we want the value to show
14:46<TrueBrain>like .. "worst" time in a second?
14:46<TrueBrain>average?
14:46<TrueBrain>lowest?
14:46<andythenorth>michi_cc any particular way to test this PR?
14:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9ve
14:47<andythenorth>the game is already fast enough again on mac, I don't trust subjective 'feels faster' any more
14:47<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Run it. And see if cursor movements feels more immediate.
14:47<andythenorth>ok
14:47<andythenorth>cursor is already instant everywhere I try
14:47*andythenorth tests
14:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9vT
14:49<+michi_cc>andythenorth: It's entirely possible that OSX controls physical screen updates anyway. Then you'd not see a difference.
14:49<TrueBrain>so with your PR all video drivers are now driven by us, the video output .. that is pretty sweet :)
14:50<andythenorth>is there any possibility that this makes FFWD 2x as fast as a few days ago michi_cc ?
14:50<andythenorth>otherwise something else has
14:50<andythenorth>I benchmarked a specific save in multiple areas of the map
14:51<+michi_cc>I don't think so. It might have been TB's earlier driver refactor.
14:51<TrueBrain>less dirty-draws might be faster?
14:51<andythenorth>yeah I loaded the wrong save
14:51<andythenorth>was the wrong game date
14:52<andythenorth>numbers are back where I expected
14:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSt9
14:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9vz
14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9eI
14:57<TrueBrain>I am so happy you don't mind fixing my OCD :D
14:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9vd
15:03<andythenorth>now that we have lots of performance, we can have YACD back, right? :P
15:05<TrueBrain>yet-another-collosal-deathwish?
15:06<andythenorth>nearly correct
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15:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8707: [OSX] Draw immediately instead of waiting for the event loop. https://git.io/Jt9eI
15:14<TrueBrain>really cool michi_cc :D
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15:41<supermop_Home>alright, work more on log flume?
15:43<andythenorth>now that you fixed ogfx
15:43<andythenorth>seems fair
15:44<supermop_Home>the side boards of the flume could use a bit more love
15:44<supermop_Home>mostly need to get the log offsets dialed in, but hard to do when one cant see the log
15:45<supermop_Home>then add fun splashes
15:46<supermop_Home>then figure out how to apply same abuses to make a nice Alweg
15:48<supermop_Home>killing time while work computer runs batches of renders
15:54<supermop_Home>temperate ogfx hotel also needs help
15:58<+glx>TrueBrain: seems there's a missing "override" in sdl2_v.h
15:59<TrueBrain>didn't I fix that already?
15:59<TrueBrain>I remember I was like, yes, I knew that, let me fix that
15:59<TrueBrain>I didn't?
15:59<TrueBrain>boy, I am getting old :(
15:59<+glx>well latest CI run reports it
16:00<andythenorth>hmm special pax cargos
16:01<TrueBrain>I am not doubting the CI nor you glx :)
16:01<supermop_Home>andythenorth foamers?
16:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8708: Fix ec1dd0bf: missing override causing compiler warnings https://git.io/Jt9Tf
16:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8708: Fix ec1dd0bf: missing override causing compiler warnings https://git.io/Jt9TL
16:04<TrueBrain>I really cannot believe I didn't fix that .. owh well
16:05<LordAro>i even told you about it and everything
16:05<LordAro>honestly.
16:05<TrueBrain>and I even acknowledged it!
16:05<TrueBrain>that is the worst part
16:06<TrueBrain>no clue what happened between that and ... well .. merge
16:06<TrueBrain>I really am getting old :'(
16:06<andythenorth>same reason I bisected for a known bug
16:06<andythenorth>old!
16:06*LordAro ponders fixing that bug
16:06<TrueBrain>getting old?
16:06<TrueBrain>don't do anythingfdrastic please
16:06<TrueBrain>you scare me :)
16:10<andythenorth>ha ha
16:10*andythenorth has idea
16:11<andythenorth>restaurant car randomly reduces run cost of other vehicles in train
16:11<andythenorth>to reflect that people may or may not eat a lot of pies
16:11<andythenorth>the main thing is this absolves me from detailed testing :)
16:13<TrueBrain>glx: did you see that windows-2016, vcpkg cache step fails?
16:13<+glx>hmm wrong tar used again ?
16:13<TrueBrain>nope
16:13<TrueBrain>well
16:13<TrueBrain>kinda
16:13<TrueBrain>another one for sure
16:13<TrueBrain>but the error is odd as fuck :P
16:14<TrueBrain>it uses the GNU tar, which windows-latest doesn't
16:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8708: Fix ec1dd0bf: missing override causing compiler warnings https://git.io/Jt9Tf
16:14<TrueBrain>I do kinda agree with Lukka btw that we should stop using these custom build-steps, and just use cmake --build
16:14<TrueBrain>which does all the MSVC stuff for us
16:14<TrueBrain>doesn't solve vcpkg btw
16:15<TrueBrain>but okay .. bit done with GHA for a while .. nothing is broken, so who cares really :)
16:17<+glx>indeed very weird failure: /usr/bin/tar: c\:\vcpkg: Cannot stat: No such file or directory
16:18<TrueBrain>I think the GHA expects Windows tar
16:18<TrueBrain>not GNU tar
16:18<LordAro>mm, path mangling
16:18<+glx>oh it's because windows-2019 has tar
16:18<+glx>but not previous versions
16:19*andythenorth quits playing tanks
16:19<andythenorth>when the Definitely Balanced Matchmaker gives you teams of 40% players
16:19<andythenorth>it's not fun
16:19<LordAro>andythenorth: didn't have anyone else to carry you?
16:19<LordAro><3
16:20<LordAro>(that's me playing tanks)
16:20<andythenorth>MMO games eh
16:20<andythenorth>every loss is everyone else's fault
16:20<LordAro>havne't played WoT in quite some months, maybe i should give it a go
16:20<andythenorth>I only play Blitz
16:20<andythenorth>hmm, I'll need some random bits on reload
16:21<andythenorth>frosch123 random_switch is 'no'?
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16:31<LordAro>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp#L468 anyone got any idea why this *2 is here?
16:32<andythenorth>are RV speed units half?
16:32*andythenorth looks in wiki
16:32<TrueBrain>there was something odd with RVs
16:32<andythenorth>RVs are speed in mph * 3.2
16:32<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp#L439
16:32<andythenorth>trains are 1.6
16:32<TrueBrain>there it is done too :)
16:33<LordAro>interesting
16:33<+glx>I can try to move away from run-cmake
16:33<TrueBrain>I found cmake --build . to work excellent
16:33<TrueBrain>guess we should do that on all platforms tbh
16:33<TrueBrain>instead of "make" and all the other types
16:33<andythenorth>hmm can I multiply a running cost by random 1-10% in nml?
16:33<TrueBrain>put CMake in control :)
16:33<+michi_cc>Indeed, RV speed is mph*3.2 while the bridge newgrf prop seems to fixed to mph*1.6
16:33<andythenorth>or do I have to do it all on returning results?
16:34<+glx>but run-vcpkg simplifies caching
16:34<andythenorth>and how DO random triggers work? :P
16:34<+glx>(when it works)
16:36<LordAro>hmm, there are a lot of /2 surrounding roadtypeinfo max_speed
16:38<frosch123>rv and ships have a factor /2
16:38*FLHerne looks at Horse nml
16:38<FLHerne>Just how many recolour_sprites can one thing need?
16:38<frosch123>aircraft used to have a different factor, but now use the train unit
16:39<andythenorth>FLHerne funny you say that
16:39<andythenorth>Horse is relatively conservative
16:39<frosch123>andythenorth: nml does not help much with random_actions :)
16:39<andythenorth>FLHerne I don't do cargo colouring with recolour_sprites
16:40<andythenorth>FLHerne I'm always scared of them :P
16:40<frosch123>we need to change nml to provide a better random_switch
16:40<andythenorth>I want to randomly reduce run costs for the whole consist if it has a restaurant car
16:40<andythenorth>I'll probably need to pick the random bits out of the restaurant car vehicle with var 0x61
16:40<frosch123>what part of that is "random"?
16:40<supermop_Home>I've put a tiny little pink spotlight over each cocktail in this rendering to make them look more appetizing
16:41<andythenorth>it should vary on load, or reload or something
16:41<andythenorth>or 32 day callback
16:41<supermop_Home>digital cocktails better than meatspace cocktails?
16:41<andythenorth>supermop_Home unlikely
16:41<andythenorth>but maybe
16:41<andythenorth>frosch reduction would be 1-25% or something
16:41<frosch123>andythenorth: the front engine can check whether a restaurant car is present (if you have a unique id for it)
16:41<andythenorth>yup, got that part
16:41<FLHerne>But most players will have multiple trains with restaurant cars, so your random factor will average out and be meaningless
16:42<frosch123>it does not matter which random bits you use
16:42<FLHerne>(of course, most players will never notice even if they have one)
16:42<andythenorth>there are other things that might be using triggers already
16:42<frosch123>why do you want to use those of the restauarant car? are they more random than other bits?
16:42<andythenorth>I've had unwanted behaviour from triggers interacting 'unexpectedly'
16:43<andythenorth>unexpected to me :P
16:43<frosch123>triggers do not trigger when the random_switch is a callback
16:43<andythenorth>I wanted to use some that are in safe sandbox
16:43<frosch123>that's their main problem
16:43<andythenorth>ok
16:43<andythenorth>hmm
16:44<frosch123>if you want to use triggers, yuo have to insert a dummy random_switch at the top of the graphics chain
16:44<frosch123>give it the bits it shall rerandomise
16:44<frosch123>and then only define one case to continue unconditionally
16:44<frosch123>then add a random_switch without triggers into the callback, and somehow get nml to make them use the same random bits
16:45<andythenorth>sounds simple :D
16:45<frosch123>probably by adding a "dependant" thing
16:45<frosch123>it would be nicer if nml would do that magic :)
16:45<andythenorth>how do I specify which bits to rerandomise? I am overlooking that somewhere in the wiki
16:46<frosch123>it rerandomised those bits, which the switch uses :p
16:46<frosch123>so it depends on which bits the switch uses
16:46<NGC3982>evening.
16:46<andythenorth>I have a feeling that is magically abstracted for me :P
16:47<andythenorth>I don't really understand random switch, I've been just picking bits out manually when I need them
16:47<andythenorth>fewer surprises
16:47<andythenorth>hmm, the actual feature could be random per vehicle, doesn't really matter
16:48<andythenorth>player can't see run cost anyway
16:48<TrueBrain>owh, this reply on "the forum thread" is hilarious :)
16:48<andythenorth>could just use the vehicle's bits
16:48<andythenorth>I don't really care what they are
16:48<andythenorth>or if they get retriggered
16:48<andythenorth>this whole restaurant car feature...it's not trolling exactly...but nobody should be looking too closely at the gameplay value P
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16:50<andythenorth>TrueBrain so are there some giant pictures there proving that max map height didn't work as expected?
16:50*andythenorth puzzled
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16:50<andythenorth>seems to be proving that map gen was broken in 1.10.3
16:51<TrueBrain>it proofs people have no clue what max-height does, yes :) And they are not wrong to not understand :P
16:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: I still have no idea why you think it should be random
16:51<andythenorth>FLHerne which 'it'? :)
16:51<FLHerne>It takes a feature that no-one will notice, and turns it into a feature that no-one will notice and also makes everything even more complicated
16:51<LordAro>interesting
16:52<FLHerne>Your restaurant bonus
16:52<LordAro>road vehicles appear to always take the shorter route, regardless of bridge speed
16:52<andythenorth>FLHerne making it random means I don't have to set up a dedicated test game, and test 1900, 1930, 1960, 1990, 2020
16:52<FLHerne>LordAro: There's a bug for that
16:52<andythenorth>over different lengths of route
16:52<LordAro>FLHerne: no, that bug is for roadtypes
16:52<andythenorth>random is random
16:52<LordAro>this is standard roads
16:53<LordAro>and the code (linked above) suggests that it should be accounted for
16:53<FLHerne>LordAro: Eh, I guessed if the pathfinder did speed limits before someone would have put the roadtypes into it
16:53<supermop_Home>LordAro maybe the pathfinder knows the slow bridge is the more scenic route
16:53<FLHerne>Maybe that isn't how it doesn't work :p
16:53<LordAro>FLHerne: that's the roadtypes bit, yes
16:53<LordAro>i've sorted that
16:53<LordAro>but this is (likely) pre-roadtypes
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16:53<andythenorth>TrueBrain that Alpinist picture though - that's not a defensible outcome IMHO :)
16:54<andythenorth>could just be very selective screenshot, I'll test
16:54<TrueBrain>I am happy to see the terrain generator now does what I expect it to do :)
16:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: I *really* don't understand how randomizing the effect means you have to test *less* :-/
16:55<TrueBrain>but I love the map with 70 max height and 80 snow
16:55<TrueBrain>it shows once again how silly the max-height setting is :)
16:55<andythenorth>FLHerne don't have to 'balance'
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16:55<TrueBrain>I still kinda want to make it do what people expect it to do, but it will be a rabbit hole weeks deep :)
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16:56<LordAro>FLHerne: https://pasteboard.co/JPhQd7D.png
16:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: But with any appreciable number of vehicles it'll average out to some constant value anyway, and that doesn't need balancing less than an actual constant?
16:56<supermop_Home>FLHerne I think his thinking is 'if it is always wrong, I never have to check that it is right'
16:56<FLHerne>While being harder to test because statistics
16:56<andythenorth>you are both correct
16:57<andythenorth>it will average to 10! / 10 or something if it's 1-10%?
16:57*FLHerne flails hands helplessly
16:57*andythenorth not very statistics
16:57<supermop_Home>LordAro that temperate hotel... :'(
16:58<andythenorth>Alpinist with low snowline is definitely sub-optimum
16:58<TrueBrain>what makes me giggle most about the forum thread, honestly, of all the changes we accepted in the last 3 months ... THIS is the one that causes a scene :)
16:58<andythenorth>it's not unplayable
16:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: It'll average to 5.5%
16:58<TrueBrain>I would have given 20 other PRs I merged I expected this to happen with
16:58<TrueBrain>but not this one :D
16:58<andythenorth>TrueBrain this is why this kind of stuff doesn't get touched
16:58<TrueBrain>"This is the sword I die on" :D
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16:58<supermop_Home>TrueBrain quick change lots of other stuff while people are distracted!
16:58<TrueBrain>supermop_Home: sssttt, I already did :P
16:58<andythenorth>most devs here are still recovering from 'you can no longer flip vehicles in depot by default'
16:58<supermop_Home>time to remove ships
16:58<andythenorth>which was like 2008 or something
16:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: Assuming even distribution
16:59<supermop_Home>no one will notice til 1.14 or something
16:59<FLHerne>Which, given how grfs do randomness, is a stupid and wrong assumption
16:59<TrueBrain>well, though love for LC, but I stand by the choice we made, and I will die on that sword too :P
16:59<FLHerne>supermop_Home: All my networks will break :-(
17:00<supermop_Home>"we changed the subarctic generator back to 1.10.3, but now all subarctic grass is pink"
17:00<andythenorth>FLHerne make a counter proposal?
17:01<andythenorth>because digging through all the random triggers looks less and less appetitising
17:01<andythenorth>I was going to do % cost reduction on % loaded
17:01<supermop_Home>andythenorth some station rating hack probably the best?
17:01<andythenorth>because more passengers = more eccles cakes sold
17:01<andythenorth>supermop_Home not possible
17:01<supermop_Home>andythenorth that will desync
17:01<supermop_Home>based on my experience with trams
17:01<andythenorth>:o
17:02<andythenorth>what desynced?
17:02<supermop_Home>changed cargo decay based on % loaded
17:02<andythenorth>really?
17:02<andythenorth>oof
17:02<andythenorth>I do loading sprites on % loaded often
17:02<supermop_Home>idk I never play MP but changing the cargo decay stat while out of depot caused it apparently
17:03<supermop_Home>it seems like it shouldn't but I got a handful of reports of it
17:03<andythenorth>worth knowing, because I was about to do just that
17:03<supermop_Home>maybe its a bug?
17:03<Timberwolf>Interesting. I do just that, maybe I should test an MP game.
17:04<andythenorth>TrueBrain it's bad form to quote forum posts behind people's back, but this is the funniest "without respecting other styles of play than one's own"
17:04<andythenorth>given how little OpenTTD devs mostly play
17:04<Timberwolf>(Only for the preservation railways)
17:04<andythenorth>FLHerne so I can just take the % reduction as the static value that the random would have averaged to? :D
17:05<andythenorth>saving a lot of reading about random :)
17:06<supermop_Home>the switch was inspired by Melbourne where E class trams (and B class) can be a comfy light rail train to ride way out into the suburban hinterlands off peak, but are miserable at crush load
17:07<andythenorth>it's a good idea :D
17:07<andythenorth>if only cargo_age_period wasn't so crappy to test and balance
17:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: Yes, that was what I meant
17:07<supermop_Home>and its realistic, because I observed a lot more people "forgetting" to tap on with their farecards which it was full and standing
17:07<supermop_Home>*when it was
17:08<FLHerne>If it's randomised per-train, anyone with more than a handful will get the same result either way
17:08<andythenorth>yes
17:08<supermop_Home>randomized per month
17:08<andythenorth>hmm is there a floor under cargo aging? I think there is
17:08<andythenorth>yes the chart shows that
17:08<supermop_Home>the menu in some months being more appetizing than others
17:09<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Manual/Game%20Mechanics/Cargo%20income
17:09<andythenorth>"the time component will never be lower than 31"
17:09*andythenorth wonders if the aging gets reset when transferring?
17:10<andythenorth>and if cargo is aged on stations
17:10<Timberwolf>Speaking of different experiences based on loading, when the class 317s passed to TfL they became declassified (i.e. everything is standard class) but all the interiors remained, including this on some of them: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:First_Class_on_LO_Class_317-7.jpg
17:11<Timberwolf>If you're one of the first people on the train at rush hour, it's excellent.
17:11<Timberwolf>Otherwise... it's not.
17:11<andythenorth>wow so not commuter
17:12<Timberwolf>They were very end-of-life by that point.
17:12<supermop_Home>I recall even in 2012 some subsurface stock on circle or something that had essentially what looked like compartments to me
17:12<Timberwolf>Every so often you get a seat that's completely collapsed.
17:13<Timberwolf>supermop_Home: The really old stuff had some lateral seating.
17:13<Timberwolf>I think a few units with wooden floors survived as late as 2010-ish.
17:13<supermop_Home>this had little partitions between the 'booths'
17:13<supermop_Home>yeah I seen those either in 2011 or 2012
17:15<Timberwolf>Unrefurbished C stock, I'd guess. https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2001-5225
17:15<supermop_Home>contrast with hikari rail star in japan - when a 700 series shinkansen get cascaded to a more local / commuter level of service, they rip out the interior and replace with a more spartan one
17:16<Timberwolf>That's more normal here. South West Trains completely refurbished all the 455s/456s that got cascaded to them.
17:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8709: Change: Don't show global goals in company goal windows https://git.io/Jt9tF
17:17<supermop_Home>the rail star is still a shinkansen tho, so here I am with my Green Car rail pass stuck in essentially cattle class from Kobe to Fukuoka for hours as the train has no green car...
17:17<TrueBrain>right, lets see if this reply helps calming LC down a bit :)
17:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8709: Change: Don't show global goals in company goal windows https://git.io/Jt9qJ
17:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8709: Change: Don't show global goals in company goal windows https://git.io/Jt9qT
17:18<TrueBrain>haha @ nielsm :D
17:18<TrueBrain>same thought, different solution :)
17:20<_dp_>I was thinking to just add that line in the gamescript
17:21<supermop_Home>TrueBrain just rename max height to 'clamp' or 'cutoff' or something?
17:21<_dp_>Button would be nice I guess but where to put it? in the title bar?
17:21<TrueBrain>or ... remove it, I know, shocker :D
17:21<TrueBrain>_dp_: other windows do this
17:21<TrueBrain>that is why I went there
17:21<TrueBrain>I would never have done it myself :D
17:21<supermop_Home>TrueBrain I am sure some maniac wants those ugly chopped mountains
17:22<supermop_Home>but it definitely should not be there in the new map window
17:22<TrueBrain>supermop_Home: yeah ... would that give another nice thread? :D
17:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8709: Change: Don't show global goals in company goal windows https://git.io/Jt9qs
17:23<supermop_Home>"1.11 beta forces players to play with pointy mountains!!!!"
17:24<_dp_>max height is kinda useful for generating super flat maps
17:24<frosch123>wow, i didn't even know there is a global goals window
17:24<TrueBrain>for doing the exact opposite the name suggests, yes :)
17:24<_dp_>well, if min is lowered because default 15 isn't xD
17:24<frosch123>i always just pressed the button, and did not check the dropdown
17:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: :D I had the same :P
17:26<supermop_Home>rename it "Mountain chop factor"
17:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8709: Change: Don't show global goals in company goal windows https://git.io/Jt9qR
17:27<TrueBrain>supermop_Home: "hop chop this value makes mountains go flllaaaatttttt
17:27<TrueBrain>no, honestly, I want to do either of these two: either make max-height auto-detected from the mapgen, and/or make max-height influence the mapgen
17:27*andythenorth makes TrueBrain flat
17:28<andythenorth>and then supermop_Home flat
17:28<andythenorth>flatten all
17:28<TrueBrain>but I have to look into the code more to make a more educated opinion
17:28<_dp_>frosch123, I couldn't find a single gs that would use both global and company goals for their intended purpose
17:28<TrueBrain>_dp_: define "intended purpse"
17:28<_dp_>one uses global goals but not company
17:28<_dp_>TrueBrain, that uses global goals to show global goals :p
17:29<_dp_>all but one show company rankings there :p
17:29<TrueBrain>yeah, just trying to avoid confusion here :)
17:29<supermop_Home>Need a GS with the global goal to flatten all mountains
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17:30<andythenorth>original AI?
17:30<andythenorth>such terraform
17:31<supermop_Home>my biggest gripe about terrain generation is the weird pyramid holes up in mountains and valleys that do not have an outlet
17:32<TrueBrain>ideally we get a student that rewrite it for college credits :)
17:32<supermop_Home>or when a river stops in a 6 tile lake like 4 tiles away from the ocean
17:32<supermop_Home>OpenTTD LLC hires an intern?
17:35<frosch123>_dp_: sure, but in that case i still only want to press the goals toolbar button to see the goals
17:35<frosch123>the dropdown is useful to see goals of other companies, just like you can see vehicles of other companies
17:36<frosch123>but the global goals in inconvenient to reach, for how often i would want to look at them, if a gs has global goals
17:37<_dp_>frosch123, so you think it's convenient to scroll down each time to get company goals? :p
17:37<_dp_>and there are way more gamescripts that use global goals for rankings rathere than actual goals
17:37<frosch123>you said, no gs has both, so you never scroll
17:38<_dp_>both in a sense of actual goals
17:38<_dp_>plenty use global goals for other stuff
17:39<frosch123>ah, now i understand those screenshots
17:39<frosch123>i hate citybuilders
17:40<LordAro>https://pasteboard.co/JPi841H.png i fear this may be getting out of hand
17:40<TrueBrain>fooooooooooo
17:40<TrueBrain>:D
17:40<TrueBrain>as long as you understand those numbers :P
17:40<LordAro>i'm not entirely certain, but it feels like the cost for a road vehicle might be too high
17:40<LordAro>er
17:41<LordAro>pathfinder cost for a road vehicle turning a corner*
17:41<LordAro>road has no speed limit, tube bridge has high speed limit, wood bridge has low speed limit
17:41<LordAro>i would expect the road vehicle to take the road
17:42<LordAro>but it carries on over the wooden bridge
17:42<TrueBrain>it enjoys the view?
17:42<LordAro>(train works as expected, takes the faster bridge)
17:42<supermop_Home>TrueBrain that's what I said!
17:43<TrueBrain>LordAro: turning a corner is expensive after all :)
17:43<TrueBrain>from a PF point of view, the other tunnel takes 2 more tiles
17:43<TrueBrain>doesn't that balance out the speed limit?
17:43<TrueBrain>what if you put the wooden bridge on equal road-length?
17:44<TrueBrain>(by moving the depot 1 tile to NE)
17:44<TrueBrain>tunnel? bridge, lol
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17:46<LordAro>TrueBrain: yeah, that works https://pasteboard.co/JPiaQPz.png (i tried swapping them to be sure it wasn't just random)
17:47<TrueBrain>I don't know how much the wooden bridge limits the speed
17:47<TrueBrain>but 2 more tiles is hefty
17:47<TrueBrain>on such a small stretch
17:47<LordAro>32kph vs 611kph
17:47<LordAro>it's quite significant
17:48<TrueBrain>max speed of bus?
17:48<LordAro>127
17:48<TrueBrain>@calc (127 - 32) * 8
17:48<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 760
17:48<TrueBrain>@calc 760/4
17:48<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 190
17:49<TrueBrain>hmm .. that seems a bit overpriced, yes
17:49<TrueBrain>depending on how the penalty of speed-difference is calculated, ofc
17:49<LordAro>by my extremely rough counting, it takes an extra 9s for it to cross the wooden bridge vs tube bridge (on same distance route)
17:50<TrueBrain>@calc 760/127
17:50<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 5.984251968503937
17:50<TrueBrain>2 tiles extra count for 6
17:50<TrueBrain>corners or not, that is just a bit too agressive
17:50<andythenorth>hmm if restaurant cars work what else can I do?
17:51<andythenorth>observation car?
17:51<andythenorth>bar car?
17:51<TrueBrain>LordAro: guess the question is, is it corners that have a too high penalty, or is it speed limit that is calculated weirdly :)
17:51<LordAro>i'm pretty certain the speed limit is fine
17:51<LordAro>(it's the same one as for trains)
17:52<TrueBrain>I dunno how our PF works, but can you dump H-values?
17:52<TrueBrain>does it have a nice place where it shows its heuristic value?
17:53<TrueBrain>as that should be easy to see ofc .. 2 busses on 2 roads with different bridges
17:53<TrueBrain>and check the cost of the path for both
17:54<supermop_Home>andythenorth certainly bar car
17:54<LordAro>https://pasteboard.co/JPidTRF.png same number of corners
17:54<supermop_Home>trolley service?
17:54<LordAro>still picks wooden bridge
17:54<LordAro>maybe road tiles as a whole are too expensive?
17:54<supermop_Home>build sandwich shop at station for passengers to take to-go
17:55<andythenorth>supermop_Home station tiles :P
17:55<TrueBrain>or speed limit is not addressed sufficiently :)
17:55<andythenorth>a whole other transport game mechanic we lack :D
17:55<andythenorth>nvm
17:55<andythenorth>we have grf
17:55<TrueBrain>dumping the cost of both routes will give you an indication LordAro :)
17:56<LordAro>TrueBrain: i think that's what i've got with my "segment x -> y" statements
17:56<supermop_Home>slider for cleaning funding to reduce the amount stations smell like urine
17:57<supermop_Home>"the ammonia cargo rating for this station is horrible because the station smells"
17:57<TrueBrain>LordAro: your screenshot only shows me the cost of 1 of the paths
17:57<TrueBrain>83a5 to 8ca5 is not shown :)
17:59<TrueBrain>LordAro: does that other bridge have a minimum speed?
17:59<FLHerne>frosch123/LordAro: I see that POP_WORD is 'deprecated' in favour of SKIP in grfstrings.py, but in the wiki there's only POP_WORD and SKIP isn't listed
17:59<FLHerne>Should I change the wiki?
17:59<TrueBrain>the penalty for speed is the difference between max vehicle speed and max bridge speed
17:59<FLHerne>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Language_files#String_parameters
18:00<LordAro>nothing has any minimum speed, afaict
18:00<FLHerne>(tbh, I find POP_WORD clearer about what it does...)
18:00<TrueBrain>default tile is 100 penalty
18:00<TrueBrain>@calc 127 - 32
18:00<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 95
18:01<TrueBrain>so every tile on the wooden bridge is as 2 normal tiles, I guess
18:01<FLHerne>^ actually I should ask Yexo, it was his commit 10 years ago :p
18:01<frosch123>FLHerne: i don't know the status of nml, but in ottd all those positional things are deprecated
18:01<frosch123>they make no sense in translations, when translations can reorder parameters anyway
18:02<frosch123>POP_WORD is probably deprecated, because NML uses 32bit ints for everything, so words don't fit
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18:03<TrueBrain>int max_veh_speed = v->GetDisplayMaxSpeed(); <- "Display" always scares me a bit
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18:03<andythenorth>restaurant car becomes observation car if at back of train? o_O
18:03*andythenorth could, code supports it
18:04<frosch123>FLHerne: so my theory: nml had POP_WORD first. then copied SKIP from ottd, and then ottd dropped SKIP :p
18:04<LordAro>TrueBrain: https://pasteboard.co/JPih9Qr.png & https://pasteboard.co/JPihZZH.png
18:04<TrueBrain>LordAro: penalty on rails is a lot higher for speed difference btw
18:05<FLHerne>frosch123: andy is using SKIP in at least one thing, which is why I tried to look it up in the first place
18:05<frosch123>FLHerne: nml also has "str_pos". so it's okay to deprecate both SKIP and POP_WORD
18:05<frosch123>assuming it works :p
18:06<FLHerne>andythenorth: all the hidden features
18:07<TrueBrain>LordAro: I would make 2 unconnected bridge
18:07<TrueBrain>so you can really see the difference in the score
18:07<TrueBrain>now it is hard to deduce what the PF did
18:08<LordAro>TrueBrain: unconnected bridge? i don't follow
18:08<TrueBrain>just a simple road, depot, bridge, depot
18:08<LordAro>you mean without any junctions?
18:08<LordAro>right
18:08<TrueBrain>:)
18:08<TrueBrain>I cannot see now if it picked one bridge over the other
18:08<TrueBrain>so the scores don't really indicate what it thought each segment was
18:09<LordAro>trouble is, it needs a junction to do any pathfinding at all :p
18:09<TrueBrain>so make one
18:09<TrueBrain>just not with bridges
18:09<LordAro>ah yes
18:09<TrueBrain>long long route around it
18:10<TrueBrain>like via another town :P
18:10<TrueBrain>road: segment_cost += 1 * (max_veh_speed - max_speed);
18:10<TrueBrain>rail: extra_cost += YAPF_TILE_LENGTH * (max_veh_speed - max_speed) * (4 + tf->m_tiles_skipped) / max_veh_speed;
18:10<TrueBrain>rail has a huge penalty on speedloss
18:10<+glx>so I have https://github.com/glx22/OpenTTD/pull/9/files
18:11<TrueBrain>glx: that already looks a lot less magic :D
18:11<TrueBrain>some newlines and EOF trick for "cmake .." line will also help
18:11<+glx>not powershell friendly :)
18:11<+glx>but I can switch to bash
18:11<TrueBrain>switch the shell to bash :P :P
18:11<TrueBrain>:D
18:12<LordAro>TrueBrain: https://pasteboard.co/JPill5J.png & https://pasteboard.co/JPikCC6n.png
18:13<TrueBrain>100 difference in penalty, lol
18:13<TrueBrain>the length of a single tile
18:13<TrueBrain>no wonder you get shitty results
18:13<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp#L164 <- I wonder what "max_speed" and "max_veh_speed" is, in what unit mostly
18:13<TrueBrain>as I expected a higher difference
18:14<TrueBrain>but I think if you change that penalty to "YAPF_TILE_LENGTH * (max_veh_speed - max_speed) * / max_veh_speed;", the result might already be better
18:14<TrueBrain>blind guess btw :P
18:15<LordAro>seems plausible
18:16<TrueBrain>what is "wrong" about the current code, it fully depends on in what unit "max-speed" is
18:16<TrueBrain>it is not normalized towards any penalty
18:16<TrueBrain>which is a bit odd, to say the least
18:17<TrueBrain>means that by luck (or in this case, no luck) it competes with penalties
18:17<TrueBrain>that said, the speeds you give, and given max_speed should be in ~km/h, it should have been okay-ish
18:18<LordAro>the ones that come out of GetSpeedLimit are "rv units"
18:18<TrueBrain>what is the value of that?
18:18<LordAro>3.2 * kmh, as per andy
18:18<LordAro>(i.e. double trains, for some reason)
18:19<TrueBrain>int32 max_speed = e->GetDisplayMaxSpeed(); // km-ish/h
18:19<TrueBrain>guess comment is a lie
18:19<TrueBrain>:)
18:19<TrueBrain>wouldn't be the first time :P
18:19<TrueBrain>anyway, if you can dump those values around that place
18:19<TrueBrain>might give us a better insight
18:20<TrueBrain>(I assumed you were debugging YAPF btw :P)
18:21<LordAro>those were the original 64 & 1216 numbers from https://pasteboard.co/JPi841H.png
18:21<LordAro>which is just 2*kmh
18:22<TrueBrain>so the bridge is 64, and the vehicle is 1216?
18:22<LordAro>tubular is 1216, i think
18:22<TrueBrain>ah, that makes more sense
18:22<TrueBrain>k
18:22<LordAro>611 * 2 ish
18:23<TrueBrain>debugging what "F.m_tiles_skipped" is when max_speed < max_veh_speed might also give an interesting result
18:23<TrueBrain>as, and this is just a hunch, it might be that it only calculates this penalty for 1 tile, instead of all tiles
18:23<LordAro>it's not touched by GetSpeedLimit, anyway
18:24<LordAro>ah, followtileexit
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18:24<LordAro>which is... something to do with the length of the tunnelbridge
18:24<LordAro>suspicious
18:25<TrueBrain>that would fit better by the problem .. you can validate it by changing the bridge length, and trying both roads again
18:25<TrueBrain>or debug the code :D
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18:26<TrueBrain>yeah, PF seems to skip bridges too
18:26<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp#L219
18:26<TrueBrain>(I am doing this all via github.com btw ... playing Factorio :P)
18:27<TrueBrain>so that speed penalty for road is very odd
18:27<TrueBrain>but be careful, if you fix this, you limit the way people can play the game
18:27<TrueBrain>just so you are aware :D :P :P :P
18:27<LordAro>oh dear
18:31<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I FOUND THE SOLUTION! (well, Xaroth did, but I am stealing it): https://i.redd.it/v91epait1oi61.jpg
18:31<Xaroth>:facepalm:
18:32<+glx>hmm I may retry to do vcpkg stuff without external action
18:32<andythenorth>very English
18:32<andythenorth>genuine UK Gov department logo
18:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8709: Change: Don't show global goals in company goal windows https://git.io/Jt9tF
18:35<TrueBrain>LordAro: yeah, your images clearly show the speed penalty was only taken over a single tile
18:35<TrueBrain>so that explains that moving your faster bridge 1 further away makes it skip it
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18:58<andythenorth>sleep
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19:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8710: Fix road pathfinder behaviour with speed limits on roadtypes/bridges https://git.io/Jt9GI
19:22<LordAro>right, bedtime
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19:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8710: Fix road pathfinder behaviour with speed limits on roadtypes/bridges https://git.io/Jt9GP
19:42<TrueBrain>There is a bug in that PR :D
19:43<TrueBrain>Min speed is missing the same thing as max
19:43<TrueBrain>Not logged in to GH on mobile, sadddd
19:43<LordAro>it is in the rail pathfinder too
19:43<LordAro>given there is nothing with a minimum speed anywhere, i didn't worry too much
19:44<TrueBrain>Really weird .. why would bridge length not matter all of a sudden
19:44<LordAro>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:45<LordAro>you'd have to ask the madman that wrote YAPF, it appears to date back that far
19:45<TrueBrain>Yeah ... let's not dwindle in the past too much :D
19:46<TrueBrain>It will take 20 years for someone to notice if that is broken, so who cares :D
19:46<TrueBrain>Took 10 years for someone to find this :p
19:47<TrueBrain>Right, bed, good idea, night!
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20:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering https://git.io/Jt9ev
20:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8706: Feature: rail station class name filtering https://git.io/Jt9ev
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 21 00:00:48 2021