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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-04-08

---Logopened Thu Apr 08 00:00:50 2021
---Daychanged Thu Apr 08 2021
00:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
00:08<TheArcaneBrony>is it jsut me or is this font extremely small?
00:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8971: "Save Game" text input can visibly appear truncated when font size increases
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01:10<Elouin>Hi, is there a way to slow down game progression speed? I would like to have games running that run a bit slower and last a week or so.
01:12<riis>i think jgrs patch pack has something like that, may be mistaken as i dont use it
01:21<didac>I agree that the music stuff doesn´t seem proportiona to interface size
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01:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RiseOfDeath commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup
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01:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup
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02:28<andythenorth>so did we stay up too late?
02:34*andythenorth interprets silences as 'yes'
02:34<nielsm>I think I went to bed at an acceptable time, but did not sleep well
02:34<nielsm>woke up too early and don't feel rested
03:01*andythenorth needs more clothes, cold here
03:02<nielsm> <-- can we just close this as "yes stop changing GUI sizes while other windows are open and expect everything to work"
03:02<nielsm>or should we start just closing all open windows when you change one of those?
03:03<nielsm>(probably special casing the options window, main menu, toolbar, statusbar, and main game viewport)
03:03<andythenorth>well if we had a way to remember windows and reopen them...
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03:08<andythenorth>hmm fingers too cold to type :)
03:08<andythenorth>it's only April, so wtf :)
03:08<nielsm>could also add it to known-bugs.txt
03:10<andythenorth>along with "FIRS breaks default vehicles" :)
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03:18<LordAro>nielsm: true, but redrawing the text string after resizing the window should be feasible...
03:23<nielsm>more problematic, it seems possibly a crash can occur when you change font size due to something with sprite cache
03:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RiseOfDeath commented on issue #8967: Game crash during startup
03:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup
03:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8969: Game Crash on Startup
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03:38<canadaj>I am running a Linux server using the -c option to specify a config file. Every time I modify the config and restart the service (systemd), it overwrites my changes. How do I get my server to accept a new config?
03:38<TrueBrain>I see andythenorth learnt to be passive agressive :D
03:38<andythenorth>it's just aggressive no?
03:38<nielsm>canadaj: there is an -x option that prevents the game from writing back tot he config
03:39*andythenorth always has to look up what 'passive aggressive' actually means
03:39<LordAro>i'm wondering if these crashes are down to a broken opengl setup
03:40<TrueBrain>it does look like bootstrap doesn't validate if there is a valid video driver :P
03:40<TrueBrain>but that only explains 1 of the 2
03:41<canadaj>@neilsm absolutely blessed thank you
03:41<@peter1138>Gah, cold fingers
03:42<@peter1138>nielsm, i do actually have a patch for scaling...
03:42<andythenorth>why are my fingers cold though
03:42<andythenorth>heating is on
03:42<andythenorth>wearing many layers of clothers
03:42<@peter1138>Poor circulation
03:42<andythenorth>clothers ! warmer than clothes
03:43<TrueBrain>more sleep also helps
03:43<andythenorth>screw sleep, it's for dead people
03:43<TrueBrain>psst, dead people don't "sleep"
03:43<andythenorth>I will live life to the fullest by....hitting refresh on YouTube
03:43<andythenorth>until late at night
03:44<TrueBrain>and regretting that in the morning?
03:44<TrueBrain>why are you using a proprietary platform to watch videos?
03:44<andythenorth>I have no words
03:44<@peter1138>Must ignore messages on Teams...
03:44<andythenorth>Must ignore Teams
03:45<andythenorth>My lovely wife, light of my life, late into the night: "Why do they keep messaging me so late? [replies with message]"
03:46<@peter1138>apparently "fill in this field if different from field above" is too confusing
03:46<andythenorth>this was extremely unexpected
03:46<@peter1138>I didn't ignore Teams :(
03:48<@peter1138>How does that even... they magically pop out... :/
03:48<nielsm>the actual problem is that Windows::ReInit() does not actually re-init the window
03:49<nielsm>it kind of assumes most things don't need to change size or position
03:49<@peter1138>Like I say, I have a patch :p
03:49<nielsm>and the class is called Window
03:50<nielsm>does it also fix that the landscape selection buttons on the main menu look bad after changing GUI scale?
03:50<nielsm>well what are you waiting for then
03:50<@peter1138>Still working on it.
03:50<TrueBrain>name any issue, and peter1138 has a patch for it .. patches he has plenty :D
03:51<@peter1138>This one is recent though :)
03:57<andythenorth>I had a patch once
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03:59<@peter1138>Highly advanced patch, streaming on Discord
04:00<@peter1138>Oh, 9am. Never mind.
04:01<TrueBrain>you now expect nielsm to look on your Discord stream to type over your patch? :P
04:02<@peter1138>Collaborative development
04:02<TrueBrain>wuth?! NO!
04:02<TrueBrain>we don't do that here peter1138
04:02<TrueBrain>sorry, it is one of these days
04:02<TrueBrain>I started with a passive aggressive forums post of andythenorth .. I cannot shake that feeling now :)
04:03<andythenorth>I started with an LC post about Horse
04:03<@peter1138>Actually there is some collaborative plugin for VS Code. I wonder what it actually does.
04:03<andythenorth>'probably fine, everyone misunderstands each other'
04:03<@peter1138>forums post eh?
04:03<@peter1138>Dare I look?
04:03<andythenorth>it's a nothing
04:03<TrueBrain>peter1138: they work really well, just ... writing code with someone else has always been painful to me :P
04:03<andythenorth>this is fun :)
04:04<TrueBrain>had to train a lot of people with pair programming
04:04<andythenorth>if anyone knows the answer, pls send me email
04:04<TrueBrain>which is fine on its own
04:04<TrueBrain>but ... you get bored REAL quick, looking at someone else typing :P
04:04<@peter1138>Is that what it actually is? Sheesh
04:04<andythenorth>my attention span would never survive pair programming, it needs people who aren't me
04:05<@peter1138>What open streaming platforms are there, anyway?
04:05<LordAro>i only know of jitsi, but that's a conferencing/video call thing, not streaming
04:06<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I replied!
04:06<LordAro>and doesn't scale well
04:06<andythenorth>TrueBrain nooooooo :(
04:06<@peter1138>Yes, that's video calling.
04:06<@peter1138>And sucks all the power out of my 3.2 GHz Quad Core Xeon handling 2 streams...
04:07<@peter1138>(I guess it may have been transcoding but I don't know why)
04:07<andythenorth>oof these freedom + privacy people
04:08<andythenorth>I mean...I don't like the modern web business model much
04:08<andythenorth>but don't they know...the simulation we're living in already tracks everything about us anyway
04:08<andythenorth>I suppose they're trying to stay ahead of the other simulated characters
04:08<@peter1138>nielsm, anyway, may patch has unintentional side effects that, er, actually improve things imho, but may not be expected. And other bits still don't work right.
04:09<@peter1138>(Improves things outside the scope of changing scale)
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04:10<andythenorth>also this is one of the best short stories I've read ever ever
04:16<TrueBrain>the network code has Close and CloseConnection .. and poorly documented how they differ
04:17<TrueBrain>fun :D
04:18<TrueBrain>Close calls CloseConnection, but Close is protected and CloseConnection is public
04:18<TrueBrain>now I am really confused :P
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04:29<Timberwolf>peter1138: One of the AIs in my game decided to convert its narrow gauge rails to 4th rail, happily stranding all its trains.
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04:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] adamcirillo commented on issue #8963: Black Bars during gameplay
04:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] Vagooba opened issue #187: [nb_NO] Translator access request
04:45<@peter1138>Vsync = black bars... very strange.
04:46<FLHerne>They're not even regular, across scan-lines or anything...
04:46<FLHerne>Nor even solid black
04:46<@peter1138>Timberwolf, I don't remember if there's anything in the railtype spec or AI APIs for helping to choose which to use
04:48<Timberwolf>A lot of the AIs seem to bias heavily to buying the cheapest engine, which gives weird results if you have a set full of jokers and strange options.
04:48<Timberwolf>I've noticed a few figure out that giant horse stacks are the way forward at the start of the game.
04:49<FLHerne>ISTR that UKRS2 removed the brake-van restriction for AI players
04:49<FLHerne>otherwise they just couldn't work without special code
04:49<Timberwolf>Yes, and then CivilAI builds them :)
04:50<andythenorth>"CivilAI the best AI"
04:50<andythenorth>only one I use anyway
04:50<Timberwolf>RailwAI is really impressive, bar a couple of crashes in later play.
04:50<andythenorth>not sure that means 'best'
04:51<Timberwolf>I particularly like the way it petulantly reroutes its roads and builds bridges whenever you create a level crossing.
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04:52*andythenorth tries RailwAI
04:53<LordAro>trAIns has always been the most technically impressive, to me
04:53<andythenorth>oh it's building a salt line
04:53<LordAro>but it is real slow
04:53<andythenorth>wonder how it knows where to start in Steeltown
04:53<andythenorth>Salt is one of the starting chains
04:53<andythenorth>it's chosen narrow gauge
04:53<andythenorth>oh it builds alternate wagons, not just cloning trains blindly
04:56<andythenorth>I like AIs, they don't offer unsolicited feedback on my grfs :)
04:56<Timberwolf>I haven't played trAINs in a while, I remember it looking promising in the early versions.
04:56<Timberwolf>That's the one which tries to network like a human player, isn't it?
04:57<LordAro>some guy's masters project
04:57<andythenorth>RailwAI likes boats
04:58<andythenorth>hmm doesn't understand freight engines vs. express
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04:59<andythenorth>this is fun
04:59<andythenorth>AI has no concept of mainlines
04:59<andythenorth>so it's replicating routes for an industry with 2 output cargos
05:00<@peter1138>That's how some people play
05:00<andythenorth>very wise
05:00<andythenorth>the best way
05:01<andythenorth>supplies it doesn't understand, maybe I should deliver some for it
05:03<andythenorth>it has won Train Whack! though :)
05:03<andythenorth>excellent use of engines there
05:04<andythenorth>this is also excellent, train choices for same route
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05:04<andythenorth>AI likes pointy trains?
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05:06<TrueBrain>I have another idea for NAT punching .. make a raw socket and send raw TCP packets ourselves, so we can avoid sending the FIN and RST :P
05:06<TrueBrain>that might just be a bit .... too much :D
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05:08<@peter1138>user-space TCP eh?
05:08<TrueBrain>won't be the first time I do that :D
05:08<@peter1138>Might as well just switch to UDP :-)
05:08<TrueBrain>but yes, that
05:09<TrueBrain>we really should switch to UDP honestly
05:09<nielsm>I don't think most OS will allow that either, without being root/admin
05:09<TrueBrain>makes a lot of things a lot easier
05:09<TrueBrain>nielsm: you might be surprised how much you can do (on Linux anyway) from userspace
05:09<TrueBrain>there are some limits
05:09<@peter1138>Packet loss and out of order packets is not something the protocol would like, I think.
05:09<TrueBrain>but really: UDP :)
05:10<TrueBrain>well, there is this ValveSoftware network library
05:10<TrueBrain>that uses UDP with a TCP-like behaviour
05:10<TrueBrain>reordering, fragmentation, handles it all
05:10<@peter1138>Is it GPL?
05:10<nielsm>MIT I think
05:10<@peter1138>GPL-compatible, rather.
05:10<TrueBrain>so we can include it
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05:11<FLHerne>But then you're Making The Game Dependent On Steam or something :-/
05:11<TrueBrain>please don't tell those people zstd is created by Facebook
05:11<TrueBrain>it might be stealing our data (?!?!?!)
05:12<andythenorth>it what now?
05:12<andythenorth>also where is the forum reply
05:12*andythenorth back to making trains
05:12<FLHerne>Between that and GitHub/MS, OpenTTD is enslaved to all of the evil megacorps
05:12<TrueBrain>I know right!!
05:12<TrueBrain>and we also use AWS
05:12<TrueBrain>where does Google impact us .. euuh ...
05:13<TrueBrain>there has to be a link
05:13<TrueBrain>let me find it :D
05:13<FLHerne>Does the forum still have Google ads?
05:13<@peter1138>proprietory platforms :(
05:14<andythenorth>we tried to use google for wiki search
05:14<TrueBrain>its funny how some people and organizations expect that everything should be free (as defined by FSF)
05:14<TrueBrain>like how realistic is that in a world where you have to pay for your groceries
05:14<andythenorth>or 'unrealistic lunatics'
05:14<andythenorth>as I call them
05:14<TrueBrain>I am sure I also once had the illusion that would be possible
05:15<TrueBrain>then I grew up :P
05:15<andythenorth>it's a view
05:15<LordAro>it's cute
05:15<LordAro>being that idealistic/optimistic about the world
05:15<FLHerne>Well, people used to have that opinion of software
05:15<andythenorth>a tycoon game about cut-throat capitalism should be free
05:15<andythenorth>I guess that's fine
05:15<TrueBrain>LordAro: cute is the right word, yes :)
05:15<andythenorth>I mean I play Warcraft 1, but I don't believe in slaughtering villages
05:17<TrueBrain>anyway, back to writing lobby code
05:19*andythenorth back to trains
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05:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
05:40<@peter1138>How slow is slow?
05:41<andythenorth>this one goes to 11
05:41<@peter1138>I'm down to 6.5 fps and don't appear to have this.
05:43<andythenorth>oh it has now scrapped that train, disappointing
05:45<nielsm>peter1138: I'm not sure, but it has to do with timing I think, and a low framerate only makes it more likely to hit the right timing
05:45<Timberwolf>andythenorth: Are they relatively cheap in respect to tractive effort and horsepower?
05:45<andythenorth>probably yes
05:46<nielsm>I can reproduce it just by starting 1.11.0, place my fingers on home row, and mash keys as fast as I can
05:46<Timberwolf>I think RailwAI just looks for the most cost-effective way to achieve a certain TE and HP target for a given speed.
05:46<andythenorth>hmm the maths would say they're not great for HP and TE over cost
05:46<andythenorth>oh they're cheap to buy
05:46<andythenorth>very cheap
05:47<TrueBrain>nielsm: you might want to add what OS etc in your ticket btw; I assume Win10, but that is an assumption :D
05:47<TrueBrain>and you say "Win32 video driver", do you mean win32 or win32-opengl ?
05:47<andythenorth>oh the silent 1.11 crash on mac :)
05:48<andythenorth>well that will be fixed soon eh
05:48<TrueBrain>Win10 + Steam OpenTTD + win32-opengl works fine for me at least, no matter how hard I type :P
05:49<TrueBrain>win32, still fine
05:50<nielsm>also reproducing with win32 non-opengl
05:52<+glx>TrueBrain: C:\Users\Loïc> vcpkg search gamenetworkingsocket
05:52<+glx>gamenetworkingsoc... 2020-09-02 GameNetworkingSockets is a basic transport layer for games.
05:52<TrueBrain>glx: nice :D
05:54<+glx>same here, can't reproduce duplicate input, even at 3fps
05:55<LordAro>nielsm: something strange with the polling rate of your keyboard, perhaps?
05:56<nielsm>ohhh I figured it out
05:56<nielsm>it's the Japanese IME
05:56<nielsm>if I change to a different input it doesn't happen
05:57<nielsm>other programs don't get this misinput from the IME either though
05:58<LordAro>#7810 & #8138 appear in searches for IME
05:58<LordAro>plausibly related?
05:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8930: Duplicate text input under slow framerates
05:59<nielsm>8138 could be, but 7810 seems to be about non-Windows platforms
05:59<nielsm>the keyboard input is handled in video driver so it's probably a problem specific to win32_v
06:10<@peter1138>Bread roll out of freezer is... not edible.
06:10<@peter1138>I'm on Windows too.
06:10<+glx>and very cold ;)
06:10<TrueBrain>freshly baked bread with the right mixture of ingredients on the other hand ..
06:10<TrueBrain>took a while to get the mixture right .. lot of wasted bread :P
06:11<@peter1138>glx, actually it wasn't that cold, which is telling. I think it means not a lot of water content left in it...
06:11<@peter1138>TrueBrain, okay, I'll be around in a moment.
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06:11<TrueBrain>peter1138: would be scary if you really did :P
06:11<@peter1138>Ah shit, foiled by Brexit and pandemic :(
06:11<TrueBrain>both are an equally big problem, yes :P
06:11<TrueBrain>which is kinda ironic
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06:25<@peter1138>Hmm, Karoo 2 looks nice but damn, expensive.
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06:26<@peter1138>Although I'm not sure running on Android is ideal for a specialized device.
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06:36<Timberwolf>Some of the non-Android systems have the same kind of multitasking issues.
06:37<Timberwolf>My car gets very laggy in responding to the menu controller if I plug a USB drive with a lot of music files into the centre console.
06:37*andythenorth reading steam
06:37<andythenorth>lol the cursor key behaviour in newgrf window :)
06:38<andythenorth>'yes you can scroll the list on up/down cursors'
06:38<andythenorth>'but you probably also wanted to move the map at the same time, right?'
06:38<Timberwolf>I get that with station filters.
06:39<Timberwolf>I have typed 'aaaaaaaa' or 'rrrrrr' into the station search many a time.
06:40<andythenorth>hmm what am I supposed to be doing?
06:40<andythenorth>something about pax coaches
06:40*andythenorth lost all sense of purpose
06:53<@peter1138>Okay, should I order some lunch via Just-Eat?
06:53<@peter1138>Apparently I can order from Greggs.
06:54<@peter1138>But if I'm going to order, I might as well order from the local brewery, am I right?
06:54<@peter1138>Liquid lunches...
06:54<andythenorth>delivered Greggs
06:54<andythenorth>peak civilisation
06:54<@peter1138>I don't like Greggs at the best of times, let alone soggy greasy cold deliveries.
06:55<@peter1138>Footlong Subway?
06:56<reldred>I've had dinner already but I'm still hungry
06:56<@peter1138>I have some part-baked petite-pains, I think that should suffice :)
07:00<@peter1138>Dessert time?
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07:04<reldred>Mmmm. Desserts.
07:04<reldred>Cheeseburger is a dessert?
07:06<LordAro>there's probably enough sugar in it
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07:13<@peter1138>Okay, I found some bacon to go with my petit pains.
07:14<@peter1138>There is one egg as well, but as it's BBE early March, I might give that a miss.
07:15<@peter1138>I'd completely forgotten the days of requesting cashback from shops.
07:26<andythenorth>eggs float if they've gone wrong
07:27<andythenorth>otherwise fine
07:27<TrueBrain>or hatch a chicken
07:27<TrueBrain>then it went wrong too
07:27<andythenorth>hmm PassengerRailcarTrailerCarConsist and PassengerRailbusTrailerCarConsist
07:27<andythenorth>that's not going to catch me out in future
07:27<andythenorth>they are visually same length names
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07:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another
07:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another
07:49<@peter1138>andythenorth, I know, but depending on what you're doing with it a fresh egg can be preferable.
07:50<@peter1138>Worst part is when you think an egg is okay, test it by the floating method, and then it's gone off anyway. Into the bowl of ingredients you've already mixed up.
07:50<@peter1138>Only had that happen once, since then I always crack it into a separate jug first.
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07:51<@peter1138>I was doing egg-fried-rice. Has to bin all the rice, and the bacon bits and stuff that was in it. And it was the last rice I had.
07:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8574: Feature: Ships yield when passing through one another
07:52<Xaroth>peter1138: the uncle roger style egg fry rice?
08:18<andythenorth>ha I need to remember to close openttd train windows when the game is paused and in background
08:19<andythenorth>uses 100% of one core
08:20<andythenorth>or it's coincidence
08:32<@peter1138>I don't have an Uncle Roger, so...
08:32<@peter1138>100% while paused seems like you're doing something wrong.
08:34<andythenorth>I _think_ it causes the mac to have keep drawing the window
08:34<andythenorth>openttd is running at about 1.5% of a core
08:34<@peter1138>Even a 1024x1024 map is too big, why do people ever want to play on 4069x4069. "Bigger is better"?
08:34<andythenorth>but if I open some game windows (trains), mac windowserver process spikes to 100% of a core
08:35<Timberwolf>Originally I thought it was to play with very sparse maps (extreme low density) or interesting geography like islands or impenetrable mountain ranges.
08:35<@peter1138>If the game is paused then there's no reason it'll be trying to redraw by itself.
08:36<Timberwolf>But my impression is I'm the outlier there, and most people seem to generate their 4096*4096 maps at fairly standard density and terrain settings.
08:36<@peter1138>I was going for sparse with this 1024x1024 map, but it's still got too much in it.
08:36<andythenorth>this paused effect is actually reproducible, I hoped I was hallucinating
08:36<andythenorth>or that it was just Chrome doing whatever Chrome does to use all my cores to render a simple webpage
08:37<@peter1138>Another problem with 1024x1024 sparse maps and using all-Timberwolf sets, there's no ships ;(
08:37<andythenorth>there are no dirty blocks drawn, can't be OpenTTD
08:37<andythenorth>let's blame Chrome
08:38<@peter1138>Yes. Let's.
08:38<andythenorth>remember when Chrome was good?
08:38<Timberwolf>Heh. I do wonder whether I should do boats.
08:38<@peter1138>When it first arrived, yes.
08:38<andythenorth>please do boats
08:38<andythenorth>if anything demands voxels, it's boats
08:38<Timberwolf>It feels like the kind of thankless drudgery I'd enjoy.
08:38<andythenorth>they're so frigging hard to do in pixels
08:39<andythenorth>I have spent so long drawing bow and stern shapes :(
08:39<@peter1138>Just take someone else's GPL ships, do a little tweak and say it's yours.
08:39<andythenorth>voxel-ise Unsinkable Sam
08:40<@peter1138>So the thing with 2x gui is that 2x sprites != 2x gui.
08:40<andythenorth>or you could have 3 goes at figuring out capacity and speed and crap like I did :P
08:40<@peter1138>Proportions become all wonky.
08:40<@peter1138>What was it? Cubicles?
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08:40<Timberwolf>I haven't tried Sam yet, what did you change from SQUID?
08:40<andythenorth>threw it all away
08:40<Timberwolf>(capacity and speed wise)
08:40<supermop_Home_>4 letters
08:40<andythenorth>can't remember but Squid is just weird
08:41<andythenorth>it fell in the "Pikka is bored of maximalism, let's try minimalism" hole
08:41<Timberwolf>I like Squid, it makes ships unexpectedly powerful.
08:42<andythenorth>Sam treats ships like Horse wagons
08:42<andythenorth>gives a full set of sizes and types
08:42<andythenorth>buy menu can go do one :P
08:42<Timberwolf>First discovered this playing a multiplayer game with a relative newbie, who went "I'll build some ships, they look simple" and ended up one of the most profitable companies on the server.
08:43<andythenorth>oh I standardised all the hulls as well, and composited the deck/hold stuff onto them
08:43<andythenorth>there are more than those 5, but those are the ones with all angles drawn
08:44<andythenorth>but voxel hull shapes!
08:45<Timberwolf>They're just as annoying to do as pixels, although you do have options to scale and composite.
08:46<andythenorth>no angles though? just one model?
08:46<Timberwolf>Yes, that helps.
08:46<Timberwolf>You only have to get it right once.
08:46<@peter1138>Hmm, that explains a few things, TTD didn't move button images by +1+1 pixels when they are pressed...
08:47<andythenorth>which looks better?
08:48<Timberwolf>You forget how little TTD actually had.
08:48<Timberwolf>I fired it up the other day for something and was like, "wait, Clone Vehicle is something we introduced?"
08:50<Timberwolf>I think that's one of those Sawyerisms though, I get the feeling he considers the need to micromanage replacement, cloning and upgrading vehicles to be part of the game.
08:51<@peter1138>It is
08:51<@peter1138>Same with convert track, mentioned in the livestream.
08:52<Timberwolf>Cht: railtype 0 2
08:52<Timberwolf>Or whatever it was.
08:52<@peter1138>Let's add options to turn off these things!
08:52<@peter1138>Is there still the option to turn off building on slopes?
08:52<@peter1138>I never really played TTDPatch.
08:53<@peter1138>Only ever loaded it to compare how NewStations behaved, during my many rewrites.
08:53<Timberwolf>There's the livestream holy grail, Chris Sawyer to explain what he does and doesn't like about the gameplay changes, followed by Simon Foster critiquing newgrfs and OpenGFX. :)
08:55<@peter1138>I think it best not to go there.
08:56<reldred>From what I heard Chris Sawyer *hated* TTDPatch.
08:56<reldred>Very oldschool kinda guy. A lot of people didn't like the modding scene back in the day.
08:57<Timberwolf>I recall hearing something along the lines of, "a game as released represents a particular team's vision, and it's not for other people to go and reinterpret that vision in a way the original team never intended"
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that might have been their opinion, but that was never how it worked.
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>art is generally in a bad shape if it's treated as "this is final, and never to be modified/reinterpreted/whatever again"
09:00<reldred>Yeah, he was apparently a bit of an odd cat
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>i won't judge that, since it's all hearsay
09:01<LordAro>there's never been a definitive statement, afaik
09:01<LordAro>just summaries of spokespeople's statements
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>also, pretty much everyone in here is an "odd cat" :)
09:05<Timberwolf>I think some of it is rumours in the absence of lots of public statements, newsgroup posts, social media and whatever.
09:06<Timberwolf>The few interviews and videos that have emerged over the years don't make him come across as particularly odd, within the bounds of "old school 1980s assembly developer"
09:12<andythenorth>the video showing the prototype TTO is good
09:13<andythenorth>reminds me of me somewhat
09:13<andythenorth>I have no rollercoaster obsession
09:16<andythenorth>meh can't find the video
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>Timberwolf: exactly
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09:34<@peter1138>Hmm, so padding is always external to the widget. Internal padding might be useful to have.
09:34<andythenorth>goes it hide block signals from Steam client?
09:35<@peter1138>Hide teaching people to learn block/pre-signals first because... why would you do that?
09:35<andythenorth>also why do people tell so many lies on the internet?
09:35<andythenorth>shocking :)
09:35<andythenorth>this lie about distance
09:36<andythenorth>what DP's graphs show is that you have to be playing a very big map for that to be true
09:36<andythenorth>there is some thing about overhead on loading times
09:36<@peter1138>What are they not promising?>
09:36<andythenorth>I don't know
09:37<@peter1138>Doesn't everyone play on 4069x4096 because why not?
09:37<andythenorth>for shame
09:37<andythenorth>I use 32x32 only
09:37<@peter1138>Such gatekeeping by me here.
09:37<andythenorth>can we make a 1 tile map?
09:37<@peter1138>Yes, but it's a void tile.
09:38<@peter1138>Go back to basics. Your map is 256x256 and you have no choice in the matter.
09:38<andythenorth>was original 256?
09:39<LordAro>with coast edges
09:39<@peter1138>Or was it 255.
09:39<@peter1138>I think we have void tiles on all sides now, so a map is actually -2
09:40<LordAro>there's some weird difference if you have the coast edges on
09:40<LordAro>like the top edges aren't void, but sea
09:40<andythenorth>Horse 100%
09:41<andythenorth>so I should release it or something?
09:41<andythenorth>oh a bit of yak-shaving first
09:41<LordAro>paint the yak blue
09:41<@peter1138>I'm not sure that difference is there any more.
09:41<@peter1138>If it is, it shouldn't be.
09:41<@peter1138>I remember there were some... interesting interactions that changed depending on that settings.
09:42<@peter1138>Of course, old maps...
09:43<LordAro>i think that was the problem
09:43<LordAro>old maps are 255, new maps are 254
09:43<LordAro>or something
09:43<LordAro>255, but with 253 usable*
09:44<andythenorth>3CC yak
09:44<andythenorth>3rd company colour when? :)
09:44<andythenorth>'not now andythenorth that's when'
09:44<Timberwolf>Since tiles are the true economic unit, has the game been made easier or harder?
09:44<andythenorth>be good though wouldn't it, 3CC
09:44<andythenorth>or just wagon colours
09:44<@peter1138>Imagine choosing 3 different colours and it make barely a difference.
09:44<andythenorth>pink, cream, red
09:45<andythenorth>blue, dark blue, light blue
09:45<andythenorth>or if we had 'livery' sprite choosing crap for the realism crowd, I could abuse that for wagon colours
09:45<andythenorth>or I could use cargo subtypes
09:45<andythenorth>it's the fashionable solution
09:45<andythenorth>Steel (Light Blue)
09:45<@peter1138>1 engine-id per livery
09:46<andythenorth>Cows (Green)
09:46<andythenorth>peter1138 ^^ I tried that
09:46<andythenorth>Horse branch for it
09:46<andythenorth>it caused some seriously out of proportion reaction on Discord
09:46<andythenorth>also looks weird, having repeated vehicle names
09:47<andythenorth>'tried that in newgrf' might be my version of 'got a patch for that'
09:50<andythenorth>all the liveries I drew :D
09:50<andythenorth>but you get a choice of 2, by setting weird company colour combos
09:52<dihedral>hey hey
09:56<@peter1138>I forgot you could show station coverage for a town.
09:58<@peter1138> < forgot about that work, too.
09:58<@peter1138>Multithreaded tick handler when?
09:59<@peter1138>I don't think it's all that common for games to have such a spread between vehicle types.
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10:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DonaldDuck313 opened issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel
10:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8972: I can't build tram tracks in an existing road tunnel without demolishing the tunnel
10:16<@peter1138>Urgh, why am I so tired
10:16<andythenorth>long covid
10:16<andythenorth>lack of coffee
10:16<andythenorth>lack of sleep
10:17<andythenorth>lack of amphetamine sulphate
10:17<andythenorth>all of the above?
10:17*andythenorth "does not encourage drug use"
10:18<reldred>I do!
10:18<@peter1138>Lack of sleep and exercise I think.
10:19<@peter1138>I wouldn't know where to get amphetamine.
10:19<@peter1138>Is it from an amphitheatre?
10:19<andythenorth>well if you do find any, stay socially distanced when collecting
10:20<andythenorth>meanwhile my trains with restaurant cars....make money
10:20<andythenorth>so do the ones....without restaurant cars
10:20<andythenorth>go figure
10:20<@peter1138>Ship it.
10:20<andythenorth>should I do another half-day play-testing of tedious fake routes?
10:20<andythenorth>guess how much that appeals?
10:20<@peter1138>No, publish it and let your players do that.
10:20<FLHerne>let other people do the playtesting, then sort by complaints
10:21<andythenorth>I just do a bit more adding buy menu text
10:21<@peter1138>Sa.. can up with with some tideous graphs and results that don't mean anything.
10:21<andythenorth>the 'if' statements for Horse buy menu are already lolz
10:21<andythenorth>let's add to that
10:21<andythenorth>maybe they'll implode
10:22<@peter1138>I might've had covid over xmas but I had two negative tests. But then the tests could easily be wrong...
10:22<FLHerne>Yeah, you haven't caught up with CETS until it literally causes NMLC to crash through sheer size
10:22<@peter1138>So maybe it is long-covid.
10:22<@peter1138>Long-laziness more like.
10:23<@peter1138>Piss of Nest, I didn't ask for you to turn the heating off.
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10:35<@peter1138>I also think I'm going a bit doolally. Making errors in sentences and not noticing until later.
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10:41<andythenorth>I've been doing that for....years
10:41<andythenorth>I look at old stuff I wrote, it's garbage
10:43<andythenorth>so redstone for OpenTTD then?
10:43<andythenorth>LED counters
10:43<andythenorth>industry shenanigans
10:45<@peter1138>I wanted to at one point but realised that it's already there in JGR so why.
10:48<andythenorth>fair point
10:57<andythenorth>goes it "Role: foo" text for all Horse vehicles?
10:57<andythenorth>was just engines
10:57<andythenorth>now coaches
10:57<andythenorth>soon wagons?
10:58<andythenorth>"Role: freight" seemed redundant TBH
10:58<andythenorth>but now it seems inconsistent to not have it
10:58<@peter1138>Role: Swiss
11:00<@peter1138>Four whole pee ems and I've barely done anything. FS.
11:06<andythenorth>Role: Cheese
11:07<andythenorth>lol testing pax train profitability
11:07<andythenorth>in a cdist game
11:07<andythenorth>is silly andythenorth
11:12<andythenorth>well I spent 3 days redoing this
11:12<andythenorth>but it's about the same or worse :)
11:19<Wolf01>Bad back pain again :(
11:19<andythenorth>so I am trying to get cargo aging period to do something
11:19<Wolf01>I hope from monday I'll get better with the medication
11:20<andythenorth>what does cargo aging do again? :P
11:20*andythenorth looks it up
11:20<Wolf01>Complicates stuff
11:21<andythenorth>a tick is 2.5 days?
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11:36<andythenorth>goes it set very aggressive payment decay on FIRS pax?
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11:48<supermop_Home_>Wolf01 did you get vaccine?
11:49<Wolf01>Not yet
11:50<supermop_Home_>there has been some evidence here that some of the vaccines help clear up long-lingering symptoms in people who have long-lasting residual covid symptoms
11:50<supermop_Home_>hopefully you can get it soon!
11:50<supermop_Home_>my vaccine made me feel car sick for about a day though
11:53<Wolf01>Not covid related, but covid may have helped to get worse, slipped discs and compressed nerves, that's because I sit down too much and didn't do enough physical activity
11:53<Wolf01>Now I can't sit down at all :)
11:57<_dp_>hi, is there any estimate on 1.11.1?
11:57<Wolf01>Hmmmm interesting number
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12:01<riis>is there a way to print console logs to a file on windows?
12:02<riis>on the subreddit someone discussed a way to do it on linux, i have no idea if it works
12:04<Wolf01>I think it's just standard output, you shoud be able to launch it with > yourfile.txt and get what you wna
12:06<riis>do i still need to convert ottd to a console app?
12:06<riis>the command i came across is openttd -d 1 >> .logfile.log 2>&1
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12:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere opened issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start
12:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere commented on issue #8973: Wrong language loaded on first game start
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12:20<Wolf01> andythenorth forget flash, make games with css :D:D:D:D
12:28<andythenorth>so I need some numbers
12:28<andythenorth>send numbers
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12:31<andythenorth>I have vehicle A, with capacity 48, and default cargo age period 185
12:31<andythenorth>I have vehicle B, with capacity 79, and cargo age period N
12:32<andythenorth>what does N need to be, so that A profit > B profit on a travel time of 15 days
12:32<andythenorth>[costs are levelled]
12:33<andythenorth>oh we'd need the slope set by the cargo grf for the cargo
12:34<andythenorth>curve is
12:35<andythenorth>distance is 40
12:36<andythenorth>so rates can double
12:36<Wolf01>Did you try with imaginary numbers yet?
12:36<andythenorth>@calc 134 * 2 * (48/10)
12:36<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1286.3999999999999
12:36<andythenorth>@calc 133 * 2 * (79/10)
12:36<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2101.4
12:37<Wolf01>Probably the complex realm could really help you
12:37<andythenorth>this is actually lame
12:37<andythenorth>I should have checked this 3 days ago eh
12:38<andythenorth>I never pay any attention to how long vehicles take to travel a route in game
12:38<andythenorth>I have been working on the basis that other authors say the magic number for cargo aging to work is about 64 tiles
12:38<andythenorth>but that doesn't account for speed
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12:44<andythenorth>oops :)
12:44<andythenorth>well I can't be arsed to revert it all
12:49<Wolf01>What does speed has to do with cargo aging?
12:49<andythenorth>it's related by ... maths? :P
12:49<andythenorth>uuf /me should be nicer
12:50<andythenorth>faster trains arrive sooner, cargo ages less
12:50<Wolf01>Only if you can reach lightspeed or use whormholes?
12:50<andythenorth>so the idea that aging is about distance is nonsense
12:50<andythenorth>but that is what is written
12:50<andythenorth>in the forums and so on
12:51<andythenorth>and in my own code comments and advice
12:52<Wolf01>I think it was you that started this and now it's like a boomerang :P
12:53<andythenorth>it's been around for a while, first posts about it are 2010-2013 or so
12:54<andythenorth>but I have gamed myself yes
12:54<andythenorth>this is interesting
12:55<Wolf01> <- this should answer your questions
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13:00<andythenorth>this game looks awesome
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13:06<andythenorth>so theory 1 was to increase cargo age period above 185, to give a bonus to some vehicles
13:06<andythenorth>when that didn't work, some of us tried theory 2
13:06<andythenorth>theory 2 is to set fast aging to give a malus to some vehicles instead
13:06<andythenorth>but as that doesn't work either, how about theory 3?
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>you could increase the size of the age counter
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>to make shorter age period reasonable
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, you could completely rework the price calculation
13:12<andythenorth>maybe I should make a spreadsheet with a chart
13:12<andythenorth>I can't work out what the result of setting age period to 1 would be
13:12<andythenorth>on a route that takes 15 days
13:13<andythenorth>it won't age 185 times faster, right?
13:13<andythenorth>15 times faster?
13:15<Wolf01>I still don't get it
13:17<andythenorth>ok my test train has now lost £80k in a year with cargo age 1
13:17<andythenorth>but running cost is £47k so that's lol
13:18<andythenorth>must be residual transfer credits on the test route
13:18<Wolf01>Negative income cargo
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13:20<glx><riis> do i still need to convert ottd to a console app? <-- yes still needed on windows
13:20<glx>we do it for CI regression test
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13:25<andythenorth>looks like setting cargo aging to 1 does have an effect on a 15 day route
13:25<andythenorth>for FIRS pax at least
13:25<andythenorth>dunno about other grfs
13:26<andythenorth>the case in 2013 against a payment multiplier was that setting the cargo payment should be left to the cargo grf
13:26*peter1138 grumbles about gui sprites with transparent areas
13:26<andythenorth>and that a cargo aging period is the correct solution
13:26<andythenorth>because that doesn't....mess with the payment curve at all
13:27<andythenorth>peter1138 what have they done to you?
13:27<andythenorth>can I help? :P
13:27<andythenorth>this cargo shit got boring a week ago
13:27<@peter1138>They cause wrong window sizing.
13:27<@peter1138>Known old problem
13:28<@peter1138>Back in the old days the widget size was specified in pixels, and the sprite drawn in the top left.
13:28<@peter1138>So if the sprite is smaller than the button it doesn't matter
13:28<@peter1138>Why would you waste time drawing transparent pixels?
13:29<@peter1138>But then we started using the sprite size to determine the button size, and...
13:29<andythenorth>I see
13:29<@peter1138>And even if the button size is fixed, drawing the sprite in the centre is not correct.
13:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] WimLeflere opened pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
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13:32<LordAro>sounds like a bug in ogfx :p
13:32<Wolf01>Calculate total width considering transparent pixels but center alignment without the transparent pixels?
13:32<@peter1138>The transparent pixels don't exist.
13:33<@peter1138>LordAro, original graphics.
13:34<michi_cc>Hmm, is there anything we really don't want to backport to 1.11.1? Looking at GitHub, almost all recent PRs are tagged for backport anyway.
13:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8951: Fix graphical issues with dragging measurement tooltips in the viewport
13:35<andythenorth>do cargo packets age on stations?
13:35<@peter1138>Deep Oceans.
13:35*andythenorth getting nonsensical results from testing
13:37<glx>michi_cc: well the first backport batch will be easy, but once we add some features it will be another story
13:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #187: [nb_NO] Translator access request
13:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #186: [pt_BR] Translator access request
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13:38<@peter1138>andythenorth, days_in_transit?
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13:39<andythenorth>2.5 days / tick?
13:40<@peter1138>Well, it's increased 1 when your cargo_age_period lops
13:40<@peter1138>but it only goes up to 255
13:40<andythenorth>got a vehicle on cargo age 185 and a vehicle on cargo age 1
13:41<andythenorth>on a route of 15 tiles first vehicle earns about 6x more than second
13:41<andythenorth>which looks about right
13:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #184: [zh_CN] Translator access request
13:42<andythenorth>hmm, no the in-game cargo chart never shows the payment curve reaching 6x less than starting value
13:42<@peter1138>Maybe I could just Action 5 some replacement sprites to get rid of the offsets and stuff.
13:43*andythenorth completely confused
13:43<michi_cc>glx: There's a macOS crash-bug, 1.11.1 shouldn't wait that long.
13:43<andythenorth>really not sure what value I'm supposed to set :)
13:43<glx>I know
13:44<LordAro>be nice to fix the GL-related crashes as well though
13:44<andythenorth>the empirical testing doesn't give me any useful number :)
13:44<@peter1138>Are there GL crashes?
13:44<andythenorth>I need a number, then I need to factor in vehicle speed
13:44<glx>at least 2 different
13:44<andythenorth>then I need to factor in FIRS payment rate, and default game pax rate
13:44<andythenorth>and detect all known FIRS versions
13:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #130: Apply labels to access request after approving/denying request
13:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] frosch123 closed issue #130: Apply labels to access request after approving/denying request
13:45<glx>but they are weird #8967 and #8969
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13:46<frosch123>TrueBrain: to extend your list: we support amazon by streaming on twitch, and we support google by uploading to youtube
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13:48<TrueBrain>ah, there is Google
13:48<TrueBrain>tnx :)
13:49<@peter1138>LordAro, this offset + transparency issue is also why the buoy icon is in the wrong place on the waterways construction menu, and the place sign button the landscaping menu
13:49<@peter1138>There's probably some other locations
13:50<LordAro>peter1138: is it actual original graphics, or our-original graphics ?
13:50<frosch123>hmm, buoy used to use the same sprite on map and in gui
13:50<frosch123>was that fixed somewhen?
13:50<@peter1138>It's a different sprite
13:51<@peter1138>LordAro, the music player sprites are definitely original, I think place sign is too, not sure about the buoy
13:52<andythenorth>frosch123 can your cargo aging spreadsheet model setting age period to 1
13:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:53<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:53<@peter1138>I wonder if we should add back the "vu" meter :D
13:53<frosch123>it can, but 1 is a pretty silly value, it will reach the age limit pretty fast
13:53<andythenorth>I am curious what it predicts
13:54<andythenorth>that only ages 6 times on a 15 day journey?
13:54<frosch123>someone should write a blog about vehicle economy
13:54<andythenorth>I don't think it can be me
13:54<andythenorth>testing empirically, the results are non-understandable
13:54<frosch123>andythenorth: no, 1 will max out aging after 3 days or so
13:55<frosch123>and since age includes loading and unloading, it would require a rather short trip :p
13:56<andythenorth>ok so I need to time from when first cargo is loaded?
13:56<andythenorth>not departure :P
13:56<andythenorth>that affects empiricism
13:56<frosch123>cargo ages inside vehicles
13:57<frosch123>if you have gradual loading (probably), the cargo will be of different age
13:57<andythenorth>are cargo packets FIFO?
13:57<andythenorth>or LIFO?
13:57<frosch123>neither, vehicles have a blender installed on them
13:58<andythenorth>super :)
13:58<frosch123>they mix old and new cargo into a homogenous blend of middle-aged cargo
13:58<andythenorth>probably only a marginal difference
13:58<andythenorth>17 day route, 6.76x profit difference, identical run costs
13:59<andythenorth>I am trying to scale vehicle A and vehicle B so that vehicle A is more profitable on routes > 20 days
13:59<andythenorth>I can't find a scaling factor
13:59<frosch123>haha, factor 7 difference in income :p i heard newgrf authors say, cargo aging does nothing :p
13:59<andythenorth>I can normalise it for vehicle speed later
13:59<andythenorth>and then I can detect which grf is providing pax
14:00<andythenorth>and find out the payment curve steepness
14:00<andythenorth>I am going to ignore different playstyles, and route congestion and cdist transfer payment effect
14:01<andythenorth>1 is too fast, I'll try 2
14:02<andythenorth>I wonder if there's enough granularity
14:05<andythenorth>2 hits the floor I think
14:05<andythenorth>shall I increment in 1, or bisect? :P
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14:06<@peter1138>Add lots of printfs :D
14:08<andythenorth>the route takes 20 days and I want a 1/1.66 reduction of earnings
14:08<andythenorth>number must be there to be found
14:11<frosch123> <- do you want charts like that? but for vehicle profits?
14:11<andythenorth>I don't know if I want it :)
14:12<andythenorth>but this is what's in the spec
14:12<andythenorth>the number is > 15
14:12<andythenorth>this is exciting no?
14:12<andythenorth>is the number 18?
14:12<frosch123>it's a paper solution to a problem that is better solved with some interactive app
14:12<andythenorth>well if we could make it interactive
14:13<andythenorth>we'd have the formula? :)
14:13<@peter1138>So apparenly "4" corresponds to 10 days. Hmm.
14:13<andythenorth>and if we have the formula, I could reverse it
14:13<andythenorth>then we could just automate having a payment multiplier
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14:14<@peter1138>So 185 is 462 days?
14:16<andythenorth>that matches what spec says
14:16<andythenorth>in newgrf wiki
14:16<@peter1138>Ok. Graph doesn't show that value. heh.
14:17<andythenorth>I don't really understand the graph
14:17<andythenorth>cargo isn't aged for 185 ticks
14:17<andythenorth>but the graph shows it aging immediately
14:18<andythenorth>the chart x scale only goes to 200 days even
14:18<@peter1138>What does "cargo isn't aged for 185 ticks" mean?
14:19<andythenorth>from the wiki " By default, cargo is aged every 185 ticks"
14:19<andythenorth>which implies a flat line for first 462 days
14:19<andythenorth>but chart shows immediate slope
14:20<@peter1138>Wrong way around.
14:20<@peter1138>185 ticks is 10 game days
14:21<andythenorth>makes more sense
14:21*andythenorth re-reads wiki
14:21<andythenorth>" 185 game ticks (roughly 2.5 game days)"
14:22<LordAro>@calc 185/74
14:22<@DorpsGek>LordAro: 2.5
14:23<TrueBrain>@calc 2.5*74
14:23<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 185
14:24<@peter1138>Oh, right, I missed it too :p
14:24<@peter1138>Stupid brains
14:24<@peter1138>Anyway, graph on discord... I wonder what I've done wrong :p
14:25<TrueBrain>I like that graph
14:25<TrueBrain>challenging to not deliver it too quickly, but also not too late
14:27<@peter1138>Well, looking at it, I've not done anything to cause an overflow/rounding issue. So it's not impossible that cargo aging is broken.
14:28<andythenorth>nice graph
14:29<andythenorth>snail said in testing it was parabolic
14:29<@peter1138>Hmm, unless it is wrapping again.
14:29<andythenorth>but eh
14:29<@peter1138>j = 0; j != 60; j++
14:29<@peter1138>j * 4 + 4
14:30<@peter1138>That... is still only up to 244, not wrapping past 255.
14:34<andythenorth>wiki says timefactor is floored at 31
14:34<@peter1138>Yes, it is.
14:34*andythenorth doesn't have src open
14:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8943: Volume controls in Game Options window
14:35<andythenorth>dp's charts show route length not days, but eh
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14:37*andythenorth is there a livestream soon, where we can ask questions? :P
14:38<frosch123>right, i have to prepare my bingo card
14:38<michi_cc>I will make sure we will ignore you all the time :P
14:38<andythenorth>"how does cargo payment work?" :P
14:38<@peter1138>return 4;
14:39<@peter1138>Ok, I guess the drawing is wrong :D
14:41<@peter1138>Yeah, I confused MAX_DATASETS with NUM_MONTHS
14:41<@peter1138>(because days are months, amirite?)
14:41<@peter1138>Okay, looks better now
14:42<@peter1138>Passengers flatlines after 310 days
14:43<@peter1138>Somewhere between £11-£12.
14:43<@peter1138>18:40 < andythenorth> got a vehicle on cargo age 185 and a vehicle on cargo age 1
14:44*andythenorth tests some more
14:44<andythenorth>maybe it's 20
14:45<andythenorth>magic numbers
14:46<frosch123>hmm, what are the rules for bingo? is it enough for a question to be asked in chat, or do the broadcasters have to acknowledge it also?
14:47<frosch123>the latter is way harder to predict
14:48<michi_cc>Depends how large you make your bingo field I guess. Unless only trivial questions are asked I don't think we'll manage that many questions.
14:49<andythenorth>glad we made fast forward fast
14:49<andythenorth>testing cargo age takes a long time
14:50<@peter1138>Didn't the first round of timing changes make it fast anyway?
14:50<@peter1138>(2 years? ago)
14:50<andythenorth>not on a mac
14:50<@peter1138>Bloody macs.
14:50<TrueBrain>there is fast, and insanely fast :P
14:51<andythenorth>ok so 20 is the number for cargo age
14:51<andythenorth>why though?
14:51<@peter1138>Whose number where?
14:51<andythenorth>this is just for one type of train
14:51<andythenorth>I need a formula to balance out arbitrary trains
14:52<andythenorth>all the factors are available, vehicle speed, capacity
14:52<andythenorth>grf payment curve I can get by decompiling all the cargo / industry grf
14:53<andythenorth>I can add a parameter for player to select the balancing point
14:54<andythenorth>well a few parameters TBH
14:54<andythenorth>when I first suggested a formula last week I was trolling myself
14:55<andythenorth>but now it looks like the best route
14:56<@peter1138>Action 5 "extend existing sprite" :/
14:57<@peter1138>VS Code doesn't seem to cache references. Takes ages to look them up.
15:01<andythenorth>I probably can't use running costs to fake a cargo payment multiplier?
15:01<andythenorth>CB36 doesn't run often enough
15:03<frosch123>running cost is one of those cb that run all the time
15:03<frosch123>people use it to set running cost to 0 at 0 speed
15:03<frosch123>and to set it to a higher value when accelerating (0 < speed < max speed)
15:03<frosch123>and a third value when idling at max speed
15:04<andythenorth>sounds promising
15:04<andythenorth>can we have signed running costs?
15:04<andythenorth>might need some flag setting, in case existing grfs have running costs > 127?
15:04<andythenorth>oh the cb goes higher
15:16<andythenorth>or maybe a payment multiplier would be simpler dunno :|
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15:44<frosch123>hmm, it's actually hard to come up with 25 unique questions
15:44<frosch123>usually people ask the same thing 5 times with different words
15:46<EER>I'd be interested to know about some behind the scenes stuff with the steam release, like anything noteworthy that had to change in the release process? Other than that just looking forward to some banter ;-)
15:47<frosch123>he, that's cheating
15:47<frosch123>you can't ask questions before the stream
15:48<michi_cc>There will be some banter I guess, but otherwise we'll try to seriously answer questions.
15:49<EER>I did press ctrl+shift+c before typing this, so I thought that should enable cheats :p
15:49<frosch123>too bad the "overly dramatic message" was removed :p
15:50<supermop_Home_>frosch123 i use different running costs for: in depot (no crew), stopped (crew but no operational cost), accelerating (heavy fuel use and mechanical wear), and cruising (minimal fuel and wear)
15:52<supermop_Home_>and a bunch of switches, so that the labor part gets more expensive than the fuel part as time progresses
15:54<supermop_Home_>i'd rather vehicles just had a property of "how many people staff this thing" and the cost of worker/month can be then set by newgrf or GS or NewInflation
15:55<frosch123>then you need a setting "labor unions: on/off"
15:56<andythenorth>is there a var that will give me how many days the route will take?
15:56<supermop_Home_>to be serious though, i feel there is value separating out labor vs fuel cost
15:56<frosch123>are there still two drivers in uk trains?
15:56<andythenorth>controversial that
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15:56<Timberwolf>It would tie things right back to Chris Sawyer's PC conversion of Frontier, to have your train sit in depot 8 months because you upgraded from 7 crew to 12 crew and the RNG won't give you anyone to hire.
15:56<frosch123>was it a thatcher thing?
15:57<andythenorth>predates that
15:57<andythenorth>it was driver + fireman
15:57<andythenorth>and then driver + guard, but guard has to go in back cab
15:57<supermop_Home_>steam engine cheaper to run than diesel in 1930 but much much more expensive in 1990
15:57<andythenorth>unless there is no back cab
15:57<andythenorth>then a brake van is needed
15:57<andythenorth>also if there are certain types of brake system, the guard may not ride in the rear cab
15:57<andythenorth>so then brake van
15:57<andythenorth>Horse 3.0 models all this?
15:58<supermop_Home_>i think that dynamic has real gameplay value beyond the rivet counting
15:58<andythenorth> :P
15:58<frosch123>yes, start/stop callback: the labor union does not approve operation of this train in this configuration
15:58<frosch123>no further explanation needed
15:58<supermop_Home_>that the cost/benefit comparison of 2 different vehicle types can change over time
15:59<frosch123>not enough politics in ottd
15:59<supermop_Home_>i'm not even thinking of labor politics, just
15:59<frosch123>anyway, i made it to 30 questions... time to drop 5, and put the rest on a 5x5 grid
15:59<Timberwolf>Add complexity to the economic model, that gets political fast.
16:00<supermop_Home_>simple but labor intensive machine is cheap early, complex but easy to use machine is cheap later
16:01<Timberwolf>There's an interesting discussion somewhere of SimCity have an ultra-capitalist economic model, somewhat against the grain of what Will Wright talks about around the game.
16:01<supermop_Home_>Timberwolf i just want a way to add another property to compare vehicles in game
16:02<frosch123>when people talk "simcity" these days. what version do they refer to?
16:02<Timberwolf>(Sims in game only care about land value. If it's going up they want to move to your city, if it's flat or decreasing they want to move away.)
16:02<frosch123>iirc the last version (2013?) was so terrible, it killed the series
16:02<Timberwolf>Heh. Original, 2000, 3000, 4 and Cities: Skylines :)
16:02<frosch123>oh, right, cities:skylines it is
16:02<Timberwolf>I don't know what model Skylines uses.
16:02<supermop_Home_>of course if a new grf author sets every steam, electric, and maglev train to have 1 staff and 1 unit of fuel consumption that's up to them
16:03<andythenorth>I am trying to find a way to have vehicles trade tile length and income
16:03<andythenorth>but I have spectacularly failed so far
16:03<Timberwolf>I realised this when I added the taxation-effects-town-growth mechanic to Villages Is Villages.
16:04<andythenorth>more capacity / length = more income
16:04<andythenorth>no trade
16:04<andythenorth>arsing around counting how many days a route takes and then looking on the cargo payment chart isn't turning out to be fun
16:04<Timberwolf>Maximum population in towns depends on tax, maximum size of city depends on total dividends paid, the city with your HQ in it grows immediately when you pay dividends.
16:04<andythenorth>running costs would need to know the income in advance :(
16:05<supermop_Home_>currently if you set steam train to 120 runcost and diesel to 130, they will have the same delta forever
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16:05<Timberwolf>I did this and then thought, "hang on, that's actually a series of quite strong political statements"
16:07<supermop_Home_>some trainsets have electric trains with higher running cost than diesel
16:07<Timberwolf>Or rather, the net effect of them is.
16:08<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ that would be fixable within the spec though?
16:08<andythenorth>Timberwolf is GS?
16:08<supermop_Home_>so its like you pay more to build and maintain the tracks, pay more to buy and run the trains, totally linearly
16:08<Timberwolf>YEah, that's my town growth and economy GS.
16:08<supermop_Home_>in return you maybe get a little sportier performance, or maybe all the diesel trains become obsolete
16:09<Timberwolf>The economy setup is that if companies pay a lot of money to their shareholders but little to the state, cities prosper at the expense of towns.
16:10<Timberwolf>I do think it needs a way to influence things one way or the other so you actually have some agency in this.
16:10<supermop_Home_>but there is no trade off of "this is a high traffic line, i should electrify it" vs "this line gets little traffic, it makes sense to pay a little more per mile in fuel for the one train than to hang up wires over it"
16:11<supermop_Home_>like wise, at the steam/diesel/electric transition, basically steam trains are cheaper and have lower running cost than early electrics or the first diesels
16:12<andythenorth>I pretty much levelled the steam and diesel
16:12<supermop_Home_>so it comes down to just "its the 50s now, there are no more steam trains and all the next diesels will be better across the board"
16:13<supermop_Home_>what i am getting at has 3 levels i guess:
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16:15<supermop_Home_>1) tad more granularity to running cost, 2) some dynamic comparison between vehicle types, 3) most remotely, an inkling of a richer inflation/economy model (certain things can get more expensive faster than others)
16:20<andythenorth>1) is fine no? I don't have trouble with it
16:20<andythenorth>2) ... well
16:22<andythenorth>something is wrong about the idea of a cargo aging malus on some vehicles
16:22<andythenorth>it doesn't work right on routes that are supposed to be above the threshold
16:23<andythenorth>I think it's because the 'short route' train has already hit the decay limit
16:24<andythenorth>and the 'long route' train continues to decay
16:24<andythenorth>so the difference between them reduces as a ratio
16:30<@peter1138>Yes, it will.
16:31<@peter1138>Solution, get rid of the threshold. If it takes too long, no payment is made :p
16:31<supermop_Home_>if it takes too long the passengers sue you for unlawful detainment
16:32<andythenorth>I started with cargo aging 1 :P
16:32<andythenorth>I should have set the other train to 0
16:32<andythenorth>Vehicle A: ages immediately
16:32<andythenorth>Vehicle B: ages never
16:32<andythenorth>You decide!
16:33<andythenorth>then there is no threshold :P
16:33<andythenorth>just play
16:33<andythenorth>where did I leave my payment multiplier patch?
16:34<andythenorth>lol, so not a patch
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16:42<andythenorth>ok the magic number doesn't work
16:42<andythenorth>it's way too faffy
16:42<andythenorth>20 is too low, 32 is too high
16:43<andythenorth>allowing for e.g. slopes, congestion, train speed, train power etc, it's going to be too fragile
16:43*andythenorth abandons that
16:43<@peter1138>Vary it by something
16:43<@peter1138>Something random
16:43<andythenorth>day of year?
16:44<andythenorth>not exactly random :P
16:44<andythenorth>cargo aging is just a dice roll?
16:55<frosch123>make cargo aging depend on the year, and use that to compensate inflation :p
16:56<andythenorth>I think you might need to stage an intervention soon
16:56<andythenorth>and we never mention cargo aging again
16:57<andythenorth>it's starting to traumatise me
16:57<andythenorth>I took the idea of 'random per vehicle' seriously
16:57<frosch123>are you on the stream? or do you want to ask questions yourself?
16:57<andythenorth>I am not on the stream
16:57<frosch123>i finished my bingo card, but i may need a second player
16:58<andythenorth>hmm I tried using speed as a balance against capacity
16:58<andythenorth>but moar pax = moar payment
16:58<frosch123>i decided to count both "questions asked in chat" and "question acknowledged by streamers"
16:58<andythenorth>I don't think I could keep up with questions in caht
16:58<andythenorth>chat *
16:58<frosch123>if the latter wins, it has precedencs. the former is a backup-rule, if noone wins otherwise
16:59<frosch123>oh, quite sure it will be the same as on reddit or steam. every 5th line the same question by a different guy
17:00<frosch123>we can play another game: take the first question that is answered. guess how often it is asked again during the stream :p
17:00<andythenorth>so many games :)
17:00<andythenorth>prize for best question also
17:04*andythenorth adventures in C++
17:04<andythenorth>any way to get the vehicle from VehicleCargoList?
17:04<andythenorth>or would a reference have to be store in VehicleCargoList?
17:05<nielsm>too late to try looking anything like that up
17:05<andythenorth>I can only face this late at night :)
17:05<andythenorth>this is so...out of my depth
17:05<andythenorth>ideally I would have drunk more
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17:06<andythenorth>they have this->Parent
17:06<andythenorth>but I don't know what that would get me :)
17:06*andythenorth should learn to printf
17:08<andythenorth>typedef CargoList<VehicleCargoList, CargoPacketList> Parent; might be a thing
17:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why do all FIRS 4 industries have such enormous base production :-(
17:08<andythenorth>they do?
17:08<FLHerne>I'm trying to build my little 64^2 world
17:08<andythenorth>I think it might be a valid case for a parameter
17:08<FLHerne>But everything needs trains, because the number of 1920 road trucks to move 200 tons/mo is impractical
17:09<FLHerne>I think it would be nice if it scaled up by date
17:09<FLHerne>but of course that's another thing to tune
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17:09<andythenorth>well I have been considering ways to allow production to increase
17:09<FLHerne>Which cheat?
17:09<FLHerne>Money is ok, it just looks really stupid
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17:09<andythenorth>Enable modifying production values?
17:10<FLHerne>I completely forgot that was a thing
17:10<andythenorth>FIRS respects that setting
17:10<andythenorth>I could do a parameter though
17:10<FLHerne>I foresee abusing this to an absurd degree in future games
17:10<andythenorth>"Base production" would be ok
17:10<FLHerne>"damn this industry is producing too much for my aesthetic trainset" is a frequent annoyance
17:11<andythenorth>I'd like to restore the option for OpenTTD to increase production
17:11<andythenorth>in conjuction with supplies
17:11<andythenorth>not sure I can control it enough
17:11<andythenorth>also this Horse thing is my current unhealthy obsession
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17:14<FLHerne>I like the lack of production increase of served industries
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17:15<FLHerne>In base game it just gets unmanageable without huge unrealistic stations
17:15<FLHerne>More variety in base production between instances would be nice IMO
17:16<FLHerne>That way I could choose how 'big' a farm I want to serve
17:16<FLHerne>Well, not on this tiny map because there's one farm :p
17:16<FLHerne>oops, I just crashed ottd
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17:24<andythenorth>I was thinking maybe a GS :P
17:24<andythenorth>could do it
17:24<andythenorth>I also considered the option to have 'lucky' and 'unlucky' industries
17:24<andythenorth>lucky ones occasionally increase if given supplies
17:24<andythenorth>(base increase)
17:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8975: Change: do not disable NewGRF window apply button if dev tools are enabled
17:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8976: Fix #8930: [Win32] Don't handle printable keys on keydown if an edit box is in focus.
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17:37<FLHerne>TrueBrain: can you make GitHub accept .sav as an upload file type, or is that a hardcoded GH thing?
17:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne opened issue #8977: Crash when increasing max zoom
17:42<FLHerne>bleh, GitHub is stupid
17:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8974: Change: [win32] Use user UI language for initial language selection (#8973)
17:48<@peter1138>I love stupid dirty hacks.
17:48<@peter1138>if (id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_PREV || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_NEXT || id == SPR_IMG_STOP_MUSIC || id == SPR_IMG_PLAY_MUSIC) { SpriteLoader::Sprite *s = &sprite[ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X]; PadSingleSprite(s, ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X, 0, 0, 20 - s->width - s->x_offs, 20 - s->height - s->y_offs); }
17:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened issue #8978: OpenTTD downloading from OneDrive freezes at startup
17:49<didac>OK so the weirdest thing is happening:
17:49<didac>thank you DorpsGek, so nice of you
17:52<@peter1138>Yeah, don't use Onedrive for stuff you don't want to sync...
17:52<@peter1138>All sorts of weird shit happens.
17:56<andythenorth>peter1138 that looks like something I'd do :P
17:56<andythenorth>it would work, and it would be ick
17:56<andythenorth>condition="vehicle.is_lead_unit_of_consist and (consist.power > 0 or consist.buy_menu_hint_wagons_add_power) or consist._buy_menu_role_string is not None"
17:57<@peter1138>See, it works ;p
18:01<@peter1138>Possibly removing the offsets will work instead
18:01<TrueBrain>FLHerne: zip the sav file and you can upload it
18:03<FLHerne>I did that
18:03<FLHerne>But it would be more convenient not to :p
18:04<FLHerne>"bleh, GitHub is stupid" was when I realized it had parsed the #1, #2, #3, ... in the backtrace as issue numbers, and then helpfully put backlink comments "FLHerne mentioned in issue" on every one of those
18:06<dwfreed>FLHerne: edit that section and wrap it with ```
18:06<dwfreed>1) it'll be easier to read; 2) it won't do issue references
18:06<andythenorth>hmm is it bedtime?
18:07<dwfreed>I mean, it's 11 PM for you, right?
18:07<dwfreed>so, probably close :P
18:07<andythenorth>I took a week off to work on grf :)
18:07<andythenorth>7 days in, all I've achieved is deleted a bunch of Iron Horse, then tried to restore it for 3 days, then failed :D
18:07<andythenorth>I could cry if it wasn't so lolz
18:08<FLHerne>dwfreed: From previous experience, editing doesn't remove the references
18:08<FLHerne>So I'd need a time machine
18:09<dwfreed>It won't remove the backlinks, but it will remove the forward links
18:09<dwfreed>it will stop seeing #1 as an issue reference in your issue
18:09<FLHerne>I don't really care about those
18:09<dwfreed>point 1 is still valid, though
18:10<andythenorth>let's see what cargo aging 0 does for lolz
18:10<dwfreed>also it parsed some of the backtrace as emoji
18:10<dwfreed>which is hilarious and annoying at the same time
18:13<FLHerne>hah, now that's annoying enough to make me edit it
18:20<@peter1138>Hmm, yeah, removing the offsets also works. Hmm.
18:21<FLHerne>peter1138: wtf is that code you quoted?!
18:22<@peter1138>Delightful isn't it?
18:22<@peter1138>if (id == SPR_IMG_BUY_LAND || id == SPR_IMG_BUOY || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_PREV || id == SPR_IMG_SKIP_TO_NEXT || id == SPR_IMG_STOP_MUSIC || id == SPR_IMG_PLAY_MUSIC) { SpriteLoader::Sprite *s = &sprite[ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X]; s->x_offs = 0; s->y_offs = 0; }
18:22<@peter1138>Also work s;)
18:25<@peter1138>Action 0x0A would be the correct way but would require... borrowing... sprite data.
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18:26<andythenorth>if id in [list]
18:26<andythenorth>{ fixups[name] }
18:27<@peter1138>Of course it depends on the baseset too.
18:27<andythenorth>what else are basesets for? :)
18:27<@peter1138>I assume OpenGFX doesn't have this issue.
18:27<@peter1138>Yeah, that's fine.
18:28<@peter1138>aBase has this issue, along with thousands of others
18:29<FLHerne>Which issue?
18:30<@peter1138>^ what that 1 line does
18:30<@peter1138>Eh, kinda. Some of the other padding changes are not that line.
18:31<FLHerne>I see
18:32<@peter1138>I wonder if there's any other places...
18:33<@peter1138>Arguably the 4 landscape type selection buttons...
18:33<andythenorth>fuck knows what messing with these payments will do to transfer legs
18:33<@peter1138>They have an offset to centre the sprites on the original buttons, but...
18:35<@peter1138>Ah yeah, that looks better
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18:37<@peter1138>TrueBrain, I heard you like multithreading... when you open the content window, there's a lot of *something* going on that causes everything to stutter for a bit, even if you close the window.
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18:37<@peter1138>I think it's might just be something silly like repeatedly sorting the list.
18:39<@peter1138>Transmitter icon, yeah
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18:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
18:43<michi_cc>peter1138: Don't know where you arrived by now, but would it be an idea to "mirror" the offsets as padding on the other side?
18:44<@peter1138>michi_cc, that was actually my first attempt, and does work.
18:44<@peter1138>Setting offsets to 0 works for any size sprite though.
18:45<@peter1138>It may not be exactly the correct position though.
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18:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
18:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
18:50<@peter1138>Turn on security features. Get surprised by security features doing security things. ... Profit?
18:51<FLHerne>peter1138: I think just close that?
18:51<FLHerne>It's clearly not an OTTD problem
18:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] empjustine commented on issue #8970: Ramsomware Protection preventing NewGRF download
18:57<andythenorth>this malus on suburban coaches is pretty evil
18:57<andythenorth>32 - 20, depending on train generation (accounts for speed)
18:58<andythenorth>default is 185
18:58<andythenorth>it's not mentioned in buy menu :D
18:58<andythenorth>'probably fine'
19:00<@peter1138>That last point though
19:01<@peter1138>Why *doesn't* OpenTTD use %AppData%
19:01<glx>because it's an old game
19:03<dwfreed>hysterical raisins
19:03<@peter1138>Hmm, dates from Windows Vista.
19:03<glx>but user not being able to write stuff in its document folder is weird
19:03<glx>many games still use document folder for config and saves
19:04<dwfreed>many games that post date even windows 10 use Documents instead of AppData
19:04<andythenorth>since cargodist?
19:04<andythenorth>should we?
19:04<andythenorth>increase default cargo aging from 185?
19:04<andythenorth>journeys are typically much longer
19:04<andythenorth>we = me :P
19:04<@peter1138>Cargo doesn't age if it's sat on a platform.
19:05<andythenorth>but it might be on more legs
19:05<@peter1138>Maybe it should :p
19:05<andythenorth>and stuff
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19:05<andythenorth>pls add newgrf property
19:05<andythenorth>decay rate on platforms
19:05<andythenorth>diamonds: 100%
19:05<@peter1138>newgrf puberty
19:05<andythenorth>coming of age
19:05<andythenorth>difficult teenage years
19:06<@peter1138>When was the first NewGRF?
19:06<@peter1138>I'm assuming it predates OpenTTD.
19:06<andythenorth>I have carefully tuned these cargo aging values to do _something_ for 6 generations of trains, but only point to point :P
19:06<andythenorth>now I turn on cdist
19:06<andythenorth>goes it throw out tuning?
19:07<@peter1138>Don't worry about it
19:09<andythenorth>one train is losing money horribly :)
19:09<andythenorth>the others profit profit
19:13<@peter1138>SPR_IMG_TRANSMITTER too
19:15<@peter1138>SPR_IMG_QUERY even. Hmm.
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19:25<@peter1138>Oof, list is getting longer.
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19:27<andythenorth>also lol
19:28<andythenorth>in my cdist network test
19:28<andythenorth>long leg of the route: the 'short route' coaches with aging malus outperform the long route coaches with standard aging
19:29<andythenorth>short leg of the route: the long route coaches outperform the short route coaches
19:29<andythenorth>"go figure"
19:29<andythenorth>transfer stuff :P
19:37<andythenorth>and if I change the trains on the long leg, the short route works as expected
19:37<andythenorth>conclusion: I don't want 'andy tuned cargo aging for cdist' on any gravestone
19:41<andythenorth>also sleeping
19:44<@peter1138>So I need some way to pad or zero offsets only for these few sprites, and only for the original graphics (dos or windows I guess)
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20:27<TheArcaneBrony>is it just me or is terrain gen slow?
20:27<TheArcaneBrony>version: 1.11.0
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's when there's no space for more industries (no flat land, weird newgrf restrictions, whatever)
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 09 00:00:55 2021