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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-09-03

---Logopened Fri Sep 03 00:00:21 2021
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11:25<Samu> and
11:25<Samu>my dream of 5000 vehicles is too slow still
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12:16<_aD>Samu: O_O
12:17<_aD>I finally converted a friend to using Silly town names. Mission accomplished.
12:17<_aD>It was "Evilbottom" that sealed the deal.
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12:35<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #9535: [Bug]: Poor performance opening "Check Online Content" window due to O(N^3) behaviour
12:44<LordAro>those functions are very strange
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12:47<FLHerne>_aD: upgrading is usually a mistake
12:48<FLHerne>Just build a new and better network from scratch
12:49<_aD>FLHerne: I did. I have now had to cheat to the tune of £100m. Hahha.
12:50<_aD>FIRS + Medium infrastructure costs ate through my £490m far more quickly than I expected. In fact I thought I had effectively infinite money...
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13:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] JGRennison opened issue #105: Policy: Uploads which are not usable with main/trunk OpenTTD
13:38<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #9536: Change: Deliver cargo to closest industry first
13:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #9536: Change: Deliver cargo to closest industry first
14:09<andythenorth>is it men's shed time?
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14:16<andythenorth>how is coop bouncer working?
14:17<andythenorth>coop is down no?
14:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 commented on issue #105: Policy: Uploads which are not usable with main/trunk OpenTTD
14:18<frosch123>andythenorth: just proves that it is a software issue, no hardware issue
14:18<frosch123>90% of the VMs crashed, the server did not burn down
14:22<andythenorth>ah ah
14:24<frosch123>devzone server is as stable as my router :)
14:30<TrueBrain>nice writing frosch123
14:30<frosch123>any opinion on my last sentence?
14:32<frosch123>it would give a clear indication how to "tag" content for jgrpp in the upload
14:32<frosch123>bananas-server could "or" the versions for compatibilty, or something
14:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain commented on issue #105: Policy: Uploads which are not usable with main/trunk OpenTTD
14:36<TrueBrain>yeah, absolutely, we should do that. I think we were kinda waiting for someone to ask first
14:36<TrueBrain>but now the question is asked, yeah, lets do it
14:37<TrueBrain>I also think a protocol change will be trivial
14:37<TrueBrain>I just don't really know what JGRPP should send as "version"
14:38<TrueBrain>12.0 feels a bit weird :P
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14:41<TrueBrain>and I have no clue what JGRPP uses as newgrf-version currently
14:43<andythenorth>discord will know :P
14:43<andythenorth>where JGR resides :P
14:44<TrueBrain> <- guess the easiest is to just add a "branch" name there. Define the variable in, like the version. Make it "vanilla" by default. JGRPP can define that to "jgrpp"
14:44<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I am testing my summoning powers
14:44<TrueBrain>"Blazing fast, silky smooth, positive adjectives performance when opening the check online content window" <- haha, okay, that made me smile :D
14:45*andythenorth likes trains
14:45<andythenorth>I would do ogfx
14:45<andythenorth>but I am still doing work
14:46<andythenorth>any chance of a ticket for the update here
14:46<andythenorth>or is that admin overkill?
14:46<LordAro>andythenorth: is #68 not to your liking?
14:47<andythenorth>it's excellent
14:47<andythenorth>pls send new eyes
14:49<frosch123>TrueBrain: jgrpp uses the same "newgrf-versions" as the vanilla version from last sync/merge
14:49<LordAro>andythenorth: also OpenTTD#9031
14:49<frosch123>there are separate "branch versions" for newgrf as well
14:49<TrueBrain>that will be confusing to users, as they will enter jgrpp >= 0.42.0
14:49<LordAro>(which also requires some OGFX changes)
14:49<frosch123>so jgrpp can have its own newgrf version, no need to abuse the vanilla one
14:50<TrueBrain>so he just needs to find a good way to encode "0.42.3" into the dword, I guess :P
14:51<TrueBrain>or, maybe, we shouldn't use a dword for it to the bananas-server, but a string
14:51<TrueBrain>might just be easier
14:51<frosch123>ah, so the api would need a mapping from jgrpp version to vanilla version. i don't think that will happen :p
14:51<TrueBrain>as we now use the _openttd_newgrf_version for it
14:51<TrueBrain>but .. that is not really needed, as we don't do anything with that
14:52<TrueBrain>we deduce the major/minor/patch from it
14:52<TrueBrain>so using _openttd_revision as string might just solve this as well
14:52<frosch123>TrueBrain: we could add a list of string-pairs at the end of PACKET_CONTENT_CLIENT_INFO_LIST should
14:52<frosch123><type> <legacy newgrf version> (<branch string> <version string>)*
14:53<TrueBrain>hmm, no, my idea is stupid, as that doesn't work for nightlies
14:53<frosch123>"branch string" is the same as in
14:53<TrueBrain>yeah, protocol wise that is fine by me
14:53<frosch123>"version string" not sure :p
14:53<TrueBrain>I just realised "version string" is more difficult
14:54<frosch123>there is already some version-sorting logic on the server page
14:54<frosch123>maybe the same logic can compare string versions of branches
14:54<TrueBrain>my issues is nightlies :)
14:54<TrueBrain>what version does that represent
14:54<frosch123>the next one
14:54<TrueBrain>what "next"? :)
14:54<frosch123>current nightly is 12.0, after branch it will be 13.0
14:54<TrueBrain>there is no list in bananas-server about any thing version related
14:55<TrueBrain>as .. we kept forget to update that :P
14:55<LordAro>why not make it always "next" ?
14:55<TrueBrain>so the client needs to send this information :)
14:55<TrueBrain>meaning _openttd_revision doesn't cut it
14:55<LordAro>i.e. if your scenario depends on something in current nightlies, it's on you if you don't update the version after 12.0 is actually released
14:56<LordAro>treat all nightlies, regardless of age, as newer than any release
14:56<TrueBrain>users now already upload content with >= 12.0
14:56<frosch123>i don't understand the problem you see. vanilla would send <type> <legacy version> "offical" "12.0"
14:56<TrueBrain>as they use something from the nightly
14:56<TrueBrain>not sure that "next" is a good thing
14:56<TrueBrain>frosch123: on a protocol level, no issue
14:56<TrueBrain>I was thinking where this "12.0" lives in the code
14:56<TrueBrain>I was thinking of using _openttd_revision
14:56<TrueBrain>but I cannot
14:57<TrueBrain>so .. another hard-coded global?
14:58<frosch123>it's "next" release :)
14:58<LordAro>build system doesn't know whether the next release is 12.1 or 13.0 :p
14:59<TrueBrain>yet-another-hardcoded-string .. bah :P
14:59<frosch123>but yes, a new "const char _openttd_content_branch[] = "12.0";"
14:59<frosch123>LordAro: _openttd_newgrf_version already contains the numbers
14:59<TrueBrain>LordAro: because of our branches, we kinda do ;)
14:59<frosch123>just not as nice string
15:01<TrueBrain>any reason to keep legacy version?
15:01<TrueBrain>owh, crap, this protocol was not versionized
15:01<TrueBrain>I forgot
15:01<frosch123>the server has to keep it, the client can set it to "TRUE"
15:02<frosch123>"andy" or "lord" also works
15:02*frosch123 is lucky to not have a 4 letter name
15:02<TrueBrain>just bull we forgot to add version in the protocol
15:02<TrueBrain>happy I didn't forget for GC :)
15:04<frosch123>if you really want to get rid of the legacy-version, you can add a new package id
15:04<frosch123>but i think keeping the dummy-version is less messy
15:04<TrueBrain>I agree
15:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain commented on issue #105: Policy: Uploads which are not usable with main/trunk OpenTTD
15:06<TrueBrain>let me know if I made a boo-boo in translation from IRC to text :P
15:09<frosch123>bananas logic will be funny :p if they enter no version restrictions, it's compatible with everything. if they restrict it to "jgrpp >= 0.42.2", it will be unavailable for "official"
15:09<frosch123>if they enter "offical >= 12.0", what happens with "jgrpp"?
15:09<TrueBrain>or more fun: if you say official > 12.0, it might be JGRPP 0.43.0, for example :P
15:10<_dp_>would be nice if that could also be used for "branch" and version of compatible clients like cmclient or android build
15:11<TrueBrain>frosch123: guess we should send the "features available" instead of a version :P Solves *everything* :P
15:12<TrueBrain>maybe in bananas-frontend-web it should be a dropdown .. you either limit "official" or you limit "jgrpp" .. dunno
15:12<TrueBrain>bit tricky indeed :)
15:12<LordAro>_dp_: i don't follow how that would be relevant? if the client is compatible, it can't add new things
15:12<frosch123>jgrpp would send both (official, 12.0) , (jgrpp, 0.42.2), so it is fine
15:13<_dp_>LordAro, it's not directly relevant but it's a nice info to know for a server
15:13<_dp_>LordAro, for debugging purposes at the very least
15:13<LordAro>but i think that's a separate issue
15:13<frosch123>so, if you enter any version in bananas, it will be unavailable for all unlisted
15:13<frosch123>and clients have to send all branches they understand
15:14<TrueBrain>not sure this will be very clear to uploaders
15:14<TrueBrain>as "official" behaves differently from the others, from their perspective
15:14<TrueBrain>also not sure that is any issue :)
15:15<frosch123>we can also add checkboxes in addition to the editboxes
15:15<frosch123>so you can explicitly enter "does not work with any version", "works with all version", "works with specific version"
15:15<frosch123>for each branch
15:15<TrueBrain>I like that
15:15<frosch123>i think the API is fine. we just need someone to improve the GUI :p
15:16<TrueBrain>and a note for "official" that "jgrpp" als implies "official" or something
15:16<frosch123>ah, so a "same as 'offical'" option :p
15:21<TrueBrain>seems easy enough; and as 12.0 is changing plenty on network level, we might as well do this too
15:27<+glx>extending the packet looks good, empty list being compatible with old clients
15:29<TrueBrain>guess this is also a good time to migrate bananas-server to the new py-protocol :)
15:34<FLHerne>TrueBrain: adopt JGR's extended savegame format with tagged, sometimes optional, features, and then use the same feature list in BaNaNaS
15:35<frosch123>FLHerne: that may work for scenarios, but not for newgrf or gs
15:35<frosch123>FLHerne: but feel free to PR :)
15:36<frosch123>it would be a start
15:36<FLHerne>frosch123: Nearly any feature that a grf might depend on should also be in the savegame, surely
15:36<FLHerne>after all, grf state is stored in the savegame?
15:36<FLHerne>I suppose GS API might not necessarily be
15:41<nielsm>GRF is stateless except for the specific permanent registers (on towns, industries, not sure about vehicles?), which indeed are part of the savegame
15:41<nielsm>how much GS (and AI) saves depends entirely on the script author
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15:42<+glx>only name and version are always stored dor GS and AI
15:42<JGR>Thanks for your replies on the Bananas issue, that's very helpful :)
15:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #6503: Abnormalities in train subtile coordinates when reversing at the end of line
15:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] JGRennison commented on issue #105: Policy: Uploads which are not usable with main/trunk OpenTTD
16:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6503: Abnormalities in train subtile coordinates when reversing at the end of line
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16:10<_dp_>LordAro, yeah, I also thought of it, though 8/8 vehicles don't crash into water
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16:13<_dp_>may even be related to some weird signal bugs/crashes
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16:13<_dp_>vehicle movement is quite wonky in general
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16:16<LordAro>there's also the Samu PR somewhere that "corrects" road vehicle movement
16:16<LordAro>('"corrects"' because no one's really sure what it actually does)
16:17<+glx>it equalises the number of turn steps IIRC
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16:19<_dp_>movement logic should just not depend on subtile coords imo
16:20<_dp_>right now it mixes logic with visuals resulting in a mess
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16:25<Samu>"Deliver cargo to the closest industry first" - I actually prefer to deliver cargo to all industries in range
16:25<+glx>only first 2 get stuff
16:25<_dp_>Samu, that was never the case afaik
16:26<Samu>i had a PR that would make it deliver cargo randomly distributing piece by piece
16:26<_dp_>it's basically only good for firs
16:26<_dp_>and even that's kinda questionable
16:27<Samu>let me find
16:27<andythenorth>I was told that could never work but eh
16:31<Samu>a bit outdated, maybe i'll rebase
16:33<_dp_>Samu, I can't think of any case where that would be a desirable behaviour
16:38<FLHerne>definitely FIRS supplies
16:38<FLHerne>but doing it by default for all industries seems bad
16:39<FLHerne>or at least likely to break players' holy Workflows
16:39<_dp_>FLHerne, so if you rarely deliver a bit of supplies to multiple industries you prefer them to go to waste rather than boost one?
16:40<FLHerne>It's quite hard to have not enough supplies in FIRS :p
16:40<FLHerne>distributing them evenly and constantly is the hard part
16:41<FLHerne>and this would help with that
16:42<_dp_>one carousel can easily distibute everything evenly
16:42<_dp_>if one can figure out where they actually go from stations :p
16:45<_dp_>anyway, goal of that PR is to bring it back to how it was, not invent a perfect solution
16:45<_dp_>as it was clearly better than now and players were more or less used to id
16:47<+glx>yes the closest is easier to understand from a player pov
16:47<+glx>index just feels random because it's an internal value unknown for the player
16:48<Samu>just rebased, conflicts solved
16:49<Samu>can't push, why? :(
16:50<andythenorth>I didn't even notice it had changed
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16:53<Samu>i can't push, don't know what this error is
16:53<Samu>i want a force push
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16:54<Samu>nevermind, i guess it worked now
16:55<Samu>how do i delete the other?
16:56<Samu>i deleted via website, hope it's sufficient
16:59<Samu>still works, just tested, all industries receive their share
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22:07-!-Gustavo6046 is "Gustavo Rehermann <>" on #alpine-linux #openttd #llvm
22:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Budgie2021 opened issue #9537: No coal
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22:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Budgie2021 commented on issue #9537: No coal
23:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Budgie2021 closed issue #9537: No coal
23:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9537: No coal
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23:38-!-Gustavo6046 is "Gustavo Rehermann <>" on #alpine-linux #openttd #llvm
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 04 00:00:23 2021