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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-06-05

---Logopened Sat Jun 05 00:00:15 2021
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02:56<LordAro>needs michi's newmap branch :p
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03:08<Wolf01>I still can't play a decent tank game... I should decide if I want to play pong or the exact opposite, not both at the same time
03:10<TrueBrain>LordAro: or any of the other 5 "newmap" branches OpenTTD has seen over the 17 years :P :P
03:10<@Rubidium>tfc_newmap?
03:18<andythenorth>we need a new map? :o
03:20*andythenorth likes the old map
03:26<TrueBrain>playing the same map becomes a bit boring at some point
03:26<TrueBrain>sometimes you just have to take a new seed and run with it
03:50<andythenorth>does anybody here know about programming?
03:50*andythenorth tried to make a PR and got stuck https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/9093#issuecomment-828762960
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03:58<TrueBrain>andythenorth: your last comment in that thread makes 0 sense to me when looking at the code
03:58<TrueBrain>I don't see iterating over any vehicle :P
03:59<TrueBrain>also given that the last push you did was essentially empty ..
03:59<TrueBrain>did you commit the right thing there?
03:59<andythenorth>well that could be embarassing
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04:01<TrueBrain>you don't have to quit out of embarrassment now :P
04:01<LordAro>mysterious
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04:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JOScW
04:27<Wolf01>https://9gag.com/gag/aDdVvRN 8 trains in 40 seconds... sure try with just 2 tracks
04:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EmperorJake commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default https://git.io/JGQHi
04:46<TrueBrain>(((int)(((unsigned char)((int)type)) & 15)) | ((int)SLE_VAR_NULL))
04:46<TrueBrain>why does it insist on casting to int so much, ugh
04:46<TrueBrain>andythenorth: ps: you just pushed another empty change to that PR, just so you know
04:47<TrueBrain>did you forget to commit, and are the changes still staged?
04:48<TrueBrain>I love I could solve the issue by using some strong language: "(type & 0xfu) | SLE_VAR_NULL"
04:55<andythenorth>hmm maybe I have failed at git somehow
04:55<andythenorth>I can see my shell history, "git add ." is my usual lazy way, but hasn't added the files to staging
04:55<andythenorth>unusual
04:55*andythenorth such git
05:04<LordAro>add -u
05:04<LordAro>unless you're actually adding new files
05:09<TrueBrain>I have a setting somewhere that has no name .. hmm
05:12<TrueBrain>FOUND IT!
05:12<TrueBrain>:D
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05:30<Wolf01>How?
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05:34<Wolf01>I would like to put a checkbox with no label or tooltip in one of my softwares, just for fun
05:37<TrueBrain>hmm .. so my Python reader can read a certain savegame just fine
05:38<TrueBrain>but the OpenTTD client is missing 22 bytes
05:38<TrueBrain>and I don't know why :D
05:51<TrueBrain>okay, found which 22 bytes they are, I just don't understand why :P
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05:57<TrueBrain>grrrrr ... found it ... took only over 30 minutes to spot it .. and it is such an iny tiny minor detail
05:57<TrueBrain>ugh
06:00<andythenorth>lol andythenorth is silly
06:00<andythenorth>trying to make git commits with git add .
06:01<andythenorth>but pwd is build
06:01<TrueBrain>so start using git add -A :P
06:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JOScW
06:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame https://git.io/JGlmd
06:03<TrueBrain>right, now my savegame-reader tool can read industries \o/
06:03<TrueBrain>that was .. painful
06:04<andythenorth>\o/
06:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JG746
06:04<TrueBrain>gratz andythenorth
06:04<TrueBrain>and here, the solution :P
06:04<andythenorth>hurrah
06:04<TrueBrain>pretty sure you could have come up with that yourself ;)
06:05<andythenorth>you would have won that bet
06:06<TrueBrain>code-wise it reads fine, but I also read people disagreeing over the specs :P
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06:24<michi_cc>I'm apparently not a good judge for NewGRF, so I'm not going to touch it, not even with a very long stick.
07:12<andythenorth>OpenGL shader for night mode?
07:24<nielsm>issue with night mode is still that you want lights on, which needs new art
07:25<_dp_>OpenTTD RTX? :p
07:25<TrueBrain>nah, just an AI calculating where to add lights
07:26<TrueBrain>should be easy
07:27<_dp_>yeah, moddable AI
07:27<_dp_>make api -> problem solved
07:27<TrueBrain>we just have to train it, so we let people click on the map where lights should be
07:27<TrueBrain>and it should pick up on it quickly enough
07:28<TrueBrain>some distributed cloud blockchain, and we are done
07:28<nielsm>could make a system where you can supply PNG files to replace selected sprites with night-mode versions
07:31<TrueBrain>oooorrrrrrrr
07:31<TrueBrain>we can force andythenorth to make them
07:32<TrueBrain>>:D
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07:39<andythenorth>nielsm most buildings use the same purple for windows
07:40<andythenorth>or we could extend grf with a lights layer which contains windows, neon signs, etc
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07:40<TrueBrain>neon signs :D
07:41<TrueBrain>when a town builds properly it spells "you are weird"
07:42<_dp_>I have a revolutionary idea...
07:42<_dp_>... how about fixing daylight graphics first? :p
07:43<TrueBrain>if you take care of that, we will work on the night
07:44<_dp_>funnily enough I'm actually drawing some pixels right now
07:44<_dp_>though result suggests I'd rather not :p
07:46<TrueBrain>about half-way converting stupid chunks to tables .. ugggghhh ... slllloooowwwwwww
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07:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame https://git.io/JGlmd
07:57<TrueBrain>and .. now with signs-support
08:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 opened pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit. https://git.io/JG5mG
08:01<frosch123>oh, that kind of signs...
08:01<frosch123>i was on the signed/unsigned integer track :p
08:02<TrueBrain>reason I used plural :)
08:02<frosch123>i just assumed you already skipped ahead to storing numbers as text in json :p
08:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 commented on pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit. https://git.io/JG53L
08:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame https://git.io/JGlmd
08:08<TrueBrain>okay ... finished the easy ones ..
08:12<TrueBrain>stations and vehicles are just a mess
08:14<TrueBrain>why are roadstops special?
08:14<TrueBrain>(stored in their own chunk)
08:15<TrueBrain>owh, no, it is just the linked list
08:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JOScW
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08:17<TrueBrain>frosch123: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp#L237 <- happen to have a smart/good idea how to store a header for a chunk like this?
08:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JG5n1
08:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JG5Cc
08:24<andythenorth>can trains have their toilets emptied in a depot?
08:24<andythenorth>and the drinks bar restocked?
08:30<frosch123>TrueBrain: you mean, how to solve if a tablecell contains a list of structures? currently the only variable-length celltype is a string, right? maybe there could be a celltype for "list of uint/int8/16/32/64", then the "list of structs" could be decomposed into multiple lists of trivial types
08:30<TrueBrain>list of uint already exists
08:30<TrueBrain>(SL_ARR)
08:31<frosch123>ok, so when changing the format, it could be handled by the schema. but that does not allow loading old games with a compaitiblity-schema :)
08:32<frosch123>hmm, though in this case it would actually work, since the arrays are fixed size
08:32<TrueBrain>so instead of {a, b, c, [{d1, e1, f1}, {d2, e2, f2}] you suggest making it {a1, b1, c1, [d1, d2], [e1, e2], [f1, f2]} ?
08:32<frosch123>yes
08:33<frosch123>and in the _compat make it a {a1, b1, c1, d[0], e[0], f[0], d[1], e[1], f[1]}
08:33<TrueBrain>station has 1 substruct with 20 (!) elements
08:33<TrueBrain>of which 1 is a list :D
08:34<TrueBrain>so I can see it working for towns etc, but for that station blob ..
08:35<TrueBrain>owh, and 1 sub-struct is dynamic in size .. lol
08:35<TrueBrain>(as in, it doesn't use NUM_CARGO or something)
08:36<TrueBrain>so that idea won't work for all cases .. meh ..
08:36<TrueBrain>but I do wonder if we can't have a list of structs ..
08:36<TrueBrain>the size is known
08:37<TrueBrain>so we could do: {header1, header2, INDICATOR-LIST-OF-STRUCT, 0} {subheader1, subheader2}
08:37<TrueBrain>if that makes sense
08:37<TrueBrain>so when reading the header you get to know there is another header following to construct the struct for the list
08:37<TrueBrain>also means we need to store NUM_CARGO in the savegame, but that is a good idea either way
08:38<frosch123>i am still trying to figure out what the station is actually storing there :p
08:39<TrueBrain>{_station_desc} + NUM_CARGO * { {GetGoodsDesc} + cargo_size * {_cargo_list_desc} }
08:39<TrueBrain>a list of structs in a list of structs :)
08:40<TrueBrain>{_station_desc} + NUM_CARGO * { {GetGoodsDesc} + flows * {_flow_desc} + cargo_size * {_cargo_list_desc} }
08:40<TrueBrain>even
08:40<TrueBrain>{_station_desc} + NUM_CARGO * { {GetGoodsDesc} + flows * {_flow_desc} + cargo_size * {_cargo_list_desc} } + num_specs * {_station_speclist_desc}
08:40<TrueBrain>that blob is insane
08:40<frosch123>it is a "map<cargotype, multimap<stationid, CargoPacket*>>"
08:41<TrueBrain>it really should have been more than 1 chunk, tbfh :P
08:41<frosch123>so each station has a dynamic list of pairs of (stationid, cargopacket-ref)
08:42<frosch123>TrueBrain: i had a coworker who liked to talk about the different levels of database normalization :p
08:42<TrueBrain>sounds like you killed him :P
08:42<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization#Normal_forms
08:42<TrueBrain>I am aware of normal forms, yes .. I had my database courses too :P
08:43<TrueBrain>omg, Ptrs_STNS also reads from the savegame
08:43<TrueBrain>wtf
08:43<TrueBrain>I think that is the only one doing that ..
08:43<frosch123>there was a time when the CTO wanted to know from each business section, how they use databases (with the intention to figure out whether there could be some joint oracle->psql effort)
08:43<frosch123>some departments replied with a slide of "who they are, and then 3 examples"
08:44<frosch123>my coworker wrote a single sentence: we use ?NF, and a wikipedia link
08:44<frosch123>(i can't remember the ? part)
08:45<TrueBrain>and the CTO applauded? :P
08:45<frosch123>TrueBrain: does it? doesn't Ptrs_STNN just loop over the maps?
08:46<TrueBrain>owh, wait, we have STNN and STNS
08:46<TrueBrain>that is not confusing either
08:46<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/saveload/station_sl.cpp#L582 <- it is reading something
08:47<TrueBrain>ah, no
08:47<TrueBrain>nevermind, I forgot how Ptrs worked
08:47<TrueBrain>read: I keep surpressing
08:48<frosch123>:)
08:48<TrueBrain>I think a good first step is to create old_station_sl.cpp
08:48<TrueBrain>as this is very confusing to read
08:49<TrueBrain>in better news: station is the only one that is this complex
08:49<TrueBrain>well, linkgraph comes close too
08:49<frosch123>STNN means 'stations new'? :p
08:49<TrueBrain>I would guess so, yes :)
08:50<TrueBrain>we have more read-only chunks, maybe we should put them in their own folder
08:50<TrueBrain>they are basically read-only at this point :)
08:50<TrueBrain>can't believe the complexity of the station code ..
08:51<TrueBrain>but okay, I think allowing a list of structs is the way to go
08:51<TrueBrain>only needs to be done for the header, I think ..
08:54<TrueBrain>and prefixing the lists with a length gamma solves the weird _num_dests and friends
08:54<frosch123>the magic here is that the length of the list is written in another column
08:55<frosch123>GetGoodsDesc write _num_dests and _num_flows
08:55<TrueBrain>yup
08:56<TrueBrain>and if my suggestion works, we can remove those columns basically
08:56<TrueBrain>as a list of structs would be very similar to a list of uint32s
08:57<TrueBrain>although .. current a list of uint32s is only possible with a fixed length
08:57<TrueBrain>owh, wait, no, SaveLoad as SL_ARR, which is fixed
08:57<TrueBrain>and SL_LST, which is dynamic
08:58<frosch123>does it hurt to make all lists dynamic?
08:58<frosch123>(in the savegame)
08:59<TrueBrain>few more bytes on disk
08:59<TrueBrain>for now what I did with SL_ARR, that the header also stores the length for those entries
08:59<frosch123>i mean from a savegame-viewer point-of-view
08:59<TrueBrain>so it is no longer {type, field-name}
09:00<TrueBrain>but {type[, length], field-name}
09:00<frosch123>would they want to know whether a list is homongenously sized in all items?
09:00<TrueBrain>it does give more information, ofc, knowing it is fixes size
09:00<TrueBrain>but .. I can't think of anything significant
09:01<TrueBrain>if anything, it is easier if everything is an SL_LST
09:01<TrueBrain>and SL_ARR dies
09:01<TrueBrain>(an optional length-field is just annoying)
09:02<TrueBrain>we also have a few deque fields
09:03<frosch123>that's the same on disk as a LST, right?
09:03<TrueBrain>I had to look through several layers, but yes :P
09:04<frosch123>good, i would have believed you, if you had said "no" :)
09:05<TrueBrain>so if we make SL_ARR also behave like a LST, the world becomes slightly easier
09:05<TrueBrain>and that means for a list of structs we just need to add something like SLE_FILE_STRUCT
09:05<TrueBrain>and assign it a number
09:06<TrueBrain>and the SaveLoad code can remain mostly the same
09:06<TrueBrain>(so I am not going to embed a C++ struct in a struct, and learn the SaveLoad code how to read that :P)
09:07<TrueBrain>okay, I can see that working
09:07<TrueBrain>that means I have 1 more issue to figure out .. unions
09:09<TrueBrain>and ideally a clean way to avoid SLE_VEH_INCLUDE
09:09<TrueBrain>as that is just ... ugh
09:09<frosch123>make an list of struct with length 0 or 1 :p
09:10<frosch123>kind of std::optional
09:11<TrueBrain>can you in C++ do something like this: https://godbolt.org/z/86zq7nK55
09:12<frosch123>std::variant is the c++ way to do a union
09:13<TrueBrain>my godbolt is not about unions :)
09:13<frosch123>it's a union that knows which item is valid
09:13<frosch123>range concatenations is a c++20 thing
09:14<TrueBrain>currently there is SL_VEH_INCLUDE and SL_ST_INCLUDE
09:14<TrueBrain>which are just dirty hacks to avoid code duplication
09:14<TrueBrain>I was wondering if that could be solved with C++ nicely these days
09:14<LordAro>it's more container concatenation
09:14<LordAro>which is possible, but not particularly neat
09:15<LordAro>probably requires operator overloads, if at all possible
09:15<TrueBrain>nah, that would be too much
09:15<frosch123>TrueBrain: i guess make _waypoint_desc a GetWaypointDesc
09:15<frosch123>and concatenate them in code
09:15<TrueBrain>by throwing it in a std::vector?
09:15<frosch123>yes
09:16<frosch123>"static std::vector" even
09:16<TrueBrain>of
09:16<TrueBrain>c
09:16<TrueBrain>that would work for Vehicles too I guess
09:16<TrueBrain>as the cost of a runtime penalty
09:16<frosch123>a start-up penalty
09:16<TrueBrain>yup
09:16<TrueBrain>well, first-use
09:16<frosch123>you only fill the vector once :)
09:17<TrueBrain>I like that solution; that is a whole lot cleaner
09:17<TrueBrain>okay, so that solves that
09:17<frosch123>anyway, why i came up with the std::optional/std::variant thing
09:17<TrueBrain>list of structs for an union, how realistic is that, I wonder ..
09:18<frosch123>you could merge the vehicles into a single object, and have the train-specific part a s as sub-struct
09:18<frosch123>kind of like a list of structs, but with 0 or 1 list item
09:19<TrueBrain>not sure I follow (at all, honestly :P)
09:19<TrueBrain>how things are in memory is not that important atm; I am more worried how we can store it on disk in a sane way
09:20<TrueBrain>atm it is something like: {type, *{common}, *{type-specific}}
09:20<TrueBrain>your suggestion is to do more like: {[{train}], [{road}], [{ship}], ..}, I think?
09:21<TrueBrain>so "type" is the Nth list that is non-empty
09:22<frosch123>https://dpaste.org/bwH1
09:22<TrueBrain>{{common}, [{train}], [{road}], [{ship}], ..}
09:22<TrueBrain>sure :)
09:22<frosch123>no idea how to load it though :p
09:23<TrueBrain>yeah, that is the trick
09:23<TrueBrain>the reason the vehicle-type is at the start
09:23<TrueBrain>is so it can allocate the right type
09:23<frosch123>SLE_WRITEBYTE <- oh, i was confused how it could read it twice...
09:23<frosch123>but it doesn't :p
09:24<TrueBrain>SLE_WRITEBYTE is ... euh ... not what the name suggests
09:24<TrueBrain>it is SLE_SAVE_ONLY
09:24<TrueBrain>or something
09:25<frosch123>yes, the asymmetry between Save_VEHS and Load_VEHS confused me :p
09:25<TrueBrain>can't blame you
09:25<frosch123>it stored/loaded the same GetVehicleDescription, but the load part loaded an additional thing before that :p
09:25<TrueBrain>anyway, we could also just implement STR_FILE_UNION, tbh
09:25<TrueBrain>just more technical debt :P
09:26<TrueBrain>I like keeping shit simple
09:30<TrueBrain>wait, okay, we can do one better, which might just work
09:30<TrueBrain>for a list of structs I need to add STR_FILE_STRUCT anyway
09:30<TrueBrain>but the "list" part is optional
09:31<TrueBrain>so we can just do {type, common, train-struct, rv-struct, ..}
09:31<TrueBrain>but .. they can't be empty
09:31<TrueBrain>lol
09:31<TrueBrain>I am going in circles
09:31<TrueBrain>fml :P
09:31<TrueBrain>so what-ever, we just do {type, common, [{train-strcut}], ..}
09:32<TrueBrain>means minimal changes to current save/load code
09:32<TrueBrain>and an external tool can figure that out too
09:32<TrueBrain>the only "change" is that we write a few 0s extra to disk for each vehicle
09:32<TrueBrain>5 to be exact
09:33<TrueBrain>owh, and 1 1
09:33<TrueBrain>so 6 bytes per vehicle
09:33<TrueBrain>I think we survive
09:34<TrueBrain>tnx frosch123 ; will fiddle a bit with it, and we will take it from there again :)
09:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9322: Add: store table header for each chunk in savegame https://git.io/JGlmd
09:43<TrueBrain>right, "ai" supported too .. now we can easily see what AI is loaded
09:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default https://git.io/J3GPg
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10:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default https://git.io/J3GPg
10:13<andythenorth>I once got yelled at by my CTO of the time about normalisation
10:13<andythenorth>and how I had broken it all
10:14<andythenorth>we needed different data to show the actual customers
10:14<andythenorth>so I wrote some queries to fetch data across multiple tables
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10:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default https://git.io/JGdtv
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10:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 updated pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit. https://git.io/JG5mG
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10:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] PeterN commented on pull request #220: Fix #209: Cargo 'profit' callback applied a unit conversion, when there was no unit. https://git.io/JGdWH
10:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JGd8L
10:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JGd8w
10:54*andythenorth could just look up INVALID_DATE in src
10:56<andythenorth>hmm -1
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11:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default https://git.io/J3GPg
11:26<andythenorth>such dragging discussion
11:26<andythenorth>I should plug a mouse in and see what it does
11:28<@peter1138>I've used it like that since... well, since I implemented the setting that way.
11:30<andythenorth>do you have to pick up the mouse and move it?
11:35<andythenorth>so rename wood to logs?
11:35<andythenorth>hmm maybe a discord chat
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12:17<andythenorth>oh what now, I made a merge commit on 9093?
12:17<andythenorth>I thought I'd stopped that bad habit
12:17<andythenorth>it emailed me to say all checks failed :|
12:17<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/9093/checks?check_run_id=2752807357
12:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #9093: Feature: [NewGRF] vehicle var 0x4E, 'date of last station departure' https://git.io/JOScW
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12:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on discussion #9150: RFC: Have OpenTTD *not* lock the cursor position when dragging viewports by default https://git.io/J3GPg
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12:49<andythenorth>hurrah, fixed my own mess :D
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14:34<@peter1138>hurr
14:42<LordAro>peter1138: well done
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14:45<@peter1138>lol, not much of a ride compared to what you've been up to.
14:46<LordAro>:>
14:46<LordAro>any cycling is good cycling
14:46<LordAro>but yes
14:46<LordAro>guess what i get to do tomorrow
14:52<@peter1138>:D
15:02<andythenorth>anyone else getting random DMs?
15:13<frosch123>on IRC? no
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15:27<andythenorth>frosch123 you mentioned a few times - I'm curious now, how does a desert town grow if it has no water tower
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15:27*andythenorth hasn't played base game for years
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15:32<frosch123>if it is a tiny town of like 3 houses, it grows until it reaches some minimum population anyway. that's probably to ensure that the town accepts passengers
15:32<frosch123>but ultimatively it's the player's job to fund a water tower
15:32<frosch123>just like the player has to fund lumbermills
15:35<andythenorth>how does the player figure out it out?
15:35<andythenorth>I guess the town window
15:36*andythenorth planning a test of FIRS controlling town population growth, via building type selection
15:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JGbWn
15:36<frosch123>it's an old game. players were smarter in the 90s :p
15:36<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
15:37<frosch123>or maybe there was a printed manual
15:37<andythenorth>if I could place a 'town hall' industry or something in every town, that could explain how growth works via industry window
15:37<andythenorth>printed manual there was :D
15:38<andythenorth>I considered a GS, but Eddi has explained to me twice now how syncing user-installed dependencies is an impossible problem in computer science
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15:51<frosch123>andythenorth: reverse the thing. call the industry "industrial era", limit it to one per town, and limit all other industries to towns with "industrial era" achievement
15:51<frosch123>then the player can start a development program to bring more towns into the industrial age
15:52<frosch123>tribal towns just don't get any industries
15:52<frosch123>rename passengers to slaves, and you are done
15:54<andythenorth>I consider adopting part of your idea :P
15:54<andythenorth>I believe slave things are now deprecated in polite company
15:54<frosch123>fine, call them commuters :p
15:58<andythenorth>'satisfy industries to get more industries'
15:59<andythenorth>even player cannot build if town is not industrial?
16:00<frosch123>player cannot fund industries, you can show a custom error message "must fund industrialisation first"
16:01<frosch123>transporting stuff is fine ofc :p
16:01<frosch123>you cannot block building iron dragons through native terrritory
16:02<frosch123>unless you want to increase the breakdown rate there :p
16:02<andythenorth>hmm
16:02<andythenorth>I am tempted to try it
16:03<andythenorth>it doesn't help that I am trying to give a purpose to the final / tertiary / town cargos :)
16:03<frosch123>yeti already exists
16:03<andythenorth>in this idea, nothing could be built until the town is satisfied
16:03<andythenorth>but currently town satisfying cargos can't be done until everything is built
16:03*andythenorth considers revolution
16:04<frosch123>ah, so you want a tech tree :p
16:04<frosch123>you first have to develop the coal industry, until steelplants are invented
16:04<frosch123>stone age, bronce age, iron age, steel age
16:04<andythenorth>everything relies on player funding, yes?
16:04<andythenorth>(because OpenTTD can't reliably build new chains)
16:05<andythenorth>cheap industry costs, high satisfaction requirements
16:05<andythenorth>it might be a thing
16:07<andythenorth>tech tree FIRS
16:09<frosch123>call it SCND
16:14<andythenorth>can I just do the Warcraft 1 village buildings?
16:14<andythenorth>lumber mill, blacksmith, stable
16:15<andythenorth>supply chain
16:15<andythenorth>hmm
16:16<andythenorth>we are a bit short on window space to explain things like
16:16<andythenorth>"to build this industry, your town needs to be producing at least 300t of steel every month"
16:16<andythenorth>story book? o_O
16:17<frosch123>if it is fun to play, people will play it anyway, and figure it out
16:18<andythenorth>so many ideas for adding variety to FIRS
16:18<andythenorth>they're not all compatible
16:18<frosch123>let new players play XIS, less bug reports for you?
16:18<andythenorth>I already recommend that :)
16:18<frosch123>just fork firs, it's pretty common
16:18<andythenorth>fashionable
16:20<andythenorth>there was an idea about towns having a parent
16:20<andythenorth>which would give a regional capital
16:20<andythenorth>regional capitals could have a parent, which would be map capital
16:21<andythenorth>I tried to figure out how a town would be assigned a parent, but my ideas weren't good
16:21<frosch123>sounds like adding the option to store setting values as hex in openttd.cfg
16:21<andythenorth>bad?
16:21<frosch123>abstract stuff that noone will use
16:22<andythenorth>I would use it
16:22<andythenorth>mostly to do energy grid
16:22<andythenorth>and maybe some ideas that I shouldn't also
16:22<andythenorth>probably needs something fancy, like a voroni partition?
16:22<andythenorth>always fancy things
16:23<LordAro>voxels?
16:23<andythenorth>not sure they help with this :)
16:23<andythenorth>also we have voxels already
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16:32<andythenorth>hmm some BAD ideas
16:32<andythenorth>FIRS scrap yard production currently depends on town population
16:32<andythenorth>but I could make it also depend on cargos being delivered to the town
16:33<andythenorth>communicating via town register
16:33<andythenorth>or I could just shortcut all that, and do an industry visually split in tow
16:33<andythenorth>two *
16:33<andythenorth>one side scrap yard, one side vehicle dealer
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16:33<andythenorth>or one side scrap yard, one side retail park shops
16:34<andythenorth>extra frosch123
16:34<andythenorth>segmented industries: industrial park
16:35<frosch12>did you play yeti?
16:35<andythenorth>accepts: [whatever town cargos] produces: [scrap metal | waste | recyclables]
16:35<andythenorth>no
16:35<frosch12>it has multiple game modes, all about how to involve towns into the industry chains
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16:35<andythenorth>I have looked at it, and been on servers that have it
16:36<andythenorth>I mostly spent time looking at the slug
16:36<andythenorth>it's quite compelling
16:36<frosch12>is there an andy inside firs?
16:36<andythenorth>unlikely
16:36<andythenorth>although I have been turned into a gif on discord
16:36<andythenorth>never livestream
16:37<andythenorth>I could just do a house set and let FIRS control town growth
16:37<andythenorth>but I have enough projects, and houses are of limited interest
16:38<frosch12>what does the gif show?
16:38<frosch12>gif have no audio, so no "disagree" in there
16:41<andythenorth>it's my face
16:41<andythenorth>animated
16:41<frosch12>drinking beer?
16:41<andythenorth>can't remember :)
16:41<andythenorth>I'm trying to avoid it
16:42<andythenorth>hmm, having FIRS control town growth gets quite limiting in economy design
16:43<andythenorth>means I'd always have to include building materials and stuff, and make them available quite early in the chain
16:44<frosch12>clay houses :)
16:45<andythenorth>it would conflate with the desert / above snowline behaviour also
16:45<andythenorth>Tyler has a house set, the idea was something like 'FIRS tells a town register that the town is satisfied for a value in a range something like 0-3
16:46<andythenorth>then when new buildings are built by the town, the house grf reads the register and chooses a fancy building, or a less fancy building
16:48<andythenorth>the default desert / snowline town behaviour is a bit weird
16:48<andythenorth>I still don't know what FIRS should be doing about it :)
16:49<andythenorth>I currently just make sure food exists and hope for the best
16:50<andythenorth>hmm if TE_WATER cargo does not exist, it seems tropic drops the requirement?
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16:51<TrueBrain>frosch12: that info@ email is weird .. it is very nice someone asks permission etc, but he then signs with his nickname .. which completely invalidates the request .. I am a bit puzzled :)
16:51<TrueBrain>can't figure out if it is real or not :P
16:53<frosch12>i visited their yt channel
16:53<frosch12>they do not comment their games, so i cannot figure out their age
16:53<frosch12>but several videos require login to confirm age :p
16:54<frosch12>probably anime trash
16:54<TrueBrain>I just don't get it .. if you understand stuff enough to ask permission and not just do it .. why don't sign the mail with your full name?
16:54<TrueBrain>like: can I get permission to publish your book, but I am not telling who I am, so you are saying yes to "someone"
16:55<frosch12>i don't think its unusual people want to stay anonymous
16:55<frosch12>i also send all my mails as frosch
16:55<TrueBrain>wanting to be anonymous is fine .. except when you talk legal :)
16:55<TrueBrain>that is just .. 2 worlds .. colliding
16:56<frosch12>pff. i don't think they wrote that
16:56<frosch12>i think it's some template, people copy&paste it
16:56<TrueBrain>I am just a bit confused with the meaning of this email :P
16:56<TrueBrain>tried googling it, couldn't find it :D
16:56<TrueBrain>its funny how difficult it has become to judge if something is spam or not
16:56<frosch12>they have 10 subscribers, they are not part of any monetization program or channel network :p
16:56<TrueBrain>at least it is something else then the "free translator service"
16:58<frosch12>so, well, we get these mails every few years
16:58<TrueBrain>but I do take back a comment I made weeks ago .. as I now do agree with you: since we launched on Steam, the mails have gotten weirder :P
16:58<frosch12>commerical games usually have some rules on their website
16:58<andythenorth>hrm, I don't want to touch houses at all :P
16:58*andythenorth dodges that bullet
16:58<frosch12>TrueBrain: look in the drafts folder
16:59<andythenorth>even though they are broken for cargo acceptance by FIRS in some economies
16:59<frosch12>pm saved a template for this "can i stream on youtube" question
16:59<TrueBrain>frosch12: there is 1 mail in the draft folder :P
16:59<frosch12>err, templates folder
16:59<frosch12>but looks like it's broken now
17:00<TrueBrain>frosch12: some weird PGP mail that won't open :P
17:00<TrueBrain>but I believe you .. never seen this request before :)
17:00<TrueBrain>it just confused me :P
17:00<frosch12>you can also search inbox
17:00<frosch12>there is a 7 mail long conversation from 2015 with someone
17:01<TrueBrain>its funny, as this balances on the debate what is fair use :)
17:01<TrueBrain>still nobody really knows the answer :P
17:01<frosch12>the essence is usually: you can play openttd, but we do not own any of the basesets, add-ons, sounds, whatever
17:02<nielsm><TrueBrain> frosch12: that info@ email is weird .. it is very nice someone asks permission etc, but he then signs with his nickname .. which completely invalidates the request .. I am a bit puzzled :) <--- I haven't seen the email in question, but I think it'd make sense to write a page describing general permissions and exceptions for streaming/let's play content and related monetization
17:03<TrueBrain>nielsm: I call it the GPLv2 license :D
17:03<nielsm>(GPL allows you to use the work for any purpose including commercial purposes yes, but if you use any add-ons you need to check the licenses of those individually)
17:03<nielsm>(just write a page stating that)
17:03<TrueBrain>but go for it, I would say ;)
17:04<frosch12>i would not be able to write such page, without ridiculing the topic :p
17:04<TrueBrain>well, nielsm volunteered, didn't they?
17:04<frosch12>"make sure to not play any scenario with the 'no derivatives allowed' license"
17:05<TrueBrain>(look at that frosch12 , I did it correctly! :P)
17:05<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/blob/master/pages/policy.html <-- add to this page?
17:05<frosch12>yes, i noticed :p
17:05<TrueBrain>I am really curious what a court says if YouTube is within fair use
17:06<TrueBrain>and how far that can be pushed
17:06<TrueBrain>is making 1M dollar a month fair use, for example :P
17:08<frosch12>germany recently passed the upload filter law. it specifies limits for what is allowed in terms of "seconds audio", "seconds video", "kilobyte image", "characters text", with exceptions like "no key scenes" (like the 3 seconds of scoring a goal in a football game)
17:08<TrueBrain>really? funny :)
17:09<TrueBrain>are the limits within reason?
17:10<TrueBrain>125KB of graphics
17:10<TrueBrain>well .. that is a weird number
17:10<TrueBrain>before or after compression? :P
17:12<frosch12>ok, it says: 15 seconds video or audio, 160 characters and 125 kB image are free for non-commercial use
17:12<frosch12>as long as they are less than half of the whole thing
17:12<TrueBrain>the image is an odd duck
17:12<frosch12>yeah, more black&white pictures :)
17:12<TrueBrain>so you can show 50% of a tweet, basically :P
17:12<frosch12>more compression :)
17:13<TrueBrain>so if I project this on a game
17:13<TrueBrain>it means you can do 50% of a game
17:13<TrueBrain>as long as you flag it as "exception" :P
17:13<TrueBrain>my problems with these kind of laws is always that is very vague what they try to prevent
17:14<frosch12>this one is about "you can share trivial things, you need permission for anything else"
17:14<TrueBrain>but by the looks, they didn't really consider games with this law :)
17:14<frosch12>so baby dancing to background music for 15 seconds is allowed now
17:14<TrueBrain>well, if it is less than 50% of the original work
17:14<TrueBrain>so depends on how old the baby gets? :P
17:15<frosch12>most songs are longer than 30 seconds :p
17:15<TrueBrain>I was talking about the baby! :D
17:15<TrueBrain>does this also count for reposting? I would guess so
17:15<TrueBrain>so a repost is only 7 seconds of a baby dancing
17:16<TrueBrain>in combination with other content, ofc
17:16<TrueBrain>and to be clear, I am just trying to get a bit of feeling what they did, not trying to ridicule it
17:16<TrueBrain>so you can still do those youtube uploads which are montage of TikToks
17:17<TrueBrain>well, at least it becomes a bit more clear what is allowed and what is not :)
17:17<TrueBrain>the complete free-for-all atm is a bit weird
17:18<TrueBrain>I mean, I played many games by just watching someone else do it, without every buying it myself (or really playing it) .. it is a bit weird .. as I doubt the person playing it paid any of his revenue to the game creator
17:19<andythenorth>weird world is weird
17:20<frosch12>TrueBrain: streaming games is so popular, that companies usually say what is allowed
17:20<TrueBrain>did not know that; also not a streamer, that might be related :)
17:20<frosch12>it's usually along "you can stream the game, but disable the music, we only licensed it for the game"
17:20<frosch12>and "japanese companies do not allow anything"
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17:21<TrueBrain>just for my curiosity, happen to have an example?
17:21<frosch12>for story based streams it's usually "you are not allowe do show these main story elements"
17:22<frosch12>oh, and most important "your stream content must have the same age rating as the game"
17:23<frosch12>TrueBrain: https://www.paradoxplaza.com/letsplay-static-info-ca.html
17:24<TrueBrain>tnx
17:24<TrueBrain>TIL :)
17:24<andythenorth>will it be really limiting if every town won't grow unless a power station in the town zone is supplied with cargo?
17:24*andythenorth trying to figure out how to extend the range beyond 'this town'
17:24<TrueBrain>'You should include your own creative input and commentary' <- I like that
17:26<TrueBrain>that page is really nicely worded, damn
17:26<TrueBrain>I like that
17:30<frosch12>https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal/dd76b654-f2c4-4aaa-ba49-ca3122de2376/blizzard-video-policy <- another one
17:31<frosch12>looks like both forbit putting your gameplay behind a paywall :)
17:31<frosch12>lol, that page is really old
17:32<frosch12>half of the streaming services listed are defunct or renamed by now
17:32<TrueBrain>I like the paradox more, as it also includes monetization :)
17:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh opened pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNen
17:33<frosch12>TrueBrain: oddly enough it misses the "your content must have the same age rating as our game" rule
17:33<TrueBrain>yeah
17:33<TrueBrain>well, can't have them all :)
17:35<frosch12>also, i only watch games i wouldn't play myself :)
17:35<TrueBrain>same :)
17:35<frosch12>this game is interesting but requires too much micromanagement -> i rather watch someone else dealing with the annoyance
17:35<frosch12>someone is playing factorio -> such a noob, i can do that better
17:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNva
17:36<TrueBrain>I like watching horror-games .. cannot play them myself :P
17:36<TrueBrain>or very slow games .. like Shipbreakers
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17:37<TrueBrain>I get really bored playing it, but watching someone else doing it on the background is very nice :)
17:37<frosch12>some years ago i also noticed some behavior change for some streamers of story based games. when games had multiple story paths, they used to play all of them. at some point they changed to only play one, and then tell people to play themself if they want to learn more
17:37<frosch12>which sounds like a fair rule
17:37<frosch12>but no idea whether someone enforced it :p
17:38<TrueBrain>I am always surprised they finish the game :P
17:38<TrueBrain>as streamer, I would be very tempted to skip the last part and say: now go do it yourself
17:38<TrueBrain>but I am evil
17:38<frosch12>pff, if you are a full-time streamer, you have to fill the void with something
17:38<frosch12>not everyone sells their bathing water
17:41<TrueBrain>nielsm: reads like a fine text to me; we might get questions over time about it, but we can deal with that when they arrive
17:41<TrueBrain>I wonder .. does a Let's play need to link to the original source too, under GPLv2? :D
17:42<frosch12>they do not modify it, they only have to link where they got it from
17:43<TrueBrain>that is what I mean, yes
17:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNen
17:43<TrueBrain>maybe also something to add, just to make sure they know that?
17:43<frosch12>anyway, i think the "privacy policy" page is the wrong page for this
17:43<nielsm>added two things, I think are good to have
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17:43<TrueBrain>rebrand the page "legal"?
17:43<nielsm>nah if it was Affero GPL then you might need to offer the software when you showcase it
17:44<frosch12>nielsm: what was the license of opensfx again?
17:44<nielsm>GPL only applies restrictions/demands on distribution of the software
17:44<frosch12>it was some mixture of licenses, but not gpl
17:46<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenSFX/blob/master/docs/readme.ptxt#L35 haha wow
17:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNT8
17:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNkm
17:52<TrueBrain>ugh, forgot we have other pages like https://servers.openttd.org/listing also point to the "Privacy Policy" on www.openttd.org
17:53<TrueBrain>so a second page is easiest :D
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17:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNen
17:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNLn
17:58<frosch12>pretty sure bananas also links to it somewhere
17:58<Timberwolf>I probably missed the main conversation, but the only reason Timberwolf's Stations exists is because the only passenger station set I liked was mb's, but I couldn't see how streaming was compatible with his licence.
17:58<TrueBrain>most pages do
17:58<frosch12>ah yes, we copied the footer everywhere :p
17:58<TrueBrain>I also wanted the Privacy Policy everywhere. I think that is important :)
18:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNt0
18:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNen
18:01<frosch12>nielsm: https://www.openttd.org/contact.html <- please also add a link there :)
18:01<frosch12>i don't think it needs to be in the footer
18:01<TrueBrain>nielsm: you would make me really happy if you name the page "content_creators.html" (adding the _) .. but I won't not approve it if you don't :)
18:02<TrueBrain>or a "-"
18:02<TrueBrain>what ever works most for you :)
18:03<frosch12>the other pages have _
18:03<TrueBrain>but none have it in their URL
18:03<TrueBrain>I always think - in URLs is nicer :P
18:03<TrueBrain>but .. tomato tomato, really
18:04<TrueBrain>(sorry, I was looking at the permalink; yes, the file itself too :P)
18:05<TrueBrain>but okay, bikeshedding ++ .. I think this is awesome nielsm , tnx :)
18:06<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: that is a pretty whacky reason to make a NewGRF, but also pretty cool :)
18:08<Timberwolf>I am respectful of licences. Not so much 1980s television cartoons.
18:09<nielsm>I can't find a good place to put on the contact page
18:09<TrueBrain>nielsm: just make a similar green box below "Questions and player support"
18:09<TrueBrain>(before "Bugs and other issues")
18:10<TrueBrain>it should be before "Abuse", and after "Questions"
18:10<TrueBrain>and not between "Bugs" and "Feature Requests"
18:10<TrueBrain>so imo, either above Bugs or below Feature requests
18:11<TrueBrain>"Planning to use OpenTTD on your stream or want to upload your Let's Play to a video platform? Content Creator Guidelines: <link>"
18:11<TrueBrain>or something, as text in the white box
18:12<Timberwolf>I should get back to making boats.
18:12<TrueBrain>those super-realistic pirate boats? :D
18:12<Timberwolf>My stepdad suggested I look at all the things Everards have, for a cross-section of random coastal shipping vessels.
18:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNen
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18:13<Timberwolf>Mum and stepdad also gave me two boxes worth of 45rpm singles in desperate need of cleaning, which has not helped with newgrf productivity.
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18:14<Timberwolf>Digitising a somewhat worn copy of Guy Mitchell's 'Heartaches By The Number' is clearly more important for current and future civilisations.
18:14<TrueBrain>I am fine with #213; frosch12 , you too?
18:14<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: lol
18:16<Timberwolf>My dad had a lot more Shadows records than he let on. (But sadly not 'Wonderful Land', imo the best of their early '60s singles)
18:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] frosch123 approved pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGN3j
18:16<Timberwolf>In surprisingly good condition, given how many times he'd have repeatedly played the same sections trying to work out how to play them on guitar.
18:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #213: Add: Policy section for content creators https://git.io/JGNen
18:17<TrueBrain>and now we wait on staging ... :D
18:18<frosch12>and then flame the email sender, why they didn't check the website?
18:18<TrueBrain>I leave that to you :D
18:20<TrueBrain>+up
18:20<TrueBrain>but who is counting this late in a day
18:23<TrueBrain>https://www.staging.openttd.org/content-creators.html
18:24<TrueBrain>stylistic it could use some finetuning, to make it easier to read .. but .. that is for another day :)
18:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.29 https://git.io/JGNZS
18:27<frosch12>i am sure the layout will be improved just after the bananas upload form :)
18:27<TrueBrain>give or take a year
18:27<TrueBrain>(after the upload form)
18:34<TrueBrain>and pushed it on Discord as Announcement
18:35<TrueBrain>as I figured, if there are people who were not sure, they can be found there :P
18:43<andythenorth>hmm FIRS really lacks 'launch the rocket' eh
18:43<andythenorth>such fail
18:44<frosch12>there isn't even industry whack
18:45<Timberwolf>andythenorth: Build your first vehicle.
18:45<Timberwolf>Launch the Cortina.
18:45<andythenorth>lol
18:45<andythenorth>FIRS Steeltown is quite good with Silicon Valley and vehicles
18:46<andythenorth>if you are prepared to regenerate the map a LOT of times to get a viable map AND vehicles :)
18:50<Timberwolf>I do like the way I provide era-appropriate vehicle sprites all the way back to the 1800s, and I've never yet managed to complete the vehicle chain before they've become Cortinas.
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18:58<andythenorth>ha
18:58<andythenorth>if I do vehicles import in the West Country economy...
18:58<TrueBrain>clang: error: unable to execute command: Segmentation fault
18:58<TrueBrain>I DID IT!
18:58<TrueBrain>sorry :)
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19:04<andythenorth>oof bedtime
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19:05<Timberwolf>The last time I imported a vehicle to the West Country it overheated horrible in Bristol city centre traffic.
19:06<Timberwolf>Actually no, I have successfully driven two different Volvos to Cornwall without any significant mechanical failures occurring.
19:07<Timberwolf>Wait. Dorset is considered the West Country?
19:09<Timberwolf>I feel that definition needs to be updated to consider the density of London emigrées. It's getting close to an exclave in the coastal areas.
19:32<+glx>TrueBrain: when using clang in msvc I often trigger out of memory error
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