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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-06-25

---Logopened Fri Jun 25 00:00:43 2021
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03:35<andythenorth>errr
03:35<andythenorth>hmm
03:35<andythenorth>the 'only one town on the map' case could be solved by permitting all industries to locate in town 1, explicit ID check
03:36<andythenorth>it would have unwanted side effects on maps with more towns eh
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04:13<@peter1138>if (num_towns < 3) { special case }
04:29<andythenorth>yeah but that var isn't ;)
04:29<andythenorth>and can't be or something
04:30<andythenorth>but then again industries couldn't be more than 16 cargo in or out
04:31<@peter1138>Cool, WD My Book NASes doing factory resets, wiping the all the data, "by themselves"
04:38<LordAro>how nice of them
04:50<LordAro>https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/mass-data-wipe-in-my-book-devices-prompts-warning-from-western-digital/
04:52<LordAro>"We have determined that some My Book Live devices have been compromised by a threat actor. In some cases, this compromise has led to a factory reset that appears to erase all data on the device. The My Book Live device received its final firmware update in 2015."
04:52<LordAro>oh dear oh dear
04:54<@peter1138>CVE was opened in 2019, but it was EOL, so...
04:56<LordAro>which CVE?
04:58<andythenorth>anybody dare? https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/223
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05:03<@peter1138>https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2018-18472
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08:20<@orudge>Hmm, apparently my PC doesn't meet the minimum requirements for Windows 11
08:20<@orudge>The CPU does not appear to be on the supported list :|
08:20<TrueBrain>I love how the initial reply from WD is in the lines of: "this is not our fault! Hackers did this!" :P
08:21<@orudge>though it doesn't actually say what component isn't supported, which is helpful
08:21<TrueBrain>orudge: lol .. sounds about right :D
08:22<TrueBrain>orudge: the TPM2.0 seems to be a showstopper for a lot of people too
08:25<@orudge>Yes, it could be I have that disabled (or just not supported), I have no idea to be honest :p
08:25<TrueBrain>I also wouldn't have a clue if I have that or not :D
08:32<@peter1138>I found an option to enable Firmware TPM in UEFI, with that it's supported.
08:33<@peter1138>One of those options that defaults to disabled, and is pretty well hidden.
08:35<LordAro>not for long!
08:36<@peter1138>I don't really know what it allows, or who it is protecting...
08:40<LordAro>hardware level encryption, basically
08:40<LordAro>means that you can't just take the disk out and read it somewhere else
08:40<@orudge>Amazon is now of course sold out of Asus TPM chips!
08:40<@peter1138>Yea, except none of my disks are encrypted.
08:41<LordAro>mm, not clear why MS have decided to make this a requirement
08:41<LordAro>we encrypt everything at work, but i've never bothered at home
08:42<LordAro>(not least because the Dell TPM chips have a tendency to go walkabout and you need to completely unplug the computer to get it back
08:42<LordAro>)
08:44*andythenorth wonders how to make industry generation slow
08:45<andythenorth>or rather, what makes it so slow, so I can avoid it
08:45<@peter1138>Nice.
08:45<@peter1138>I remember with PCI-DSS it was simpler to just not encrypt drives, becuase the key management process required was just not supported by, e.g. LUKS.
08:46<@orudge>Well there we go, TPM enabled, shows up in Windows, but apparently my PC still doesn't meet the system requirements
08:46<@orudge>Meh
08:46<LordAro>peter1138: oh dear
08:47<@peter1138>Was that Amazon's 5 minute delivery, or you found the UEFI setting? :D
08:47<LordAro>our process for encrypting linux computers is a right pain
08:47<LordAro>doesn't do TPM, and remotely decrypting something is tricky
08:47<@peter1138>Key rotation, shared knowledge (no single-user, etc) was not really possible.
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08:48<LordAro>dropbear in initramfs works, but is very finicky with DNS and DHCP renewals and all that
08:48<@orudge>Turns out it is integrated in my motherboard after all
08:49<@peter1138>My PC is compatible.
08:49<@peter1138>Turns out Windows 10 has a memory protection feature that I can't enable because of drivers...
08:52<@peter1138>Isolated browsing in Edge. Who uses Edge?
08:53<LordAro>edge is nice now that it's actually chrome
08:53<LordAro>better than chrome, in several ways
08:53<andythenorth>nice to know I'm not the only one with linux encryption struggle bus
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08:54<andythenorth>encryption works fine, prod ops for it are ugh
08:54<TrueBrain>on a virtualization cluster, just use SAN encryption instead of trying to do it on OS level :P
08:54<TrueBrain>so much easier :D
08:54<+glx>I think my PC won't be compatible
08:54<+glx>no UEFI, no DX12 card
08:55<@peter1138>I appear to have acquired USB devices that all have original USB B-type connectors. Run out of cables (and ports)
08:55<+glx>unpopulated TPM header on motherboard
08:56<@peter1138>OpenTTD developer funds ;-)
08:58<+glx>wow it was fast, clicked on check button, immediate response you can't
08:58<@peter1138>Yes, it's pretty instant either way.
08:59<LordAro>no UEFI? how old is it? :p
08:59<+glx>oh funny on french page requirements are simpler, no UEFI nor TPM listed
08:59<LordAro>lol
09:00<andythenorth>TrueBrain that assumes a SAN :P
09:00<andythenorth>the prod ops to get to a SAN are....ugh
09:01<TrueBrain>andythenorth: a virtualization cluster without a SAN is not ... really a cluster of any kind
09:01<TrueBrain>the word "cluster" kinda demands a SAN :)
09:01<+glx>it's just 9 years old
09:01<LordAro>we just have a lot of very powerful desktops, no fancy virtualisation cluster here
09:01<andythenorth>https://simonkidd.blog/2010/08/12/if-i-were-you-i-wouldnt-start-from-here/
09:02<LordAro>they trip the breakers when there's a powercut and force us to unplug most of the office before it'll stay on again
09:02<andythenorth>TrueBrain that assumes a virtualisation cluster
09:02<TrueBrain>andythenorth: that is what my sentence said yes, very well read, well done sir
09:02<TrueBrain>:P
09:03<andythenorth>I refer you to the Irish joke
09:03<TrueBrain>"on a bike, you drive on 2 wheels" - "that assumes you use a bike"
09:03<TrueBrain>NO SHIT! Sometimes I am shocked by the level of intelligence :P
09:03<TrueBrain><3 :)
09:04<@peter1138>We have a SAN but it's massive, power-hungry, and the storage is something like 18TB over 48 drives. And the fibre switches are... meh.
09:04<andythenorth>"the way to solve your problem is to already have solved your problem"
09:05*andythenorth now using patched nml in patched openttd, with patched grfs
09:05<TrueBrain>yes, sorry andythenorth , we should all been solving your issue :P
09:05<TrueBrain>I forgot about that :D
09:05<TrueBrain>silly bean :)
09:05<andythenorth>thanks
09:05<@peter1138>Oh, not even that much space.
09:06<andythenorth>goes it new PP?
09:06<andythenorth>what shall I call it?
09:06<andythenorth>most likely it will be BrokenPP
09:06<andythenorth>or DesyncPP
09:06<@peter1138>Also the SAN requires Java 6 to manage it.
09:06<andythenorth>or NoSupportPP
09:06<TrueBrain>I once had a customer that refused to enable disk-encryption on their SAN as it increased the CPU usage on that SAN
09:06<TrueBrain>like .. what else is that CPU doing?
09:07<TrueBrain>but no, the CPU should stay below 10%
09:07<TrueBrain>because of "reasons"
09:07<TrueBrain>people are funny sometimes
09:07<andythenorth>would limit the coin miner though
09:07<@peter1138>probably affects IO latency
09:07<TrueBrain>peter1138: 100% it does, yes
09:07<TrueBrain>nothing probable about that :P
09:08<andythenorth>I have a new Jesus Phone
09:08<andythenorth>it has no obvious on button
09:08<andythenorth>you sort of lift it up to your face and it turns on
09:08<andythenorth>except it isn't
09:08<andythenorth>oh now it did
09:08<andythenorth>GG Apple
09:09<andythenorth>it is a Mini
09:09<andythenorth>which apparently nobody else will dare buy in case they got mocked for Small Hands meme
09:09<andythenorth>by mean tech bloggers and people on reddit
09:10*andythenorth must to chores
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09:11<TrueBrain>lol, the PC Health thingy claims my PC can't run Win11 either .. pretty sure that is a lie :D
09:11<TrueBrain>but yeah, TPM is most likely not enabled :P
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09:16<TrueBrain>yeah, enabling it makes it go all green on me
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09:43<TrueBrain>michi_cc: do you happen to see a way to prevent us bumping MacOS to at least 10.14 with https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/9391 ? Or is it in your opinion fine to do so? (sorry, you are our in-house MacOS expert :P)
09:43<TrueBrain>10.13 was EOL last November, so from our "we support what-ever the OS vendor is supporting" argument we are fine .. but Steam supports 10.11+ .. which made me prompt this question :D
09:55<+glx>I don't know if the minimum version is to build or to run, as the issue is with std::variant
09:57<LordAro>make our own std::variant!
10:04<+glx>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52310835/xcode-10-call-to-unavailable-function-stdvisit/53868971 <-- seems some workarounds exist
10:33<TrueBrain>glx: it is to run
10:33<TrueBrain>and the issue is with std::visit, a missing exception
10:33<TrueBrain>there are workarounds, but that is a lot of effort and really hard to test for us
10:47<@orudge>Mojave (10.14) seems a reasonable baseline from an end user point of view, to me
10:57<andythenorth>lol
10:57<andythenorth>every test of industry -> town storage
10:57<andythenorth>so far
10:57<andythenorth>concludes that I'm better off just using an existing var
10:58*andythenorth needs to try harder
11:23<@peter1138>It's nearly payday and I don't need a 3D printer but do I want one?
11:24<TrueBrain>Yes
11:24<TrueBrain>The amount of shit I printed over the last 2 years .. everyone should have one :p
11:24<@peter1138>Oh no. I'd have to research what to buy...
11:25<TrueBrain>I am biased btw .. turns out I am pretty decent in making 3D designs for stuff
11:25<TrueBrain>so if something breaks these days .. I print a replacement part :P
11:25<TrueBrain>doesn't work well for a girlfriend btw, expensive print
11:25<TrueBrain>what-ever you buy, you will spend a few more on upgrades, as very soon you are annoyed by the lack of NNN
11:26<TrueBrain>I started with a sticky bed, but upgraded to a glass one real quick
11:26<TrueBrain>can't believe I tried a non-glass bed first ..
11:26<TrueBrain>they are the worst
11:26<+glx>heated or not ?
11:26<TrueBrain>ofc
11:26<TrueBrain>that is the whole point of a glass bed in my book :P
11:26<TrueBrain>similar with the firmware ... keep it stock? Fuck no
11:27<TrueBrain>upgraded within a month
11:27<TrueBrain>"I don't need a raspberry pi to control the printer"
11:27<TrueBrain>fuck yes you do
11:27<TrueBrain>printing is 1000x easier with it
11:27<TrueBrain>"what use is a webcam?!" .. well .. without it printing is dreadful
11:27<+glx>not requiring a connection to PC is vital too
11:28<TrueBrain>"1 PLA is enough to test this stuff with" .. few weeks later .. I have a shit ton of PLA, PLEG .. still no ABS, I don't want to try that :D
11:28<TrueBrain>so yeah ... make sure to reserve some time too peter1138 , not just money :P
11:29<+glx>oh and a room where noise doesn't matter ;)
11:29<TrueBrain>or ... buy better controllers that make less noise :P
11:29<TrueBrain>but yeah .. it is an annoying sound after a while
11:29<TrueBrain>especially if you start 1+ hour prints :D
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11:30<TrueBrain>worst part of most stock printers, they do not have diodes between the stepper motors and the controller
11:30<TrueBrain>meaning that if you move the bed back and forth, the controller powers up
11:30<TrueBrain>which is hilarious, but also really bad
11:30<andythenorth>3D printers sound like fish tanks
11:30<TrueBrain>pretty much so
11:30<andythenorth>there's always another thing to buy
11:31<andythenorth>and they require consumables
11:31<TrueBrain>in the end I bought a pretty cheap Ender 3 .. and upgraded it far beyond its initial cost :P
11:31<andythenorth>so should I allow EAF in BOF towns?
11:31*andythenorth steel industry
11:31<+glx>probably still less than buying something fully upgraded
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11:31<andythenorth>town radius ain't so big on a lot of maps
11:31<andythenorth>it would be good to be able to agglomerate neighbouring towns
11:32<andythenorth>so I could create, e.g. a region
11:32<andythenorth>on request
11:32<andythenorth>"give me the map in regions of [3] neighbouring towns"
11:32<andythenorth>"give me the map in regions of [7] neighbouring towns"
11:33<andythenorth>each region gets an index
11:33<andythenorth>each region gets some perm storage
11:33<andythenorth>but multiple layers of regions can be defined for different purposes
11:34<+glx>stop trying to do GS in newgrf :)
11:35<andythenorth>stop trying to do the economy in GS, it can't do it :P
11:35<andythenorth>repeat that conversation for last 10 years
11:35*andythenorth got bored of that conversation, is now just doing GS in newgrf
11:38<andythenorth>current problem: I have defined 'keystone' industries, which are a critical part of [some chain]
11:38<andythenorth>and the other industries won't build in a town without the keystone
11:38<andythenorth>the keystone sets a flag in a town register when built
11:38<andythenorth>the others read it
11:39<andythenorth>then I allowed two different keystones into a town :P
11:39*andythenorth poor life choices
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12:00<Taschi>huh, i thought i might try and fix #9396 but apparently glx already did
12:00<+glx>yeah I had an idea, so I tried :)
12:02<Taschi>i guess my PR and yours are going to clash, tho
12:02<Taschi>we both touched line 1401ff. in openttd.cpp
12:02<+glx>yeah they are on the same area so conflicts are expected
12:02<Taschi>shouldn't be too hard to merge them
12:03<Taschi>but it will require an additional commit
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12:22<LordAro>we prefer rebasing to merge commits
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12:36<Taschi>either way manual code changes will be required because glx changed a bit from openttd.cpp which i refactored into another file entirely
12:37<LordAro>not a problem, we're quite able to deal with conflicts :p
12:37<LordAro>well, glx is anyway
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12:38<Taschi>ngl, if making toast was as hard as soldering i'd have starved ages ago
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13:52<Samu>the amount of code i have just for removing a single canal tile
13:53<Samu>checking if that would block connections
14:00<@peter1138>Why not just not remove a canal tile?
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14:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JnxNv
14:51<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
15:00<Taschi>so i'm kind of lost on what i could do next, now that glx has rudely stolen my ticket from me
15:01<Taschi>i'd be grateful for suggestions
15:02<Taschi>(tho i'll probably spend the weekend with a mix of bike trips and being too exhausted to think straight)
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15:04<FLHerne>Taschi: read through andy's complaints about newgrf spec and figure out if any are actionable :p
15:04<FLHerne>but that way lies only madness
15:05<FLHerne>Various annoyances with road vehicle overtaking?
15:06<FLHerne>9033, 9236, the issue that articulated vehicles can't overtake at all
15:06<Taschi>i've never done anything with NewGRF aside from downloading and playing with them, so I'm probably bad at identifying pain points with that specific API
15:06<FLHerne>which is so longstanding that there isn't even an issue open for it :p
15:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave https://git.io/Jnxpt
15:08<FLHerne>On the netsave front, there's also https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8887
15:09<FLHerne>which is mitigated by rotating netsaves, but seems independent from it
15:10<Taschi>yeah, i saw that... question is, is there an easy way to identify if the current game is the title game?
15:10<+glx>maybe game mode
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15:10<+glx>but not sure at all
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15:10<Taschi>the netsave rotation thing definitely means #8887 will mostly be harmless
15:11<Taschi>btw i've seen your review comments, will try to fix them tomorrow
15:13<Taschi>tbh i'm still trying to figure out what pointers and references really are, most my experience is in Java where pointers don't really exist
15:13<Taschi>*most of
15:14<Taschi>and i'm mostly here because at work i occasionally spend an entire week troubleshooting problems with my IDE and i thought actually writing code might be nice
15:17<Taschi>btw, do you have any code style/formatting validator like Checkstyle or Sonarqube?
15:18<+glx>no, and I'm always fighting with MSVC on some format :)
15:21<Taschi>eh, the "else on newline" thing you pointed out is actually exactly what we do at work in Java so i should be able to remember it
15:21<Taschi>emphasis on "should"
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15:53<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: As I don't really use OSX, I wouldn't mind either way :) I would somewhat mind newer than 10.14, as 10.15+ (11) runs noticeably choppier in VMware.
15:53<TrueBrain>michi_cc: haha, I have the same, yes :P
15:53<TrueBrain>well, I guess we will just merge that PR in that case, as nobody seems to object :P
15:53<TrueBrain>well, still needs a review, but I will do that tomorrow
15:54<+michi_cc>I haven't look if std::visit is something 3rdparty-able.
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15:59<TrueBrain>well, we can just merge this PR, and look at those things later if people complain, I guess
16:01<+michi_cc>JGR has patched for the std::optional (C++17) on OSX, so we can just wait to see which solutions appears in JGRPP :D
16:02<+michi_cc>I mean the compile time SDK/XCode dependency, not some runtime dependency.
16:02<TrueBrain>nice
16:03<+michi_cc>Well, I think he just undid our de-vendoring of 3rdparty optional, but I infer from this that he might do something about 10.14+ :D
16:04<+glx>our main issue with std::variant is runtime dependency
16:05<+glx>for compile we are on 10.15 anyway
16:05<+michi_cc>I know, I'm just arguing tongue-in-cheek that we can outsource that to JGR.
16:05<TrueBrain>glx: huh? I think both me and michi_cc compile on 10.14 :P
16:06<+michi_cc>It was snails 10.12 XCode that is too old to compile master.
16:06<+glx>anyway we still have 10.12 users (remember all the crash reports)
16:08<+glx>and apple uses a weird clang versioning :)
16:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 commented on pull request #9397: Feature: Persistant rotation of numbered autosave after restart https://git.io/JnpIx
16:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 commented on pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave https://git.io/JnpLv
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16:43<Samu>i'm questioning this line https://github.com/SamuXarick/Canal-Pathfinder/blob/45173ef00f27702104cffc100482941287fc7c34/library/Pathfinder.Canal/main.nut#L866-L878
16:44<Samu>for visualization, these are the tiles https://i.imgur.com/teMOL26.png
16:44<Samu>especially, line 867
16:46<Samu>if there is a connection between t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn via t_mp, why do I care if there is a connection between t_mp and t_2mp
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16:48<Samu>i made this code last year, i can't remember why I did the check like that
16:48<Samu>but today, on reviewing it, that line 867 intrigues me
16:48<+glx>visually I'm not sur it's possible to connect t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn via t_mp
16:50<Samu>i'm trying to check if there is still a connection between t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn if t_mp is not available
16:50<Samu>in the picture, a lock blocks the connection, and i wanna check if there's an alternative connection
16:52<Samu>the lock doesn't actually exist yet
16:53<Samu>it is planned there
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16:54<Samu>a better pic: https://i.imgur.com/ypppuRv.png
16:56<Samu>the planned lock, if it's built: https://i.imgur.com/iGSsBuD.png
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16:57<+glx>I think t_mp-t_2mp check is useless here
16:58<Samu>that's what I think too now, if only i could remember what i was thinking last year :(
16:58<+glx>but it's an easy shortcut
16:59<+glx>if there's no link between mp and 2mp no need to check the other tiles
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