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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-08-22

---Logopened Sun Aug 22 00:00:05 2021
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04:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain started discussion #9504: [Suggestion] Minimized version of the Online Players window
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05:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PikkaBird commented on discussion #9504: [Suggestion] Minimized version of the Online Players window
05:26<andythenorth>oof solitaire
05:26<andythenorth>send help
05:27<TrueBrain>you are a grown man
05:27<TrueBrain>I think?
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05:34*andythenorth checks
05:34<andythenorth>you seem to be correct :P
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05:44<andythenorth>the version I'm playing is about 99.99996% winnable
05:44<andythenorth>limited skill required :P
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06:47<nielsm>solitaire you say?
06:50<TrueBrain>... I don't even ... :p
06:56<frosch123>lol, when was my last PR? git needed to push 9 MiB to my remote branch
06:56<frosch123>did someone add pictures?
06:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #9505: Doc: guidelines on english.txt or translation changes in PRs.
06:59<@Rubidium>TB did
07:01<@Rubidium>well, he added some icons which might account not even 100 KiB of that
07:04*andythenorth is playing spider
07:05<frosch123>how did you attach yourself to the ceiling?
07:05<frosch123>or still trying?
07:14<andythenorth>a different kind of spider :P
07:15<andythenorth>more like
07:15<andythenorth>was it FIRS I was doing?
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07:27<Eddi|zuHause>you wanted to solve the "FIRS in desert needs to treat shops like water towers"
07:30<TrueBrain>frosch123: so I did it correct with my typo in STR PR \o/ :D
07:30<TrueBrain>only by accident, I have to admit
07:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9505: Doc: guidelines on english.txt or translation changes in PRs.
07:33<frosch123>no typos?
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07:38<TrueBrain>none I spotted
07:38<TrueBrain>doesn't mean a lot, I admit
07:39<frosch123>i assumed there would be a "wtf does this mean?" :p
07:39<TrueBrain>sorry :(
07:42<TrueBrain>I was surprised we offer outside contributions to typos in translations, but that was all :P
07:48<frosch123>not sure whether we "offer" that. but it's a better option than telling people to sign up as translator, who then won't translate anything. here's a precedent:
07:48<frosch123>it's awesome to highlight a team like that
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07:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause that's just a GS :)
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i disagree
07:55<andythenorth>no progress without dissent eh
07:55<andythenorth>well I was told it is a GS
07:55<andythenorth>but as nobody is in charge here, what are the alternatives?
07:56<TrueBrain>@op andythenorth
07:56-!-mode/#openttd [+o andythenorth] by DorpsGek
07:56<TrueBrain>there, fixed the issue
07:56<@andythenorth>really no
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07:56<TrueBrain>wrong "here"? :D
07:57<TrueBrain>awh :)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, there exists code that places water towers in desert towns. quite likely there's an industry behaviour flag for that. or there should be one.
07:58<andythenorth>it doesn't guarantee one per town though
07:58<andythenorth>unless I missed something
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>that's a different issue
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08:00<andythenorth>maybe I'll make FIRS generate Squirrel today
08:01<andythenorth>I have to copy the industry production behaviour into GS
08:01<andythenorth>it might drift out of sync in large maps
08:01<andythenorth>due to GS execution model
08:02<andythenorth>ha maybe I can read the map sie
08:02<andythenorth>size *
08:02<andythenorth>yes I can
08:02<andythenorth>maybe I just refuse to allow FIRS on maps > x
08:03<andythenorth>do we know anything about GS performance (number of ops performed per loop)? Is it fairly consistent, or is it dependent on hardware?
08:03<nielsm>it's supposed to be limited by number of squirrel VM operations
08:03<nielsm>so hardware independent
08:04<andythenorth>do we have any memory concerns?
08:04<andythenorth>I'm going to have to cache some data about every industry on the map
08:04<andythenorth>that's probably trivial
08:05<andythenorth>some people want production history industry
08:05<andythenorth>I can give every industry a story-book page
08:05<andythenorth>that will also solve the 'not enough room in industry window'
08:06<andythenorth>how do I link to the story book page from the industry though?
08:06<nielsm>not quite possible
08:06<andythenorth>special string code?
08:06<nielsm>you can make a main page with a button that lets the player click a map tile, and then look up an industry from that map tile, and determine which storybook page to switch to from that industry, and then switch the storybook page
08:06<andythenorth>give it the UID of the industry, and a special prefix
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08:07<nielsm>in fact you can also just update the page on demand that way
08:07<andythenorth>click a tile might be quite cool
08:07*andythenorth will test in a bit
08:08<andythenorth>'industry inspector'
08:08<nielsm>instead of switching to a page for the industry, just make the button generate the page for that industry
08:08<nielsm>so you don't need to have 500 pages in the book
08:18<andythenorth>oof GS has SetText for industry
08:18<andythenorth>but not GetText
08:18<andythenorth>I could have used the industry window text as control channel from grf to GS
08:19*andythenorth wonders how hard that is to add
08:19<andythenorth>vehicles have GetName
08:20<TrueBrain>every possible crack in the wall he finds he jumps on :D
08:21<andythenorth>I did find a side channel with a few bits, but I've forgotten what it was
08:22<TrueBrain>reminds me of the way people instructed stuff via Signs
08:22<TrueBrain>back in the old days :D
08:24<andythenorth>oh it was cargo acceptance
08:24<andythenorth>newgrf industry can allow / deny acceptance per cargo
08:24<andythenorth>GS can read it
08:24<andythenorth>so that's 1 bit
08:24<andythenorth>but if I introduce some special cargos, I can use them for signalling
08:25<TrueBrain>do the same for Town houses?
08:25<andythenorth>I think they can also do that yes
08:26<andythenorth>text-parsing the industry window text would be a lot...richer
08:27<frosch123>so firs will now add vehicles, just to pass info to GS?
08:27<andythenorth>I did just consider making a transportable cargo for GS signalling
08:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 merged pull request #9505: Doc: guidelines on english.txt or translation changes in PRs.
08:27<andythenorth>and actually delivering 'happiness'
08:28<TrueBrain>can you make a hidden cargo?
08:28<frosch123>"100t of happyness waiting to be processed"?
08:28<andythenorth>can't hide a cargo
08:28<TrueBrain>as that would actually be a neat idea, to cargo "happiness" around :D
08:28<andythenorth>can set it to 0 payment
08:28<TrueBrain>but a player shouldn't see it :P
08:29<frosch123>TrueBrain: vehicle can only carry one cargo
08:29<frosch123>refit to happyness
08:29<TrueBrain>it could be in the engine or something :)
08:29<TrueBrain>or, what is it called .. a second part of an engine that is invisible
08:29<TrueBrain>pretty sure we can work around that issue :D
08:30<frosch123>yes, articulated parts can carry different things, but autoreplace rejects those vehicles
08:30<andythenorth>someone said that was fixed or something
08:30<andythenorth>I tested it, didn't work for me
08:30<andythenorth>anyway, I'd use trams for happiness :P
08:40<andythenorth>'happy tram'
08:44<andythenorth>happiness tram?
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09:21<+glx>andythenorth: can't a never available engine be used (always valid for GS, but never for companies) be used as a communication medium ?
09:21<andythenorth>there's no grf spec for industry to control that though
09:24<@peter1138>Apparenly my windows key failed.
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09:26<andythenorth>GS can read amounts of cargo produced, so that's more signalling
09:26<andythenorth>I could bitmask
09:26<andythenorth>1 cargo could carry quite a lot of bits
09:26<andythenorth>or alternatively amounts
09:26<andythenorth>can grf force things onto the stockpile?
09:26*andythenorth looks if production callback can have negative amounts
09:27<andythenorth>yes signed bytes
09:27<+glx>negative and 15bit never play nicely :)
09:27<andythenorth>can cargo names be empty strings
09:28*andythenorth considers "" as name
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09:28<andythenorth>it won't then appear in vehicle refit lists etc
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09:40<andythenorth>what would be the worst side channel? :P
09:49<andythenorth>what about letting GS read the current animation frame of an industry tile?
09:51<frosch123>allow GS to make screenshots and parse the pixels
09:52<andythenorth>that's just silly
09:52<andythenorth>it could analyse sound effects though
09:52<Samu>what is this invite code for
09:52<frosch123>aircraft may distrupt the communication
09:52<Samu>Invite code: +myCcnGH
09:52<andythenorth>waveform encoding?
09:54<+glx>simple way to connect to a server Samu
09:54<andythenorth>is there industry cb for sound effect?
09:54<Samu>where do i use this code
09:54<frosch123>all animations can trigger sound effects
09:54<+glx>in "add server", like ip:port
09:55<+glx>useful for private games
09:55<Samu>ah, it's not too clear where it's used
09:55<Samu>I see
09:55<+glx>because public ones are listed :)
09:58<andythenorth>can I use sub-audible sound effects?
09:58<andythenorth>this would be absolutely the most incredible side channel
09:58<Samu>connecting to myself is slow
09:59<frosch123>may hurt kids and dogs
10:01<andythenorth>ok, so the animation frame is the more plausible route
10:01<Samu>i can only have 1 server running at the same time?
10:02<andythenorth>looks quite easy to add GS method calling GetAnimationFrame()
10:02<+glx>no you can have more than one, but each must be on a different port
10:03<Samu>so ports still matter
10:03<+glx>of course, but you don't have to forward them now
10:05<frosch123>andythenorth: industries have persistent storage btw
10:06<andythenorth>yes :)
10:06<andythenorth>I found it
10:07<andythenorth>but that was thought to be unsuitable for GS to read
10:07<frosch123>it is, but what makes you think animation frames were better?
10:07<+glx>animation frames are worse
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10:10<andythenorth>I didn't think it would be better
10:10<andythenorth>just funnier
10:11<andythenorth>it would have interesting unintended consequences
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10:36<TrueBrain> <- couldn't resist :)
10:46<debdog>is the maintainer of the .deb-packages here? have a suggestion to conform these packages with FHS.
10:47<debdog>or do I need to contact him via email (package says info@o.....)
10:48<debdog>suggestion would be installation into /usr/local instead of /usr
10:49<+glx>IIRC it follows debian rules
10:49<LordAro>a *deb* installing into /usr/local seems wrong
10:50<frosch123>i assume you do not mean the bundles shipped with debian, but those from the website download?
10:51<debdog>frosch123: yes, the download page. NOT the ones shipped by debian/ubuntu. these should go into /usr
10:52<debdog>LordAro: from the link I've posted: "It needs to be safe from being overwritten when the system software is updated."
10:53<nielsm>directly in /usr is owned by the OS distribution, while /usr/local is owned by the user, is the principle as far as I know
10:53<debdog>that sums it up, yes
10:54<LordAro>except it's got the same name as the OS-provided package anyway, so it's not like you can manage to install both at once
10:55<+glx> <-- easy to fix
10:56<Heiki>as LordAro said, the deb packages from conflict with the ones from Debian (or Ubuntu or whatever), so I don’t see a problem with /usr
10:56<debdog>LordAro: it's not just about the name, version is important as well
10:57<LordAro>no it isn't?
10:57<LordAro>dpkg will not let you install 2 packages with the same name
10:57<LordAro>version is irrelevant
10:58<LordAro>(i don't particularly disagree that our own packages should install to /usr/local, but your justification is wrong)
11:00<debdog>well, I don't really care and do want to discuss this any further. fact is /usr should be reserved for packages managed by the package manager. /usr/local or even /opt is for packages/software installed manually by the user.
11:00<debdog>*do NOT
11:00<LordAro>dpkg is the package manager
11:00<+glx>system packages vs user packages
11:00<LordAro>deb files *are* system packages
11:01<LordAro>where you got them from isn't particularly relevant
11:02<frosch123>glx: maybe related. when building locally, the shared folder is set to "/usr/local/games", so openttd does not find OpenGFX from the distribution in /usr/games
11:02<frosch123>super annoying :p
11:03<debdog>I do not know whether openttd's and debian's package maintainr/s
11:04<debdog>I do not know whether openttd's and debian's package maintainer/s are working tightly together or not. if yes, then there prolly will no problem arise in the future. if not, anything could happen and the package's locations should be seperated
11:06<LordAro>we do work together, yes
11:06<debdog>that's why my initial question was, wheter said package manager is around
11:06<debdog>ok then
11:06<+glx>frosch123: possible, CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX defaults to /usr/local
11:06<LordAro>but i still dispute "anything could happen"
11:07<frosch123>glx: yes, it does
11:11<+glx>you can use GLOBAL_DIR to change it without changing default prefix I think
11:18<TrueBrain>I know a solution .. we could just remove Ubuntu/Debian packages from and leave that fully up to distros? :D :P
11:19<TrueBrain>frosch123: I found that problem so annoying, I might have several symlinks in place :P
11:20<+glx>I have many symlinks (well ntfs junctions) on windows for the encoding pain of different programs and my username
11:21<frosch123>haha, when will windows switch to utf8?
11:21<+glx>won't fix the issue
11:21<+glx>each program can use each own encoding
11:22<TrueBrain>debdog: a bit of history for you, but the current maintainer for Debian is an old OpenTTD developer :)
11:22<TrueBrain>we used to keep the .deb somewhat in sync with what was in our repo and what was used on Debian
11:22<TrueBrain>but .. with the CMake switch, that is no longer the case
11:23<TrueBrain>so the "maintainer" of the .deb on is CPack, basically :)
11:25<debdog>ok, I think this answers my questions
11:29<+glx> <-- and I enable utf8 as default in windows
11:29<TrueBrain>and in general Linux makes it really difficult for software to use paths outside their own directory .. XDG .. FHS .. they add to complexity in many cases. OpenGFX is indeed a fine example of this .. either we need to modify our code to work with several "global" folders, looking in both /usr and /usr/local (which sounds weird)
11:29<TrueBrain>or we need to coordinate where OpenGFX is installed ..
11:30<TrueBrain>so using /usr/local might be "strictly more correct" for the .deb on
11:30<TrueBrain>it also means "apt install openttd-opengfx" no longer works
11:30<TrueBrain>resulting in bug-reports and the what not :)
11:30<TrueBrain>there is no good solution here .. just one that takes the least amount of surprises :P
11:31<LordAro>i'd be in favour of dropping the global folder entirely, tbh
11:31<LordAro>it must be so rarely used, except for opengfx which can be installed easily via bootstrap/content
11:31<TrueBrain>to me it all became bikeshedding :)
11:31<TrueBrain>Linux got itself in this mess .. I leave it to others to deal with it :P
11:32<frosch123>LordAro: opengfx is needed for servers, so dedicated servery work currently with installation from package manager
11:33<+glx>ha yes no GUI-less bootstrap
11:33<frosch123>"all from package manager" and "all custom" cases work fine, i think. the mixtures are the complicated ones, but also the unneeded ones
11:34<TrueBrain>and this is why I favour Linux Generic, as it makes it much more clear to the user what is going on :)
11:34<TrueBrain>offering the .deb gives a false sense of compatibility, basically
11:35<TrueBrain>on Steam and GOG we just bundle OpenGFX and friends .. also a fine solution :D
11:37<+glx>yeah but steam (at least, not sure for GOG) doesn't download opengfx and friends when only openttd is updated
11:37<TrueBrain>I think GOG always does download it .. but compared to other games, rather irrelevant :D
11:37<+glx>while bundling on would just waste our bandwidth
11:38<+glx>and money ;)
11:40<+glx>I guess it should be possible to add a noGUI version of bootstrap
11:40<TrueBrain>or or or or .. can we finally fix that OpenGFX is not required for dedicated servers? :D
11:43<LordAro>frosch123: amazing
11:45<andythenorth>hmm so I could just fork to read industry registers from GS
11:45<andythenorth>then I'll have to learn how to merge :P
11:47<TrueBrain>is openttdcoop now really dead? Seems offline for more than a few days now :(
11:48<@Rubidium>if so, then you got your savegames just in time
11:48<TrueBrain>that is for sure
11:48<LordAro>probably just needs planetmaker to kick it?
11:49<andythenorth>pm is maybe on holiday
11:49<andythenorth>seems quite dead
11:49<LordAro>(hopefully on holiday, not quite dead)
11:49<andythenorth>hmm where's the accessor for PersistentStorage
11:50<+glx>direct access I think
11:50<andythenorth>yeah looks like a loop
11:50<andythenorth>and the GS would need a grfid
11:51<andythenorth>there's not a trivial function I can just reuse
11:51<andythenorth>hmm, I think TrueBrain's idea is better than any of mine :(
11:52<andythenorth>disappointing :D
11:52<TrueBrain>I agree, disappointing
12:05<andythenorth>who else has ideas in the world?
12:07<frosch123>check suggestion forum
12:07*frosch123 hides
12:14<andythenorth>suggestions ->
12:15<+glx>no you still receive them ;)
12:28<TrueBrain>did you hack his machine and are you forwarding to tt-forums? That is just evil
12:33<Samu> this site doesn't open
12:34<andythenorth>'is openttdcoop now really dead?'
12:34<Samu>no idea what this error is
12:34<TrueBrain>andythenorth: how do you set Industry text in NewGRF?
12:38<TrueBrain>bit laggy, this bot
12:39<+glx>not a bot
12:39<LordAro>that's exactly what a bot would say
12:39<TrueBrain>past the turing test for me!
12:39<TrueBrain>past? passed
12:40<TrueBrain>so difficult, the English language
12:40<+glx>sound the same IIRC
12:40<LordAro>in some accents
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13:17<andythenorth>hmm what if OpenTTD just had a specific callback for firing GS event?
13:17<andythenorth>and it was limited to certain features?
13:18<andythenorth>and it just looped, like the articulated vehicles callback
13:18<andythenorth>until 'terminate callback' is returned
13:18<andythenorth>and the 'event' was just a string of text that GS could parse?
13:19<andythenorth>called every n ticks
13:27<andythenorth>256 ticks, or monthly
13:27<andythenorth>something like that
13:29<frosch123> <- look, only 6 years old
13:31<andythenorth>town control somewhere also :P
13:36<TrueBrain>that describes GS -> NewGRF, if I am getting it right, not?
13:37<frosch123>but due to how newgrf and gs work, some communication is async and some is sync
13:38<TrueBrain>yeah, ofc
13:38<TrueBrain>but I miss the NewGRF -> GS part .. well, in a free format, that is
13:38<frosch123>newgrf triggering gsevent makes no sense to me, it would just overload the evene queue
13:38<frosch123>gs polling newgrf is more robust
13:38<TrueBrain>I was about to comment, as it is funny to me, to me the reverse makes a lot less sense :D
13:39<frosch123>"newgrf -> gs" is the first one "gs/ai info query callback"
13:39<frosch123>just that gs have to poll for the information
13:39<TrueBrain>but GS is in the lead again :)
13:39<TrueBrain>so that is more GS -> NewGRF to fetch data :D
13:40<frosch123>yes, the assumption is, 2000 industries on map, 1 GS
13:40<frosch123>the GS defines the speed of the communication :p
13:40<TrueBrain>this reminds me too much of things like ModBus
13:40<TrueBrain>I go hide in a corner for a bit to recover
13:41<TrueBrain>what I do wonder, as I read more of this "JSON" stuff .. is JSON really meant here? Or just some dict-like format?
13:41<TrueBrain>As Squirrel has a dict-format
13:41<TrueBrain>and NewGRF cannot really read JSON anyway
13:42<frosch123>we already have json for gs<->admin port
13:42<TrueBrain>so going via true JSON is rather inefficient :P
13:42<TrueBrain>so I keep reading it as "some internal format that acts like a dict"
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13:42<TrueBrain>but not sure that is what is meant :D
13:42<frosch123>that reading is fine
13:43<TrueBrain>(otherwise I am missing a piece of the puzzle, basically :D)
13:43<frosch123>gs send/receive data as squirrel table
13:43<frosch123>newgrf have some kind of structure template, and extract/fill parameters from them
13:43<TrueBrain>yeah, okay :) Then I am in sync :)
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13:46<TrueBrain>I am still fuzzy on parameters etc in NewGRF
13:46<TrueBrain>but I have yet to touch it .. I should work on TrueGRF more :P
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14:02<TrueBrain>frosch123: that wiki page talks about industry .. is that meant as example, and should this just work for everything? Or is there a reason to only target this at industries?
14:05<andythenorth>industries are the most useful case
14:06<andythenorth>vehicles could be plausible...but eh, there could be .... a lot
14:06<TrueBrain>I keep hearing you blab about Towns, for example :P
14:06<andythenorth>towns don't have a real newgrf feature
14:06<andythenorth>it's fake
14:07<andythenorth>so there's currently nothing in grf that could be called
14:07<andythenorth>houses might be valid though
14:07<frosch123>TrueBrain: the action14 part is more general
14:07<TrueBrain>Houses .. Towns ... either way, my question remains: is this meant as narrow-scope, or as global-scope :)
14:07<frosch123>it can also be used by vehicle newgrf, to explain usage, or similar
14:07<frosch123>but for in-game communication, only industries make sense
14:09<frosch123>the wiki page is from the days of "gs do towns, newgrf do industries, how can they cooperate"
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14:09<frosch123>there is another page from before gs, with how to do towns via newgrf :p
14:09<frosch123>andy keeps crying about that one :)
14:09<TrueBrain>guess the answer is: not
14:09<TrueBrain>written really large on a single page? :P
14:11<frosch123>i guess the "gs announcement board" can also be read by houses, to prefer houses of a specific style in a town
14:11<frosch123>but that ultimately breaks because towns are generated before gs starts
14:11<TrueBrain>maybe also useful for stations or something?
14:11<frosch123>chicken-egg :)
14:11<TrueBrain>people can come up with crazy shit :P
14:13<andythenorth>town types could have been done in grf :P
14:13<andythenorth>with a 'town founded' callback
14:13<andythenorth>but there's no town
14:13<andythenorth>"there is no spoon"
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15:13<andythenorth>frosch123 so can we implement it? :P
15:17<frosch123>tb is the only one who implements anything
15:17<frosch123>though maybe he got a job by now
15:17<TrueBrain>yet no reviewers :'(
15:17<TrueBrain>I did :)
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15:24<frosch123>is it the job where you ranted about std::filesystem ?
15:24<TrueBrain>without doubt
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15:24<TrueBrain>using / operator for shit like this is idiotic, and I tell everyone that wants to hear :P
15:25<LordAro>i like it
15:25<LordAro>pathlib does it too, which is probably what it was inspired by
15:25<TrueBrain>you are free to have that opinion; it is the wrong one, but you are free to have it :P :P
15:25<TrueBrain>j/k ofc :)
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16:10<andythenorth>ok fixed my WR in tanks
16:10<andythenorth>time for FIRS?
16:23<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9502: Fix #9501: [Network] crash when more than one game-info query was pen…
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 23 00:00:06 2021