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#openttd IRC Logs for 2022-01-03

---Logopened Mon Jan 03 00:00:13 2022
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03:38<andythenorth>yo
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05:54<TrueBrain>right, lets make some noise in this channel
05:54<TrueBrain>not because I want to
05:54<TrueBrain>but because nobody else is :P
05:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjn
05:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain updated pull request #33: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjF
05:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #69: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkel
05:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkvv
05:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain updated pull request #64: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkJg
06:01<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain updated pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUJ
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>späm! :)
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>i might have caught a cold...
06:06<TrueBrain>-the- cold?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
06:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUQ
06:06<TrueBrain>good :)
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i read, a runny nose isn't a symptom of that one
06:06<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkTL
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>thing i wonder about the james webb space telescope: we've spent like 30 years planning this 10 year mission. do we have two more of those in the pipeline already?
06:09<TrueBrain>its like with KSP .. you build one, see if it goes where you want it to go
06:09<TrueBrain>build the next
06:09<TrueBrain>and ofc, there is always a delay in building
06:10<TrueBrain>you tell your friends in the multiplayer session: just 20 more minutes to build this rocket
06:10<TrueBrain>and it never is 20
06:10<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain updated pull request #61: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkv9
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>i've never played KSP multiplayer :)
06:10<TrueBrain>not a bad thing :P
06:10<TrueBrain>it is fun, but frustrated
06:10<TrueBrain>you both run in your own time, and you can "catch up" with the other person
06:11<TrueBrain>basically .. if you have "that friend" that is always speeding up time
06:11<TrueBrain>you are always catching up
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>as a rule of thumb: i'm always the slowest player :)
06:11<TrueBrain>I understand the mechanism, but it is a bit frustration to play with honestly
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>whenever people are waiting for the last person to end the turn, that's usually me.
06:12<TrueBrain>yeah .. don't play KSP multiplayer in that case, you will hate it
06:12<TrueBrain>your friends will love it
06:12<TrueBrain>as they don't have to wait for you
06:18<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjn
06:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkvv
06:27<TrueBrain>okay ... I think it now all works ... I hope :P
06:27<TrueBrain>there is an annoying upgrade in there, so .. lets try on staging :D
06:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain merged pull request #33: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjF
06:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #69: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkel
06:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain merged pull request #64: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkJg
06:29<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain merged pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUJ
06:31<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUQ
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06:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #61: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkv9
06:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkTL
06:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjn
06:33<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkvv
06:43<TrueBrain>right, seems all to be functional
06:43<TrueBrain>TO PRODUCTION!
06:44-!-D-HUND is now known as debdog
06:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.2 https://git.io/JSVNk
06:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.1.4 https://git.io/JSVNL
06:46<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.5 https://git.io/JSVNt
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.2.1 https://git.io/JSVNq
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.5.4 https://git.io/JSVNY
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.2.10 https://git.io/JSVNO
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.3 https://git.io/JSVN3
06:47<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain created new tag: 2.1.4 https://git.io/JSVNZ
06:48<TrueBrain>right, that should be all the spam there is :)
06:48<TrueBrain>till next month!
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06:59<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9779: Backport master into release/12 https://git.io/JSVNS
06:59<TrueBrain>specially for you LordAro ^^
07:00<TrueBrain>finally had a good test-case for a PR that was merged with rebasing .. was a bug in my script, but otherwise worked fine :)
07:00<TrueBrain>updated gist :)
07:21<LordAro>:)
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08:41<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: search for WFIRST and Luvoir
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08:42<Eddi|zuHause>"The Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, formerly known as WFIRST, is an upcoming space telescope [...]"
08:45<@Rubidium>yeah, you were looking for those... right?
08:45<@Rubidium>planned for respectively 2027 and 2039
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08:47<LordAro>NGRST
08:47<LordAro>doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?
08:47<LordAro>neither that or JWST are quite as simple as "Hubble"/HST
08:48<@Rubidium>well, JWST is commonly known a Webb though
08:48<LordAro>mostly, yeah
08:49<LordAro>still not clear why they needed the "James"
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08:49<LordAro>it's not Edwin Hubble Space Telescope, after all
08:51<@Rubidium>each iteration gets one name more. Hubble, James Webb, Nancy Grace Roman... so the one after that will probably be named after some NASA administrator with four names ;)
08:52<LordAro>its full name is already "Large Ultraviolet Optical Infrared Surveyor" :p
08:53<@Rubidium>it's not like Wide-Field Infrared Survey Telescope got renamed...
08:53<LordAro>i do love the story behind WFIRST though - NRO just comes along and gives NASA 2 hubble-spec telescopes that they had lying around in a warehouse
08:53<LordAro>"these are too out of date for us, you have them"
09:07<FLHerne>LordAro: HST was already taken though :p
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09:46<supermop_Home_>good morning
09:46<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927573586963738685/unknown.png <- w00p, I can prerender ground sprites correctly :D
09:47<TrueBrain>it is surprisingly hard to convert this into HTML in a smart way :)
09:47<supermop_Home_>yay
10:00<supermop_Home_>i drew some more little houses
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10:13<supermop_Home_>how do i recolor in a replace block?
10:13<supermop_Home_>i have this so far:
10:13<supermop_Home_>replace replace_house_B_03 (4610, "images/Base_House_B_03.png") { // Replace tropic building 4610
10:13<supermop_Home_> tmpl_hale()
10:13<supermop_Home_> }
10:14<supermop_Home_>do i just put something in after the template?
10:16<+glx>I don't think you can recolor in a replace block, only replace a sprite or a recolor sprite
10:18<supermop_Home_>ok
10:19<+glx>replacing is really basic, it "overwrites" and existing sprite and nothing more
10:19<+glx>s/and/an/
10:19<supermop_Home_>this page mentions putting in recolor sprites but i guess that means to replace existing recolor sprites?: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Replace_TTD_sprites
10:20<+glx>yes
10:20<+glx>it's based on https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ActionA
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10:21<supermop_Home_>i drew all the 'trim' on these houses as CC blue, for re-use as new houses rather than baseset ones, and wanted to recolor it all to brown for the base houses
10:21<supermop_Home_>but i can just bake that in in photoshop for now
10:21<supermop_Home_>on a overlay layer
10:22<supermop_Home_>whoever drew the ogfx tropic apartment buildings put a ton of CC blue on there that doesn't get uses
10:25<TrueBrain>those negative offsets for sprites are so annoying to deal with :P
10:25<TrueBrain>(and no, making them positive doesn't help .. the issue is that you need to know the total height of a tilesprite before you can properly random it in HTML :P)
10:26<+glx>it's random if you don't know the height ;)
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10:28<+glx>offsets themselves are not that hard, except you have to translate them from virtual 3D coords to screen 2D coords
10:29<+glx>and that part is annoying
10:29<TrueBrain>speak for yourself :P
10:29<TrueBrain>but as I said, the main issue for me is the total height of a tilesprite
10:29<TrueBrain>which is not as trivial as I would like
10:29<+glx>yeah and bounding box can lie too
10:30<TrueBrain>my bounding boxes are fixed
10:30<TrueBrain>so those are not an issue ;)
10:30<TrueBrain>it mostly is silly HTML
10:31<TrueBrain>like, it is really difficult to align an element on the bottom of something
10:32<+glx>can't use same way as openttd ?
10:33<+glx>it's like a pseudo viewport
10:33<TrueBrain>creating a viewport was easy, see screenshot earlier :)
10:36<TrueBrain>and OpenTTD never calculates the height of a tilesprite
10:36<TrueBrain>it just draws the sprites in the spriteset
10:36<TrueBrain>it really really doesn't care about anything "height" related :)
10:37<TrueBrain>and sadly, the height of a tilesprite is not max(heights) or anything like that .. it is pretty tricky to calculate it
10:37<TrueBrain>especially as FIRS is full of composites :P
10:39<+glx>yeah openttd just crops if it's too high
10:39<TrueBrain>it just blitters what-ever you feed itr
10:40<TrueBrain>it really really doesn't care what the total height is of sprites on a certain tile :)
10:40<+glx>your main issue is northern tile, it's the one you want to align with what is above
10:41<TrueBrain>huh? Do you have a webcam installed? :)
10:41<TrueBrain>I am scared now :P
10:41<+glx>well it's logical ;)
10:42<TrueBrain>I have no clue why you talk about a "northern tile" honestly :)
10:42<TrueBrain>I am not battling rendering a viewport, as clearly I can (see earlier link) :) That really isn't an issue
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10:42<+glx>northern in openttd world, ie the top most one
10:43<TrueBrain>you seem to be confused with what I am actually trying to solve
10:43<+glx>but neighbours can be higher than it while being drawn lower
10:43<TrueBrain>vs your interpretation of it :)
10:43<TrueBrain>again, and I cannot stress this enough: I am NOT battling viewport issues, nor multi-tile something :)
10:45<+glx>yes I understand that, I think the issue is the viewport alignment itself relative to other elements of the page
10:46<TrueBrain>no
10:46<TrueBrain>FIRS tricks still amuse me greatly:
10:46<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927588721174413332/unknown.png
10:47<TrueBrain>every tile has a ground-tile below it, but if they aren't actually visible, they can be the weirdest things :D
10:47<+glx>oh a "useless" ground
10:47<+glx>default ground, then an always drawn childsprite to cover it
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10:50<+glx>I guess it was easier to do it that way we the templated stuff
10:50<+glx>s/we/with/
10:50<TrueBrain>now where will the water tile be hiding ....
10:53<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927590351705878609/vnWyCrRPqwYpWBhLilWSqiI9WBluB3tiqwEgJi5gMuACdCD17w3djm1hqgF02lWo8kdsdiAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.png
10:53<TrueBrain>hiddennnnn
10:54<TrueBrain>glx: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927590821149163630/unknown.png <- this is what I am trying to solve
10:54<TrueBrain>see the mess on the right side
10:54<TrueBrain>it is terrible
10:55<+glx>oh yeah the individual tiles
10:55<TrueBrain>not like I mentioned that 5 times :P :P
10:56<TrueBrain>theight = max(height + top, cheight + ctop) + max(-top, -ctop)
10:56<TrueBrain>ugh
10:56<+glx>yeah you can't guess the height without virtually drawing sprites
10:56<TrueBrain>well, no drawing involved
10:56<TrueBrain>just a lot of math
10:57<+glx>yes virtual drawing is math
10:57<TrueBrain>and iterating the whole chain in an annoying way
10:57<TrueBrain>no, no drawing :)
10:57<TrueBrain>just need to know the meta-data
10:59<TrueBrain>luckily enough I don't care about the actual image itself
10:59<TrueBrain>that makes it slightly easier
10:59<+glx>at least I hope FIRS doesn't use hide flag
11:00<+glx>because composite tiles may have optional layers
11:00<+glx>and dynamic position
11:01<TrueBrain>lovely, groundtile 2022 is defined in coalmine.png, but it used all over the place
11:01<TrueBrain>lol
11:01<+glx>oh I think it's also use for some stations
11:02<TrueBrain>I have a hard time seeing why it is different from dirt
11:02<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927589530821881896/ni8vfszYU1gAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png
11:02<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927592746162724914/1UIv4FG8jy3ym2Bo8AAAAASUVORK5CYII.png
11:02<+glx>there are vehicle traces on it I think
11:03<TrueBrain>maybe it is OpenGFX
11:03<supermop_Home_>i think the ogfx one is more plain
11:04<+glx>yup cowpen stations uses 2022 and I can see vehicle traces with TTD original graphics
11:09<TrueBrain>I really need to run auto-crop over images
11:10<TrueBrain>there are some pretty weird ones in there :D
11:11<+glx>https://imgur.com/RmlYgcR <-- that's 2022 for me
11:12<TrueBrain>clearly the person drawing OpenGFX was like: NAH!
11:12<TrueBrain>:D
11:12<+glx>and andy drawings are all based on original
11:13<TrueBrain>I think NML has no shortcut to that image even :P
11:13<supermop_Home_>TrueBrain looking at the ogfx sprite sheet to replace tropic buildings... that certainly seems to be the case
11:13<TrueBrain>NML indeed doesn't have a shorthand for it
11:14<TrueBrain>so I guess it is rather FIRS specific, but it is okay .. I can add one more sprite :P
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11:15<TrueBrain>right ... so now "only" the tile editor itself
11:15<TrueBrain>hmm
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11:22<TrueBrain>something for tomorrow :D Getting there ... at least I can now see the light at the end of the tunnel :P
11:22<TrueBrain>just need to find a clean way to show the different layers of a tile
11:22<TrueBrain>without things jumping around like a mofo :P
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12:36<TrueBrain>owh, look at that, a frosch123 !
12:37<TrueBrain>welcome to 2022 :)
12:38<frosch123>hoi
12:38<frosch123>did someone tell andy? it's 2022
12:38<TrueBrain>pretty sure he missed it
12:38<andythenorth>it's what now?
12:39<frosch123>log4j-year is over, it's exchange-year now
12:39<TrueBrain>haha, yeah, stupid bug
12:39<andythenorth>are some people still dealing with the printer thing?
12:40<TrueBrain>that made me laugh really hard
12:41<andythenorth>well tomorrow I can return to the land of 'what is broken today?'
12:41<andythenorth>my glamorous professional career :P
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12:42<TrueBrain>I delayed that with a few more days .. I smart, you silly!
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13:12<+glx>oh yeah it's a stupid bug indeed
13:13<@Rubidium>just set your clock for 2043 ;)
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13:36<andythenorth>256 cargos when? :P
13:36<andythenorth>oof
13:38<@Rubidium>when there's a 256 bit integral type in C++?
13:38<nielsm>you need a 256 bit CPU for that
13:39<frosch123>andythenorth: industries also have cargo subtypes :p
13:39<+michi_cc>std::bitset?
13:40<+michi_cc>Can now even easily be used for commands with some glue code :)
13:40<frosch123>std::bitset is unfortunately not compatible with string parameter {CARGO_LIST}, especially when used by GS
13:40<frosch123>also, don't feed andy's madness :)
13:41<andythenorth>we need the full chain for producing nuclear fuel
13:41<andythenorth>but that occupies all 64 cargo slots
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13:41<frosch123>how many slots do solar panels need?
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13:44<andythenorth>at least 1
13:45<andythenorth>it's funny that Steeltown only needs 48 cargos
13:45<frosch123>you could split the chain into parts and connect them via ports. players have to run multiple games in parallel with economies Chemistry1, Chemistry2, Nuclear, ... :p
13:46<andythenorth>shard the map?
13:46<andythenorth>I did a test chemicals economy
13:46<frosch123>pretty sure you can find more elements to add as alloys to steel
13:46<andythenorth>it was reasonably complete with 50 cargos
13:46<andythenorth>Alcohol, Aluminium, Ammonia, Ammonium Nitrate, Chlorine, Cleaning Agents, Copper, Electrical Parts, Engineering Supplies, Ethylene, Explosives, Farm Supplies, Fish, Food, Food Additives, Furniture, Glass, Grain, Hydrochloric Acid, Limestone, Livestock, Lye, Mail, Methanol, Milk, Naphtha, Oil, Packaging, Paints & Coatings, Passengers, Petroleum Fuels, Phosphate, Phosphoric Acid, Plant Fibres, Plastics, Potash,
13:46<andythenorth> Propylene, Rubber, Salt, Sand, Soda Ash, Steel, Sulphur, Sulphuric Acid, Textiles, Timber, Tinplate, Urea, Vehicles
13:47<andythenorth>yes I did just paste that :P
13:47<andythenorth>it's only a 'complete' economy that's hard to fit into 64
13:48<andythenorth>if things are grouped, e.g. 'food', 'chemicals' etc it can be done in 32 cargos
13:48<andythenorth>if they're de-grouped, it needs about 100 cargos
13:48<andythenorth>weird scaling issue
13:48<supermop_Home_>yellow rock -> factory -> power plant
13:48<supermop_Home_>that's all you need
13:49<andythenorth>TBH I am just going to have a port-type industry 'nuclear facility' :)
13:49<supermop_Home_>yellow rock, heavy pellet, warm junk
13:49<andythenorth>produces fuel rods, accepts nuclear waste
13:49<supermop_Home_>3 cargoes
13:49<andythenorth>should I do munitions or not?
13:49<supermop_Home_>mine produces yellow rock and warm junk
13:50<@Rubidium>accepts star stuff => produces star stuff
13:50<supermop_Home_>factory accepts yellow rock and produces heavy pellet and warm junk
13:50<andythenorth>I am making a model train economy for Wales and SW England, which irl features munitions :P
13:50<andythenorth>including some really unpleasant ones
13:50<andythenorth>but eh
13:50<supermop_Home_>power plant accepts heavy pellet and produces warm junk
13:50<supermop_Home_>no where accepts warm junk
13:50<andythenorth>slug pellet
13:51<andythenorth>apply to YETI
13:52<supermop_Home_>GS to decrease town rating wherever you serve any of those industry types
13:52<andythenorth>pollution index :P
13:52<andythenorth>hmm apples and pears are 'pome fruits' group
13:52<andythenorth>who knew?
13:52<andythenorth>does 'orchard fruit' work better for that?
13:52<supermop_Home_>really need separate cargoes
13:52*andythenorth doing cider mill inputs
13:53<supermop_Home_>and separate cider and perry
13:53<andythenorth>well
13:53<andythenorth>when we have 4096 cargos, we can do that
13:53<supermop_Home_>brandy?
13:54<andythenorth>peach brandy
13:54<nielsm>GS occasionally culls town buildings near active X industries and instead place a "derelict ruin" map object that can't be removed by players or towns
13:54<frosch123>andythenorth: oh yeah, FIRS needs an economy with apples, pears and apple-pears
13:54<@Rubidium>that probably needs bigger screens too. Someone might have half of the cargos in the cargo list
13:54<andythenorth>are they hybrid grafts?
13:54<supermop_Home_>is kirsch technically a brandy as it comes from the wine of a stonefruit?
13:54<andythenorth>alcohol economy
13:55<andythenorth>Buckfast Tonic Wine
13:55<supermop_Home_>agaves
13:55<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine#Antisocial_image
13:55<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrus_pyrifolia <- i had an argument about those with someone who did not like pears, but only pears that tasted like apples
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13:55<supermop_Home_>separate out sotol tequilla and mezcal
13:56<supermop_Home_>frosch123 i eat those all the time
13:56<supermop_Home_>they sell them on my block on the sidewalk
13:56<supermop_Home_>they are good in salads
13:56<+glx>looks like a pear to me (even if it's apple shaped)
13:57<frosch123>i prefer juicy pears
13:57<frosch123>glx: they call it "pear", but it has taste and consistency of an apple
13:57<supermop_Home_>glx they are quite large
13:57<supermop_Home_>frosch123 it tastes more pear like to me, but not like a European pear
13:58<supermop_Home_>the texture is more pear like
13:59<frosch123>i only had one, maybe it was not ripe enough. but it was way too solid for a pear
13:59<supermop_Home_>benefit of living in Chinatown is 1) lots of fresh fruit for sale on every block, and 2) different fruits than you see at the grocery store
13:59<andythenorth>many kinds of fruit
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13:59<andythenorth>I did try splitting up food, but nowhere near enough cargos :P
13:59<supermop_Home_>there are other food related benefits as well
14:00<frosch123>andythenorth: do vehicle-set authors a favour, just add "red fruit", "yellow fruit", "green fruit" :p
14:00<andythenorth>yes
14:00<andythenorth>these are the important classifications
14:00<frosch123>also works for bell peppers
14:00<supermop_Home_>frosch123 a mixed jumble of colors looks better on the sprite tho
14:01<supermop_Home_>too bad the palette is so lacking in orange shades
14:02<andythenorth>dither (alternate red and yellow)
14:05<supermop_Home_>when an orange is 1 px dithering is hard
14:05<supermop_Home_>and that 1px orange is at least as big as a basketball
14:05<supermop_Home_>8x zoom to draw fruit cargo
14:07<andythenorth>32bpp
14:07<andythenorth>all the oranges you want
14:09<Wolf01><andythenorth> I did try splitting up food, but nowhere near enough cargos :P <- add different types of grain
14:09<andythenorth>barley, maize, wheat, oats
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14:11<supermop_Home_>millet? rice? sorghum, rye,
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14:14<frosch123>economy: gluten-free
14:16<andythenorth>gluten free food contains a lot of things
14:17<andythenorth>the substitutes for wheat flour are wide ranging
14:17<andythenorth>also they have to put in a lot of fat and sweeteners to make it taste good
14:17<andythenorth>it would need more than 64 cargos just for GF bread :P
14:20<frosch123>i checked the package, my gluten-free flour contains 6 incredients
14:20<frosch123>one of them is non-essential
14:21<andythenorth>is it grape juice?
14:23<frosch123>corn starch, corn flour, rice flour, lentil flour, modified cassava starch, tara-vine-seed-flour
14:24<supermop_Home_>how many root crops cargoes andy?
14:30<andythenorth>28
14:34<andythenorth>GF flour here is rice, potato, tapioca, carob, sugar beet, xantham gum
14:34<andythenorth>supermop_Home_ root crops including mangel-wurzel, or excluding?
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14:40<Gustavo6046>The starting date thing in the timetable is confusing
14:40<Gustavo6046>I always hold Ctrl so my vehicles try to space evenly across the orders
14:40<Gustavo6046>Thing is, sometimes they do wait until the "starting date" or sometime after that, sometimes they do the first order and start right away (and do not show as running late).
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14:46<supermop_Home_>it depends on where they are in there own order list when you start the schedule
14:47<Gustavo6046>ah
14:47<supermop_Home_>and confusingly, vehicles still in the depot when the timetable starts will be in reverse order
14:47<Gustavo6046>another thing is that I often have a bunch of vehicles running, and I issue a Start date, and they loop to the first order and start running a whole heap of days late..
14:47<Gustavo6046>Is there a way to "auto start date", so they start once they're all ready to, still with the option to space start dates evenly?
14:48<supermop_Home_>that is - the highest number vehicle gets the earliest start date
14:49<Gustavo6046>ah
14:49<Gustavo6046>that sounds like a not very important technical detail
14:49<Gustavo6046>but confusing, yeah
14:50<andythenorth>timetables don't work
14:50<Gustavo6046>ah :(
14:50<andythenorth>use JGRPP
14:50<supermop_Home_>andythenorth they do
14:50<Gustavo6046>:o
14:50<supermop_Home_>I've use timetables successfully for like a decade
14:50<andythenorth>in JGRPP you just click the button and the result happens
14:50<supermop_Home_>they work fine
14:50<andythenorth>you have to find the right button, there are 2 or 3
14:51<supermop_Home_>you just need to try it a couple times and learn from observing what happens
14:51<Gustavo6046>is JGRPP like a newgrf?
14:51<nielsm>no
14:51<Gustavo6046>or another obscure but super amazing feature like Cargodist?
14:51<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=73469
14:51<Gustavo6046>I swear, when I found out about Cargodist I couldn't believe I never knew about it
14:51<Gustavo6046>I fell off the chair... emotionally, not physically!
14:51<nielsm>it's a different version of the game
14:51<Gustavo6046>Oh.
14:52<Gustavo6046>Hm
14:52<Gustavo6046>supermop_Home_, they do be tedious to set up, but I think they're cool
14:52<Gustavo6046>having vehicles space out nicely
14:53<Gustavo6046>huh I'm just repaying my loan until I have enough money (within the loan limit) to buy a 2cc metro train (monorail?)
14:53<supermop_Home_>i'd rather have more people advocating for tweaking time tables to be a bit more intuitive to use that everyone saying 'there are no timetables in the base game, give up and use jgr'
14:53<Gustavo6046>there should be some sort of fee when loaning, or like a slight difference between how much you loan and how much you have to pay back, to discourage this kind of financial dexterity
14:53<Gustavo6046>supermop_Home_, I agree with that.
14:53<supermop_Home_>Gustavo6046 you have to pay interest
14:53<Gustavo6046>Timetables are cool but could be better, and deserve to be
14:53<Gustavo6046>Yeah, the interest is actually encouraging financial dexterity
14:54<Gustavo6046>Loan a lot, do stuff, pay out your loans and keep paying as money comes in, then loan again to do more stuff
14:54<Gustavo6046>Then you don't pay interests unless you're actively building something!
14:54<Gustavo6046>That is, until you're in a comfortable enough balance to pay out and never loan again.
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14:55<Gustavo6046>Without interest one simply wouldn't care about paying out, but then again that would make moot the point of being able to loan and pay out, or having creditors in the first place.
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14:56<andythenorth>auto-spacing of vehicles is the single most significant advantage of JGRPP
14:57<LordAro>would be really nice to have something that properly works (in an obvious way) in vanilla
14:59<Gustavo6046>andythenorth, yes but so do vanilla timetables
14:59<Gustavo6046>station ratings etc
14:59<Gustavo6046>it's just a bit more painful to pull off, which I don't agree with, but should be fixed rather than simply tiptoed around
15:00<andythenorth>I never got vanilla timetables to work for auto separate
15:00<andythenorth>no matter how many magic hotkey combos I tried
15:00<andythenorth>literally does not work
15:01<Gustavo6046>they work for me
15:01<Gustavo6046>is that for road vehicles? make sure you have multiple parallel stations rather than one single line
15:01<andythenorth>ships
15:01<andythenorth>trams
15:02<andythenorth>I never tried buses
15:02<Gustavo6046>for trams works fine for me
15:02<andythenorth>I've seen a youtube video comparing vanilla, joker and jgrpp
15:02<andythenorth>for separation
15:02<Gustavo6046>if it's not good it should be fixed though
15:02<Gustavo6046>vanilla should be THE example of how to do it
15:03<Gustavo6046>it shouldn't be a pasasble baseline
15:03<Gustavo6046>I'd prioritize polishing it, even little corners like that, and also make a bit more polish on the mobile UI (it's fine and clearly thought went into the touch interface, but it gets cluttered fast)
15:07<_dp_>there is usually more than one opinion on how to do stuff in vanilla :p
15:08<_dp_>also mobile version isn't vanilla, it's a fork maintained by a single person, much like jgrpp
15:10<Gustavo6046>ah
15:11<andythenorth>I don't want to accidentally be a gatekeeper :P
15:11<andythenorth>but as JGRPP exists, it's unlikely to be fixed in vanilla
15:11<andythenorth>JGR was interested to fix it and can make decisions
15:11<andythenorth>vanilla neither of those are true right now today
15:12<andythenorth>* specific to this issue
15:16<Gustavo6046>hmm, okay
15:16<Gustavo6046>I understand your concern
15:16<Gustavo6046>it's, in a way, political :p
15:16<Gustavo6046>I mean, it really is!
15:16<Gustavo6046>Broad sense politics means to manage the concerns of a bunch of people
15:16<andythenorth>more like managing interest :)
15:16<andythenorth>if anything
15:17<andythenorth>managing here is limited :)
15:17<Gustavo6046>Mhm
15:17<+michi_cc>It's very likely to get fixed in vanilla (if there's something to fix), but only if somebody turns up to do the work.
15:19<+glx>and once anything is in vanilla, we have to maintain it
15:19<Gustavo6046>C++... I dunno.
15:20<Gustavo6046>I'd love to help, but I have a bad history with C++ :p
15:21<andythenorth>glx we do? :o
15:22<Gustavo6046>Why can't I transport my trains via big huge airplane? :p
15:22<Gustavo6046>glx, well, yes, to keep it working together with all of the OTHER moving parts...
15:26<+glx>andythenorth: well major bugs, crashes, ...
15:27<andythenorth>oh that :)
15:28<LordAro>i'd quite like there to be an official mobile ui too, but that'd a rather larger amount of work
15:32<frosch123>do you ever play on mobile?
15:32<Gustavo6046>Articulated trams get stuck if a station ends abruptly rather than having a single piece of tramrail to loop around.
15:32<Gustavo6046>Meanwhile, single piece trams just "teleport" to the other rail.
15:32<Gustavo6046>or lane
15:32<Gustavo6046>One or the other, please!
15:32<LordAro>frosch123: no, but i bet there are people that would if it were (more) available
15:32<Gustavo6046>Or justify it, I dunno, maybe just say articulation makes it harder to teleport a tram short distances like you can with short types :p
15:32*Gustavo6046 is not a short type
15:32<frosch123>Gustavo6046: the former also applies also to tram tracks
15:33*Gustavo6046 totally is a short type, though (171cm)
15:33<Gustavo6046>frosch123, hm?
15:33<Gustavo6046>wait, but I *am* talking about trams
15:33<Gustavo6046>am confused
15:33<frosch123>the latter is an exception to avoid deadlocks, if the next tile is not buidable
15:33<frosch123>trams always need a u-turn for reversing
15:34<Gustavo6046>ahh
15:34<Gustavo6046>deadlocks?
15:34<frosch123>imagine building a tram track straight into an industry
15:35<frosch123>when the tram is on the tile, you cannot remove the track, because the tram is on it
15:35<frosch123>but you cannot extend the track either, because the industry is irremovable
15:35<frosch123>so the tram would be stuck forever
15:40<Gustavo6046>true
15:40<Gustavo6046>I have almost had that happen, but it was with city tile. I had to remove it and that made me quite sad.
15:40<Gustavo6046>(and the mayor pretty upset)
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15:44<Gustavo6046>But I see what you mean
15:51<andythenorth>what is the hazardous cargo class intended for?
15:51<andythenorth>should I use it to require a brake van in the train or something?
15:51<andythenorth>restrict speed?
15:53<andythenorth>also NUKE for nuclear fuel?
15:54<frosch123>afaik the hazardous class was invented by people who could edit wikis, but did not do newgrfs
15:55<andythenorth>oic :)
15:55*andythenorth thinks of BAD FEATURES to use it for
15:55<+glx>ah like roadmaps
15:55<frosch123>but yeah, add a 200t vehicle, which carries 10t of freight, and is limited to 20 km/h :p
15:56<andythenorth>lol the roadmap is still there?
15:56<andythenorth>I thought we deleted it :)
15:56<andythenorth>I enjoy also that the entire 'development' section is no longer linked :P
15:57<andythenorth>after I spent a few days cleaning it up
15:57<andythenorth>all things die :)
15:57<frosch123>it's linked from the docs folder in the sources
15:57<andythenorth>it is
15:57<frosch123>there is some kind of disagreement there :p some people want dev docs in the repository, others want to translate it
15:57<andythenorth>this is standard
15:58<andythenorth>I've never seen any project which agrees on docs
15:58<frosch123>i just moved all the junk to Archive/
15:58<frosch123>people still keep on editing
15:59<andythenorth>people seem to people
15:59<andythenorth>hmm maybe I can do this in 64 cargos
16:00<andythenorth>fortunately Wales only produces sheep, 3 kinds of steel, tinplate and petrol
16:00<andythenorth>so I didn't need many cargos for that part of the map
16:00*andythenorth overlooks the historical role of Wales as the richest coal exporting region in the world
16:01<+glx>different wool color maybe
16:02<frosch123>andythenorth: count new-south-wales as part of wales? maybe you have coal again then
16:02<andythenorth>coals to newcastle
16:02<andythenorth>newcastle NSW
16:09<frosch123>why is MS not included in FAANG? is the term too old, before MS became relevant again?
16:11<andythenorth>wow Netflix is in there?
16:11<andythenorth>surely that's aging :P
16:12<frosch123>also true, i don't understand how netflix compares to the other 4
16:12<nielsm>have anyone tried this? https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/sizebench/9ndf4n1wg7d6
16:12<frosch123>uff. that brings back work memories...
16:13<frosch123>company has a policy to not share source code between subsidiaries, but still shares pdbs
16:13<frosch123>so someone wrote a pdb->uml tool
16:14<frosch123>generate docs from pdbs :p
16:22<andythenorth>oof
16:23<andythenorth>one day I make FIRS compile move pax, mail and food automatically
16:23*andythenorth keeps having to move them in a list
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17:21<Gustavo6046>Hmm, the even timetabling does seem to not work very well for ships, which is odd
17:22<Gustavo6046>Curiously it did for my trams
17:22<Gustavo6046>well, not well for my trams, but it did for my other road vehicles, and my trains
17:22<Gustavo6046>and even airplanes I recall
17:23<Gustavo6046>Maybe automatically evening the starting date for ships and trams doesn't work well for some reason?
17:23<Gustavo6046>(I *am* using NewGRFs.)
17:23<Gustavo6046>https://i.imgur.com/OGSVvmz.png
17:23<frosch123>trams can't overtake
17:24<Gustavo6046>The only relevant NewGRFs are 2cc {Cargo,} Trams, and SHARK, respectively.
17:24<frosch123>that may be an issue
17:24<Gustavo6046>Hmm, maybe
17:26<Gustavo6046>Oo, some of my trams certainly are evening out a bit though
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17:43<Gustavo6046>It's hard for most types of vehicles to overtake each other - even busses and trucks have difficulty e.g. if they're of the same model. Additionally, without timetable slack, it's nigh impossible for them to slowly "gravitate" towards an evenly spaced schedule if they start clumped up, but timetable slack is also antithetic to efficiency.
17:44<Gustavo6046>Ultimately, spacing out timetables evenly is pleasant when done correctly, but more an art than a science, and it's quite difficult to get just right. Plus, it takes a while to even be noticeable, unless you set a later start date, and even then sometimes they just leave in somewhat of a burst for whatever reason.
17:44<Gustavo6046>This is my thoughts on it. I think it's a cool feature that can actually help, say, with station ratings, or distributing congestion on routes and stations, and one that deserves more love and polish.
17:55<Gustavo6046>Oh, also drive-through stations and their tendency to clump up cars in them can be a problem :p
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18:19<Gustavo6046>mhm
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 04 00:00:14 2022