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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-06-27

---Logopened Sun Jun 27 00:00:46 2021
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00:30<Kitrana>what changed with inflation?
00:43<Eddi|zuHause>Kitrana: base year is always 1920 now, instead of game start year
00:46<Eddi|zuHause>this is meant to solve two game balance problems: if you start in 1700, the game becomes unplayable by the time you reach 1850, and if you start in 2050 everything is trivally cheap
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01:14<LordAro>(also, the answer is no, you can't switch back)
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04:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 updated pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave
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04:38<TrueBrain>I got an email with the subject saying: ":SPAM: NOT SPAM REPLY IF YOU RE STILL ALIVE"
04:38<TrueBrain>and guess what .. it is spam :P
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06:21<andythenorth>TrueBrain going to play MP OpenTTD? o_O
06:22<TrueBrain>what gave you that illusion?
06:22<andythenorth>I smoked crack
06:22<TrueBrain>can I have some?
06:22<andythenorth>we are about to start a game :P
06:22<andythenorth>7 years
06:23<TrueBrain>enjoy :D
06:25<Samu>my code detecting ships going up or down in a lock considers it a jam
06:27<Samu>moves at 0 km/h
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08:15<Samu>arf.... go to nearest ship depot
08:19<Samu>holy crap, i rebased through 1246 commits and no conflits found!
08:20<Samu>very fishy...
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08:52<Samu>i'd like this to be a reality
08:59<Samu>it would save my AI a lot of code
09:00<Samu>if the game actually found reachable ship depots
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09:41<Samu>ships have an issue: they tend to stack on each other when not using full loading
09:42<Samu>the way cargo is moved from stations to ships makes that a tendency
09:43<Samu>if there's only 1 dock, there should be only 1 cargo movement at a time
09:43<+glx>if it was the only issue :)
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09:51<Samu>wow, i tried founding a town, and game crashed
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09:57<Samu>weird crash
10:00<Samu>return __builtin_strlen(_First);
10:00<Samu>_First is null
10:00<Samu>and crashes
10:00<Samu>access violation c05
10:05<Samu>const char *name = nullptr;
10:05<Samu>name is null
10:05<Samu>std:string doesn't like nullptr?
10:15<Samu>hmmm i can't submit a crash report
10:15<Samu>requires crash files, which i dont have
10:16<+glx>std::string can't be null
10:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
10:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
10:19<andythenorth>anybody want to? :) Then I can add the docs for it
10:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
10:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
10:31<Samu>name == nullptr ? "" : name
10:31<Samu>good fix?
10:43<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Can't convert nullptr to std::string
10:44<+glx>and there maybe more hidden nullptr to string, but hard to check all DoCommand
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10:52<Samu>I see
10:52<+glx>oh I found another one
10:53<TrueBrain>glx: maybe change the commit message :D
10:53<TrueBrain>that is not saying an awful lot :P
10:54<+glx>ah no false alarm, script DoCommand still uses const char * and it's safely converted
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11:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Can't convert nullptr to std::string
11:05<+glx>better ?
11:05<+glx>and I think I checked all calls
11:05<TrueBrain>we said that 3 times already :P
11:06<TrueBrain>anyway, commit message is better .. personally I like the style of: Fix: crash when funding town using default name
11:06<TrueBrain>but at least now it is clear what was fixed :P
11:06<TrueBrain>as sure you didn't fix that we now can convert nullptr to std::string :P
11:07<TrueBrain>(which you originally commit message basically said :D)
11:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Don't pass nullptr to fund town using default name
11:08<Samu>what should be the commit message for 9401?
11:08<Samu>looks ugly
11:09<+glx>you don't have to change it Samu, it can be done on merge :)
11:09<Samu>ok, thanks
11:11<Samu>it's founding, not funding
11:16<+glx>nice, communication issues between runners and github it seems
11:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9403: Fix #9402, 2e136285: Don't pass nullptr to fund town using default name
11:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9402: [Crash]: Founding a town
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13:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
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14:11<LordAro>tempted to add "needs motivation" label to #9322 :p
14:11<LordAro>i am massively -1 to sqlite saves
14:11<LordAro>massively unnecessary
14:11<TrueBrain>LordAro: I am also not sure about sqlite, but frosch really wants it :P
14:12<TrueBrain>so I don't mind exploring it
14:12<TrueBrain>sounds like a fun project
14:12<TrueBrain>but don't say there is no motivation in 9322, as that is bullshit ;)
14:12<LordAro>i see no advantages, other than "mildly more readable outside of OTTD"
14:12<_dp_>to me 9322 looks very much like a solution looking for a problem
14:13<TrueBrain>LordAro: it uncouples savegame from internal ordering .. basically finally allowing some code cleanups to happen :D
14:15<LordAro>well, that's another matter
14:15<LordAro>be nice if you could mention some of them in the PR though
14:15<TrueBrain>it is literally the first point?
14:15<LordAro>(you may already have done, been a while since i actually looked at the PR text)
14:15<TrueBrain>yeah .. please read first ;)
14:15<LordAro>(i just looked at the email)
14:18<TrueBrain>as it goes with these kind of emails, they are heavily biased towards some details of the whole :) Better make your own opinion first ;)
14:18<Xaroth>I'm +1 for cleaning up the codebase
14:18<Xaroth>pardon my french, but some parts are terrible to work with.
14:19<_dp_>I wouldn't exactly call +3351 -775 "cleaning up the codebase" ;p
14:19<Xaroth>how are +/- stats ever an indication for cleanliness?
14:19<TrueBrain>taking things out of context is an art ;)
14:20<_dp_>stats are whatever, point is, it's not just cleaning, it's an addition of stuff in the name of cleaning
14:20<Xaroth>Is it?
14:20<_dp_>if goal was just cleaning I'm pretty sure there are simpler solutions
14:21<Xaroth>from what I can understand from the code it doesn't actually introduce anything that's not discussed in the PR.
14:23<Xaroth>Code cleanliness has 0 to do with the LoC your codebase has, it's about creating maintainable code that's easy (in context) to work with
14:23<Xaroth>Sometimes that means writing less code, sometimes it means writing a lot more code
14:28<_dp_>without specificts it's just empty words
14:28<_dp_>and I don't see any in the pr
14:29<_dp_>I can probably guess some if it... like renaming settings doesn't seem to be a noop like it was before
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14:30<Xaroth>At that point I'd say check the code, see what it does, and if that raises questions, ask them
14:30<Xaroth>that's what I do
14:32<_dp_>that's a lot of code to check...
14:32<_dp_>which already says something about "cleanup"
14:33<_dp_>anyway, simple question, if that's a "cleanup" why can't it all work without changing the format like it does with old savegame versions?
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14:33<_dp_>just via "compat" tables that it already added?
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14:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
14:50<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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15:34<+glx>and we have a successful nightly build
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15:42<TrueBrain>glx: \o/
15:42<TrueBrain>finally :D
15:43<+glx>small issue, macos version is 10.4+
15:44<TrueBrain>10.14+ :P
15:44<+glx>ha yes
15:45<+glx>I wonder if we'll get bug reports about that :)
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15:48<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
15:48<TrueBrain>glx: me too :)
15:49<TrueBrain>LordAro: maybe this email helps you with some context :)
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17:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
17:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
17:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
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18:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9322: Feature: store table headers for each chunk in savegame
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18:26<TrueBrain>what is the insanity about UFOs lately? I think I missed something somewhere ..
18:27<+glx>declassified data
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>lots of nonsense
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>lots of "well, we can't explain it. doesn't mean it's UFOs, but we can't say it's not UFOs"
18:28<+glx>lots of way too blury images
18:29<FLHerne>TrueBrain: > "none of it can ever be undone" is a weird statement. It is as much true as saying that the feature which allows towns to build tunnels cannot be undone. That is just being scared of the future.
18:29<FLHerne>I think the distinction is that there's a precedent for changing [mis-]features
18:29<TrueBrain>glx: ah! Yeah .. okay, that stuff :)
18:29<FLHerne>e.g. the controversial inflation thing
18:30<FLHerne>You can always delete the town-tunnel-building code again
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18:30<+glx>anything is revertable with more or less work
18:30<FLHerne>but savegame back-compat is a hard requirement, so you can't really "get rid of" a chunk type ever
18:31<TrueBrain>FLHerne: fair point. Still not an issue, but that slightly changes the argument indeed :)
18:31<FLHerne>Once it's in, every future version has to support it
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's why we have afterload.cpp
18:31<TrueBrain>as "reverting" in this case means "skip the header", which is length-prefixed
18:31<FLHerne>I think that's the root of glx's argument; see also "Yes, this PR creates 2 new chunk types, but this PR also removes the usage of 2 others."
18:31<TrueBrain>so even if it comes to that, keeping that code around would be very minimal :P
18:31<+glx>but unification of chunk types themselves is not a bad change
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>lots of stuff like shifting back and forth PBS bits is still buried in there
18:32<FLHerne>It can't really remove them (and nor can any other tool that wants to parse OTTD savegames) because they still exist in all the old ones
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that code part is very contained.
18:33<+glx>worse case would be to have to skip headers on load
18:33<TrueBrain>FLHerne: tnx, updated the comment :)
18:34<+glx>but the data chunk themselves will still be valid
18:34<TrueBrain>I did not consider that comment in that light, so tnx :D
18:34<TrueBrain>we really debate an addition of a header here :P Nothing is removed, reshuffled, etc .. just adding a header. That is it.
18:34<TrueBrain>I wish I could convey the simplicity of this PR more :P
18:35<+glx>anyway changing chunk type is not a first in openttd history
18:35<TrueBrain>the ones that came before this to make everything a CH_ARRAY on the other hand ... uuggggghhhhhhhh, that was shit to write :P
18:35<TrueBrain>CH_RIFF has a lovely "old" issue ... where 4 bits of the type are part of the length ... that is ... shit :P
18:35<+glx>and I really think it's a nice improvement to unify that
18:35<FLHerne>er, sorry, *of _dp_'s argument
18:35<TrueBrain>FLHerne: I understood :D
18:36<TrueBrain>it is still an expression of "scared for the future" in my book btw
18:37<TrueBrain>you have to consider the way back, sure, but it shouldn't hold you back going forward :)
18:37<TrueBrain>but okay, it was just 7 words in a whole reply :)
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18:37<TrueBrain>FLHerne: if there is anything I missed / misunderstood, let me know .. hard for me too to keep a fair view in this story :P
18:37<+glx>headers are just a little change on top of the unification
18:38<TrueBrain>I am pretty proud on how simple it became :D
18:38<TrueBrain>the settings-chunk-only change was ... shittier :P
18:39<+glx>and unification is already merged :)
18:39<TrueBrain>yeah, but that was long overdue anyway
18:39<TrueBrain>it was so random, how chunks did stuff ..
18:39<TrueBrain>even those in the end only add length-fields in certain places
18:40<+glx>so the most breaking change is no longer part of that PR ;)
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18:40<TrueBrain>haha, I guess that is a fair statement
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18:40<TrueBrain>unintentional, but fair
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18:43<TrueBrain>but yeah, those PRs reduces the 17 years of technical debt in saveload stuff every so slightly :D
18:43<TrueBrain>two places that still need addressing .. AI and GS saveload blob
18:43<TrueBrain>that is yet-another-hack
18:44<_dp_>what's the "unification" pr you're talking about?
18:44<+glx>CH_RIFF to CH_ARRAY
18:45<TrueBrain>bah, you are quicker
18:47<TrueBrain> is a similar PR, in case you missed it :)
18:47<TrueBrain>more cool: GitHub now tells the title of PRs inline
18:47<TrueBrain>that looks awesome
18:48<TrueBrain>I do wonder why it does it twice, but not thrice?
18:51<TrueBrain>ah, only if it is used in a list
18:51<TrueBrain>that is a weird condition
18:54<TrueBrain>glx: btw, I did some simple greps on all AIs; I could find 4 that forgot "," in parameters
18:54<TrueBrain>but it is really difficult to grep for it
18:54<TrueBrain>so I know at least 4 AIs are affected .. :P
18:54<TrueBrain>3 of those only had it for 1 or 2 versions
18:54<TrueBrain>only 1 had it consistent wrong in a single line
18:55<+glx>I think some ludiaiaftefix are concerned, as samu noticed the issue
18:55<TrueBrain>too bad it is just not worth the effort to add compat code for it :P
18:55<TrueBrain>it did make me wonder if we shouldn't just upgrade to squirrel3
18:56<TrueBrain>but then I realised how much shit we changed to Squirrel
18:56<TrueBrain>so I put that idea in a box, closed it, put some weights on it, dropped it in the ocean, and blew up the planet it was on
18:56<TrueBrain>wasn't earth, as it turns out
18:56<+glx>would be worse, as a lot of squirrel 3 is not compatible with squirrel 2
18:56<TrueBrain>yeah, but if we would have compat modes
18:56<TrueBrain>that would be "okay"
18:56<TrueBrain>would mean 2 squirrels embedded in OpenTTD :P
18:56<TrueBrain>so maybe not :D
18:57<FLHerne>But then you're not upgrading, you just have both
18:57<FLHerne>yeah, that
18:58<TrueBrain>as I said .. put it in a box ..... ;)
18:58<TrueBrain>glx: for 9401, something like "Fix ea9715d: not all setting values were clamped properly" ?
18:58<+glx>seems better yes
18:58<TrueBrain>FLHerne: this was one of those rare moments you realise you have a shit idea :P
18:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9401: Fix ea9715d: clamping was ignored for setting values
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19:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9397: Feature: Persistant rotation of numbered autosave after restart
19:04<TrueBrain>glx: PR looks good, but I think we should allow the other to merge in first, to not make a new contributor's life more difficult then we have to :P
19:04<+glx>yeah that was my idea too
19:05<TrueBrain>prefix is a nice addition in your function btw
19:05<TrueBrain>could be useful to do similar stuff with 9395 .. but maybe after it is merged :)
19:06<+glx>yeah the prefix can remove the need for bool
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19:06<+glx>just unconditionally prefix all "keep" save too
19:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window
19:07<TrueBrain>makes it cleaner, I think
19:07<TrueBrain>but maybe something for your PR after the other one ;)
19:07<TrueBrain>damn, #9376 is small
19:07<TrueBrain>I expected more code for some reason
19:08<TrueBrain>I like that peter1138 made alignment this easy .. that is nice :D
19:08<_dp_>nah, 9322 is still the worst
19:08<_dp_>9374 is kinda annoying but at least I see the point
19:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9368: Codechange: Remove last FOR_XXX macros
19:15<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9105: Improve server logs for administration
19:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8845: Feature: zstandard compression for network games
19:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8845: Feature: zstandard compression for network games
19:24<TrueBrain>FLHerne: <- what do you think .. I am tempted to close it, as I somehow doubt we get enough consensus on what is "proper English" here :P And just close this book for now :)
19:30<+glx>intellisense is annoying, just cause the function do disappear
19:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9191: Codechange: Disable pointer locking by default
19:31<TrueBrain>really? I wouldn't expect that ..
19:32<TrueBrain>use VSCode :P
19:32<TrueBrain>:D :D :D
19:32<+glx>VSCode uses intellisense too IIRC
19:32<TrueBrain>doesn't collapse stuff by default
19:32<TrueBrain>and does those things correctly for me
19:32<TrueBrain>it darkens one of the two branches
19:33<+glx>when I mean disappear, it's in the quick access function list
19:33<+glx>folding/unfolding works fine
19:33<TrueBrain> <- I like this view :)
19:34<TrueBrain>I still care about both lines, but I see what will be compiled in
19:34<TrueBrain>I don't deal well with folding of code :P
19:34<TrueBrain>bah, out of shit to close in terms of PRs
19:34<TrueBrain>time for zzz
19:47<FLHerne>TrueBrain: personally I really like that PR, at least in principle
19:47<FLHerne>but I do have doubts if we can ever reach a consensus before everyone involved burns out
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22:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on pull request #9191: Codechange: Disable pointer locking by default
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 28 00:00:47 2021