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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-06-09

---Logopened Wed Jun 09 00:00:20 2021
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03:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9338: Several code refactors of the SaveLoad code
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05:02<@peter1138>Amongst all those very old patches, and some more recent patches (only 10 years old...) I have nothing to do with ukwaypoints.
05:09<TrueBrain>peter1138: too bad :) Tnx anyway :)
05:09<@peter1138>Might be in some other location... Why have I never deleted this stuff...
05:10<@peter1138>Cool, my custom Minecraft server from 2010 :D
05:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9341: Add: '-X' option to ignore global folders in the search path
05:15<TrueBrain>lol :D
05:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9342: Change: allow pause/unpause console command in single player too
05:24<@Rubidium>should that also be used for the (build) regression tests? Or is that going to break the regression tests?
05:25<TrueBrain>currently people often have OpenGFX in their global path
05:25<TrueBrain>so no, regression should stay as it is for now :)
05:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9343: Add: execute "game_exit.scr" on closing the game
05:39<@peter1138>Gosh, I wrote some crap :D
05:44<TrueBrain>hmm ... I am trying to do this: load an old savegame, save it, run it for N ticks, save it again
05:44<TrueBrain>load the first savegame, run it for N ticks, save it
05:44<TrueBrain>and compare the two end-savegames
05:45<TrueBrain>they should be identical if nothing was going wrong with the save/load
05:45<TrueBrain>but .. they differ with 4 bytes in size alone :P
05:45<TrueBrain>that might be because of a tick difference
05:46<TrueBrain>well, even compatible NewGRFs that are loaded can cause it, I guess
05:46<TrueBrain>owh, and gamelog difference
05:48<TrueBrain>so, export-as-json and json compare might work .. but that is not 100% done yet :P
05:51<TrueBrain>okay, without the gamelog the size of the savegame is the same .. just binary different still :D
05:52<TrueBrain>very minimal difference .. just no clue what :D
05:58<@peter1138>You could try loading the old game on a server, then connecting a client, and see where that gets you :D
05:58<@peter1138>There's desync debugging stuff isn't there?
05:58<@peter1138>If it's different, then it would, indeed, be a desync issue.
06:02<@Rubidium>that amphibian's savegame dump tool might help ;)
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06:17<Eddi|zuHause>trunk/src/network/network.cpp:36:10: fatal error: charconv: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
06:17<Eddi|zuHause> #include <charconv>
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>what did i do wrong?
06:18<LordAro>your compiler is too old
06:18<LordAro>i wouldn't be opposed to solutions that remove charconv usage anyway
06:34<_dp_>crazy idea of the day: no terraforming with tools but you can load and unload dirt anywhere
06:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9343: Add: execute "game_exit.scr" on closing the game
06:37<_dp_>funnily enough it's probably someewhat possible already with some "construction site" industry and a bit of gs
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07:00<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like horrible gameplay
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>keeping aside the user interface issues, the game isn't really designed for temporary routes
07:01<LordAro>how about balanced terraforming?
07:02<LordAro>can only raise land if you've lowered it somewhere else
07:02<LordAro>might be fun
07:02<LordAro>GS might be able to do it?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's essentially like the burst mechanics
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>just you have a signed value
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>should be fairly straightforward to adapt. plus you get a slow decay over time for free
07:09<Xaroth>LordAro: lower too much land and the sea level rises, raise it too much and sea level lowers.
07:10<Xaroth>remove a mountain and suddenly half your rail network floods.
07:12<_dp_>yeah, gameplay is questionable
07:12<_dp_>may work if somehow limited to large terraforming projects though
07:13<_dp_>like if you want to build a dam across the lake you have to go through all the trouble
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07:51<@peter1138>12:10 < Xaroth> remove a mountain and suddenly half your rail network floods.
07:51<@peter1138>Sounds great in multiplayer
07:51<Xaroth>I know right
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09:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
09:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
09:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
09:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
09:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9343: Add: adhere the autosave_on_exit setting for Null videodriver
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09:15<@peter1138>I guess our UI isn't so bad...
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09:18<TrueBrain>hmmm .. the autosave-on-exit is not always done .. wth
09:21<TrueBrain>okay ... I start the game, pause it, save, unpause .. but the null-videodriver counts the ticks no matter if it is paused or not
09:21<TrueBrain>so it exits before the save is done
09:21<TrueBrain>and as it cannot do 2 save-actions at once, the exit.sav is never created
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09:23<@peter1138>EFL powers Samsung Galaxy Watch smartwatches
09:23<@peter1138>Oh no
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09:45<TrueBrain>okay, the JSON diff tells me, when I save/load the game, the AI blob can change
09:45<TrueBrain>that somewhat makes sense
09:48<@peter1138>All that effort :-)
09:48<TrueBrain>okay, when you do not have the right AI for a savegame
09:48<TrueBrain>it changes the "is_random" from 0 to 1 :)
09:49<+glx>and discard previously saved data ?
09:49<TrueBrain>dunno, not many AIs use that, so hard to tell :)
09:52<TrueBrain>well, at least for the parts I can JSON-ify already, diffs on games are empty
09:52<TrueBrain>so that at least is promising :D
09:53<TrueBrain>crazy-slow, takes ~30 minutes to process 500 savegames
09:53<TrueBrain>but okay :)
09:53<TrueBrain>some savegames take a long time to simulate for 256 ticks :P
09:53<@peter1138>It's the trees.
09:54<@peter1138>Trees and path signals :)
09:54<TrueBrain>but so what I am testing now is that the original game simulates the same as save/load that same game .. that means that my changes to the save/load do not influence the game-state
09:54<TrueBrain>so it is more likely I didn't fuck anything up :D
09:54<@peter1138>Almost like, say, a unit test? :D
09:54<TrueBrain>well, more like an integration test ;)
09:55<TrueBrain>I am not doing this on unit level after all :P
09:55<@peter1138>True true
09:56<TrueBrain>okay, I like being able to export to JSON :D
09:59<TrueBrain>lol, I have 1 game that is like completely different
09:59<TrueBrain>interesting .. and hard to tell if that is my work
09:59<TrueBrain>or an existing bug :P
10:04<TrueBrain>owh boy :P
10:04<TrueBrain>w00p, even ProZone games have no diff
10:04<TrueBrain>okay, so the idea works :D
10:05<TrueBrain>it just takes a lot longer than I expected .. ~2 hours for the full set, by the looks :P
10:06<_dp_>dunno about your case but for network desyncs there are certain things that can differ between server and client saves
10:06<TrueBrain>wait, really?
10:06<TrueBrain>is that what desync means?
10:06<TrueBrain>holy crap!
10:07<_dp_>I mean differ normally, without causing desynnc
10:08<_dp_>desync means that random state changed, not 100% identical save or game state
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10:11<@peter1138>Desync is often detected by the random state not matching, but that isn't what defines a desync.
10:16<_dp_>that's the only practical definition of desync I know of :p
10:17<TrueBrain>I think JGRPP is a fine example for using much more information to detect desyncs
10:17<TrueBrain>I still want to port that over to us
10:18<TrueBrain>but desync means the client and server no longer agree on the game-state
10:18<_dp_>it's mostly about detecting desyncs sooner, not defining it
10:18<TrueBrain>which we, with a poor-mans-solution, detect by looking at the random-seed
10:19<@peter1138> < lol, that is not what a keepalived script is meant to do
10:19<TrueBrain>but you seem to be confusing "detection of desyncs" with "desync"
10:19<_dp_>and then you'll have to define what "agree on the game-state" means
10:19<_dp_>are different states of vehicle flags a desync?
10:19<TrueBrain>peter1138: it is not? Awh!
10:20<TrueBrain>but, if it works .. it works, right? :D
10:20<@peter1138>A desync is when the state differs. Random state not matching usually happens after the initial desync, it's an effect of the desync, not the cause.
10:20<@peter1138>TrueBrain, it literally kills keepalived itself if postgres is not alive
10:20<TrueBrain>do I want to know in what corner of the internet you ended up in?
10:21<+glx>hmm using ChunkHandlerTable = span<const ChunkHandler *>; doesn't work for static const ChunkHandler *map_chunk_handlers[] = {}; extern const ChunkHandlerTable _map_chunk_handlers(map_chunk_handlers);
10:21<+glx>no compatible constructor
10:21<@peter1138>It's meant to return a status which keepalived uses to do the thing keepalived is designed to do...
10:21<@peter1138>TrueBrain, this bit, apparently :/
10:21<TrueBrain>glx: yeah .. I didn't add a way to allow span<> to be empty
10:21<_dp_>peter1138, and now you have to define "the state"
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10:21<+glx>well it's not empty, there's 11 element ;)
10:21<TrueBrain>glx: ah, your example showed it as empty :P
10:22<+glx>I just simplified copy/paste
10:22<TrueBrain>well, for sure it doesn't work on empty :)
10:22<_dp_>peter1138, and if you define it too vaguely you'll find out that openttd mp runs in a perpetual desync :p
10:22<TrueBrain>otherwise your copy/paste "looks fine"
10:22<+glx>seems Container constructors don't work for this
10:22<TrueBrain>if you can show a bit more code, I can give it a look
10:23<TrueBrain>but know that I implemented the bare minimum for span<> :)
10:24<JGR>Quite often, desyncs are due to cache issues. These caches are not actually stored in savegames and so comparing savegames after the fact is usually not useful.
10:24<+glx>TrueBrain: <-- nothing fancy, I'm just changing a type :)
10:25<TrueBrain>JGR: be mindful that nobody was talking about comparing savegames to detect desyncs :)
10:26<+glx>guess we need our version of gsl_api gsl_constexpr span( element_type (&arr)[N] ) gsl_noexcept
10:27<TrueBrain>JGR: that is the so, _dp_ randomly started to talk about it, but we were not :D
10:27<TrueBrain>so = say ;)
10:27<TrueBrain>for some reason I didn't press enter as I clicked a link
10:27<TrueBrain>now that is interesting :P
10:27<JGR>I'm aware of that, however diffing client and server savegames seems to be the suggest method for debugging desync issues.
10:28<JGR>That's fair enough.
10:28<TrueBrain>haha, yeah, using savegames for desyncs is a rather limited scope to investigate :)
10:29<TrueBrain>I think we have more code to investigate desyncs in OpenTTD than anything else (investigate-wise)
10:29<_dp_>TrueBrain, you were not but now we're talking comparing savegames! :p
10:29<TrueBrain>glx: that is odd, I would expect that to "just work"
10:29<TrueBrain>glx: have you tried changing the "ChunkHandler" type to a pointer?
10:29<TrueBrain>instead of adding a * everywhere :)
10:31<_dp_>and limited it may be but it's the only scope most of the time
10:31<TrueBrain>JGR: I also like that most often the solution to a desync is to save the cache :P
10:31<TrueBrain>which is sort-of funny :)
10:31<TrueBrain>why did we ever add so many caches in the game? :D
10:31<JGR>Because otherwise performance would be atrocious
10:32<JGR>Especially with GRFs
10:32<TrueBrain>to present an andy solution: just remove GRFs :P
10:32<TrueBrain>I am now working on reworking the linkgraph saveload part
10:32<TrueBrain>boy ... that is some special code
10:32<TrueBrain>it stores a lot of meta-data
10:32<TrueBrain>just to be sure after loading it is still doing the same thing
10:32<TrueBrain>pretty funny :)
10:33<JGR>If you didn't save all that, you get another type of desync
10:34<TrueBrain>complexity of the game increased quiet a bit :)
10:35<TrueBrain>fuck english :P
10:37<TrueBrain>glx: godbolt tells me that fixes the issue, which is funny :)
10:39<TrueBrain>as in:
10:39<TrueBrain>I guess this is part of the wonderful world called templates? :D
10:39<LordAro>of course!
10:39<+glx>haha it's magic
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>we could switch to german, if you don't like english :p
10:43<TrueBrain>ah, const is the issue
10:43<TrueBrain>works too
10:44<TrueBrain>and ofc too
10:44<TrueBrain>but yeah, it is a limit of my implementation, as std::span<> does work fine :)
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10:49<TrueBrain>glx: <- change that in your core/span_type.hpp
10:51<TrueBrain>but, correctly me if I am wrong LordAro , "const char *a[]" makes the pointer a const, where "const char* const a[]" makes "a" a const
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10:53<nielsm>the latter makes a a pointer that can't be changed, pointing at char's that can't be changed
10:53<nielsm>or huh no wait, it's also an array so nm
10:54<TrueBrain>linking the same thing twice, nice
10:54<TrueBrain>but yeah, good point
10:54<LordAro>oh lol
10:54<LordAro>damned clipboard
10:54<TrueBrain>but so in this case we indeed want "const" twice :)
10:55<TrueBrain>so you do not have to change span_type.hpp I think glx :)
10:55<TrueBrain>as we really want the list itself to be a const, not only the pointers :)
10:55<TrueBrain>explains why the "using ChunkHandler2" worked
10:55<TrueBrain>sanity restored :)
11:01<TrueBrain>its funny, as gsl-list writes everywhere "Container const" instead of "const Container"
11:01<TrueBrain>(both being equal, ofc)
11:01<TrueBrain>damn, too hot for typing
11:22<TrueBrain>owh yeah, my test-suite in fact did pick up on a bug Rb already told me about :D But that means it also finds things broken just fine :D
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12:10<@peter1138>Has OpenTTD renamed master yet?
12:14<@peter1138>Okay, I am not missing any commits then :D
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12:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #9344: Change: Reduce real sprite groups if possible.
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13:38<TrueBrain>glx: just so I have mentioned it, another example where chunk order really matters: Companies have to be loaded after EngineRenew
13:38<TrueBrain>they are -not- in the same file
13:42<TrueBrain>hmm, no, that is not true .. ugh, this code is difficult to read
13:42<TrueBrain>fuck it, I am going to waste a few more bytes in memory during loading .. that should make things a lot easier
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13:51<FLHerne>Out of curiosity, is the fancy bridge PR waiting on anything?
13:52<FLHerne>That's one feature I'm quite keen to see
13:52<@peter1138>NewGRF bridges?
13:52<FLHerne>Yes, 9161
13:52<@peter1138>I don't think anyone has gone through it thoroughly apart from frosch
13:53<@peter1138>Adding a NewGRF spec is quite a task, and I haven't look to see if this does it right :p
13:53<FLHerne>I thought about implementing NML support for it, but in that case it's guaranteed to be completely re-invented
13:54<FLHerne>because sod's law
13:54<@peter1138>Implementing support is a good way to find out if there are any dum... bits missing.
14:00<@peter1138>I looked at my old NewGRF bridges patch and it has absolutely nothing involving sprite resolvers, so it must have been using a fixed offset, like the original NewGRF stations code did (before I got my fingers on it)
14:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9339: Codechange: add and use the ability to store (lists of) structs in savegames
14:05<TrueBrain>right, companies saveload now uses SLE_STRUCT ..
14:05<TrueBrain>2 down, 2 to go
14:08<TrueBrain>after this, it means every SaveChunk basically only calls SlObject once
14:08<TrueBrain>which means everything is described by the SaveLoadTables :)
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14:39<frosch123>FLHerne: for some weeks i wanted to split off the bridge-pool from thar PR, but I keep on finding other things to do :p
14:55<@peter1138>Hmm, apparently there are 3 regression tests now, but the new one does not exist. Huh.
15:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
15:13<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
15:13<TrueBrain>lol @ peter1138 , you are doing what now? :D
15:14<TrueBrain>wow, GitHub schedule is getting close and clsoe to sanity
15:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9339: Codechange: add and use the ability to store (lists of) structs in savegames
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15:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vituscze opened pull request #9345: Fix: Crash when CTRL-clicking on a sign
16:01<V453000>I always forget, how is a wagon recognized in NML? It doesn't have tractive effort?
16:01<V453000>it's something else right
16:01<V453000>maglev also doesn't have that
16:02<andythenorth>no power isn't it?
16:02<andythenorth>power in action 0 = engine
16:02<andythenorth>no power in action 0 = wagon
16:03<andythenorth>but cb 36 can give power to wagon when built
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16:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9345: Fix: Crash when CTRL-clicking on a sign
16:09<+glx>I think #9337 is for you peter1138
16:16<V453000>ah yeah powered wagon is something else
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16:58<@peter1138>1/3 Testing: regression_Testing
16:58<@peter1138>CMake Error at I:/src/OpenTTD/cmake/scripts/Regression.cmake:15 (message): Regression test Testing does not exist (tip: check regression folder for the correct spelling)
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17:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vituscze opened pull request #9346: Feature: [NewGRF] Maximum curve speed modifier for rail vehicles
17:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vituscze commented on pull request #9346: Feature: [NewGRF] Maximum curve speed modifier for rail vehicles
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17:23<+glx>peter1138: weird
17:23<+glx>maybe clean build folder
17:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #9346: Feature: [NewGRF] Maximum curve speed modifier for rail vehicles
17:24<V453000>Feature request: ban andythenorth from github
17:25<andythenorth>goes it kick V453000
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17:40<andythenorth> Andrey Andreyev
17:40<andythenorth>sponsor of a silly train
17:40<andythenorth>people named variants of Andrey can be odd
17:41<andythenorth>double Andrey is double off
17:41<andythenorth>odd *
17:41<andythenorth>I was odd-by-one on the keyboard there
17:42<+glx>hey it survived 25 years before being scrapped
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17:45<@peter1138>Could it go around bends?
17:47<+glx>not really
17:47<+glx>even with sliding axles
17:49<andythenorth>ideal for the new 9346 PR
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 10 00:00:22 2021