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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-09-14

---Logopened Tue Sep 14 00:00:37 2021
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06:48<Samu>omg, what are the odds of this happening? https://i.imgur.com/rhIxkK3.png
06:48<Samu>house growth on that tile made the ship become stuck
06:51<Timberwolf>This has been happening to me a bit in my West Country 90201 game, where I have ships in the little channel between Bristol and Clifton and houses keep getting foundationed into the water.
06:51<Timberwolf>It's obviously a lot more common in a channel, because the ship doesn't have to be on the tile to get blocked.
06:54<LordAro>how is it blocked there? can't ships approach/leave from multiple directions?
06:56<Samu>i think i had a patch to prevent this from happening, have to search for it
06:57<Samu>but not sure if it would detect this edge case
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07:07<andythenorth>Timberwolf I hope you have included the Clifton Rocks Railway
07:07<andythenorth>oh we don't have 'underground funicular'
07:07<andythenorth>hmm
07:23<Samu>here it is, rebased to todays https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...SamuXarick:EnsureNoShipFromDiagDirs?expand=1
07:23<Samu>testing it
07:24<Samu>it was so old it still had NULL's
07:39<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mwkaicz opened issue #9554: [Bug]: Signal Lights logic problem https://git.io/JuQHR
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07:53<FLHerne>Timberwolf: yours is https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/9317
07:54<FLHerne>Samu's is a bit different, because it's not blocking access in general, just that particular ship
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08:25<Samu>debug mode with ai running is slow :(
08:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9554: [Bug]: Signal Lights logic problem https://git.io/JuQHR
08:30<+glx>debug mode is slow without any ai for me
08:31<Samu>10 more years
08:40<Samu>2 more years
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08:48<Samu>it triggered! it works!
08:48<Samu>house isn't built
08:57<Samu>it's been rejected in the past https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6935
08:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mwkaicz commented on issue #9554: [Bug]: Signal Lights logic problem https://git.io/JuQHR
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10:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Strudders79 opened issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup https://git.io/Ju7Da
10:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Strudders79 commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup https://git.io/Ju7Da
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11:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup https://git.io/Ju7Da
11:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup https://git.io/Ju7Da
11:13<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup https://git.io/Ju7Da
11:14<LordAro>i suppose it's not worth it to try to blacklist that driver?
11:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Strudders79 commented on issue #9555: [Crash]: Fatal Application Failure on startup https://git.io/Ju7Da
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12:09<Samu>road to 5000's https://i.imgur.com/WLIiqhm.png
12:10<Samu>already 5000 aircraft in some companies
12:10<Samu>ships are harder to mass though
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12:54<andythenorth>yo
12:55<andythenorth>so OpenGFX needs uploading to bananas https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX#46-making-an-opengfx-release
12:55<andythenorth>seems I can do that on my bananas account
12:58<LordAro>https://twitter.com/peter_szilagyi/status/1437646118700175360
12:58<LordAro>"Between the 3 Sept and 10 Sept, secure env vars of *all* public @travisci repositories were injected into PR builds. Signing keys, access creds, API tokens."
12:58<LordAro>oh dear.
12:59<andythenorth>oh dear
13:00<andythenorth>hmm I need the opengfx artefact
13:00<andythenorth>to upload to bananas
13:02<LordAro>andythenorth: https://www.openttd.org/downloads/opengfx-releases/latest.html
13:02<LordAro>i'm not actually sure whether that's linked to from anywhere
13:02<andythenorth>I was trying to guess urls :)
13:03<andythenorth>hmm the zip isn't accepted by bananas
13:05<andythenorth>maybe it needs tared
13:13<andythenorth>oh dear :)
13:13<LordAro>is there not a reasonable error message?
13:13<andythenorth>Could not recognise this file; possibly the extension is wrong
13:13<andythenorth>the zip contains a tar
13:14<andythenorth>but if I unzip the tar on the mac, macos unpacks the tar then deletes it
13:14<LordAro>lol.
13:14<andythenorth>so I don't get the tar file to upload to bananas
13:14<andythenorth>anyone got winzip? :P
13:14<LordAro>`unzip foo.zip`
13:14<LordAro>from your nearest terminal
13:16<andythenorth>"Something failed, sorry for the inconvenience"
13:16<andythenorth>(bananas)
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13:17<andythenorth>I am good at breaking bananas
13:18<andythenorth>dare I ping TB? :P
13:19<LordAro>if you've caused an exception, he already has been :p
13:21<andythenorth>FIRS also wasn't bananas compatible for ages :P
13:21<andythenorth>it's quite lol that opengfx isn't though :)
13:28<+glx>you're good at breaking anything ;)
13:29<andythenorth>I could have had a career in QA
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13:36<TrueBrain>lol, you broke configparser
13:36<TrueBrain>that is impressive
13:36<+glx>haha
13:37<+glx>nothing unbreakable
13:37<TrueBrain>One of the translations fails parsing
13:37<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] georgyel opened issue #252: [bg_BG] Translator access request https://git.io/Ju5Rh
13:42<TrueBrain>IT IS NOT ME! \o/
13:42<TrueBrain>OpenGFX fucked up :P
13:42<TrueBrain>I would guess the release doesn't even load in-game?
13:43<+glx>oh so nmlc accepted broken stuff ?
13:43<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/lang/latvian.lng <- someone added cases
13:43<TrueBrain>and .. that ... is processed weirdly
13:43<TrueBrain>https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/ee87fca8b834edad7346e83fb2386d34
13:43<TrueBrain>creates that in the obg file
13:43<TrueBrain>which is not a valid ini file anymore :)
13:44<TrueBrain>(updated gist, removed "^M")
13:44<+glx>oh ^M is \n
13:44<TrueBrain>ignore that, that is my bad
13:44<TrueBrain>updated, to give more context to the file
13:44<+glx>ha it's not an nmlc bug
13:44<TrueBrain>so you can easier spot what is wrong
13:44<+glx>(that's nice)
13:45<TrueBrain>I am happy we all found who not to blame :D
13:45<+glx>guess it's Makefile or a script called by Makefile
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13:46<TrueBrain>so I can fix the BaNaNaS bug, but the fix is to refuse the upload :)
13:46<+glx>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/scripts/translations.sh <-- probably this one has a bug
13:47<TrueBrain>I would also consider it a bug that eints allows to make cases for OpenGFX :P
13:47<TrueBrain>doubt that is useful :)
13:48<TrueBrain>"# make sure that we only write sensible stuff" <- how cute
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13:49<andythenorth>did we decide it was my fault?
13:49<+glx>I wonder how STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION.kas can pass validation, it doesn't match the original string format I think
13:50<+glx>oh there's no "special" commands, only colors and newline, and they are ignored
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13:50<+glx>because they don't use any parameters
13:51<TrueBrain>anyway, I guess nobody actually tested if OpenGFX works ingame? :D
13:51<TrueBrain>found something to blame on andythenorth \o/ :P <3
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13:55<andythenorth>I think I declared that recently :P
13:55<andythenorth>compile works, must be ok right?
13:57<+glx>ok confirmed it's translations.sh
13:57<+glx>will look into it later
14:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9553: Change: Add configurable docking tile occupied penalty for NPF and YAPF https://git.io/Ju5av
14:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #9553: Change: Add configurable docking tile occupied penalty for NPF and YAPF https://git.io/JuSip
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14:03<FLHerne>TrueBrain: In OpenTTD timescales, 18 months is pretty recent
14:04<FLHerne>That's still "last release", isn't it?
14:04<FLHerne>maybe n+1
14:04<TrueBrain>"pretty recent" I would have accepted ;)
14:04<FLHerne>Also, I don't get the objection
14:05<FLHerne>pretty much every pathfinder cost for every transport mode is configurable
14:05<FLHerne>including ones that no-one could ever want to change
14:05<FLHerne>except that one, for some reason
14:05<FLHerne>which someone _does_ want to change
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14:07<FLHerne>It's a few lines of boilerplate code that Samu's already written, what's the cost?
14:07<TrueBrain>round round we go
14:07<TrueBrain>I sometimes wonder if we get dizzy ;)
14:07<TrueBrain>but the general rule is: we do not add settings unless there is a good reason
14:07<TrueBrain>1 person wanting a setting, is not that reason :)
14:08<TrueBrain>hence the last point, if someone can argue a good reason, we can look at it
14:08<TrueBrain>and the cost is not zero, as the PR has some rough edges that needs fixing, etc etc
14:08<TrueBrain>but by all means, pick it up, clean it up, give a good motivation, and lets goooooo
14:09<FLHerne>How are you supposed to know if anyone else cares if you insta-close it?
14:09<FLHerne>and no, clearly that hasn't been the policy for these config-only settings
14:09<FLHerne>Why would anyone ever want to set the buoy penalty to not 2
14:09<FLHerne>no-one has ever done that, nor will they ever
14:09<TrueBrain>you are arguing with the wrong person. If you feel strongly about this, please comment in the PR, make a good motivation, clean it up, and everything is possible
14:10<FLHerne>I didn't even know there *was* a buoy penalty
14:10<TrueBrain>since I picked up OpenTTD in 2020 I have been told 10000 times not to add settings unless REALLY needed
14:10<FLHerne>well, I only know about the PR because I was skimming the IRC log
14:10<_dp_>it's hard to give any motivation for pathfinder settings as ideally no one should ever touch them
14:11<_dp_>except mb for developing and debugging
14:11<FLHerne>It's only been there 24 hours, and now it's closed which means no-one will ever see it again
14:11<_dp_>otherwise it'll get pretty weird and confusing if everyone starts to run their own setitngs
14:11<FLHerne>Yeah, I think the main purpose is to experiment with possible better defaults
14:12<FLHerne>or people who want to really micromanage their trains as always
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14:13<Xaroth>Messing with the PF is tricky even if you know what you're doing
14:14<Xaroth>adding random settings to the PF is asking for tons of people making random suggestions on how to "fix" everything by tweaking settings that don't do what they think they do.
14:14<FLHerne>TrueBrain: I don't have a strong opinion about the value of the setting, but I have an opinion against making one thing arbitrarily different from the others
14:14<FLHerne>all the equivalent PF costs are settings, so it's weird that this one isn't
14:14<TrueBrain>I would agree with you if he made ALL penalties a setting
14:14<FLHerne>and given the other recent changes added them, that seems more like an oversight than a deliberate choice
14:14<TrueBrain>he picked this one for a reason, and it is not the one you think ;)
14:15<FLHerne>Not everyone who supports something has to have the same reason :p
14:15<TrueBrain>again, people are free to motivate why they want to have it :)
14:16<TrueBrain>but "I do not understand how the pathfinder works, and changing this value 'fixes my issue'" is the real motivation here :)
14:16<TrueBrain>(feel free to browse the IRC logs back the last few weeks to understand why :D)
14:17<FLHerne>Playing with settings can improve one's knowledge of what they do
14:17<TrueBrain>and he has been doing that a lot already :)
14:17<TrueBrain>doesn't need to be a setting to toy with it!
14:17<FLHerne>I know there's that silly maximum-cost bug
14:18<TrueBrain>but in this specific case, we indeed have been looking into if/how we can remove all pf settings
14:18<TrueBrain>as it is more pain than gain
14:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Ju5rP
14:21<_aD>A closed issue doesn't disappear and doesn't necessarily mute any dissenting voices.
14:21<FLHerne>^ I love that one
14:21<_aD>The number of options in the game already makes my head spin and I've been playing it for longer than I can remember.
14:22<TrueBrain>there is a reason why we follow "do not add settings unless really needed" :P
14:22<TrueBrain>during TTDp everything became a setting
14:22<_aD>Amen.
14:22<_aD>Presumably if one is that advanced a player, making changes to the code is a plausible alternative?
14:24<TrueBrain>worded differently: "is there an audience for this setting?", is what I often wonder
14:24<_aD>It's valid to take into account how well-informed the audience is, too.
14:24<TrueBrain>but talking about PRs and opinions, as having PRs open for a long time doesn't mean anyone voices an opinion, how do we rate: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/9325 ?
14:24<_aD>If many of them want a change because of a misunderstanding, that diminishes the validity of their wishes.
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14:30<TrueBrain>codewise I am fine with that PR, and I do not see a reason not to accept it. But I wish we could collect some opinions on these things easier
14:30<TrueBrain>they now often sit for months, without input
14:31<TrueBrain>we really need a monthly stream with "rate my PR" section :P
14:31<_dp_>9325 feels like it tries to make it look a bit more like routes without actually making routes
14:32<TrueBrain>yup. It is a bit of a start towards that
14:32<_dp_>but it's burried so deep in the ui that it's kinda irrelevant
14:32<_dp_>I'd rather see actual routes
14:32<TrueBrain>doesn't seem to hurt existing workflows
14:32<TrueBrain>I rather see a lot of things; but sometimes we have to take what we have :D
14:32<TrueBrain>it might motivate him to continue this line of work
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14:32<TrueBrain>s/him/them/
14:33<_dp_>well, yeah, I guess...
14:34<_dp_>it's just that I'm personally probably never going to use that feature so have no particular opinion
14:34<_aD>For that one it seems that the submitter isn't grouping as they should. If I want to clone a train I am not immediately near I go Trains->Group->Clone one
14:35<andythenorth>PR stream!
14:36<TrueBrain>_aD: I think the motivation kinda explains that, that they are looking at a station window
14:36<_aD>I guess so, but it's still only Trains->Group->Clone from there...
14:37<TrueBrain>and finding back the station you are at :)
14:37<TrueBrain>from what I understand, but please correct me if you see it differently, you are at a station with a surplus
14:37<TrueBrain>and you want to scale up
14:37<andythenorth>have we reached the limit yet of piling up things on sand? :)
14:38<TrueBrain>going via Trains means you have to find the station back, I think?
14:38<TrueBrain>(or the group you assigned to this line, ofc)
14:39<_aD>Ah by Trains I mean the overall Trains window, not the one for a specific station.
14:39<TrueBrain>exactly
14:39<TrueBrain>sorry, I assumed you meant that :D
14:39<_aD>so the station window stays as it is, one opens trains, clicks the group, clicks clone?
14:39<TrueBrain>how do you quickly find the group?
14:40<_aD>heh, I guess I play at a smaller scale, or more organised, than the OP.
14:40<TrueBrain>:)
14:40<_aD>I give my group names useful labels (albeit silly, because silly town is best town)
14:40<TrueBrain>I find these PRs always a bit difficult .. fully aware only a small amount of players will discover the functionality on one hand
14:40<_aD>Tanglewood Rapidfire Limes
14:41<TrueBrain>on the other hand .. it might finally cause someone to tackle this issue :P
14:41<_aD>Yeah, discovery is a big deal in a game without a walk-through.
14:41<TrueBrain>but I do not like this PR has been open for this long .. and it gained 0 input in all those months .. hmm
14:41<TrueBrain>toss-up?
14:42<_aD>If no-one's even given it a +1 does that speak for itself?
14:42<_aD>Or is that a poor metric for the audience?
14:42<TrueBrain>if that was a KPI, I can close most PRs :)
14:42<_aD>heh
14:42<_aD>You're welcome!
14:43<TrueBrain>there is a really low engagement on PRs :)
14:43<_aD>Weird how some folk will write acres of arguments but the next day won't +1 something they like the look of.
14:44<TrueBrain>GitHub is trying different things to get this done
14:44<TrueBrain>but it is really difficult
14:44<_dp_>_aD, wait, how do you even clone on a group? cloning needs a depot
14:44<TrueBrain>even Discussions are .. so-so
14:44<_aD>_dp_: I assumed the user has a depot open, since they weren't mentioned
14:44<_dp_>ah
14:44<TrueBrain>but yeah, we really need "routes" over orders
14:44<_aD>TrueBrain: I guess that's the problem with decentralised communities.
14:44<TrueBrain>as this becomes senseless ..
14:44<_aD>Moar ActivityPub.
14:45<TrueBrain>I still wonder if we can promote voting on PRs or something .. dunno
14:45<_aD>OpenTTD seems to feature-complete to me, I wouldn't think to look at PRs.
14:45<_aD>s/to/so/
14:45<TrueBrain>it kinda is, but yet it isn't
14:46<TrueBrain>I was hoping adding "Preview" would really help
14:46<TrueBrain>but it really hasn't
14:46<_aD>Also for something like that specific PR, I wouldn't -1 it because I'm aware that people play at different scales.
14:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Ju5iD
14:47<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
14:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9325: Feature: Ctrl-Click on vehicle list in GB_SHARED_ORDERS opens order window https://git.io/Ju5iS
14:47<TrueBrain>so we have 2 ~0, basically
14:47<TrueBrain>I myself am also ~0
14:47<TrueBrain>so lets approve it
14:47<FLHerne>TrueBrain: 9325 would be really useful for me
14:48<FLHerne>[sorry, I went to the shop before it closes in 10mins]
14:48<TrueBrain>owh, a +1, well, that settles it even more :)
14:48<TrueBrain>FLHerne: I appreciate the opinion :)
14:49<FLHerne>Also, I kind of agree with _dp_ that (a) it's a step toward unifying groups and orders (b) actually doing that would be great
14:49<FLHerne>but in the meantime this is better than the status quo
14:50<TrueBrain>"Returns false when a buoy was placed on the tile." <- this is the wrong tense, not?
14:50<FLHerne>*shared orders
14:50<TrueBrain>(as in, it suggests it no longer has to be placed on the tile)
14:51<FLHerne>Is that a function that places a buoy?
14:51<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/Ju5PZ
14:51<TrueBrain>let me just add it to the PR, makes it easier for more-native-english-speakers to disagree with me :D
14:51<FLHerne>I'd read it with its presumably-intended meaning, but I can see why it might be confusing
14:52<FLHerne>Ah, that isn't what it is
14:52<FLHerne>so yes I agree with you
14:53<FLHerne>Also, that feels like a needless gotcha
14:53<FLHerne>It's a brand-new function, can't it just not have a weird unintuitive special-case
14:53<TrueBrain>it kinda is
14:53<FLHerne>I should comment on the PR
14:53<TrueBrain>it is not a brand new function
14:53<TrueBrain>it is an existing one
14:54<TrueBrain>the function should have been called: IsClearWaterTile, I guess :)
14:54<TrueBrain>also returns false for docks, and .... :P
14:54<TrueBrain>but I get why it can be weird
14:54<TrueBrain>it is funny how we just flipped roles :D
14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick dismissed a review for pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/JuyGg
14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/JLnqJ
14:57<FLHerne>Oh, right, I just spotted that while trying to write a comment
14:58<FLHerne>False for docks makes sense, you can't sail through them
14:58<FLHerne>how about ship depots?
14:58<TrueBrain>I would assume it is only True on clear tiles
14:58<TrueBrain>which might be the better way to explain this
14:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/Ju5XG
14:58<TrueBrain>but we can spend hours on making the wording better .. maybe we should just do a pass some day over all the documentation
14:59<TrueBrain>(I spotted many more issues .. for example the lack of "iff" :P)
14:59<TrueBrain>sometimes I touch these things, look at it close, and go: step away now .. sllloooowwwwllllyyyyy
15:00<andythenorth>most things everywhere are....awful
15:00<andythenorth>and yet the world keeps singing along just fine
15:01<_dp_>landscape stuff and water in particular is such a mess...
15:01<_dp_>there is MP_WATER and there is ... not MP_WATER with hacked in water flags %)
15:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9531: [Crash]: Switching between monitors in fullscreen https://git.io/JEb77
15:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #9531: [Crash]: Switching between monitors in fullscreen https://git.io/JEb77
15:04<_aD>MP_DAMP
15:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Ju51l
15:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/Ju51u
15:10<Samu>heh, the problem with water tiles....
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15:11<Samu>nothing is as obvious, needs to be tested out for sure
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15:11<Samu>I added to regression tests for those cases where there's ship depots, buoys, etc
15:13<Samu>https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/43006711/104127729-b6447080-535b-11eb-9bbb-496ac9534821.png
15:14<Samu>regression tests IsWaterTile() IsRiverTile() IsCanalTile() IsCoastTile() in all those tiles in the screenshot
15:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on discussion #9551: Vehicle orders GUI: Learning from other games https://git.io/JuKCH
15:15<Samu>oh, IsSeaTile() too
15:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Ju5Mx
15:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Ju5Dt
15:19<TrueBrain>Samu: not sure what others think, but I fully expected the icon to remain even after the route was fixed .. that is just how OpenTTD works :D
15:19<TrueBrain>the news also remains despite the route being fixed
15:19<TrueBrain>for me that really is not an issue .. but others might disagree :)
15:20<TrueBrain>having some indication is already widely better than nothing, even if it can be there while the route is fixed :)
15:20<TrueBrain>the only solution I can think of, is if we change to a type of pathfinder where we calculate the track "tree", so we know what is connected to where in a graph
15:21<TrueBrain>and a change to a junction can update instant
15:21<TrueBrain>but ... that is not something that will happen this year :P
15:23<FLHerne>TrueBrain: I think it's a bug that the news doesn't vanish too
15:24<FLHerne>but yeah, even with this bug it's a big improvement
15:24<TrueBrain>it is a missing feature, I agree :P
15:24<TrueBrain>just a strong limitation of the pathfinder
15:24<Timberwolf>Sanity check - https://i.imgur.com/4vn27qb.png - in PBS (pbs.cpp line 448) the train in red won't reserve a path to the signal unless that highlighted tile has no reservations. Am I correct in thinking this is because a train can unreserve the tile it's leaving while the last wagon is still partially in the tile, so to get a truly safe waiting place you need the tile *beyond* the one you want to stop
15:24<Timberwolf>in to be free?
15:25<_dp_>train stops being lost when it finds a path, not when tracks are "fixed", train may be on the other side of the map by that point
15:25<_dp_>also would be very helpful if it also showed somewhere exact tile where it became lost
15:25<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: asking the real questions, aren't we
15:25<_dp_>but, yeah, any indication is better than no idication
15:26<FLHerne>Timberwolf: I think it's more that there's no distinction between different reservations
15:26<FLHerne>a track bit is either reserved or not
15:27<Timberwolf>Right, so you don't know if it's reserved because something is trying to enter that tile, and you might get a crash if you don't stop before it.
15:27<FLHerne>so if it was allowed to reserve a path, they'd effectively merge into one long reservation and your trains would crash
15:27<FLHerne>(this is a good way to crash things when doing build-while-paused)
15:27<Timberwolf>Ah! So if I'm guessing correct, you need a break between reservations for a train to know this is "my" reservation?
15:28<FLHerne>I think so?
15:28<FLHerne>but maybe it's what you said :p
15:28<FLHerne>ask someone competent
15:28<TrueBrain>Timberwolf: I think we all say the same here, but worded differently: that yellow train could be standing still, and reverse, and if the red train would wait for the highlighted tile, it can crash into each other, I think.
15:28<FLHerne>maybe what we both said
15:29<Timberwolf>Yep, I've definitely observed that if the trains are in certain positions when reversing if you change that check.
15:29<TrueBrain>which is one of those quirks in OpenTTD
15:29<TrueBrain>that even without leaving your tile, you can crash into a train on another tile
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15:29<TrueBrain>many of those issues have been fixed over the years
15:29<TrueBrain>doubt they all have been fixed :P
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15:30<TrueBrain>so I -assume- the "needs to be an unreserved tile between" is because of that
15:30<Timberwolf>That's consistent with what I've seen playing around.
15:30<TrueBrain>huge assumption, mind you :)
15:30<TrueBrain>it could have used a comment :P
15:31<_dp_>there is also that thing with signals that they're placed on a tile, not between
15:31<TrueBrain>I believe the issue is, a red light prevents a train from entering a tile. Ideal, you would stop it like 2 or 3 pixels before that
15:31<_dp_>so there is no clear distiction when train actually passes the signal
15:31<_dp_>makes reversing and stuff trickier
15:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Ju5yS
15:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Ju5y9
15:34<TrueBrain>cheers Samu
15:35<TrueBrain>just imagine if we change that trains stop a few pixels before signals .. how many savegames will just blow up :D
15:35<TrueBrain>too bad these kind of changes are nearly impossible to make now after-the-fact :)
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15:36<FLHerne>well, you could add a setting and apply it only to new games
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15:36<TrueBrain>:P
15:36<FLHerne>but then OTTD would have to implement the old behaviour forever
15:36<TrueBrain>so much irony in that comment :D I love it :)
15:36<_dp_>just switch to 3d map :p
15:36<TrueBrain>and yeah, technical debt is a thing :)
15:36<FLHerne>and you only *just* deleted the 1. from the version
15:36<_dp_>not that it will fix anything but noone will notice these tiny bugs amid the huge ones xD
15:36<TrueBrain>I really considered making TrueTTD (not with that name :P), which just removes a shitton of old code
15:36<TrueBrain>which is NOT backwards compatible with ALL savegames
15:37<TrueBrain>so removing NPF etc
15:37<TrueBrain>just .. because ... it becomes so impossible to maintain all that crap :P
15:37<FLHerne>You could probably do that now
15:37<FLHerne>There have been 'game-breaking' changes before for people relying on particularly niche things
15:38<_dp_>openttd 2.0, oh, wait... :p
15:38<TrueBrain>I think I had enough people yelling at me for 1 year, thank you very much :)
15:39<FLHerne>I mean, if you keep interpreting the version as semver, 7.0 is the first release in a decade that's allowed to break everything
15:39<_dp_>I'd very much like to see all the old crap gone but not the one I'm still using xDD
15:39<TrueBrain>FLHerne: lol
15:40<TrueBrain>and seriously: fuck semver :P
15:40<TrueBrain>the idea is nice for libraries
15:40<TrueBrain>anything else ... I just don't understand it
15:40<TrueBrain>I really do not
15:40<TrueBrain>"I added this cool new feature .. wait, I cannot bump the major, as it is not a breaking change ... HOLD MY BEER"
15:43<FLHerne>TrueBrain: How about you just delete everything, but bundle an OTTD 1.12.x executable with every build
15:43<FLHerne>and swap between them when loading old saves
15:43<FLHerne>There are definitely enterprise applications that do this :D
15:43<_dp_>2 games for same price! xD
15:44<TrueBrain>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7981
15:44<TrueBrain>that could honestly solve that issue for sure :)
15:45<TrueBrain>right, enough OpenTTD for one evening .. few things left for 12.0 milestone
15:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] georgyel closed issue #252: [bg_BG] Translator access request https://git.io/Ju5Rh
15:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/team] georgyel commented on issue #252: [bg_BG] Translator access request https://git.io/Ju5Rh
15:47<TrueBrain>lol, that is a first :)
15:53<FLHerne>I wonder why
15:55<_dp_>hm, I just thought of an interesting idea - make core game mechanics modular and swappable, so one could use latest ui but keep old mechanics for an old save or game mode
15:55<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/Ju5Hu
15:55<_dp_>may be more trouble than it's worth though
15:56<TrueBrain>WASM plugin system? Wait, we are going in circles :P
15:56<_dp_>who's going in circles? I never went anywhere from the WASM :p
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15:58<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9556: Fix: add back 'Spectate' option to company toolbar menu https://git.io/Ju5HF
15:58<TrueBrain>I was browsing through JGRPP; so useful sometimes :)
15:59<TrueBrain>wtf @ that table Samu
15:59<TrueBrain>I understand your note even more now
15:59<TrueBrain>like, seriously, wtf have we been smoking
16:00<TrueBrain>tnx for doing that work!
16:01<_dp_>that table seems to miss MP_INDUSTRY, MP_STATION and MP_OBJECT that can also have water class...
16:02<TrueBrain>I think Samu showed sufficiently it is a mess :) Not sure we need to pile it further :P
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16:02<_dp_>well, I knew that even without a table :p
16:03<TrueBrain>the beauty of writing things down .. now lots of people can read up on it :)
16:04<_dp_>it's actualy even more of a mess if you look at it from newgrf pov
16:04<_dp_>there is stuff like OBJ_FLAG_DRAW_WATER that only works for full water tiles...
16:04<TrueBrain>hmm .. is #8390 a Feature or an Add .. hmm
16:05<TrueBrain>seems Add is most common for these changes
16:06<TrueBrain>Samu: name a number between 1 and 2
16:06<Samu>2
16:06<TrueBrain>Feature it is
16:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/JLnqJ
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16:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9543: Feature #9523: Display icon or text in vehicle list or in vehicle window indicating whether a vehicle is lost https://git.io/Juq19
16:10<TrueBrain>that PR is just really cool, really happy we have that now
16:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #9523: [Bug]: "ship is lost" is only reported via news https://git.io/JEimw
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16:13<TrueBrain>hmm .. #9524 is very difficult to verify ..
16:13<TrueBrain>would be nice to have for 12.0
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16:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9398: Fix: [Squirrel] Enforce comma usage in function calls https://git.io/Ju55I
16:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 opened pull request #74: Fix: ignore cases in translations https://git.io/Ju55R
16:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9011: Feature: make NewGRF active list react on key presses https://git.io/Ju550
16:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #74: Fix: ignore cases in translations https://git.io/Ju55g
16:21<TrueBrain>YOLO approve best approve, right?
16:21<+glx>at least I ran the script in wsl and output seems correct (better than before)
16:22<TrueBrain>\o/
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16:23<+glx>I wonder if obg generation in openttd is also broken for cases
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16:27<TrueBrain>OpenMSX, OpenSFX, ... :D
16:27<TrueBrain>guess after release 7.1, we should pull 7.0 from the CDN? Don't know what OpenTTD actual does with a broken ini file honestly
16:29<TrueBrain>right, poked discord for the title screen competition
16:30<TrueBrain>"You got a thumbs up rating on the announcement simply by using the word 'thrice' Bravo!" <- I love Steam :)
16:31<TrueBrain>https://steamcommunity.com/app/1536610/discussions/0/3040481812849433604/
16:31<TrueBrain>:D
16:31<Samu>nice, I can finally get CANAL cost for my AI
16:31<TrueBrain>\o/
16:31<Samu>beta3 soon?
16:33<TrueBrain>I think we go to RC soon
16:34<TrueBrain>few more bugs to fix .. still hoping someone picks up the language one :)
16:34<TrueBrain>and we need to look into the reservation bug and depots
16:35<TrueBrain>and find a good way to validate #9524 and #9410 .. which is difficult, as that touches parts of the code that are scary
16:37<+glx>openttd doesn't mind the wrong obg
16:38<+glx>just tested
16:38<_dp_>lol, what's so special about word 'thrice'?
16:38<_dp_>I just used the first word that came to mind xD
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16:41<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pulls/SamuXarick down to 9
16:43<Samu>#8514 is not missing intention btw
16:45<Samu>#7918 was updated recently in august, I think it's now in a much saner state
16:46<Samu>#8398 is meh... I can live without it, just me minor nitpicking at something
16:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8390: Add: [AI/GS] Missing water related functions and objects https://git.io/Ju5N2
16:48<_aD>Samu: 9461 permantent rivers is an intersting one. I always try to preserve them for aesthetic reasons and like the idea that one has to bomb them to remove them.
16:48<_aD>(I do not advise putting tents on rivers, permanent or otherwise)
16:51<_aD>TrueBrain: "An alternative I can imagine, is that we do some fluid-mechanics"
16:51*andythenorth removes rivers as policy
16:51<_aD>Oh boy, there be dragons.
16:51*_aD removes policies with rivers
16:51<andythenorth>they're just in the way
16:52<_aD>I am a bit of a masochist and like them for the challenge.
16:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 merged pull request #74: Fix: ignore cases in translations https://git.io/Ju55R
16:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: Of course they're in the way that's the point :p
16:54<andythenorth>we what now?
16:54<andythenorth>they're just there for boats no?
16:55<_dp_>I don't like that 8461 makes them more annoying even with setting off
16:55<andythenorth>such boats
16:55<_dp_>othewise looks like an interesting feature I planned to try making rivers permanent myself
16:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: nah, they're a bit useless for boats IMO
16:56<FLHerne>I keep trying with those little narrowboat things in squid
16:56<_dp_>yeah, since boats can't climb them
16:56<FLHerne>but they never go where I want
16:56<andythenorth>you had me a "they're a bit useless" :)
16:56<FLHerne>and adding locks is expensive
16:56<FLHerne>so their main purpose is to make building railway lines more difficult
16:56<andythenorth>and occupies too much space
16:56<andythenorth>locks are 3 tiles
16:56<andythenorth>such bad idea
16:56<FLHerne>which is good, because I like having to build railway lines around things
16:57<FLHerne>Perhaps boats should be able to set a "can climb slopes" flag?
16:57<FLHerne>then little ones could have it
16:57<FLHerne>but then players would be even more confused than they already are
16:57<FLHerne>probably bad feature
16:58<Samu>:)
16:58<andythenorth>boats on rapids
16:59<andythenorth>FTW
16:59<andythenorth>patch for next livestream pls
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17:05<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 opened pull request #42: Codechange: apply same chnages as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5xr
17:06<_aD>how can Ubuntu make core dumping so difficult?
17:06<_aD>It's all meant to be so simple!
17:07<andythenorth>oof so sleep
17:07<andythenorth>such needed
17:07<andythenorth>much tired
17:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 updated pull request #42: Codechange: apply same chnages as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5xr
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17:13<+michi_cc>Timberwolf: Bit late, but yes, reservations may not touch as e.g. trains driving at each other might otherwise cancel the reservation of the other train.
17:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #42: Codechange: apply same chnages as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5pR
17:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 commented on pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5pX
17:16<_dp_>michi_cc, can't that be fixed with just one extra bit marking final reservation tiles?
17:16<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 updated pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5xr
17:17<+michi_cc>_dp_: PR's welcome, but making that fool-proof in all cases included mixed path/block signals and stuff is hard.
17:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] TrueBrain approved pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5pd
17:18<_aD>I seem to be following a list of unhelpful guides to get a stacktrace, would anyone care to point me in the right direction?
17:19<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenSFX] glx22 merged pull request #42: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5xr
17:26<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenMSX] glx22 opened pull request #23: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5hA
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17:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9398: Fix: [Squirrel] Enforce comma usage in function calls https://git.io/Judvm
17:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed pull request #9398: Fix: [Squirrel] Enforce comma usage in function calls https://git.io/JnFcs
17:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenMSX] TrueBrain approved pull request #23: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Judvu
17:53<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenMSX] glx22 merged pull request #23: Codechange: apply same changes as OpenGFX#74 https://git.io/Ju5hA
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 15 00:00:38 2021