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#openttd IRC Logs for 2021-11-25

---Logopened Thu Nov 25 00:00:18 2021
00:07-!-D-HUND is now known as debdog
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01:21<TrueBrain>Dropping local server detection because one user is confused, nice :D
01:21<TrueBrain>Hihi, childish of me :p
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02:37<LordAro>TrueBrain: yeah, they asked nicely
02:37<LordAro>take the opportunity to improve documentation ;)
02:59<@peter1138>Hmm
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05:22<@peter1138>Fucksake
05:22<@peter1138>One of my VS Code plugins is telling me it's "black friday" :(
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05:49<LordAro>peter1138: sounds like it's asking to be uninstalled
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07:20<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9715: [Bug]: Houses try to produce and receive Mail, even when no Mail cargo type exists in GRF https://git.io/J1jHy
07:22<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9714: [Bug]: Town GUI shows amount of Mail produced and transported, even when no Mail cargo type exists in GRF https://git.io/J1j9J
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11:36<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #9029: Error message opening nowhere near my mouse https://git.io/JOquh
11:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #9030: Global story book opens on top of company story book https://git.io/JOqgs
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13:25<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9029: Error message opening nowhere near my mouse https://git.io/JOquh
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13:54<Andres_>Hello good afternoon
13:56<nielsm>hi
13:59<Andres_>I have recently gotten into the game and just stumbled upon the JGR patchpack, and I am a bit confused as to how one goes about it
14:00<Andres_>From looking around I've figured there's no real 'install' to be done? It's just a separate instance of the game altogether?
14:01<nielsm>yeah it's just the game files and that's it
14:01<Andres_>I guess the real question would be if there is a way to make that the 'default' game
14:02<nielsm>I'm not sure how JGR's handles the config files, if it will share with the main version if you run both
14:02<Andres_>Err, replace Steam files or whatever, you know what I mean?
14:02<nielsm>nah don't try that, steam will overwrite it
14:02<Andres_>Oh dear
14:03<Andres_>And is there a way to export my NewGRF's over easily? O should I just look for them again?
14:03<nielsm>rather, in steam to to the Games menu at the very top, then there's an option to "Add a non-Steam game to library"
14:03<Andres_>Yeah I will do that instead, but I think it's better off with Steam gone to be honest
14:03<nielsm>I'm quite sure JGR's will use the same user data folder, i.e. you won't even need to copy or move anything for it to find all your existing content downloads etc
14:04<Andres_>Oh interesting! So it should be as simple as downloading the files and dropping them on my drive somewhere
14:04<nielsm>yep
14:04<Andres_>Thank you very much for your guidance nielsm
14:06<nielsm>if you do want to keep it separate, you can make an install that runs as "portable"
14:07<nielsm>you do that by putting an openttd.cfg file in the same folder as openttd.exe
14:07<nielsm>then it'll use that config file instead, and put all user data in subfolders of the one with the exe file
14:07<nielsm>(assuming Windows here)
14:08<Andres_>Yes Windows
14:09<Andres_>However I think keeping it all together will be best, as I don't plan on switching versions. Only reason I found JGR's is because I wanted to modify some annoyances out of the game in the first place, and it seems they are all addressed and some
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14:11<supermop_Home>yo
14:12<Andres_>o/
14:15<andythenorth>yo
14:15<andythenorth>also bye
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14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #9715: [Bug]: Houses try to produce and receive Mail, even when no Mail cargo type exists in GRF https://git.io/J1jHy
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15:19<@peter1138>Am I going to have to get my VS Code out again?
15:23<LordAro>yes
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15:27<TrueBrain>you rageclosed it after seeing the black friday ad?
15:27<TrueBrain>:D
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15:37<andythenorth>so
15:37<andythenorth>anybody ever bought backups-as-a-service?
15:38<andythenorth>does £400k / annum for backing up 200 VMs sound reasonable?
15:38<LordAro>something like backblaze? or do you mean something else?
15:38<andythenorth>VMs are 100GB each
15:38<andythenorth>Veeam and friends
15:38<andythenorth>Rubrik etc
15:39<nielsm>I had one of the cloud backup systems on subscription at a time, for personal use, and then that service ended their personal use plans and started offering only business plans, obviously at business prices
15:40<andythenorth>it's £2000 / annum per VM
15:40<LordAro>that seems like a lot
15:40<andythenorth>the VMs cost around £200 - £800 / annum from the IaaS vendors
15:40<andythenorth>it does seem a lot
15:40<andythenorth>I guess that's how people get rich
15:41<nielsm>I have no idea if that's costly or not, but I guess it also depends on frequency of changes in the data (how many GB of changed blocks each month) and how much retention you get
15:41<LordAro>we just send our zfs datasets to an offsite server
15:41<LordAro>admittedly we don't have all that much, no more than 10s of GB per day
15:41<nielsm>I suppose you can do a cost-benefit with what would the business cost be of losing that particular VM
15:41<andythenorth>our backup requirements are moderately intense, but spending 25% of total business turnover on backups seems quite .... odd
15:43<nielsm>it seems like it'd be a better plan to move all data of value out of the VMs and into some other persistent storage, which can have appropriate redundancy etc
15:43<nielsm>managing backup of dedicated storage should also be easier than of black-box VMs
15:45<andythenorth>it would be a better plan, but facts on the ground mitigate against doing it
15:46<andythenorth>or at least, there is a sequence
15:47<TrueBrain>https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/aws-free-tier-data-transfer-expansion-100-gb-from-regions-and-1-tb-from-amazon-cloudfront-per-month/ <- hopefully OpenTTD benefits from that greatly; it does read like it should, but .. it is AWS; the one service you only know your bill when you get your bill :P
15:48<andythenorth>do you think it will be more or less than £460k? :)
15:50<andythenorth>I think that is going to cut my personal AWS bill substantially though
15:50<andythenorth>it will fall from as much as $6 to $0
15:50<TrueBrain>seems it should cut our bill with at least 30 dollar a month
15:54<andythenorth>think of the savings!
15:55<andythenorth>can we blow the budget on treats then?
15:56<@peter1138>200 x 100GB VMs seems lot.
15:57<andythenorth>single tenant
15:57<andythenorth>there are other ways, but we have compliance paperwork for this one
15:59<@peter1138>Also I need to figure out the dev-ops side.
16:00<@peter1138>All my stuff is in the "we set up machines, they just happen to be virtual" which is a bit old school.
16:01<SpComb>20TB dataset? do they assume 100% churn on daily backups with 1y retention or what
16:02<andythenorth>err you just precisely described the worst case use case yes
16:02<andythenorth>ideally the churn is single digit
16:02<andythenorth>but there are other days
16:08<SpComb>20TB/day probably isn't free
16:09<SpComb>but dumb to pay by worst-case if there are other options available
16:10<andythenorth>awaiting quotes from other vendors
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17:24<Andres_>Hello. Does anyone here use Southern Pacific Rail NewGRF?
17:32<FLHerne>Andres_: Unlikely, but what's the question?
17:33<FLHerne>we can always download it quickly
17:33<FLHerne>(I just have :p)
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17:38<Andres_>Well I am playing a game starting at 1850 and these trains ask for a caboose which doesn't appear well until 1905
17:38<Andres_>So I am wondering if I bleeped them out somehow or if it's intended
17:39<Andres_>Because that just means I can't run trains until 1905 ya know
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17:42<FLHerne>hm, looking
17:42<Andres_>You're most gracious
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17:45<FLHerne>Yeah, I'm not seeing such a thing either, looks like a set design bug...
17:46<FLHerne>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?style=5&p=1233388&sid=fb63f78df0845496c39b97a0ff7b6ac1#p1233388
17:46<FLHerne>you're not the first person to discover that
17:47<FLHerne>There's a grf somewhere containing an very short, totally invisible locomotive that you can use to workaround this sort of thing
17:48<FLHerne>Hm, not sure if it would work in this case, depends how Southern Pacific set checks for stuff
17:48<FLHerne>I remember it allows skipping UKRS2's brake vans
17:52<Andres_>Hmmm
17:53<Andres_>I guess I will look for a different train set to use for this time period
17:53<Andres_>Thank you for your time FLHerne much appreciated
17:54<FLHerne>'North American Renewal Set' is the time-proven kitchen-sink train set for NA stuff
17:54<FLHerne>I'm sure there are others
17:55<Andres_>There's like 3 versions of it, and the earlier is the largest?
17:56<Andres_>What's up with that?
17:59<TrueBrain>frosch123 / orudge: 1password fixed for another 2 years now :)
17:59<FLHerne>2.5 was a complete rewrite compared to 2.0, with better balancing but with some of the [cute/annoying] quirks removed
18:00<FLHerne>Use 2.52
18:01<FLHerne>the older versions only make sense if you were particularly fond of certain crazy features like being able to change the gearing ratio of locomotives
18:02<FLHerne>I don't know why both 2.51 and 2.52 are available, that's probably an oversight
18:05<Andres_>Change the gearing ratio huh
18:06<Andres_>That's a bit overkill for me I'll have to admit
18:08<FLHerne>Yeah, also the implementation conflicted with industry sets in very confusing ways
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18:52<Andres_>Newly added NewGRF should affect savegames yes?
18:53<+glx>no
18:54<Andres_>Oh
18:54<Andres_>Well that explains a lot
18:54<+glx>it's possibly to change newgrf in running games, but it's not recommended (things can break)
18:54<Andres_>But if I add more NewGRF files from online and want to load an existing save with something new?
18:55<Andres_>I shouldn't expect that behavior as normal I take
18:59<FLHerne>No
19:00<FLHerne>You can set the (horribly misnamed) hidden scenario_developer mode to true, and then click through the warning in in-game NewGRF settings that tells you everything will break
19:00<FLHerne>and then if you're lucky it won't break
19:01<FLHerne>If you're unlucky, it'll break in a way that you don't notice until playing that save for another few hours
19:01<+glx>if you don't remove anything, and add only to the end of the list it should be safe (but no guarantee)
19:01<FLHerne>well, depends what you add
19:01<FLHerne>I can't imagine adding new industry grfs would be a good idea
19:02<+glx>if added at the end I think it's safe, unless no industry grfs was active maybe
19:04<+glx>anyway we don't recommend it
19:08<Andres_>I understand, thank you very much for the guidance
19:08<Andres_>I am really loving this game, it actually feels community made
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19:12<Andres_>Is there such a thing as blueprints?
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20:02<GalaxyNova>Hi~
20:02<GalaxyNova>I'm wondering if the way the new 12.0 multiplayer design is decentralized or centralized
20:04<+glx>multiplayer itself didn't change, it's just easier to host a server now
20:05<GalaxyNova>oh
20:06<GalaxyNova>tha'ts good
20:06<FLHerne>Well, it's decentralised in that anyone can host a server
20:06<FLHerne>the 'master server' that keeps a list of available Internet servers is centralised
20:07<FLHerne>but you don't have to use it, players can connect by IP or domain
20:07<GalaxyNova>I hope they don't implement the discord integration
20:08<+glx>and there's also "private" server which use the 'master server' so invite code works, but are not listed
20:10<+glx>12.0 is a great improvement for multiplayer
20:10<FLHerne>If there is Steam/Discord integration, it'll most likely be by some plugin interface
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22:29<Andres_>Can city placement be modified by GRF?
22:29<Andres_>As in, to make cities prefer coastlines more?
22:30<Andres_>Or make the generator do so rather
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23:58<Eddi|zuHause>... no
---Logclosed Fri Nov 26 00:00:19 2021