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#openttd IRC Logs for 2022-01-02

---Logopened Sun Jan 02 00:00:11 2022
00:35<supermop_Home>ok i got that to work. now i have cute little tropic houses
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05:47<quinibuzz>I got an error "Unexpected end-of-file." when I was trying to upload a simple scenario in BaNaNaS. It´s a heightmap with real cities in the right place. Anyone can help me?
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05:57<LordAro>quinibuzz: what version have you used to create this?
06:03<quinibuzz>last one
06:03<LordAro>that's not a version
06:03<LordAro>the file upload could've failed, i suppose
06:04<LordAro>have you tried more than once?
06:04<quinibuzz>I changed the file name also
06:04<LordAro>bananas scenario upload does some basic parsing of the file to make sure its valid
06:04<LordAro>i suppose it's possible something's been missed somewhere
06:05<FLHerne>quinibuzz: Can you upload the .scn somewhere else so we can look at it?
06:07<quinibuzz>I just want to share with the commuty something I was missing for myself. It´s just a simple heightmap of Spain with the province capitals in it.
06:15<quinibuzz>I have to leave. Thanks for the help. I will try again later. Have a nice day.
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06:16<andythenorth>4 million cargos when?
06:17<SpComb>24-bit cargo depth
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06:33<andythenorth>weird cargo scaling is weird
07:08<@peter1138>new map array when?
07:10<TrueBrain>I expect michi_cc to work on that next :p
07:11<@peter1138>templated magic everywhere :D
07:13<TrueBrain>go big or go home, right? :D
07:13<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Bit outdated and not all I have somewhere, but...
07:13<TrueBrain>I rest my case ;)
07:14<TrueBrain>I love the "Exterminate TileExtended" commit
07:14<TrueBrain>sounds like a good start :P
07:16<TrueBrain>I always wonder what these kind of changes do for the speed of the game
07:16<TrueBrain>if it has any real impact or not
07:18<TrueBrain>michi_cc: do I get it right that in your idea you basically daisy chain structs on a single tile?
07:18*andythenorth might rage quit FIRS for a bit :P
07:18<andythenorth>cargo flow brain mess
07:20<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Yes, which is close to what Chris Sawyer did for RCT and Lomo.
07:21<TrueBrain>its a nice idea
07:21<+michi_cc>When all the rearranging is done, the tile structure itself should become quite a bit smaller, which hopefully averages out to not more memory than now.
07:21<TrueBrain>memory is not that relevant anymore
07:21<TrueBrain>CPU however ... :P
07:26<_dp_>memory is kinda important for servers that run multiple instances
07:26<_dp_>but yeah, cpu is way more important in general, especially in the vehicle ticks
07:33<nielsm>the reason for splitting the landscape up has originally been to make lookups faster, iirc: multiple of 8 instead of multiple of 12 per tile... but what that does for cache lines is another question
07:34<nielsm>and is modern hardware really slower at multiplying by 12 for an address lookup than the loss of memory locality for the two parts of the tile structure?
07:34<TrueBrain>we checked that pretty recently
07:34<TrueBrain>performance dropped like a mofo :P
07:35<nielsm>how bad would it be to just add another 4 bytes to the landscape instead? :D
07:35<nielsm>it's just another 64 MB for a 4096 square map
07:36<TrueBrain>yeah, memory is nothing to really worry about ;)
07:36<_dp_>unbitstuffing some stuff can probably also help the performance
07:37<TrueBrain>but mainly I was wondering what michi_cc 's branch does performance wise .. better? worse? Lot better? Lot worse? :) Or do you first need to finish everything before you can say anything about that?
07:37<_dp_>also adding some stuff that didn't fit like snow layer for objects and industries
07:40<nielsm>how would it work if the landscape was changed to be an array of most basic things (height level, ???) and then a field denoting tile type followed by an index into an array chosen by the tile type
07:40<@Rubidium>it's not only the memory and CPU instructions that count, but cache locality probably counts even more
07:40<nielsm>not quite stacked landscape, but having e.g. an array of clear land tiles, an array of farmland tiles, an array of road tiles, an array of rail station tiles, etc
07:41<nielsm>and level crossings could possibly be done as a level crossing tile type that points to a road tile and a rail tile, to allow full data for each
07:42<_dp_>not sure about farmland but separating infra would be nice
07:42<_dp_>infra can even be 3d actually
07:43<_dp_>may not even need pointers from the land array as there are plenty of structures that can do range queries
07:43<_dp_>and it doesn't seem that frequently needed
07:44<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: In the state you can see (or the state I have locally) performance will definitely be worse. In the end it will probably still have a hit, but hopefully one that is not too large.
07:44<TrueBrain>pretty nifty
07:45<TrueBrain>its funny you recycle an idea of the original author of TT :P
07:45<TrueBrain>that has some irony
07:55<_dp_>michi_cc, your map structure looks very much like a hash table
07:55<_dp_>and not the most effecient kind...
07:57<+michi_cc>_dp_: It's not a hash table. It's an array of arrays, and the order of the sub-tiles matters very much.
07:58<TrueBrain>what do you need to actually finish that michi_cc ? And do you consider it viable? :)
07:58<_dp_>michi_cc, array of arrays is one of the ways to make a hash table
07:58<_dp_>michi_cc, only difference is that instead of somewhat random hash you have a sequential tile index
08:17<@peter1138>If performance is bad, maybe you'd have to remove 4096x size maps... ;)
08:17<TrueBrain>yes! who added that again?
08:19<_dp_>4k map by itself doesn't lag that much, only about the same as 1000 vehicles
08:19<_dp_>2000 if it's a full water map
08:19<+michi_cc>_dp_: Yes, but one of the defining things of a hash table is usually that it is unordered, which the map array isn't at all.
08:23<_dp_>michi_cc, by order you mean random access vs sequential?
08:23<_dp_>it's actually a good question what kind of operations openttd needs the most
08:27<+michi_cc>_dp_: I mean that at least for what I did, the order of tile structs in the sub-"arrays" has to follow certain rules. And of course the top-level array is also ordered in that it is indexed by a sequential number.
08:27<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: I need more of the universal currency that is always in short supply: time :p
08:28<TrueBrain>well, pretty sure several of us can donate some of that too :P
08:35<_dp_>michi_cc, that's just an implementation detail, in the end all you do is associate some tile structs with a tile index, no?
08:36<+michi_cc>Yes, right now there is one tile struct for one tile index, in my branch there's an array of tile structs per tile index.
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08:46<_dp_>so what I mean is that you do an associative array, and typical solution for those is either a hash table or a tree
08:46<_dp_>so question kinda is why did you do your own thing and can't it be improved by using standard solutions and tricks
08:53<_dp_>like, for an obvious example yours seem to be pretty bad at adding elements
08:53<_dp_>which I guess is kind of ok for openttd
08:54<_dp_>but still having a complexity of O(dy * map_size_x) for each rail or road may be excessive
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09:26*andythenorth adds munitions and tanks
09:26<+michi_cc>Cache locality is quite important for map access. As a large map will obviously not fit in cache completely, random tile access is always likely to miss, but access is also often for adjacent tiles, which can benefit from contiguous memory.
09:26<andythenorth>this may be regrettable
09:35<_dp_>michi_cc, yeah, but that's just general thoughts, would be nice to analyze what operations openttd needs in more detail first
09:35<_dp_>also I'd guess diferrent tile types are accessed together and need different operations, so it may be better to split them in several structures
09:36<_dp_>like road/rail is mostly needed for pathfinding
09:36<_dp_>so having it in the land array can decrease locality for land operations
09:37<_dp_>though I guess there isn't that much infra compared to the total amount of tiles
09:40<_dp_>but storing rail tiles together can increase locality for pathfinder actually
09:43<supermop_Home>god morning
09:43<supermop_Home>or good
09:47<supermop_Home>so i guess most houses don't actually use CC to color bits
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09:59<andythenorth>what to label the nuclear chain cargos?
10:00<andythenorth>nuclear fuel rods, spent waste, nuclear fuel?
10:00*andythenorth vague
10:04<supermop_Home>what's the convention on drawing swimming pools?
10:04<supermop_Home>dark blue ocean water with waves or a light turquoise?
10:05<andythenorth>aren't there default flats with a rooftop pool?
10:06<andythenorth>supermop_Home standard ocean blue
10:06<andythenorth>temperate town hotel rooftop pool
10:06*andythenorth wonders if the nuclear chain is deadly dull
10:20<+michi_cc>Include protesters cargo as alt pax :)
10:23<supermop_Home>temperate hotel pool always looked a little too rough and frigid to be enjoyable
10:24<supermop_Home>with like 6' waves
10:26<supermop_Home>one of the worst parts of tropic base houses is that there are so few of them
10:30<supermop_Home>andythenorth i think shipping the reactor vessels and turbines to the plant under construction is probably more interesting that the relatives small feul
10:31<andythenorth>fuel can be heavy due to the casks :P
10:31<andythenorth>but yes
10:31*andythenorth just keeps running out of cargos
10:31<andythenorth>16 million cargos when?
10:31<supermop_Home>it only goes maybe a couple times a year at most
10:32<supermop_Home>of course the vessels only go once every 30 years
10:33<supermop_Home>make the nuclear plant be 'under construction' for years, and you have to ship it enough concrete, equipment and pipes
10:33<andythenorth>and money
10:33<supermop_Home>and same for a coal plant
10:34<supermop_Home>then once its done, boost production at any nearby aluminum plants
10:36<andythenorth>we might want to add explicit power grid one day
10:36<andythenorth>extensible with defined 'power types'
10:36<andythenorth>it can be faked with town storage, but it's got no UI
10:36<andythenorth>so player is 'wtf?'
10:57<supermop_Home>sooo there are apartment buildings on the base set sprite sheet for tropic with blue bits... but they aren't CC?
11:14<supermop_Home>can i add recoloring to a replace block?
11:16<supermop_Home>"A series of real (or recolour) sprites has to be specified between the curly braces "
11:24<supermop_Home>too weird to replace the tropic church with a Shinto shrine?
11:27<supermop_Home>this temple looks sort of church like and has the tropic art deco style i'd like:
11:27<supermop_Home>but a shrine might fit in better with these little houses
11:29<supermop_Home>this one is like shrine upstairs and office building downstairs:
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11:48<supermop_Home>well this project's aim was to make the houses and apartment buildings in the tropic base set look more like Hawaii and less like the vaguely Spanish mission style the houses are in ogfx
11:49<supermop_Home>but as a baseset i need most of the building to look at home in 1930 and earlier
11:49<supermop_Home>and from 1910-1930, it seems like the most common architectural style for major buildings in Honolulu was......Spanish Mission style
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15:16<andythenorth>so did we agree to increase to 128 cargos ?
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15:20<supermop_Home>first you need to tell me what early 20th century building i should use to replace the tall tropic apartments
15:34<supermop_Home>most of those aren't apartment buildings, but they would at least look sensible in a city core in 1930 or earlier
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16:10<andythenorth>AWS bill again
16:14<dwfreed>andythenorth: really gonna break the bank there
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18:33<supermop_Home>it seems most of the train people here know each other
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21:18<dale>Hi! I'm running the latest World Airliners Set from the forums, but I strongly suspect the early game Lockheed Constellation has a running cost off by ~10x. If I want to fix this in a running single player game, what are the chances I can recompile the GRF with my tiny change and just swap the file out behind OpenTTD's back without ruining everything?
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21:32<dale>Ah, bless the developer(s), looks like they used a spreadsheet to figure all the cost values, and they checked the spreadsheet in. Looks like the Constellation had its cost and running cost factors flipped.
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 03 00:00:13 2022