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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-07-01

---Logopened Thu Jul 01 00:00:51 2021
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06:39<Samu>hi
06:43<Samu>i can't figure out the code for buoys
06:44<Samu>i'm trying to make my ai use buoy orders
06:44<Samu>i already place buoys correctly and in order on an array of tiles
06:44<Samu>however, the ship depot is in the middle of the route
06:45<@peter1138>That's a lot of matrix users gone...
06:45<Samu>the ship starts from the ship depot and has to go to the correct buoys going towards it's first dock
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06:48<Samu>depot > buoys segment 1 > first dock > reverse buoys segment 1 > depot > reverse buoys segment 2 > second dock > buoys segment 2
06:53<Samu>i realized i can't use distance manhattan
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06:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on pull request #9405: Reduce allocations in string handling https://git.io/JcCfE
06:57<Samu>the problem is knowing where to start at the correct index of the array of buoys and where to end
06:58<Samu>the array doesn't include the ship depot
07:00<@peter1138>When your Excel export goes up to column FK there might be a few too many fields...
07:01<@peter1138>Why not include it?
07:07<Samu>i guess i should include ship depot
07:07<Samu>its not a real buoy though
07:18<LordAro>i'm a real boy!
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08:22<TrueBrain>LordAro: pictures or it didn't happen
08:22<TrueBrain>wait, no
08:22<TrueBrain>no nooooo
08:22<TrueBrain>NOOOO
08:23<LordAro>;_;
08:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcCcr
08:28<TrueBrain>ugh, more mobile-app spam in info@ mailbox
08:28<TrueBrain>and a voicemail! But I leave that to orudge :)
08:32<TrueBrain>right, 2 relative large PRs to review .. maybe I should stop producing PRs for a bit :P
08:32<TrueBrain>we need people to review >:D
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08:42<TrueBrain>peter1138: they are back ...
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08:44<TrueBrain>3 hour downtime on the bridge :P
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09:18<@peter1138>TrueBrain, rare.
09:26<TrueBrain>I rather have it well done ;)
09:47<Samu>got buoys working now! so happy
09:47<Samu>the trick was indeed to add the ship depot in buoy array
09:48<Samu>now my next issue is... how to send ships to depot
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09:49<Samu>because openttd's own 'send to depot' sucks
09:49<Samu>i have to babysit the ship
09:53<Samu>so i have a ship happily doing its business, following orders, following buoys, and suddenly I decide i have to sell the ship, just like that, at any moment of its schedule
09:53<Samu>i can't use SendVehicleToDepot
09:54<Samu>i have to unshare orders
09:55<Samu>i have to delete conditional orders
09:55<Samu>i have to delete go to dock orders probably
09:55<Samu>all that remains are buoy orders and service at depot
09:56<Samu>turn the service to depot as go to depot and stop there
10:34<Samu>unsharing orders doesn't retain the order list
10:34<Samu>:(
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10:37<LordAro>that feels like a bug
10:39<Samu>orders are retained for players
10:39<Samu>not for ais, but just in case im wrong, let me test this
10:40<Samu>https://docs.openttd.org/ai-api/classAIOrder.html#a2b2c000cd8c8ce03e546c0c0bbce7fd3
10:41<Samu>I wish there was an option to retain or not retain orders
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11:12<Samu>wow, seems easy to implement, at first glance
11:16<Samu>or maybe not even needed
11:16<Samu>i use Copy Orders
11:16<Samu>which will "unshare"
11:17<Samu>but retain a copy of the orders
11:23<Samu>uh, how do i "Get another vehicle that share orders with this vehicle." via current AI API
11:32<nielsm>https://docs.openttd.org/ai-api/classAIVehicleList__SharedOrders.html
11:40<LordAro>if nothing else, sounds like documentation could be improved
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11:59<Samu>nice
12:06<+glx>if you want to unshare but keep orders, I think you can ResolveOrderPosition(), get a vehicle sharing orders, UnshareOrders(), CopyOrders() from the other vehicle, and finally SkipToOrder()
12:11<Samu>im testing whether copy orders overwrite share orders
12:12<Samu>the same way it does in gui
12:19<+glx>copy should do the same as unsharing in gui
12:21<+glx>the same command is used in OrdersWindow::OrderClick_StopSharing() and ScriptOrder::CopyOrders()
12:29<Samu>it works!
12:30<Samu>just tested
12:30<Samu>awesome stuff
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12:59<Samu>i should consider buoy re-use
12:59<Samu>multiple routes sharing some of the buoys
12:59<Samu>but then i won't be able to close routes and delete their buoys
13:02<Samu>new big test! 2048x2048 map, 5000 ships hopefully
13:02<Samu>i expect no lost ship
13:03<+glx>for each buoy you can keep a list of routes
13:04<+glx>or, if you can search in all routes if the buoy is used when closing a route
13:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
13:12<Samu>but if there's multiple AIs running, i can't know
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13:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcWco
13:51<+glx><Samu> but if there's multiple AIs running, i can't know <-- on buoy deletion, there's a check for usage by other companies, disallowing deletion
13:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcW8u
13:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcW8P
14:00<+glx>so with AIVehicleList_Station() you can easily check if you still use the buoy, then try to delete it to find if others are using it
14:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcWRG
14:11<TrueBrain>nielsm: it would be fun if people would try that :D
14:11<TrueBrain>think the main question is: can we write comments in those ini-files ..
14:11<nielsm>it's as useful as trying trying to hack 127.0.0.1
14:12<TrueBrain>seems it can write a comment at the end of the file .. not super useful for this use case :D
14:12<nielsm>it's really more about being ahead of people who will write confused messages about "are you sure this file should be here? it contains your secret data"
14:12<nielsm>i.e. support burden
14:12<TrueBrain>I do not think anyone is going to be confused to think it would be OUR secrets .. as a look in the file makes that clear
14:12<TrueBrain>but I do think you have a very good point that what that file is
14:12<TrueBrain>is a good idea
14:13<TrueBrain>just to hint people not sharing it with others
14:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcWRx
14:14<TrueBrain>+adding, in one of those sentences :P
14:15<nielsm>"This file contains the encryption keys that make sure other players can't pretend to be you. Do not share this file with others, not even if they claim to be technical support."
14:16<TrueBrain>meh, our ini loader is really ... ugh
14:16-!-yeoldetoast [~billy@25.72.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:16<nielsm>I wonder if that can be phrased with simpler grammar to make sure people who aren't as proficient in english can read it too (and have better chance of it passing through machine translation)
14:16<TrueBrain>lets first see IF we can write it to the file
14:17<TrueBrain>the IniFile supports "comments"
14:17<TrueBrain>but this is basically "everything before the first group"
14:17<TrueBrain>and a "what ever was after the last entry"
14:17<TrueBrain>including \ns
14:19<TrueBrain>in other words: the current code doesn't allow this in a clean way, I think
14:19<LordAro>fwrite(fd, "This file...");
14:19<LordAro>:p
14:20<LordAro>oh, you wanted clean
14:20<LordAro>nvm
14:20<LordAro>:p
14:20<TrueBrain>well, what is funny with your solution
14:20<TrueBrain>that every time you save the config
14:20<TrueBrain>it adds that line
14:20<TrueBrain>so you end up with repeating that A LOT OF TIME :P
14:20<LordAro>just to make it *really* clear
14:20<nielsm>my suggestion would be to only write it when the file doesn't exist yet before opening it
14:21<TrueBrain>nielsm: there is no such thing :)
14:21<nielsm>so the user could also delete it and not have it re-appear
14:21<LordAro>that'd be quite a hack
14:21<LordAro>and possibly undesirable
14:21<TrueBrain>ps: incoming spam
14:21<LordAro>\o/
14:21<@Rubidium>then don't use powershell ;)
14:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot opened pull request #94: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWEM
14:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot commented on pull request #93: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWE9
14:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot closed pull request #93: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuHK
14:22<TrueBrain>this will happen .. 8 more times :P
14:22<TrueBrain>just saying
14:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot opened pull request #27: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWuU
14:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot commented on pull request #26: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWuT
14:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot closed pull request #26: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuHx
14:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #59: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWu4
14:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot commented on pull request #58: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWuR
14:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot closed pull request #58: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuQl
14:24<LordAro>and they're all broken \o/
14:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #51: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWu1
14:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot commented on pull request #50: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWuD
14:24<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot closed pull request #50: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuQH
14:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #56: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWzf
14:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot commented on pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWzT
14:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot closed pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGu7q
14:26<TrueBrain>and then it goes silent for a bit ... just so sneak back in a few later :P
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14:28<TrueBrain>I cannot believe the field is called "comment"
14:28<TrueBrain>but it is just "what-ever-is-the-junk-between-groups"
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14:29<TrueBrain>frosch123: \o/
14:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/eints] pyup-bot opened pull request #46: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWz5
14:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/eints] pyup-bot commented on pull request #45: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWzd
14:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/eints] pyup-bot closed pull request #45: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGudU
14:29<frosch123>ah, right in time for the spam :p
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14:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #32: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWg3
14:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot commented on pull request #31: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWgn
14:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot closed pull request #31: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGudu
14:30<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JGLne
14:30<TrueBrain>nielsm: I managed to cook something up .. it is not the prettiest, but also not really ugly
14:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #26: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWgi
14:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot commented on pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWgP
14:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot closed pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGudA
14:31<TrueBrain>how are you frosch123 ? We missed you :D
14:32<frosch123>yeah, i took a ottd vacation :)
14:33<frosch123>i'll be gone again over the weekend, but if i survive the vax on monday, i will be here more next week
14:34<Xaroth>wb frosch123
14:34<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcW2y
14:34<frosch123>info@ spam became even weirder. now they are advertising their tools for balancing games... how rude, as if there is anything out of balance
14:35<TrueBrain>frosch123: haha, well, I have a shot in my left arm and my right arm .. and I am still weird, so I am sure you will be fine too :P
14:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcWaV
14:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JGLne
14:42<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JGLne
14:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcWw1
14:54<TrueBrain>frosch123: I am still surprised how much "offers" we get at info@ .. especially stuff like translator help .. paid, ofc
14:56-!-frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:56<TrueBrain>that scared him ... can't blame him :D
14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JOk7C
14:57<TrueBrain>nielsm: btw, I made the text in #9298 more to the point by basically flipping your statement .. start with "DOT NOT SHARE" and explain why after :)
14:57<TrueBrain>(for those who are lazy :P : "; Do not share this file with others, not even if they claim to be technical support.\n; This file contains saved passwords and other secrets that should remain private to you!")
14:58<TrueBrain>funny how 9298 was suppose to be a simple PR .. it grew :D
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15:05<TrueBrain>-limnoria==2021.06.15
15:05<TrueBrain>+limnoria==2021.6.15
15:05<TrueBrain>ffs limnoria, make up your mind how you call your package
15:05<TrueBrain>this is annoying
15:05<LordAro>lol
15:06<TrueBrain>and why is requests still not updated for idna 3 ..
15:06<TrueBrain>this is getting old and boring
15:07<TrueBrain>"Thanks for the PR. I think this looks fine but there's some mild concern about users on Python 2"
15:08<TrueBrain>.... why?!
15:08<TrueBrain>how is Python 2 still a concern?
15:09<LordAro>there are still a lot of people still on py2
15:09<LordAro>but i'm not sure why that should affect new versions
15:10<TrueBrain>they are afraid they find an issue with requests, and cannot fix it for py2 users
15:10<TrueBrain>but .. you cannot support people using EOL stuff for ever and ever
15:10<TrueBrain>it is just not practical in any sense
15:10<LordAro>maybe you should tell them that
15:10<TrueBrain>many people did :P
15:11<TrueBrain>but they now scheduled it for "next release"
15:11<TrueBrain>with no ETA, ofc :D
15:12<TrueBrain>it btw is a more generic issue .. the longer we have Open Source software, the more you see this poping up .. people still using really old versions "because it works", often companies no longer investing money in their software
15:12<TrueBrain>just look at how many software still need to run in DOS :P
15:13<TrueBrain>I wonder what this does in 10 years :D
15:15<+glx>I can understand why py2 was still used in the begining of py3, but everybody should have switch to py3 by now, it's out for more than 10 years
15:16<+glx>I know there's some issues when moving from 2 to 3, but it's doable
15:16<LordAro>depends how big your codebase is :p
15:17<TrueBrain>and if your company wants to invest money in the conversion
15:17<TrueBrain>I really cannot blame people for staying on py2
15:17<+glx>at some point they will need to do it anyway
15:17<TrueBrain>but I cannot imagine the stress libraries have for still wanting to support it
15:18<TrueBrain>your increase your maintenance burden by so much
15:18<LordAro>one place in particular i know about does a *lot* of bytes/strings stuff (URL/HTTP-based), and doesn't have any spare devs
15:18<TrueBrain>no company has spare devs :P
15:18<TrueBrain>:D :D
15:18<LordAro>apparently the last pip release that supported py2 changed something fairly fundamental about the dependency resolver which broke several things
15:19<TrueBrain>with py2, many people use a fairly old pip, yes :)
15:19<TrueBrain>lol, the requests project has this in their CONTRIBUTING file: https://kenreitz.org/essays/2013/01/27/be-cordial-or-be-on-your-way :)
15:20<TrueBrain>article from 2013 :P
15:22<TrueBrain>"Do your best to sleep, daily."
15:22<TrueBrain>lol
15:23<TrueBrain>glx: btw, you might think they need to do it, but again .. there is still software that requires DOS to run
15:23<TrueBrain>and it is still receiving patches
15:24<TrueBrain>hell, lot of x-ray machines run WinXP, and are still receiving security-fixes (MS can be nice in certain cases)
15:24<TrueBrain>ATMs still run WinCE
15:25<TrueBrain>the world is full of "they should not be doing that anymore" :P
15:26<+glx>well python2 is no longer supported by python https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
15:26<TrueBrain>neither is DOS :)
15:26<TrueBrain>I really understand companies staying at Python2 :)
15:27<+glx>yes but DOS is an OS
15:27<TrueBrain>I just think it is not wise of libraries to not upgrade using that as argument :P But requests has adjusted their reasoning, so we just have to wait now ....... I am impatient ...... :D
15:27<TrueBrain>glx: is there really a difference? :)
15:28<TrueBrain>DOS is run in DOSBox for software still using it, to make the similarities more clear :D
15:29<TrueBrain>https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/1/22558292/police-officer-video-taylor-swift-youtube-copyright <- wtf?! righhhttttt
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15:38<andythenorth>yo
15:42<TrueBrain>you missed him, sorry :(
15:57<andythenorth>:P
15:57<TrueBrain>https://www.nexusmods.com/news/14538 <- they will be doing what we have been doing for 14 years .. interesting to see how people react to it :)
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16:04<andythenorth>anybody dare review this highly controversial PR? https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/223
16:06<TrueBrain>"It appears to me that NexusMods is intending to ignore the Rights of mod Authors in order to maintain the integrity of pre-defined Collections. I believe this is "wrong", and even "unethical"."
16:06<TrueBrain>(the right to delete their content at will, he is talking about)
16:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #223: Add: town var 0x41 'town_index' https://git.io/JcWS9
16:07<andythenorth>ethics eh??
16:07<TrueBrain>I think there is money involved in their platform :P It might bias things a bit :D
16:09*andythenorth reading http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html
16:09<TrueBrain>wtf is that
16:09<TrueBrain>can't even read the text
16:09<TrueBrain>the colours
16:09<TrueBrain>it hurts
16:09<TrueBrain>TAKE IT AWAY
16:09<TrueBrain>close the tab
16:09<TrueBrain>my mouse doesn't want to get close to the close button
16:09<TrueBrain>omg
16:09<TrueBrain>sorry :P
16:09<TrueBrain>who-ever wrote that site, please change the colours
16:10<andythenorth>I will read it for you
16:10<andythenorth>I am an expert in reading
16:13<andythenorth>have done that
16:13<andythenorth>it was a web page
16:14<NGC3982>andythereader
16:14<TrueBrain>andythenorth: insightful, tnx
16:14<andythenorth>something something mods
16:14<andythenorth>"open is better"
16:15<andythenorth>"no takebacks" is better
16:15<andythenorth>but licensing is hard
16:15<andythenorth>such summarising
16:15<andythenorth>LordAro THANKS :D
16:15<TrueBrain>reading the nexusmods, it seems we did well to make our ToS what it is from the start
16:16<TrueBrain>what a drama that is .. lol
16:16<andythenorth>modder drama
16:16<andythenorth>lol
16:16<andythenorth>hmm I think I self-removed my merge rights on nml
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16:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] TrueBrain merged pull request #223: Add: town var 0x41 'town_index' https://git.io/JnFYN
16:16<andythenorth>\o/
16:16<TrueBrain>clearly I do have rights
16:16<TrueBrain>didn't know
16:17<TrueBrain>I am trying to understand why mod authors want to be able to remove their content from nexusmods .. but I cannot find their reasoning. I am sure it is implied, but I am not part of that community, so I don't know it :D
16:18<andythenorth>it's the whole loss of control thing
16:18<TrueBrain>ah, so it is about the emotion?
16:18<andythenorth>I think so
16:18<TrueBrain>(not judging btw, I am curious)
16:18<andythenorth>I read some stuff about loss aversion
16:18<TrueBrain>guess that is one thing Open Source takes away from you :P
16:18<andythenorth>it's quite a big thing for peoples
16:19<TrueBrain>once you push .. it is out there for ever .. deal with it :P
16:19<andythenorth>BUT IT'S MY LIFE'S WORK
16:19<andythenorth>etc
16:19<andythenorth>etc
16:19<andythenorth>I MIGHT BE JUDGED
16:19<TrueBrain>can you imagine someone comes and wants to remove his line of code from a repo
16:19<andythenorth>PEOPLE MIGHT PIRATE IT
16:19<andythenorth>SOMEONE MIGHT MAKE MONEY
16:19<TrueBrain>the money argument comes by a lot
16:19<andythenorth>number of fucks I give
16:19<andythenorth>0
16:19<TrueBrain>but I read the same argument on minecraft modpacks
16:20<andythenorth>I do get triggered if someone GPL violates who should know better though
16:20<andythenorth>like...play fair
16:20<TrueBrain>basically .. without modpacks, mods were .. rarely downloaded .. and it was hard to put 2 mods together
16:20<TrueBrain>with modpacks, mod authors complain THEY DONT MAKE MONEY ANYMORE
16:20<andythenorth>we have modpacks yet?
16:20<TrueBrain>they also didn't before modpacks
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16:20<andythenorth>I MAKE NO MONEY ON GRFs
16:20<andythenorth>outrage
16:20<TrueBrain>well, I would like to add modpacks (read: presets :P )
16:20<TrueBrain>so I am somewhat curious how other communities deal with it
16:21<andythenorth>probably with drama?
16:21<TrueBrain>from what I understand, CurseForge solved the money argument by giving every download a share of the profit
16:21<TrueBrain>and modpacks do not embed mods anymore, but force a download via CurseForge
16:21<TrueBrain>but so far, in both these cases, money seems to be the central pillar
16:21<TrueBrain>which we don't have :P
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16:22<TrueBrain>and presets will be the same, they trigger a download from BaNaNaS .. they cannot embed content
16:22<andythenorth>TrueTTD $19
16:22<andythenorth>andythenorth modpack $7
16:22<andythenorth>we will be RICH
16:22<andythenorth>salaries for player support staff $1m
16:23<TrueBrain>some arguments are funny .. "we have the right to decide how our content is distributed" .. "with this change, you force us to participate"
16:23<TrueBrain>no, you can still opt NOT to use their platform
16:23<TrueBrain>you still have all your rights
16:24<TrueBrain>like some NewGRFs author opt not to use BaNaNaS .. their freedom after all
16:24<andythenorth>people gonna people
16:24<+glx>and they can still distribute outside of BaNaNaS if they want
16:24<andythenorth>ok now I must documentation nml :)
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16:25<TrueBrain>they can even clone BaNaNaS if they like .. the source code is there :)
16:25<andythenorth>oof wiki markup
16:25<andythenorth>oh
16:25<andythenorth>how do we document nml that hasn't been released yet?
16:25<andythenorth>lol
16:25<andythenorth>the nml docs :)
16:25<TrueBrain>shall I click the release button? :P
16:26<TrueBrain>pretty sure some people will get really mad at me if I do that :P
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16:26<+glx>andythenorth: just use 0.6+ in the doc :)
16:27<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/479508978699599872/860214376077328424/Nexus.jpg <- for some reason that made me giggle
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16:28<andythenorth>done
16:28<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Towns
16:28<TrueBrain>we are proud you managed to do that
16:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #223: Add: town var 0x41 'town_index' https://git.io/JcWH5
16:28<andythenorth>it's an achievement
16:28<TrueBrain>I saw the popup
16:28<andythenorth>where's the docs tracker?
16:29<+glx>or {{nml|0.6}} (like there's already for 0.3 and 0.5)
16:29<andythenorth>seems I don't need to update this https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Development/NewGRF/Specification%20Status
16:30<andythenorth>glx yes I did the {{nml|0.6}} version :)
16:30<+glx>you still need to document procedures ;)
16:30<andythenorth>I do
16:30<andythenorth>only one year late https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/105
16:31<andythenorth>I don't really know how to explain them
16:31<andythenorth>I tried a couple of times explaining them to other grf authors in discord
16:31<+glx>because I think it's better if it's written by someone who used it
16:31<andythenorth>it's really hard to explain them
16:31<andythenorth>but really easy to use them :P
16:32<andythenorth>excuses eh
16:33<andythenorth>let's write something bad, then you can criticise it
16:33<+glx>I don't see how it can be hard to say it allows to write things like (x + procedure() * 3)
16:34<andythenorth>it's the concept
16:34<andythenorth>an nml author is going to have no idea what a procedure is
16:34*andythenorth looks what newgrf says
16:35<andythenorth>"When the variable in a VarAction2 is 7E, the procedure given by the 60+x parameter is invoked. This means that the byte following the variable number (7E) specifies a variational or random action 2 ID to call, similarly to how a regular VarAction2 branches to other action 2 entries. However, instead of branching, it is a subroutine call, with the value calculated by the called entry being used as variable
16:35<andythenorth> value."
16:35<andythenorth>ok so I just translate that to nml, job is a good un
16:36<andythenorth>TrueBrain want to help? :)
16:36<+glx>oh IIRC there's something about scope too
16:38<+glx>ah no it's about feature, but I don't think nml handles that correctly
16:38<andythenorth>procedures are the best addition to nml...probably since it was released
16:38<andythenorth>do I bother trying to explain how to use them?
16:38<andythenorth>or just document the interface?
16:38<andythenorth>they remove so much duplicate code
16:39<+glx>any switch can be used as procedure, then parameters were added for mor power
16:40<andythenorth>reduced code duplication
16:40<andythenorth>faster compiles
16:40<andythenorth>'custom variables'
16:40<+glx>I think there's only one possible issue with procedures, they can easily eat a lot of action 2 ID :)
16:41<TrueBrain>You want me to help write docs for something I don't know anything about andythenorth? Sounds like a terrible idea :p
16:41<andythenorth>TrueBrain but I pasted the nfo docs above :P
16:41<andythenorth>all we have to do is use those
16:42<andythenorth>glx I didn't run out of action 2 IDs....yet :)
16:42<andythenorth>despite the loop unroll thing
16:42<+glx>depends of the number of procedure and the last usage
16:43<+glx>if you declare a lot in begining but use them only at the end
16:43<andythenorth>I am sure I will find a case that breaks it
16:43<+glx>but it's indeed the same with other switches
16:43<andythenorth>I broke the action 2 ID limit a few times already
16:44<+glx>I think optimisations help in the case of normal switches (though then often already were reusing same IDs)
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16:45<andythenorth>maybe I should try and break it
16:45<andythenorth>nah :)
16:45<+glx>but for example, if a switch jumps to 4 others returning constant, you save 3 IDs
16:47<+glx>it's easy to break the action 2 ID limit if stuff is declared way before it's used
16:47<andythenorth>@seen Eddi|zuHause
16:47<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 22 hours, 15 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that code part is very contained.
16:47<andythenorth>oh Eddi|zuHause is alive :)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>am i really?
16:48<+glx>usually some reordering fixes the issue
16:49<+glx>(can be a pain with generated code :) )
16:50<+glx>but often a complex chain (with many scope changes) use only one ID
16:51<+glx>unless it switches between all available cargos ;)
16:52<+glx>and do something different for each one
16:54<+glx>anyway in this case 64 IDs are needed, but only for a short time
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16:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #105: Document procedures for switches and random switches https://git.io/Jftrs
16:57<+glx>nml is way better at using IDs for complex stuff than doing it manually in NFO :)
16:57<andythenorth>it's not good :P ^^
16:58<andythenorth>but eh
16:58<andythenorth>there are examples from FIRS and Horse for procedures, but I don't know if they're good
17:00<+glx>haha the point 3
17:02<andythenorth>nobody needs to see that loop unroll
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17:18<Samu>No lost ships! Excelent job! but those framerates hurt :( https://i.imgur.com/dZ1iL3I.png
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22:01<esselfe>Hi, I'm trying out the quebecois town names newGRF on a dedicated server but I get german names... I followed https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=76674 so the content is downloaded on the server and the appropriate section is filled, but I think I must set town_name to something else than german...
22:01<esselfe>I don't know what it needs
22:02<esselfe>better vehicle names works fine
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22:06<esselfe>it's not "quebecois" because I get english names
22:07<esselfe>well it says 100 most populated towns, and the map is 2048x2048... maybe it's that
22:08<+glx>you need to put a number in the config
22:15<+glx>newgrf townnames start at 21
22:24<+glx>oh and "content select all" doesn't work since 1.11 (it's disabled)
22:28<esselfe>let me try that :)
22:31<esselfe>it works!
22:31<esselfe>thanks alot
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 02 00:00:53 2021