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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-06-17

---Logopened Thu Jun 17 00:00:32 2021
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01:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnCp9
01:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
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03:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnWnG
03:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnWn5
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03:50<TrueBrain>and peter1138 , how did the burger sit? :D
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03:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnWgS
03:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnWa3
04:42<@peter1138>Still alive.
04:42<LordAro>:+1:
04:42<@peter1138>Actually there was nothing dubious about it, I just punning with VS Code's new "do trust the developers..."
04:42<@peter1138>*do you
04:43<@peter1138>Managed to slice some bread without checking the slicer's thickness. Ended up with almost melba-toast thickness :p
04:43<@peter1138>Ah well, lower carbs I suppose.
04:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9379: Change: prevent palette updates during copying to the video driver https://git.io/JnWMo
05:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9380: Fix: thread safety issue during exiting the game https://git.io/JnWH8
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05:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9379: Change: prevent palette updates during copying to the video driver https://git.io/JnWMo
05:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
05:31<TrueBrain>haha, awesome, you can start a DoCommand with _shift_pressed and leave it without it being pressed P
05:31<TrueBrain>what could possibly go wrong :D
05:31<TrueBrain>(answer: in reality? not much)
05:40<@Rubidium>desync if done in the reverse order? Not pressing _shift_pressed, but start pressing it during the DoCommand
05:40<TrueBrain>even then it doesn't hurt
05:41<TrueBrain>at worst it can give a weird feeling
05:41<TrueBrain>like: I pressed this button before I pressed shift
05:41<TrueBrain>but it still shows me the cost?!
05:41<TrueBrain>(only happens when the game-loop is very slow, really)
05:41<TrueBrain>going to fix it, don't get me wrong
05:41<TrueBrain>but it is such a non-issue to fix :P
05:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9381: Fix: don't propegate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/JnWNl
05:53<TrueBrain>now I have one left, that is just weird ..
05:53<TrueBrain>this->game_thread.get_id()
05:54<TrueBrain>during thread-creating this->game_thread is set
05:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
05:54<TrueBrain>in the thread, it issued to check if we are running
05:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
05:57<@peter1138>propagate
05:58<TrueBrain>fine
05:58<TrueBrain>:P
06:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
06:01<@peter1138>I guess password _shift_pressed as a command parameter would be the way to do it properly ;p
06:01<@peter1138>...
06:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
06:02<@peter1138>Passing, not password. WTF.
06:02<TrueBrain>as far as I know, _shift_pressed is only used client-side anyway :)
06:02<@peter1138>It is, yes, but globals are bad.
06:02<TrueBrain>yes!
06:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/JnWNl
06:06<@peter1138>How do you define how long an authenticated user session should last, policy-wise?
06:07<TrueBrain>there are some best practices for that, depending on your industry
06:07<@peter1138>Got a complaint that suggests it should be 2 weeks.
06:07<TrueBrain>depends on the application, etc
06:07<@peter1138>Which I'm against but want to justify properly rather than "I hate the idea"
06:07<TrueBrain>if it protects PII, no, 2 weeks is way too long :P
06:07<@peter1138>They only consider the "annoyance" of having to login again. :/
06:08<TrueBrain>security and user-experience are never friends :)
06:08<@peter1138>I don't block password managers or browsers remembering passwords, so it should be just one click anyway!
06:08<TrueBrain>but it really depends a bit .. OWASP for example mentions this in several places
06:08<TrueBrain>if you do a step-up when users access sensitive information
06:09<TrueBrain>it is not as important to expire sessions quickly
06:09<TrueBrain>this you see with a lot of modern websites .. you are remembered for a long long time
06:09<@peter1138>Yes.
06:09<TrueBrain>but as soon as you access your account settings: LOGIN PLEASE
06:10<TrueBrain>https://cheatsheetseries.owasp.org/cheatsheets/Session_Management_Cheat_Sheet.html#session-expiration
06:10<TrueBrain>OWASP spend a lot of words on it, maybe it helps you :)
06:11<TrueBrain>I like the "full workday" approach in most cases
06:11<TrueBrain>login in every morning isn't as annoying as people make it out
06:11<TrueBrain>login = logging
06:14<@peter1138>"Common idle timeouts ranges are 2-5 minutes for high-value applications and 15-30 minutes for low risk applications"
06:14<@peter1138>And we're already at 60 minutes.
06:15<TrueBrain>yeah, but what you see often that the session times out, but that you can reauthenticate without entering credentials
06:15<TrueBrain>OAuth providers supply in this, as example
06:15<TrueBrain>but often you want some kind of risk-assessment on that
06:15<TrueBrain>like: did the IP change drasticly?
06:16<TrueBrain>(going from UK to Russia in an hour .. seems unlikely)
06:16<TrueBrain>lot of (expensive) stuff is really needed to make the user-experience nice
06:16<TrueBrain>integration with Azure IAM for example is one way many companies solve it
06:16<TrueBrain>just moving the issue to someone who has solved it :P
06:16<@peter1138>Heh
06:17<TrueBrain>openttd.org moves it to GitHub
06:19<TrueBrain>but, in the end, it comes down to risk-appetite .. and that requires a CISO that is involved, understands the risk, and can make a call on it :P
06:19<TrueBrain>I have seen the weirdest shit .. from CRM systems that didn't require re-auth .. in like .. ever, with a min-password policy of 6 chars
06:20<TrueBrain>and I have seen systems with very low-risk data having 10 minute idle-relogin with 16 min-password policy :P
06:20<@peter1138>It was "easier" when I was doing PCI-DSS stuff, as it was clearly obvious that it MUST be short, etc... Of course, so much other crap...
06:21<TrueBrain>PCI-DSS is a fine example of protecting PII, at the cost of user experience
06:21<TrueBrain>and rightfully so :)
06:21<@peter1138>The 2 weeks IS a CRM system, btw.
06:21<@peter1138>So lots of PII.
06:21<TrueBrain>yeah .... so who-ever asked it needs a bit of training :D
06:21<TrueBrain>for a CRM system it is idiotic to think you don't have to authenticate at least once a day
06:22<TrueBrain>your session should be expired by the time you go home, basically :D
06:22<TrueBrain>(as a sad truth, those people are also more likely to be targeted for phishing attacks etc)
06:25<@peter1138>My system isn't so much PII, but is a commercial ordering and fulfillment platform, so there's real cost implications if things "go wrong."
06:25<TrueBrain>risk and balances :)
06:26<TrueBrain>but really, the CISO should set out the policy for this, so you don't have to debate this :P
06:26<@peter1138>Quite.
06:26<TrueBrain>such debates between colleagues of different departments never go well :P
06:27<TrueBrain>but, the amount of companies I found with competent CISOs I can still count on both hands
06:27<TrueBrain>cybersecurity is not in a good place :)
06:27<@peter1138>I have formulated my response, and it is basically that. Risk assessment and formal policy before we do any changes.
06:27<TrueBrain>I like that the US is pushing this now
06:27<TrueBrain>for all gov-stuff at least :P
06:28<TrueBrain>I do not understand why thread->get_id() isn't atomic or at least thread-safe
06:28<TrueBrain>that is a bit .. odd
06:28<@peter1138>I also sniped at the decision for 2 weeks on PII, cos...
06:29<@peter1138>PII-related-system, rather.
06:31<@peter1138>Be really annoying and enforce 10 minute session timeout AND require 2FA...
06:31<@peter1138>(Bye bye users)
06:31<TrueBrain>not having 2FA mandatory in 2021 is already .. well .. yeah ..
06:31<TrueBrain>you won't do good on any security assessment, let me put it that way :P
06:31<@peter1138>At least there'd be no bugs, as I could remove everything.
06:31<@peter1138>Hah!
06:32<@peter1138>It's still too hard, apparently :(
06:34<@peter1138>Also for end-users it's difficult to enforce, because they have no idea what it is still.
06:34<TrueBrain>which, again, highlights the dire state of cyber security in the world :D
06:35<@peter1138>We have 2FA enforced on a Cloudflare account and none of my colleagues can access it as they no longer have the 2FA codes. Apparently they "just disappeared"
06:35<@peter1138>And they are IT people, not the general public who'd rather not use a computer at all.
06:36<@peter1138>(Or mobile device)
06:37<TrueBrain>I have done one too many assessments within small and (very) large company to know that is a common problem :(
06:40<@peter1138>I guess I can add 'analytics' to the login process to see how often people need to log in, and how long it takes them to do so.
06:40<TrueBrain>you won't like what you see :P
06:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/JnlkG
06:44<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
06:44<TrueBrain>to highlight #9382: "Creating a thread was not thread-safe. The irony." :)
06:45<@peter1138>Hah
06:45<TrueBrain>just in our case we did a "if (a != <invalid memory) return", so it could never result in a bad experience for the user
06:45<TrueBrain>even if the invalid memory was the value of "a", nothing bad happened
06:48<TrueBrain>ugh .. we really could use a more clear separation between GUI-calls and game-loop-calls :P
06:48<TrueBrain>and guard access from GUI-calls to game-state and from gameloop-calls to GUI-state :P
07:02<@peter1138>Damn, took me 3.6 seconds to pick my saved password.
07:23<@peter1138>Next, add a captcha and really annoy everyone.
07:23<@peter1138>Although I think all the articles saying "don't use a captcha" are based on the old ones, which were more intrusive.
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07:57<@peter1138>I wonder how annoying a "Warning, you have not set up 2FA on your account!" message would be? :D
08:13<Xaroth>depends on how annoyingly big it obstructs the interface :P
08:13<Xaroth>if it's a giant flashing popup that covers your entire screen, very
08:13<@Rubidium>peter1138: just let them type in some text from a SMS to confirm they really want 2FA not to be enabled
08:14<@peter1138>;D
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09:32<@peter1138>Nice, I have login times of... -2147483648. Oops.
09:39<Xaroth>Time traveler!
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10:07<Samu>testing some changes that allows my AI to spend more time on managing road routes
10:07<Samu>https://i.imgur.com/Kcsck7F.png
10:07<Samu>results are kind of expected :(
10:08<Samu>there are now more road vehicles than aircraft
10:08<Samu>but the number of aircraft was also affected
10:09<Samu>in terms of profits, things went worse, expected
10:11<Samu>I'm unsure if I like this change overall
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10:16<@peter1138>Love it when someone shares their browser window in Teams and... none of the popups appear.
10:17<@peter1138>You need an AI to control what your AI should focus on.
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10:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnCp9
10:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/Jnl7F
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10:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
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11:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/Jnljg
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12:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
12:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 approved pull request #9380: Fix: thread safety issue during exiting the game https://git.io/Jn8cR
12:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/Jn8WI
12:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/Jn884
12:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9380: Fix: thread safety issue during exiting the game https://git.io/JnWH8
12:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/JnlkG
13:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn84g
13:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 approved pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/Jn8Be
13:11<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn8By
13:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn8u3
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14:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/Jn8wB
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14:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/Jn8rs
14:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/JnlkG
14:13<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I started out in this lovely world where everything video related can be pushed outside the game-state .. only to find out our code is so intertwined you really cannot just do that :P Polling the event system is the most interesting to me ... tons of state can be changed in there :P So much work left to do :D
14:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/Jn8oh
14:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/JnWNl
14:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/JnnOJ
14:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn863
14:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn86A
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14:49<@peter1138>https://twitter.com/micro_prose/status/1405570937462874120 < oh uh er
14:50<@peter1138>Well I had no idea MicroProse is thing again.
14:51<@peter1138>Hmm, brand bought in 2019.
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15:51<V453000>(:
15:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9367: Fix #9358: TarScanner no longer ignores empty files https://git.io/Jn8QF
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15:57<norri>I took a stab at fixing https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/9241, code is here: https://github.com/vituscze/OpenTTD/commit/cb560da933561377fe09cf512ae3161d14437f46
15:57<norri>not entirely happy with the cycle, it's a bit wasteful... but I guess it doesn't matter too much for scenario editor
15:57<norri>the end result looks like this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/855173925843238912/855173954439741481/unknown.png
15:57<norri>thoughts?
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16:08<jez>is there a "proper" way for my code to just estimate a command instead of actually executing it? DoCommandP calculates its own value for estimate_only - i basically want to be able to set that to true
16:08<+glx>it's a command flag IIRC
16:10<+glx>DC_QUERY_COST
16:11<jez>hmm, interesting.... DoCommandP doesn't use that
16:11<jez>estimate_only must be doing something else
16:12<jez>actually, DoCommandP is the network-safe one
16:13<jez>that doesn't seem to take flags
16:20<jez>i guess if i'm just testing, i should use DoCommand?
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18:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kO
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18:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kQ
18:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kN
18:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9358: Bug Report - tar loader ignores empty files. An AI that requires such file fails to start https://git.io/JZ93n
18:08<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9367: Fix #9358: TarScanner no longer ignores empty files https://git.io/JZbpT
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18:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kO
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20:07<esselfe>my game on my server has become rendering 1 fps... laptop cpu is 75% and tower pc (server) cpu is 20%
20:07<esselfe>other players say it's fine
20:08<esselfe>I tried restarting
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 18 00:00:33 2021