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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-02-25

---Logopened Thu Feb 25 00:00:54 2021
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03:59<@peter1138>When following references stops working in VS Code...
04:01<@peter1138>When my knees smack the ridigity bar underneath my desk...
04:03<@peter1138>Made back when you had 35kg of monitor on it :)
04:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] orudge commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
04:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z opened pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can still have 35kg of monitor on your desk. just it would cover a larger screen area :p
04:45<LordAro>or be ridiculously retro
04:45<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: centre, not center
04:46<LordAro>unless you want to volunteer as en_US translator :p
04:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a terrible idea :p
04:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
04:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>the exclusive rights explanation might be clearer this way round?
04:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
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06:14<Strakaty>Hi all, I finally got to the point of building logic splitters. All my trains slowing down corectly in colored (PURR) ways, but their Max.Speed (visible in Train Details) is not changing at all. So conditional orders can't work. Is there any special additional in settings? My Game config - NUTS 0.8.4 , Firs 4.0.0, PURR 0.0.6 . OpenTTD 1.10.3
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06:26<Xaroth>I'm trying to keep a copy of the tile map (_m) to detect when changes have been done to chunks of tiles at a time. What/where would be the most sane way to copy the current tile map to this new copy after loading, somewhere at the end of AfterLoadGame right?
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, the max speed in the train details will not change depending on track type
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth: there's probably a better place for that somewhere around the function that calls AfterLoadGame
06:29<Xaroth>so that would be DoLoad, fair.
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>also, there's _m and _me, which you both need to copy
06:30<Xaroth>I'm only interested in _m
06:30<Xaroth>_me doesn't contain any information I'm tracking
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>just saying, if you need a general approach to look at the whole map, you need both
06:31<Xaroth>This is just basic information; tile type, tile owner, and tile height
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07:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
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07:28<Wuzzy>Requesting review for OpenSFX PR:
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07:36<@peter1138>Bringing that beer delivery indoors was hard work, I think it deserves a beer...
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07:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
07:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
07:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
07:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
07:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
08:00<@orudge>Wuzzy: will have a look just now
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08:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mattkimber commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
08:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge approved pull request #14: Change readme, license, descriptions
08:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge merged pull request #14: Change readme, license, descriptions
08:25<@orudge>Wuzzy: when you're able to rebase your other PR, I will try to take a look at that too
08:25<Wuzzy>wait, what?
08:25<Wuzzy>rebase? o_O
08:25<Wuzzy>ahh you merged #14
08:26<Wuzzy>orudge: ok thanks. yes this was the plan all along. #19 needs to be re-done because it was mostly a preview
08:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #2: Relicense OpenSFX under an actual FOSS license
08:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 closed issue #2: Relicense OpenSFX under an actual FOSS license
08:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
08:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
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08:40<Wuzzy>orudge: I've updated #19
08:40<LordAro>Wuzzy: we can see, you don't need to say anything ;)
08:40<supermop_Home>hi andythenorth
08:40<supermop_Home>peter1138 i agree re beer
08:42<supermop_Home>so i ideated, wrote, drew, added, and tested a whole new type of thing for my RV grf in one day yesterday, but can't really think of a good way to hype it up
08:43<supermop_Home>really not feeling up to making lots of pretty screenshots cropped to small resolution that will show in forum
08:44<supermop_Home>so just released grf on bananas with no forum noise
08:47<Xaroth>make lots of big screenshots to show on forum?
08:51<@orudge>Wuzzy: I'll need to check it out and do some testing, if I get a chance I'll do it tonight, but will depend on what other work I have to do
08:52<Wuzzy>i also try to figure it out what is goin on
08:56<Wuzzy>ah i think i found the problem. the description was missing in the .obs file after Make-ing
09:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
09:06<andythenorth>so native push-pull trains for 1.11?
09:06<andythenorth>(consist reversing in station)
09:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
09:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8743: Change: Default to a 32bpp blitter.
09:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #21: Update translations in 'lang' directory
09:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 closed issue #21: Update translations in 'lang' directory
09:21<Wuzzy>I think #19 is now merge-able 😊
09:22<supermop_Home>andythenorth from the shunting patch?
09:23<andythenorth>no idea, I got driven out of that thread
09:24<supermop_Home>didn't eddi have the idea to support old-style behavior with a delay to reverse?
09:24<supermop_Home>andythenorth i added cable cars
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i had loads of ideas, i don't remember this particular one
09:26<supermop_Home>don't have the energy to get cute pictures of it
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09:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 opened pull request #22: Shorten some description texts
09:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
09:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
09:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8744: Change: Clarify what effect town interactions have
09:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #22: Shorten some description texts
09:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #22: Shorten some description texts
09:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] orudge updated pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
09:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] orudge commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
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10:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
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10:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
10:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] orudge commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
10:07<LordAro>TrueBrain: bikeshedding!
10:12<Xaroth>At some point somebody's going to suggest keeping a list of every major.minor.revision version of macOS that is supported.
10:24<TrueBrain>well, we get questions, and answering them is annoying
10:24<TrueBrain>but yeah, bikeshedding
10:24<LordAro>damn users, getting confused by things that are unclear
10:24<LordAro>honestly, the nerve
10:24<TrueBrain>but I think my solution captures most questions I have seen and you have gotten, not?
10:25<TrueBrain>basically, mention what is hot
10:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
10:26<LordAro>TrueBrain: probably, yeah
10:28<TrueBrain>I mostly noticed that our expectations of our users are high :P
10:29<TrueBrain>we assume they understand things behind their little bubble :D
10:29<LordAro>need to find some non-technical mac users
10:31<TrueBrain>"macOS Maverick or newer, including Big Sur and M1 (10.9+, universal)"
10:31<TrueBrain>mixes both the technical terms and the ones on Apple's website
10:33<TrueBrain>Apple made this rather difficult :D
10:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
10:37<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Agree with orudge that including "M1" is a mistake, it'll need changing at some point
10:38<FLHerne>"macOS 10.9 Maverick and newer, including Apple Silicon devices" ?
10:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
10:38<TrueBrain>nothing wrong with changing the names constantly to address our market
10:38<FLHerne>If you're changing the text, you might as well change it to something that'll stay right for a while
10:39<TrueBrain>if we have to change it once a year, I mean .. boo-fucking-hoo :D
10:39<TrueBrain>but the worst thing we can have, is that a user lands on our website and asks himself: does this work on my machine?
10:39<TrueBrain>that is just terrible :)
10:39<TrueBrain>remember that for Windows we are also very explicit
10:40<TrueBrain>letters are still free, we have to remember :)
10:42<TrueBrain>we have to change the list at least once a year anyway, for our Debian flavours
10:42<TrueBrain>"Windows 95 / 98 / ME / 2000 / XP without SP3" <- talking about us being explicit :D Well, that build is no longer produced, ofc
10:52<TrueBrain>hmm ... I need pngs for all our SPR_ enums ... how hard can that be :P
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11:03<Zuu>I spoke with a friend on that most games are nowdays bought via Steam and gave OpenTTD as an example of a game that is still run outside of Steam unaware of the recent changes in that area. :D
11:04<TrueBrain>Zuu: :D So you set him right, right? :D
11:04<TrueBrain>also: hi!
11:04<Zuu>Annual Zuu entering chat :-p
11:05<TrueBrain>:D Always a pleasure :)
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11:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] orudge commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
11:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] orudge approved pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
11:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
11:07<Zuu>Also cool to see that Story book has been improved with push buttons. :-)
11:07<TrueBrain>and THAT is the feature you notice :D
11:07<TrueBrain>of allllll the things :P
11:07<TrueBrain><3 :D
11:07<Zuu>Yes, because I wanted to implement it before, but never was able to pull it off.
11:08<Zuu>But yeha. Lots of other new features :-)
11:09<TrueBrain>too little, too late :P
11:09<TrueBrain>:D I am just kidding ofc ;)
11:11<TrueBrain>so I just spend 10 minutes trying to figure out how this WWT_MATRIX got 11 rows .. only to find a magic value in the code setting the height of the widget, based on which the matrix calculates how many rows that are .. you got to love that :D
11:13<_dp_>the more I tinker with openttd ui code the more I want to burn it :p
11:17<TrueBrain>I said it before and I say it again: according to this channel, most parts of OpenTTD should be burnt :P
11:29<TrueBrain> another window I can render-ish :D
11:32<Zuu>TrueBrain: Reading git log looks like you have been productive with lots of plumbing with game/draw loops etc. and also updating the cheat window. :-)
11:32<TrueBrain>been all over the place, yes :D
11:33<LordAro>basically completely rewritten the video drivers
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11:33<TrueBrain>together with michi_cc , I think we did so, yes :)
11:33<TrueBrain>it was about thime :D
11:33<TrueBrain>it is so much nicer to play, really
11:33<LordAro>and added several new ones :p
11:35<TrueBrain>Zuu: and the biggest challenge for 1.12 .. redesign some of the UIs ...
11:35<TrueBrain>that will be fun :D
11:35<Zuu>Depends on how many people that need to agree on the new design :-)
11:36<TrueBrain>haha, very true :D
11:36<TrueBrain>well, so far the ideas are received well, so that is something at least
11:36*LordAro paints the bikeshed a sort of dark cyan
11:36<Xaroth>Mauve is much more appealing, LordAro
11:37<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Who says they're not right? :p
11:37<FLHerne>Burn the codebase and start over with OpenLoco
11:38<TrueBrain>hmm, I need to convert STR_ to dummy strings that are somewhat like the real string
11:38<TrueBrain>that will be interesting
11:38<_dp_>isn't locomotion somewhat of a failure in general?
11:39<LordAro>TrueBrain: some sort of arbitrary string seems more appropriate, given the variation in length of strings for different languages?
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11:39<TrueBrain>well, you need to understand what is meant with it
11:39<TrueBrain>otherwise it is difficult to understand mockups
11:40<TrueBrain>but yeah, you do have a point that only using English can be misleading
11:41<TrueBrain>guess that works :P
11:43<_dp_>oh, string system, definitely high on my burn list as well :p
11:43<LordAro>i'd agree with you there
11:43<TrueBrain>you rather use ... GetText? :o
11:44<Zuu>Oh no, can't we also support sign language in the UI?
11:44<Xaroth>Don't forget about braille
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>if you find a library for that
11:45<Zuu>braille is probably easier. It is more about wiring up with OS accessibility layers from what I understand.
11:45<Zuu>Then someone with a braillie monitor can read the text from OpenTTD similar to if they were using a screen reader. Just two different output systems.
11:47<Zuu>Sign language requires that strings can be videos. But it is not common in UIs to have sign language support.
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't even make any sense, because people who can see sign language can usually also read normal text.
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>also, there's no single "sign language", each language has their own sign language variant
11:49<Zuu>It can make some sense, because someone being ASL native has English as second language. But it is no different to other minority that don't have their native language supported.
11:52<Zuu>Yes you are right on there not being a single sign language. I only know the Swedish sign language and is quite poor in ASL.
11:54<TrueBrain>in other news: :D
11:54<TrueBrain>still need to implement PIP
11:56<_dp_>TrueBrain, what are you going to do with windows that have extra drawing code?
11:56<TrueBrain>absolutely 100% nothing
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11:59<_dp_>tbh, I'm not really getting why do you event want to render ui stuff in html
12:00<_dp_>a lot of ui depends on custom code and buttons you can just prototype wherever
12:10<+glx>he wants to easily move stuff around without needing to build and run openttd to check
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12:21<_dp_>compared to making the whole ui-to-hmtl thing building openttd doesn't seem that troublesome :p
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12:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #191: Change: Make it clearer that macOS 11 is supported
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13:21<frosch123>latest spam is interesting
13:22<frosch123>it may be written by an AI
13:23<frosch123> <- i just can't imagine a human writing something like that
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13:25<TrueBrain>lol ... a new way of using WikiPedia ...
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13:34<TrueBrain>child.padding_right = (child.padding_right || 0) + widget.pip_inter;
13:34<TrueBrain>I love writing ugly Javascript
13:41<TrueBrain> <- w00p, PIP applied
13:42<_dp_>on javascript scale that isn't ugly in a slightest :p
13:42<TrueBrain>the window system is really easy to process :)
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14:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
14:02<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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14:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8745: Fix: don't link to OpenGL with SDL2 as backend; SDL2 dynamically loads it
14:11<TrueBrain>glx: I went for a slightly different solution
14:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8745: Fix: don't link to OpenGL with SDL2 as backend; SDL2 dynamically loads it
14:13<TrueBrain>linking against a target can still make changes to things like compiler-flags .. silly enough :)
14:14<TrueBrain>target_link_libraries does a lot more than the name suggests :P
14:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8745: Fix: don't link to OpenGL with SDL2 as backend; SDL2 dynamically loads it
14:18<TrueBrain>although I doubt that is relevant for OpenGL's case, but meh
14:19<TrueBrain>and it is not like I really understand CMake, so I hope I got it right :P
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14:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8743: Change: Default to a 32bpp blitter.
14:31<TrueBrain>tssk, michi_cc can't even quantify "feels wrong"? :P :D <3
14:32<LordAro>TrueBrain: what does 'PUBLIC' signify in target_link_libraries?
14:33<TrueBrain>rtfm :P :D Just kidding :)
14:33<TrueBrain>you have PUBLIC, PRIVATE and INTERFACE
14:34<TrueBrain>"Libraries and targets following PUBLIC are linked to, and are made part of the link interface. Libraries and targets following PRIVATE are linked to, but are not made part of the link interface. Libraries following INTERFACE are appended to the link interface and are not used for linking <target>"
14:34<TrueBrain>so yeah ... makes sense? No? Awh :P
14:34<TrueBrain>this is the part I hate about CMake, as I think I understand 10% of what is going on there
14:35<TrueBrain>from what I have seen, INTERFACE can drag in extra arguments
14:35<TrueBrain>PRIVATE does the real linking (so the -l<bla>)
14:35<TrueBrain>PUBLIC does both
14:35<TrueBrain>the "say nothing" we used, implies PUBLIC-ish ..
14:36<TrueBrain>but if you use INTERFACE in ANY of a target, you have to use PUBLIC/PRIVATE/INTERFACE on all
14:40<TrueBrain>hmm .. on second look, with some experimenting ..
14:40<TrueBrain>it was suggested that with INTERFACE it would still drag in include paths
14:40<TrueBrain>but with freetype, it does not
14:40<TrueBrain>so it might all be bullshit :(
14:43<+michi_cc>Reading the description I'd have guessed PRIVATE was the proper thing for us. We want to link against it, but don't want others to know/depend about it.
14:44<TrueBrain>as "openttd" is the final binary, it doesn't really matter
14:44<TrueBrain>nobody is using it anymore, but yeah, strictly seen, you are absolutely correct
14:45<TrueBrain>I am just bumped INTERFACE doesn't keep the compile definitions
14:45<frosch123>i think those things only matter for static linking
14:48<frosch123>i would also claim that PRIVATE may reduce the binary size when linking statically. i know that linux linkers can remove unused symbols from executables, which you do not want if those symbold are used by dynamically loaded stuff
14:48<TrueBrain>I -think- these CMake things are CMake internally only, how it resolves targets
14:48<TrueBrain>but we can validate that
14:50<TrueBrain>identical link command is given to gcc, with both PUBLIC and PRIVATE
14:50<frosch123>yes, you are right
14:50<frosch123>"Is PUBLIC, PRIVATE, INTERFACE Part of the GCC/G++ Compiler No. Compilers, such as gcc and g++, do not have such mechanism. CMake invented those keywords for user to create a building graph that has very clear and explicit dependencies."
14:50<TrueBrain>so how do I only drag in compiler-definitions from an alias ...
14:51<TrueBrain>or we can just assume GL/gl.h is always in /usr/include :P
14:53<TrueBrain>I guess our usecase is a bit odd ..
14:53<TrueBrain>"I want to use the library but not really" :D
14:54<TrueBrain>hmm, libsdl2 depends on libgl in package managers
14:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8743: Change: Default to a 32bpp blitter.
14:54<TrueBrain>guess we could also say: it is up to SDL2 to ensure we have the right include path
14:55<@peter1138>OpenTTD 1.3.0-1... Hmm
14:56<@peter1138>Seems old.
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>only like 8 years :p
14:56<@peter1138>It's the RISC OS Pi version :-)
14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8743: Change: Default to a 32bpp blitter.
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>since openttd is dying, nothing really happened since then anyway :p
14:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8745: Fix: don't link to OpenGL with SDL2 as backend; SDL2 dynamically loads it
14:58<TrueBrain>simpler === better; less CMake magic
14:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #8743: Change: Default to a 32bpp blitter.
15:00<@peter1138>It's got a nice splashscreen though.
15:01<@peter1138>Actually it doesn't seem to go further than that.
15:01<@peter1138>I guess maybe it's stuck on a baseset.
15:04<+glx>TrueBrain: haha it's indeed simpler :)
15:04<+glx>anyway I liked the previous version too, way cleaner than my try
15:04<TrueBrain>it just didn't do what it said it did :P
15:12<TrueBrain>"if (lag > (uint)DAY_TICKS && cs->lag_test == 0 && cs->last_packet + 2000 > _realtime_tick) {" <- is it just me, or is that time-check really weird? Shouldn't that be "< _realtime_tick" ?
15:13<TrueBrain>owh, no, nevermind
15:13<TrueBrain>it is explicit meant to be weird
15:15<TrueBrain>it was not that a comment directly above that told me so, but what-ever, reading is for the weak
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15:16*andythenorth seeks entertainment
15:17<andythenorth>is this the correct place?
15:17<TrueBrain>OWH HE WENT THERE
15:17<andythenorth>that's really a rick-roll link to YT, right?
15:17<TrueBrain>I dunno, I never tried
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15:19<LordAro>andythenorth: try this one instead
15:21<Xaroth>There used to be a host you could telnet to to see that in your terminal
15:23<Xaroth>which is far less amusing as telnet star wars was.
15:24<TrueBrain>that moment that you replace _realtime_tick with std::chrono in the network layer .... now ... how to test this :P
15:25<TrueBrain>how to lag out a client .. eeuuuhhhh
15:25<LordAro>there are things you can do at the network level to simulate bad connections, iirc
15:25<TrueBrain>the "iirc" is a bit of an issue :D
15:26<TrueBrain>we all know it can be done
15:26<TrueBrain>just .. how again? :D
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>pull the ethernet cable?
15:26<LordAro>well, google it :p
15:26<TrueBrain>says he who didn't even google the cmake manual :P :P :P
15:26<TrueBrain>WE ARE ALL LAZY HERE :D
15:26<LordAro>i'd google it myself, but apparently my internet connection is unable to do more than 200Kbps right now
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>and google needs more than 200kbps?
15:27<frosch123>andythenorth: make a 10-hours version of ?
15:27<LordAro>TrueBrain: ^
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>what did we do back when we had 64kbps ISDN?
15:27<TrueBrain>you are way too kind LordAro
15:27<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: no, but youtube does
15:27<TrueBrain>don't indulge my laziness like that :P
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't open new browser tabs, because firefox tells me it needs a restart
15:29<_dp_>TrueBrain, I can send you a python client if that helps
15:29<TrueBrain>its weird to see OpenTTD run at exactly 33.33fps for 90% of the time ..
15:31<TrueBrain>well, a good thing I am testing this ... lol
15:31<TrueBrain>I got the weirdest error :P
15:31<TrueBrain>Client #2 is dropped because the client did not respond for more than 501 ticks
15:31<TrueBrain>at least that works
15:31<TrueBrain>but after that ... unrelated to my work, but ..:
15:31<TrueBrain>dbg: [net] 'Player' made an error and has been disconnected. Reason: 'general timeout'
15:32<TrueBrain> ‎*** Player has left the game (general timeout)
15:32<TrueBrain>‎*** Player has left the game (connection lost)
15:32<TrueBrain>I LEFT TWICE \o/
15:32<_dp_>yeah, errors come twice
15:32<frosch123>andythenorth: the most weird part of the video is that the creator spend so much time on it, but did not disable pbs-highlight and uses original acceleration
15:32<TrueBrain>_dp_: so why isn't there a report about that?
15:32<andythenorth>but hovercraft!
15:33<_dp_>TrueBrain, idk, guess everyone thinks that's normal :p
15:33<TrueBrain>how .....
15:33<_dp_>and I didn't bother to investigate
15:34<_dp_>there are worse errors somewhere there
15:34<TrueBrain>I was like: the game is still frozen, but no, I had animations off :D
15:34<TrueBrain>there are always "worse errors" somewhere
15:34<TrueBrain>that is no excuse for nobody to report it :P
15:36<TrueBrain>I also like that it counts down to 20 seconds, with: connection lost
15:36<TrueBrain>but then disconnects saying: you couldn't keep up with the server
15:36<TrueBrain>but .. you just .. wuth?
15:39<andythenorth>so company colours 3 and 4, would that be a big spec change?
15:46<+michi_cc>Outsourcing liveries to the player?
15:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge updated pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
15:53<andythenorth>michi_cc 'maybe' :)
15:53<andythenorth>4 would be quite a lot
15:53<andythenorth>of possibility
15:59<TrueBrain>how long has this "double quit message" already been in the game, damn
15:59<LordAro>today on "TB gets distracted"...
16:00<_dp_>at least that's not a CS bug :p
16:00<TrueBrain>somewhere between 11 and 17 years ago, it seems
16:03<frosch123>andythenorth: when you replaced animated pixels in ogfx, you edited generated files :)
16:05<andythenorth>oh that was clever
16:05<andythenorth>good use of time :)
16:07<frosch123>when compiling ogfx i get 19 modifies in the repository :(
16:07<frosch123>no idea which png files actually differ visually, and which are just encoded non-deterministically
16:07<TrueBrain>found it: :)
16:09<frosch123>aw, i was betting on truelight
16:10<andythenorth>is this the 'ogfx generates from gimp' thing?
16:10<TrueBrain>I was sure this was working when we merged the new networking
16:10<TrueBrain>I even checked that commit first :P
16:12<frosch123>andythenorth: never mind, you did not change those sprites
16:12<frosch123>the last change in that generated files is by ammler in 2012
16:12<frosch123>the commited files are good, freshly generated ones are animated
16:13<frosch123>so likely, it's the generation that is broken now
16:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8746: Fix bddfcaef: don't tell twice that a client left because of a timeout etc
16:14<TrueBrain>well, 1.11 fixes a 9 year old bug, w00p
16:15<frosch123>people complained when you fixed a 6 year old bug :p
16:16<TrueBrain>the drama this one will cause
16:16<andythenorth>you can stop at 'people complained'
16:18<andythenorth>does the generation generate into sprites/
16:22<frosch123>i don't think generated and source sprites are separated in any way :p
16:23<andythenorth>'mistakes were made'
16:23<andythenorth>we were young, etc
16:23<frosch123> <- the riverbank_arctic_show ones are broken by the generator
16:23<andythenorth>do I want to get involved in fixing that?
16:24<frosch123>also, i was not aware you drew 2x gui sprites
16:24<andythenorth>not really :)
16:24<andythenorth>I did?
16:24*andythenorth no recollection
16:24<frosch123>or someone else
16:24<frosch123>but it kind of suggests to me to draw the pencil and location buttons in 2x as well
16:24<andythenorth>perhaps not
16:25<frosch123> <- look, you did
16:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8747: Codechange: [Network] replace _realtime_tick with std::chrono
16:26<TrueBrain>this was what I was actually doing before I hit that weird rabbit hole :)
16:27<Xaroth>Is there a way in C++ to easily template out doing a double (nested) for-loop? I'm constantly repeating a for x/for y nested loop and it's making me wonder that surely there'd be an easier way for doing that
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16:28<Heiki> currently playing a track named “Autorail”, wonder whether that’s OpenTTD related
16:29<frosch123>Xaroth: put the loop body into a lambda
16:31<_dp_>TrueBrain, you should probably specify that it's 250 real life years
16:31<_dp_>coz my first thought was that it's not that much :p
16:31<frosch123>Xaroth: if you have c++20 you can also put a generator into the loop-iterator :p
16:31<TrueBrain>_dp_: lol .. I am talking about std::chrono :P
16:31<Xaroth>I think somebody will yell at me really loudly if I were to suggest moving openttd to c++20 :P
16:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8746: Fix bddfcaef: don't tell twice that a client left because of a timeout etc
16:32<frosch123>then do the lambda :) xaroth::for_each_2d(begin, end, [](foo bar){ stuff })
16:33<TrueBrain>I fixed it _dp_ :D
16:33<Xaroth>I'll keep that in mind, thanks frosch123
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>you could also do a 2d-iterator
16:33<_dp_>TrueBrain, xD
16:34<TrueBrain>I already quoted you twice in the other PR, sorry :P
16:34<TrueBrain>it is just funny :D
16:34<Xaroth>First I'll see if this actually works
16:36<andythenorth>supermop_Home can it have junctions?
16:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8219: Inexplicably low redraw rate on multiplayer server
16:44<TrueBrain>finally got the time to look at that, knowing a bit more what our gameloop etc does :D
16:44<TrueBrain>sorry for the delay FLHerne :P
16:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8738: Fix #8123: trams on half-tiles couldn't find depots
16:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8123: "Unable to find local depot" on dead-end tram tracks (regardless of location)
16:46<TrueBrain>lets see how many games ^^ breaks :P
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16:48<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: You got warnings on #8747
16:49<TrueBrain>hmm ... is count() not the same on all platforms, or all they all long long, I wonder ..
16:50<+michi_cc>I think the underlying base types of chrono is not completely fixed, it's all just "at least ...".
16:50<FLHerne>TrueBrain: I think it could be
16:50<_dp_>TrueBrain, have you seen this?
16:50<_dp_>it's not that close to 30ms
16:50<FLHerne>TrueBrain: "low FPS in bursts" would that be not-so-slow in between?
16:51<_dp_>and looks kinda weird in general that same game in mp is much slower
16:51<_dp_>well, not slower but laggier
16:51<TrueBrain>_dp_: he too, overshoots the 30ms by miles
16:51<FLHerne>I was experiencing 1-5fps with periodic 0fps, not normal-ish with periodic lagginess
16:52<TrueBrain>FLHerne: depends how far over the threshold you are, really
16:52<TrueBrain>I think if the game hits a constant: barely keeping up, but just not completely really
16:52<_dp_>TrueBrain, overshoots rendering but not gameloop if I read that correctly
16:52<TrueBrain>it is just a bit random hit and miss
16:52<TrueBrain>_dp_: yeah, combined they have 30ms
16:52<TrueBrain>in 1.10
16:53<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: A chrono duration in seconds is "duration</*signed integer type of at least 35 bits*/>" (
16:53<TrueBrain>michi_cc: right .. so I have to fix this slightly different :)
16:53<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Possibly, then. Certainly the "barely keeping up but not really" bit applies
16:53<_dp_>TrueBrain, ah, I guess better way to say it is that in sp it can slow simulation but in mp it has to slow renderinng
16:53<+michi_cc>Just casting to long long should work everywhere.
16:53<TrueBrain>FLHerne: it is an annoying place to be in .. as the server won't disconnect you
16:53<TrueBrain>but you won't enjoy the game
16:54<TrueBrain>_dp_: in multiplayer, the server forces you to keep up, as otherwise all clients have to slow down
16:54<FLHerne>But yeah, it was surprising to me that the effects are so different in MP to SP
16:54<FLHerne>I can see now why it makes sense
16:54<TrueBrain>it should be made more visible to the user, really
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16:55<FLHerne>(I also don't remember seeing it in versions before 1.10, but that may be more grfs on the server or something else unrelated)
16:55<TrueBrain>the issue is, the server can also lag behind
16:55<TrueBrain>so being < 33.33fps simulation rate is not enough reason
16:55<TrueBrain>FLHerne: yeah, this server seems to be really though on your client, looking at the numbers
16:56<TrueBrain>owh, the code calls it "quick frames" :P
16:56<FLHerne>TrueBrain: tough?
16:57<TrueBrain>tough, yes
16:57<TrueBrain>sorry, typing hard :)
16:57<FLHerne>Ok, just checking I parsed it right :p
16:57<FLHerne>That was a *really* slow laptop
16:57<TrueBrain>_dp_: the reddit link you gave was because the server was dreadfully slow
16:57<TrueBrain>that also killed performance in 1.10
16:58<TrueBrain>no longer in 1.11 :P
16:58<FLHerne>As in, my phone is about 3x faster in single-core perf
16:58<TrueBrain>hahaha :D
16:58<TrueBrain>lol, on reddit /u/reddit keeps sending me messages
16:58<TrueBrain>I keep reporting it as spam
16:58<TrueBrain>wtf, really ...
16:58<TrueBrain>owh, I can now block /u/reddit
16:58<TrueBrain>sure thing
16:59<LordAro>sending you messages?
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16:59<LordAro>what about?
16:59<_dp_>TrueBrain why do you think it was slow, just because TS said that? it seems to be doing 33 tps just fine on video
17:00<TrueBrain>LordAro: random groups to "check out"
17:00<TrueBrain>_dp_: I tend to believe topic starters, yes
17:00<LordAro>how odd
17:00<LordAro>never seen that before
17:00<TrueBrain>it surprises me too ... but I have blocked the user now :)
17:00<TrueBrain>so I should be good
17:02<_dp_>TrueBrain, it kinda have some conflicting evidence so I wouldn't trust it that much :p
17:02<TrueBrain>if upgrading the server with more memory which caused it to stop swapping solved the problem
17:02<TrueBrain>I tend to believe that was the issue ;)
17:02<_dp_>TrueBrain, my best guess is that they were just having all kinds of performance issues xD
17:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8747: Codechange: [Network] replace _realtime_tick with std::chrono
17:04<TrueBrain>FLHerne: I am a bit conflicted between: "keep the issue open as we should give better user feedback" and "close the issue as the behaviour is now explained" :)
17:04<TrueBrain>it is not something we can fix, only inform better about
17:05<TrueBrain>I think an error message like: you were N frames behind the server and we had to do catch-up
17:05<TrueBrain>might go a long way
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17:06<FLHerne>Problem is that then it would pop up every few seconds and make everything even less playable
17:06<FLHerne>But it's already unplayable, so at least it tells you...
17:06<FLHerne>I'd be happy with "close as explained"
17:07<_dp_>TrueBrain, too techical, I'd go for smth like "we sacrificed responsiveness to keep up with the server"
17:07<_dp_>and, yeah, need to somehow not spam it that much
17:08<_dp_>actually, a good wiki acticle on how to read fps numbers might be a solution ;)
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17:10<TrueBrain>FLHerne: given the few people that appear to have this problem, maybe not worth the time now, so yeah, maybe closing is better. Up to you really!
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17:10<TrueBrain>glx: how absolutely nice that we have 0 warnings on the CI now
17:10<TrueBrain>that is such a difference
17:12<TrueBrain>michi_cc: casting to (uint32) works too; so went for that :)
17:12<TrueBrain>lol, in c++14 you got "auto day = 24h"
17:12<TrueBrain>not sure .. I like that ... too much :P
17:13<frosch123>TrueBrain: it's way worse
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17:15<frosch123>"A plain integer is accepted if its meaning is unambiguous from the types of other operands: 2005y/4/5 is allowed, but 5/April/2005 is not."
17:16<frosch123>all americans should be banned from c++ commitee
17:16<FLHerne>TrueBrain: I'll write a comment and close it
17:17<TrueBrain>how is 5/April/2005 ambiguous, even for US?
17:17<TrueBrain>but wttttfffffff are they smoking
17:17<TrueBrain>with 2005y/4/5 ?
17:17<frosch123>operator/ is okay for std::filesystem::path, but for dates it's just wrong :)
17:18<TrueBrain>some things in c++11/14/17/20, I like
17:18<TrueBrain>but other things makes me want to leave C++ behind and never look back
17:18<TrueBrain>like you can write such horrible code now
17:18<TrueBrain>you already could
17:18<_dp_>wrong operators aren't anything new in c++
17:18<TrueBrain>but now you have MORE WAYS
17:18<frosch123>however, i cannot remember i ever needed a date constant in some source code
17:18<_dp_>guess >> << taught them nothing :p
17:20<_dp_>sometimes I want to rewrite citymania server patch in rust xD
17:21<_dp_>just to have less c++ to deal with
17:22<TrueBrain>2015y/1/1 returns a duration ... how is that useful? Lol
17:22<TrueBrain>not even a time_point
17:25<TrueBrain>no, wait, that makes sense, as it doesn't know the clock to bind to
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17:29<TrueBrain>okay, it is just horse-shit, such notations
17:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on issue #8219: Inexplicably low redraw rate on multiplayer server
17:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne closed issue #8219: Inexplicably low redraw rate on multiplayer server
17:30<frosch123>don't insult horses
17:30<TrueBrain>nice write-up FLHerne , tnx!
17:30<TrueBrain>frosch123: mea culpa
17:30<TrueBrain>right, sleepy time
17:30<FLHerne>I quite like the idea of simply disconnecting if there are too many "fast" frames
17:31<FLHerne>It's a desync, de facto -- the client can't actually keep up while staying responsive
17:32<TrueBrain>The assumption was that never really would happen, such cases
17:32<TrueBrain>But that did not include slow drawing
17:32<TrueBrain>So yeah, we should detect it and disconnect, I agree :)
17:33<FLHerne>Honestly, rereading mine it basically says the same as yours :p
17:33<_dp_>it all should be much better with recent rendering improvements
17:33<TrueBrain>(The detection code in place assumes drawing takes no time at all)
17:33<TrueBrain>Yeah, 1.11 should behave a lot better
17:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8219: Inexplicably low redraw rate on multiplayer server
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>today is one of those days where trying to make sense of the backlog is hopeless
17:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge updated pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
17:39<FLHerne>nielsm: That's the *really* short version, yes :p
17:40<FLHerne>nielsm: The surprising bit is that "too slow" has completely different effects in multiplayer
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17:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on issue #8219: Inexplicably low redraw rate on multiplayer server
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17:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge updated pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
17:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge commented on pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
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18:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge requested changes for pull request #22: Shorten some description texts
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 25 18:12:18 2021
---Logopened Thu Feb 25 18:12:23 2021
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18:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 commented on pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
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18:57<Xaroth>INFO:root:Receiving map chunk 2 (32*32) for map (64*64) ... well.. seems something is working
18:58<Xaroth>just not everything yet
19:00<Xaroth>just need to figure out when to exactly sync the copy of the tile map so it doesn't spaz out.
19:04<Xaroth>also figure out why it's constantly seeing type changes on every chunk of the map on bigger maps
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19:09<_dp_>hm, server regularly checks this->HasClientQuit() but does it ever set it?
19:12<Xaroth>hm, frequently changes between MP_TREES and MP_CLEAR
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19:13<Xaroth>guess we should ignore that
19:13<_dp_>Xaroth, yeah, that sounds normal with tree growth
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19:26<Xaroth>heh, there's also a switch between MP_WATER and MP_TREES
19:27<Xaroth>dbg: [map] [UpdateShadowTile] Tile type changed: 8627 6 4
19:27<Xaroth>dbg: [map] [UpdateShadowTile] Tile type changed: 8627 4 6
19:27<Xaroth>water to trees, trees back to water
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19:28<Xaroth>or rather, other way around
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19:29<_dp_>that's probably shore tiles
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20:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 updated pull request #22: Shorten some description texts
20:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #22: Shorten some description texts
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20:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on pull request #19: Replace Mercurial code with Git code
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23:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] Andrew350 commented on pull request #173: Fix: Access to persistent storage of towns
---Logclosed Fri Feb 26 00:00:55 2021