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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-06-22

---Logopened Tue Jun 22 00:00:39 2021
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03:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9394: Codechange: [OSX] Use more exact enum names where introduced with the 10.12 SDK. https://git.io/Jn1A7
03:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9394: Codechange: [OSX] Use more exact enum names where introduced with the 10.12 SDK. https://git.io/JnMeB
03:53<TrueBrain>it is in a MacOS section .. so the default: FUCK MACOS comment is implied :D :D :D :P
03:53<LordAro>lol
03:55<TrueBrain>I am just kidding ofc :)
04:19-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
04:28<@peter1138>How long until Apple remove OpenGL completely>?
04:41<TrueBrain>possibly? nevah :P
04:41<TrueBrain>but they will keep nagging us that we should for a long long long long long time
04:59<andythenorth>yo
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05:03<LordAro>it andy
05:06<andythenorth>goes it PatchPack?
05:06<andythenorth>terrible bleeding edge newgrf spec PatchPack?
05:07<LordAro>MiniIN when?
05:07<TrueBrain>history repeating itself, nice
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05:27<@peter1138>Oh god database design :(
05:29<@peter1138>I have a table of date ranges, and a value. I want to get the sum of values for a specific date... but I actually still need these sum values as nonoverlapping ranges. Hmm.
05:52<andythenorth>sounds like some business dashboard
05:52*andythenorth is the co-author of one of those
05:53<andythenorth>I avoided the date stuff and got the real programmers to do it
05:53<andythenorth>still we have bugs in it :P
05:53<andythenorth>'dates are hard'
05:53<andythenorth>hmm goes it automate github actions to publish a website?
05:53<andythenorth>can I be arsed?
05:55<andythenorth>fuck sakes
05:55<andythenorth>I often copy the grf docs to the dist folder not the src
05:55<andythenorth>then I run make
05:55<andythenorth>then the dist gets rmed and rebuilt
05:55<andythenorth>clown
05:56<andythenorth>this makefile is incredibly slow for something just do copy-tree and a tiny bit of templating
06:01<@peter1138>i got it working in t-sql
06:01<@peter1138>madness.
06:02<@peter1138>based on ... https://dba.stackexchange.com/a/236947
06:02<@peter1138>good ol copy & paste sites ;)
06:04<andythenorth>after the fastly outage, I added stack overflow to our list of engineering deps
06:04<andythenorth>no SO, might not be able to ship
06:05<andythenorth>ok so how do I tell GS things from grf?
06:06<andythenorth>I need to place industries in specific places
06:06<andythenorth>only GS can do that
06:06<andythenorth>but the GS doesn't know what the grf wants it to do
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06:16<Timberwolf>Partner brought coffee back from the coffee shop at the same time I made one.
06:16*Timberwolf double parked for coffee.
06:17<Timberwolf>Maybe if I gather enough barely-controlled nervous energy I might draw another boat.
06:17<Timberwolf>Currently averaging about 1 every 4 weeks.
06:18<andythenorth>I did 3 in a day
06:18<andythenorth>but it has taken 4 years to do 24
06:19<andythenorth>I could do the – views and you could transpose them to voxels :P
06:20<Timberwolf>Heh.
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06:26<Timberwolf>I'm mostly struggling to find good prototypes.
06:27<Timberwolf>The other day I gave serious consideration to using the boat from "The Life Aquatic With Steve Zissou"
06:29<Timberwolf>Actually, searching by shipping company seems to give nice lists of things within a category.
06:29<Timberwolf>e.g. Everards had lots of coastal freighters.
06:32<Timberwolf>There is still that issue the appearance and performance don't really change much, so the distinction between "1900 coastal freighter", "1930 coastal freighter", "1960 coastal freighter" and "1990 coastal freighter" is pretty meaningless in game terms.
06:32<Timberwolf>"meh, bump it up another couple of mph" level stuff.
06:37<andythenorth>the stats are almost zero progression
06:37<andythenorth>the hull shapes change quite a lot
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06:48<Samu>LordAro, AroAI comes up with "the index 'town' does not exist".
06:49<Samu>long standing bug
06:49<Samu>i can fix it locally but it's not the same thing, it's not a bananas release
06:50<LordAro>mm
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08:27-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.11.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
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08:34<Samu>im thinking of adding ship support to my AI, somehow
08:34<Samu>after all, I got a very nice ship pathfinder
08:35<Samu>just not sure how to "import" to it, make it fit with the existing code
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09:06<Samu>man, the 90 degrees curve penalty for ships really ruin the pathfinder
09:07<Samu>going from open sea to inland via canals, where 90 degrees are prevalent, just makes it somehow not find the target
09:07<Samu>ships get lost
09:08<+glx>check for missing locks
09:08<Samu>it's not that, the pathfinder finds a viable path
09:08<Samu>the one from my script, that is
09:08<Samu>then the other from openttd, makes the ship get lost
09:09<Samu>when i change pf.yapf.ship_curve90_penalty to 100, every ship finds its way
09:10<+glx>if there's only one possible path, penalty should not matter
09:12<@peter1138>Is it misdetecting 90 degree turns?
09:12<@peter1138>I'm not really sure how you are getting them.
09:12<@peter1138>90 degree turn for a ship should be when it stops and turns on the spot.
09:12<LordAro>i know that ships often display 'bogus' lost messages
09:12<LordAro>it's something to do with the path cache
09:13<@peter1138>A path along the canal shouldn't encounter any 90 degree turns.
09:13<Samu>the penalty being 600 makes it increase the number of nodes to search
09:13<Samu>since open sea is much vast with non-90 degrees, they're searched first
09:14<Samu>the 90 degrees are checked very late, or in most cases, past the max num of search nodes, making the ship be lost
09:14<@peter1138>LordAro, path cache just makes it pathfind less...
09:15<LordAro>i think it hits some sort of "ship hasn't done any pathfinding in a while" timeout
09:15<LordAro>or something
09:15<LordAro>it's definitely related
09:15<@peter1138>Hmm, in which it is definitely a bogus message.
09:16<@peter1138>Samu, but inland with canals isn't full of 90 degree turns.
09:16<@peter1138>it's 2 x 45 degree turns.
09:16<@peter1138>Unless it's not somehow :p
09:17<Samu>I see
09:17<Samu>there's still a few 90 degrees
09:17<@peter1138>I'm pretty sure ships use 6-way tracks, not 4-way tracks, as they do go diagonally.
09:18<Samu>a dock adjacent to a lock in paralel
09:19<Samu>docking area has a penalty too, doesn't it?
09:19<Samu>can't recall
09:19<@peter1138>Might be something to prefer using an empty dock.
09:19<@peter1138>Which is of course pretty pointless but.
09:20<@peter1138>Oh right, Debian 10.10 was released. Hmm.
09:20<@peter1138>If I was a good sysadmin I would 1) have known 2) wouldn't care because it would just be magic
09:22<Samu>find closest ship depot is also pretty meh
09:22<Samu>but that's ok
09:23<Samu>just gotta use go to depot order
09:29<@Rubidium>peter1138: 3) know that the point release is pretty pointless for security as everything security wise was already pushed via security.debian.org ;)
09:32<Samu>looks like i have to make use of buoys, as much as I wouldn't like to
09:37<@peter1138>LordAro, doesn't seem to be a timer on VF_PATHFINDER_LOST
09:39<LordAro>peter1138: no, it's not an actual timer
09:39<LordAro>i don't know any details, only that it appeared after path cache was added
09:40<@peter1138>Well, the thing is at about the same time the order distance limits were relaxed.
09:40<LordAro>mm, some of the constants could be interacting poorly
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09:41<@peter1138>I can see if it follows a cached path it will never set VF_PATHFINDER_LOST, but equally it will never unset VF_PATHFINDER_LOST. I don't know if it's possible to have a cached path in that case though.
09:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9391: Fix #9386: use variant instead of unique_ptr to prevent compilers failing on the code generation https://git.io/JnPSD
09:46<Samu>what i see, when ships have a sudden urge to go to a ship depot for service, they get a temporary ship is lost
09:46<Samu>if they're on a canal, single lane
09:46<Samu>and the depot is behind
09:47<Samu>the other ship is lost message is when they're just departing from a dock
09:47<Samu>having to make a 180 degree turn to find their way
10:02<@peter1138>Hmm, so it might be depot interaction?
10:02<Samu>ship 9: https://i.imgur.com/SzT2rGd.png
10:02<@peter1138>Should be simple to test, disable breakdowns and servicing and see if it stops...
10:03<Samu>it needs to go around the peninsula, then into land via canals
10:03<@peter1138>Also there is a way to allow docking on the side of docks.
10:04<Samu>maybe i should provide savegame
10:07<@peter1138>Multistop docks did originally allow docking at any tile adjacent to the dock, but... I added code to keep behaviour...
10:08<+glx>IIRC adjacent tiles are marked as dockable
10:09<@peter1138>Something in IsValidDockingDirectionForDock()
10:10<@peter1138>The first four zeros are the part on the slope, so all blocked.
10:11<@peter1138>if you make both the other 2 lines 15 (1 << for all) then you can dock on any side.
10:11<+glx>oh and only the end is allowed
10:13<Samu>where do I post the savegame?
10:13<@peter1138>In the mail.
10:16<Samu>do you have discord, seems i can share files there
10:19<Samu>hmm guess not
10:21<@peter1138>Who are you expecting to open your savegame?
10:21<Samu>someone to take a look at the ships becoming lost
10:21<+glx>most lost ship are false positive
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10:46<Samu>automatic service making lost ships, is just too funny :p
10:47<Samu>ok, i had a fix for this one
10:47<Samu>it's buried somewhere in a closed PR
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11:21<Samu>hmm
11:21<Samu>not sure if I open a new issue, or just add to existing one
11:21<Samu>the savegame
11:22<Samu>or just forget about the idea
11:24<Samu>there's actual solutions to the problems i found, like placing buoys
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11:24<Samu>setting pf.yapf.ship_curve90_penalty to 100
11:25<Samu>and using go to ship depot orders to prevent lost ships by automatic service
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12:14<@peter1138>Urgh, bootstrap 5 contains a lot of breaking changes :/
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13:07<andythenorth>it does?
13:07<andythenorth>I'm still on 3 everywhere
13:07<andythenorth>I want to go to 5, skipping 4
13:08<andythenorth>but waiting for IE 11 to die
13:08<andythenorth>Timberwolf new game for ships, try not to get lost in this https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-1.2/centery:50.9/zoom:7
13:09<+glx>oh it's https://www.flightradar24.com for ships
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13:10<andythenorth>yes
13:11<andythenorth>looks like my current ottd game
13:11<andythenorth>https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/853284744056799252/856944574882643968/unknown.png
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13:40<andythenorth>ok let's redesign FIRS
13:40<andythenorth>Again
13:43<andythenorth>ok town indexes, any surprises lurking?
13:44<andythenorth>if I want to declare 3 types of town, evenly distributed, can I call index.mod(3) or so
13:46<nielsm>towns very rarely get deleted but I guess a scenario made in the editor can have them in a weird distribution
13:46<andythenorth>this is all a bit of a hack
13:47<andythenorth>nobody is going to do anything about regions etc without a test case :)
13:47<+glx>even in a random game indexes are not in any order
13:47<andythenorth>the test case is very limited in what it can do because the spec for what I want is almost non-existent
13:47<andythenorth>but a test case is better than no test case
13:48<nielsm>glx: on the contrary, in a handmade scenario the towns are more likely to be in some kind of order
13:51<andythenorth>a grf callback on towns might be helpful, periodic / game start
13:51<andythenorth>for the purpose of managing register values
13:52*andythenorth thinking out loud
13:52<andythenorth>hmm
13:53<andythenorth>assuming towns want certain local industries supplied
13:53<andythenorth>how might a 'mining' town, an 'agricultural town' and a 'heavy industry town' vary in their wants?
13:54<andythenorth>ag town doesn't particularly want a power station, or lots of building materials?
13:55<andythenorth>hmm 'trading town' might also be a thing, for ports, and high value converting industries
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13:56<andythenorth>nah
13:58<@peter1138>Oh look, local install of Wordpress shat itself...
13:58<@peter1138>Seems like the default state.
13:59<andythenorth>it's banned on our prod
14:00<andythenorth>hmm is there some thing with some towns being cities?
14:01<andythenorth>how does that work?
14:01<andythenorth>what's this var 40 thing? https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Towns#Larger_town_effect_.2840.29
14:05<nielsm>sounds like a ttdpatch thing
14:06<andythenorth>is it the 'some towns are cities' thing maybe?
14:06<nielsm>maybe it means that in ottd, not sure
14:07<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/newgrf_town.cpp#L20-L24
14:07<andythenorth>hmm
14:08<nielsm>so yeah it's 1 if it's a "city" (i.e. doubled growth rate)
14:08<andythenorth>modulo 3 of the town index might not work
14:08<andythenorth>ok, so limiting town growth (in the house grf) can't rely just on the town index
14:08<andythenorth>because of this extra feature
14:08<andythenorth>always a new reason to prevent gameplay in mods
14:09<andythenorth>like...the game has just enough gameplay affecting flags that mods are fucked
14:10<andythenorth>I wanted to stop ag towns growing big
14:10<andythenorth>maybe there's some mathematical trick to redistribute
14:10<Timberwolf>andythenorth: cool, it has the Thames Clippers on it
14:10<andythenorth>does it have the DUKWs?
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14:11<andythenorth>hmm
14:11<andythenorth>what proportion of towns have this city flag?
14:12<andythenorth>oh it's a setting
14:13<andythenorth>can I read the setting though?
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14:13<andythenorth>seems not
14:13<andythenorth>oof
14:17<andythenorth>ok so if it's got the larger city flag it can't be mining or ag
14:18<andythenorth>but then I need a way to force some of the non-city towns to be mining or ag, to level the distribution
14:18<andythenorth>can I do this statistically somehow?
14:18<andythenorth>grf has no way to read the other towns on the map
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14:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Jnysw
14:55<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
15:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #9394: Codechange: [OSX] Use more exact enum names where introduced with the 10.12 SDK. https://git.io/JnXum
15:17<andythenorth>another michi_cc special :)
15:17<andythenorth>so good
15:27<@peter1138>Why does a label, in a form, need the class form-label, and an input, in a form, need the class form-control?
15:33<LordAro>bootstrap has always been a bit like that
15:39<andythenorth>it's bootstrap
15:39<andythenorth>it gives you explicit control
15:39<andythenorth>if it just magically restyled all the html elements, you wouldn't be able to style anything custom inside the form without nerfing all the bootstrap stuff first
15:40*andythenorth gave the sensible answer sorry
15:40<andythenorth>bad form
15:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9391: Fix #9386: use variant instead of unique_ptr to prevent compilers failing on the code generation https://git.io/JnPSD
16:04<@peter1138>Renamed .text-left and .text-right to .text-start and .text-end.
16:05<@peter1138>Hmm.
16:05<@peter1138>Maybe LTR/RTL?
16:11<andythenorth>I did a bootstrap 2to3 migration
16:11<andythenorth>mostly find and replace
16:12<andythenorth>although they also changed the format of the vars from camelCase to with-dashes
16:12<andythenorth>or something
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16:33<Borg>hello.
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16:42<LordAro>goodbye
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17:06<andythenorth>so if I place industries into 'types' of town
17:06<andythenorth>using modulo 3 of town index
17:06<andythenorth>and player has only 1 or 2 towns
17:07<andythenorth>broken
17:07<andythenorth>oof
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17:11*andythenorth wonders where the town list is
17:12<andythenorth>some kind of Town pool?
17:12<andythenorth>does a pool know how many items are in it?
17:12<+glx>yes
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17:15*andythenorth newgrf var for number of towns?
17:15<andythenorth>not sure what scope that var would have
17:15<andythenorth>it's map, we don't really have map scope
17:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9391: Fix #9386: use variant instead of unique_ptr to prevent compilers failing on the code generation https://git.io/JnyVX
17:16<andythenorth>global var?
17:17<andythenorth>is number of towns deterministic?
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19:09<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BrinzaBezrukoff commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
19:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Bohaska commented on issue #9277: Allow changing font-size in-game (and not only double or nothing) https://git.io/JslSd
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19:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BrinzaBezrukoff commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 23 00:00:40 2021