| --- | Log | opened Wed Jan 05 00:00:15 2022 |
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| 03:27 | <@peter1138> | Well |
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| 05:20 | <TrueBrain> | "For earlier versions of TTDPatch the variable .." |
| 05:20 | <TrueBrain> | I love the vague reference :D |
| 05:27 | <TrueBrain> | hmm ... are temp registers of a procedure local to the procedure, or local to the original varaction? |
| 05:28 | <TrueBrain> | reading by the text, I assume the first .. |
| 05:36 | <TrueBrain> | no, there is only 1 _temp_store .. okay |
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| 05:53 | <TrueBrain> | what makes NML really hard to read for me, is that the keywords provided by NML is a HUGE list .. so often I am confused when reading NML: is this thing locally defined, or defined by NML |
| 05:53 | <TrueBrain> | some namespacing would really have helped |
| 05:58 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #9780: Codechange: Make RoadScopeResolver constructor inlineable. https://git.io/JSSI3 |
| 06:00 | <TrueBrain> | andythenorth: am I right in that "num_supplies_delivered" in FIRS primary industries is currently "write-only"? (as in, it isn't actually used anywhere?) |
| 06:01 | <TrueBrain> | well, except for the 28th entry (num_supplies_delivered_27) |
| 06:01 | <TrueBrain> | ah, no, nevermind |
| 06:01 | <andythenorth> | it should be read somewhere |
| 06:01 | <andythenorth> | it's shuffled every 256 ticks |
| 06:01 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, found it .. |
| 06:02 | <TrueBrain> | NML is not the friendliest to read :P |
| 06:02 | <TrueBrain> | basically, the boost is calculated based on the last 27 deliveries |
| 06:03 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 06:03 | <TrueBrain> | cool, tnx |
| 06:05 | <TrueBrain> | I guess that makes boosting a bit more relaxed, you only have to deliver 4 times a year or so |
| 06:05 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9780: Codechange: Make RoadScopeResolver constructor inlineable. https://git.io/JSSIg |
| 06:06 | <TrueBrain> | now approve my backport PR! :P |
| 06:13 | <TrueBrain> | andythenorth: the tooltip of secondary industries say that you get a boost if you deliver all 3 cargoes (for example), but is this really true? |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 06:13 | <TrueBrain> | as in, the code reads as if the accepting cargoes are just adding to what is being produced? |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | not in all cases, it's industry specific |
| 06:13 | <TrueBrain> | ah |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | amounts produced are multiplied by a fraction |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | it might be e.g 2/8 if one cargo delivered |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | 5/8 if 2 cargos delivered |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | 8/8 if all 3 cargos delivered |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | (examples) |
| 06:14 | <TrueBrain> | ah, I see |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | there's also a split on the output, which is fractional, but that's totally unrelated to the input above |
| 06:15 | <TrueBrain> | so the current_production_ratio is additive of all inputs |
| 06:15 | <TrueBrain> | and used as multiplier to the individual |
| 06:15 | <TrueBrain> | so delivering only wheels to the car-maker is enough to make some cars, just slower :D |
| 06:16 | <TrueBrain> | rEaLiSm :P |
| 06:16 | <TrueBrain> | okay, and here too, if you delivered any in the last 3 months, it enables its fraction |
| 06:16 | <TrueBrain> | gotcha |
| 06:16 | <TrueBrain> | tnx :) |
| 06:17 | <TrueBrain> | I love how you seem to be using persistent storage for temporary values :D |
| 06:17 | <TrueBrain> | but that is fine :) |
| 06:18 | <TrueBrain> | and I guess closure_counter is never really implemented? |
| 07:10 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9779: Backport master into release/12 https://git.io/JSStn |
| 07:10 | <TrueBrain> | \o/ |
| 07:10 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9779: Backport master into release/12 https://git.io/JSVNS |
| 07:11 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9772: Fix missing icon https://git.io/JSStC |
| 07:11 | <LordAro> | you're quick |
| 07:11 | <TrueBrain> | trying to design a simple RPN-based language .. so I can use the distraction :P |
| 07:17 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #9726: Fix: Prevents crash when no industries are present https://git.io/JSStz |
| 07:18 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9769: Doc: Fix broken links in GitHub docs https://git.io/JSStV |
| 07:23 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9769: Doc: Fix broken links in GitHub docs https://git.io/JyOdx |
| 07:24 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9772: Fix missing icon https://git.io/Jygdh |
| 07:24 | <TrueBrain> | abusing admin powers, as rebasing those PRs is stupid |
| 07:24 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #9770: Fix #9765: Incorrect Company Values https://git.io/JSStS |
| 07:25 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #9780: Codechange: Make RoadScopeResolver constructor inlineable. https://git.io/JSSI3 |
| 07:36 | <TrueBrain> | $num_supplies_delivered[27] $num_supplies_delivered[27] %incoming_cargo_waiting[@i] + = |
| 07:36 | <TrueBrain> | collect all the prefixes? |
| 07:37 | <LordAro> | are you sure you're not writing perl? |
| 07:37 | <TrueBrain> | lol |
| 07:39 | <LordAro> | i think that could actually be valid perl, without the "+ =" on the end |
| 07:39 | <TrueBrain> | sadly I need some meta-language, as I am not sure NewGRF is turing complete :P |
| 07:42 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9739: Copy server invite code to the clipboard automatically https://git.io/JSSqE |
| 07:42 | <LordAro> | i'd be surprised if it wasn't |
| 07:44 | <TrueBrain> | looping is a bit of the issue |
| 07:44 | <TrueBrain> | you could do tail-recursion, I guess |
| 07:44 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] pelya commented on pull request #9739: Copy server invite code to the clipboard automatically https://git.io/JSSqa |
| 07:46 | <TrueBrain> | did anyone check how ^^ looks visually? |
| 07:46 | <TrueBrain> | code-wise it reads to me that it now has a button with the text "copy to clipboard"? |
| 07:47 | <TrueBrain> | I would expect something smaller, tbh :) Like a small icon or what-ever ;) But this text might be .. long, for the location it is at :) |
| 07:47 | <TrueBrain> | I might be wrong, there is no visual in the PR :P |
| 07:49 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JSSqi |
| 07:54 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9642: Feature: Orientation of rail and road depots can be changed https://git.io/JSSqS |
| 07:55 | <LordAro> | TrueBrain: yeah, ideally a little icon |
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| 07:57 | <TrueBrain> | https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/58a388d5e396bba3ae3ec721d3d5fca3 <- something like this is what a FIRS primary industry is, I think .. |
| 07:57 | <TrueBrain> | writing RPN is hard :P |
| 07:57 | <TrueBrain> | now the question is, can I actually parse this |
| 07:57 | <TrueBrain> | need to fix cargo labels for sure :) |
| 07:59 | <LordAro> | if you're not careful you'll invent nml2.0 :p |
| 07:59 | <TrueBrain> | I really hope not :P |
| 08:00 | <TrueBrain> | I am mostly balancing .. am I going to do something that is easy to parse |
| 08:00 | <TrueBrain> | or easy to write |
| 08:23 | <TrueBrain> | why is there an "again" in action2 industry cb .. |
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| 09:57 | <TrueBrain> | adding list support while remaining an RPN is hard :P Right, tons of updates, I think this might actually work :) |
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| 09:59 | <supermop_Home> | yo |
| 10:03 | <TrueBrain> | found a use-case for "again" .. to cap the stockpile. Which is funny, as there is no need, but knowing how to do it in one go in NML is .. non-trivial :) |
| 10:03 | <TrueBrain> | @calc 4096 / 3 * 256 / 74 |
| 10:03 | <@DorpsGek> | TrueBrain: 4723.315315315315 |
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| 10:37 | <+glx> | remember "again" is from NFO time |
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| 11:38 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: i think andy stored some temporary values in persistent registers for debugging. the in-game inspect window shows persistent registers, so you can use them like printf-debugging |
| 11:38 | <TrueBrain> | So the comments told me, yes. Still funny :D |
| 11:39 | <+glx> | and temp registers are valid for current run only |
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| 12:17 | <TrueBrain> | meh; I can compile Javascript to an AST in Rust easily .. but there is too much things you can do in Javascript you really cannot in NewGRF :P |
| 12:17 | <TrueBrain> | so that would be a frustrating run for developers too |
| 12:18 | <frosch123> | yeah, not turing complete :) |
| 12:18 | <TrueBrain> | so I guess I should try to convert my RPN-language to NewGRF .. I think this could work |
| 12:18 | <TrueBrain> | at least it is more readable than NFO :P |
| 12:19 | <frosch123> | not sure about that :p |
| 12:19 | <TrueBrain> | at least you can use variable names instead of numbers ;) |
| 12:20 | <TrueBrain> | if you have better suggestions, I would love to hear them btw :) |
| 12:20 | <TrueBrain> | but .. it is tricky :) |
| 12:21 | <frosch123> | i only used RPN for terms, never for assignments or even function declarations |
| 12:21 | <frosch123> | so, no idea :) |
| 12:21 | <TrueBrain> | it is also not really meant for it :P |
| 12:21 | <TrueBrain> | but I just designed a stack-based language, which RPN is too |
| 12:21 | <frosch123> | i did not quite understood what your "global" namespace is |
| 12:21 | <frosch123> | but maybe not important :) |
| 12:21 | <TrueBrain> | persistent registers |
| 12:21 | <TrueBrain> | couldn't find a better name |
| 12:22 | <frosch123> | why are they global? they are part of the industry instance |
| 12:22 | <TrueBrain> | mostly as I hate writing the word persistent, I have to admit :) |
| 12:22 | <frosch123> | so i would expect "industry" namespace |
| 12:22 | <TrueBrain> | I guess |
| 12:22 | <TrueBrain> | felt equally weird |
| 12:22 | <frosch123> | &industry::memory 123 [] |
| 12:23 | <frosch123> | &town::memory 123 [] |
| 12:23 | <TrueBrain> | also considered calling it "static" |
| 12:23 | <TrueBrain> | well, "memory".. the idea is that you don't need to know the slot |
| 12:23 | <TrueBrain> | you just give it a name |
| 12:23 | <TrueBrain> | and the backend will assign it a slot |
| 12:23 | <frosch123> | "grf::params 12 []" are readonly though |
| 12:23 | <TrueBrain> | that is a bit the point .. not have to deal with numbers ;) |
| 12:24 | <TrueBrain> | so "industry:my_variable_name" |
| 12:24 | <TrueBrain> | guess "persistent:" would match NewGRF specs more |
| 12:25 | <frosch123> | "persistent" would be for indexed-access again, like "memory" above |
| 12:25 | <TrueBrain> | "persistent:my_variable_name" |
| 12:25 | <TrueBrain> | I don't see what you mean? |
| 12:25 | <frosch123> | the important part is the scope: industry, town, grf |
| 12:25 | <TrueBrain> | I can type it just fine :) |
| 12:25 | <frosch123> | "industry::my_variable_name" is different from "town::my_variable_name" |
| 12:25 | <TrueBrain> | that is true |
| 12:25 | <frosch123> | or "grf::my_variable_name" |
| 12:26 | <TrueBrain> | I see you write too much C++, with all those double : :P |
| 12:26 | <frosch123> | oh, i did not even notice you used single : |
| 12:26 | <frosch123> | already corrected that when reading |
| 12:26 | <TrueBrain> | :D |
| 12:27 | <frosch123> | there was some other thing that used single :, i hated it... was it xml? |
| 12:27 | <TrueBrain> | most things I know use a single : for scoping |
| 12:27 | <TrueBrain> | it is only C++ that was like: NAH, one isn't enough |
| 12:27 | <TrueBrain> | still no clue why they wanted two |
| 12:28 | <frosch123> | so it gets a different token than : in ?: |
| 12:28 | <+glx> | maybe because it's easier when use in ternary operator |
| 12:28 | <frosch123> | old c++ cared about tokens, then they allowed closing two < < with >> |
| 12:28 | <TrueBrain> | yeah .. I was about to make similar remarks :P |
| 12:29 | <TrueBrain> | at least it is not Perl, where you can make choices when parsing it :P |
| 12:29 | <TrueBrain> | but okay, in this RPN spaces define the tokens, so it becomes a bit easier .. no doubts about any of that stuff :) |
| 12:30 | <TrueBrain> | hmm, your remark does remind me that "openttd:" is also a bad scope |
| 12:30 | <TrueBrain> | as it can be industry or town too |
| 12:31 | <frosch123> | "openttd:" would be for vars 00-39 ? |
| 12:32 | <TrueBrain> | I didn't actually look at things in that much detail |
| 12:32 | <TrueBrain> | NML doesn't prefix it at all |
| 12:32 | <TrueBrain> | which was mostly what was frustrating me :D |
| 12:32 | <frosch123> | there is a TODO item for nml to add prefixes :) |
| 12:32 | <TrueBrain> | how many times I was like: this name ... who defines it? FIRS? No .. NML? No .. owh, wait, here in FIRS? No .. owh, here in NML? Ah, yes! |
| 12:32 | <frosch123> | currently NML has this PARENT/SELF thing in every switch, which makes combining them difficult |
| 12:33 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: don't mistake NML with pyNML :p |
| 12:33 | <TrueBrain> | so I mainly wanted to make that a bit more obvious :) |
| 12:33 | <TrueBrain> | no, when I write FIRS I mean pyNML :P |
| 12:33 | <TrueBrain> | ${cargo[0]}: (${cargo[1]} * production_level * LOAD_PERM(${industry.perm_storage.base_prod_factor}) * LOAD_TEMP(9)) / (16 * 16 * 100); |
| 12:34 | <TrueBrain> | best example of how unclear it becomes |
| 12:34 | <TrueBrain> | ${} is pyNML, production_level is NML, 9 is FIRS |
| 12:34 | <TrueBrain> | it is like .. yeah ... lets not do that plz :) |
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| 12:40 | <TrueBrain> | see, ideal I think https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/0d8d7183c6eee45e5ac90bfa57777e29 works better |
| 12:40 | <TrueBrain> | I am just not sure I can parse it :D |
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| 12:43 | <TrueBrain> | I wonder how FIRS would look .. lets try |
| 12:44 | <frosch123> | s/min/max :p |
| 12:47 | <TrueBrain> | how to differentiate between "industry" variables (so "SELF") and "industry" persistent registers? Suggestions? :) |
| 12:47 | <frosch123> | industry::storage::your_name ? |
| 12:48 | <frosch123> | though i guess, if you also need names for temporaries... you would end up with industry:persistent:your_name again :p |
| 12:52 | <andythenorth> | lol yes the templating breaks my brain |
| 12:52 | <andythenorth> | I really try to avoid looking at it |
| 12:53 | <andythenorth> | it's better than the edition which used CPP variadic macros in nfo-but-via-renum |
| 12:53 | <andythenorth> | that was ..... oof |
| 12:57 | <TrueBrain> | https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/0d8d7183c6eee45e5ac90bfa57777e29 <- that is how FIRS would look in Javascript, give or take mistakes |
| 12:58 | <TrueBrain> | just no clue if that is convertible to GRF .. |
| 12:58 | <TrueBrain> | I know the RPN can be done, or at least, I know for 90% it can |
| 12:59 | <TrueBrain> | main issue is that it is part templating, part pass-through ... :D |
| 13:01 | <TrueBrain> | why btw is there no industry cb without using registers but with telling what cargo ? :) |
| 13:01 | <TrueBrain> | at least, how I read it, I can either only do the first 3 cargoes |
| 13:01 | <TrueBrain> | or use the register version |
| 13:01 | <TrueBrain> | it consumes so much registers :P |
| 13:03 | <frosch123> | the no-register version is pretty useless |
| 13:03 | <TrueBrain> | exactly! |
| 13:03 | <frosch123> | when you deliver 1000 input, and the no-register version consumed 5, you have to call the thing 200 times |
| 13:03 | <TrueBrain> | well, I guess I can use the "again" to only use 1 register .. |
| 13:04 | <frosch123> | only 256 times until ottd says "grf broken" |
| 13:04 | <+glx> | ottd says broken on 16bit overflow |
| 13:04 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: I don't get that one, sorry .. 1000 input ? 1000 different cargoes? Or 1000 units of cargo? |
| 13:05 | <+glx> | https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/newgrf_industries.cpp#L614 |
| 13:05 | <frosch123> | 1000 units of cargo |
| 13:05 | <frosch123> | delivering 1000 units within 256 ticks is not unreasonable |
| 13:05 | <TrueBrain> | why does it have to call again if you only consume 5? If you set the "again" flag? |
| 13:06 | <frosch123> | i don't understand your question. sound like "why is there a division operator, if you can just subtract the same amount until you reach zero" |
| 13:07 | <+glx> | a delivery can be of any numbers, but the callback has fixed values |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | and I don't understand what you were trying to say :P |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | so stale-mate! :) |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | you say: "you have to call the thing 200 times" |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | I don't get that part |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | that is what I was asking :P |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | a politer way of saying: huh? |
| 13:07 | <TrueBrain> | :) |
| 13:08 | <+glx> | because you want to consume the 1000 received items |
| 13:08 | <frosch123> | i mean: a industry-production callback always has to check the amount of cargo delivered, divide/multiply that number with something, and then return the result as output production |
| 13:09 | <frosch123> | i.e. "output = input / 8" vs "while (input > 8) { input -= 8; output ++; }" |
| 13:09 | <TrueBrain> | what does that have to do with the register version or not? |
| 13:09 | <+glx> | register version can dynamically adapt the values |
| 13:09 | <TrueBrain> | (the reason I ask is because I start to wonder if I am not missing something here :D) |
| 13:09 | <frosch123> | "output = input / 8" is the register version. the "while" is the non-register version with "again" |
| 13:10 | <TrueBrain> | I don't follow .. I can always just look at incoming_cargo_waiting not? |
| 13:10 | <TrueBrain> | and do input / 8 in both cases? |
| 13:10 | <TrueBrain> | owh, no, okay, I get what you mean |
| 13:10 | <TrueBrain> | I was thinking in a bit longer switch-statements :D |
| 13:11 | <+glx> | so instead of repeating 5 input gives 5 output, you can directly do 1000 input gives 1000 output via the registers |
| 13:12 | <frosch123> | the non-register version is only useful for primary industries, which use prod_level |
| 13:12 | <frosch123> | i think there is some flag somewhere to multiple the results of the cb with prod_level |
| 13:12 | <frosch123> | (don't use it :p ) |
| 13:14 | <TrueBrain> | outputs[cargo.label] = cargo.multiplier * industry.production_level * industry.storage.base_prod_factor * industry.storage.current_production_level / 16 / 16 / 100; |
| 13:14 | <TrueBrain> | at least it is more clear than the FIRS variant :P |
| 13:15 | <TrueBrain> | it will be a very small subset of Javascript that can be supported .... but can it be done .. hmm |
| 13:15 | <TrueBrain> | will it hurt me somewhere :) |
| 13:16 | <TrueBrain> | signed vs unsigned might be tricky |
| 13:16 | <frosch123> | yeah, NML users noticed :p |
| 13:17 | <+glx> | 15bit signed hits very hard |
| 13:17 | <TrueBrain> | normally I would say: just use signed everywhere, but I am sure there are cases that is not optimal |
| 13:18 | <frosch123> | as glx said. the problem is that not everything is 32bit, some things are 15bit, and when using 15bit things in 32bit computations, you have to know whether to sign-extend or not |
| 13:19 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, and the facts that the advanced varact2 has different operators for signed vs unsigned |
| 13:19 | <TrueBrain> | doesn't make it any easier ;) |
| 13:19 | <TrueBrain> | when I use the Javascript approach, I have nothing to base that decision on :) |
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| 13:19 | <frosch123> | ah yes, "grf has no strings" is compatible to "everything is a string" :p |
| 13:20 | <frosch123> | *incompatible |
| 13:20 | <TrueBrain> | the typelessness is more the issue :) |
| 13:21 | <+glx> | and procedures can work on full 32bit, but the return value is still 15bit |
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| 13:23 | <TrueBrain> | right ... so .. with the RPN I know I can deliver, and I know the footprint will be small |
| 13:23 | <TrueBrain> | with Javascript .. I am not 100% sure, and I am unsure about the footprint |
| 13:23 | <TrueBrain> | but .. Javascript would be 10000 times easier to write in for 99% of the users |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | am I the 1%? :D |
| 13:26 | <TrueBrain> | you writing RPN? That sounds like a disaster :P |
| 13:26 | <TrueBrain> | sorry :) |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | RPN looks quite appealing |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | I've never done it, but it looks cool |
| 13:26 | <TrueBrain> | it is really easy to mess up |
| 13:27 | <frosch123> | but you can transform RPN into a graph |
| 13:27 | <frosch123> | not so easy with JS |
| 13:27 | <TrueBrain> | why do we want a graph? |
| 13:28 | <TrueBrain> | mostly what I like about RPN, that I can stream it. I only need to read it once, and I have the answer at the end. With Javascript I need to build the AST, do reasoning on it, before I can output the result. Will take more CPU etc etc |
| 13:28 | <frosch123> | i though the idea was: RPN in backend, user draws flow-diagram in frontend, or switches to advanced RPN mode |
| 13:28 | <TrueBrain> | no, the idea is: use a templated variant, or an advanced mode |
| 13:28 | <TrueBrain> | both use RPN :) |
| 13:29 | <TrueBrain> | mainly as I found out that these functions are way too complex for visual languages :P |
| 13:29 | <TrueBrain> | but I guess you are not wrong .. with an RPN it is always possible to experiment with it |
| 13:33 | <TrueBrain> | pro for JS, syntax highlighters already exist :P |
| 13:34 | <frosch123> | not sure you can syntax-highlight in RPN :p |
| 13:34 | <TrueBrain> | me neither :D |
| 13:34 | <frosch123> | but you can do something like bracket-highlight |
| 13:34 | <frosch123> | highlight the child nodes of the operation at the cursor |
| 13:35 | <frosch123> | preview as graph, preview as infix, ... etc |
| 13:35 | <TrueBrain> | infix? |
| 13:36 | <frosch123> | you enter "input 8 / &output =", preview says "output = input / 8" |
| 13:36 | <TrueBrain> | lol, you flipped the left and right of the = operator from what I did |
| 13:36 | <TrueBrain> | and it is one thing I kept wondering about while writing the RPN |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | oh, my mistake :) |
| 13:37 | <TrueBrain> | it is a funny problem :) |
| 13:37 | <TrueBrain> | it happens everywhere |
| 13:37 | <TrueBrain> | similar with dict lookuips |
| 13:37 | <TrueBrain> | dict key [] |
| 13:37 | <TrueBrain> | or key dict [] |
| 13:38 | <TrueBrain> | okay, decided to drop the & |
| 13:38 | <TrueBrain> | it is not needed, so don't annoy the user with it |
| 13:38 | <frosch123> | yay \o/ |
| 13:39 | <frosch123> | fewer sigils is always better |
| 13:39 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, really trying to minimize the keywords and operators |
| 13:39 | <TrueBrain> | too |
| 13:39 | <TrueBrain> | the one thing that is a problem in both languages .. assigning register slots |
| 13:40 | <frosch123> | https://xkcd.com/1306/ <- extend with truegrf at the next bottom :) |
| 13:40 | <TrueBrain> | I need to do loop unrolling I think |
| 13:40 | <TrueBrain> | so I can do it then, I think |
| 13:40 | <frosch123> | do you have a use-case for loops? |
| 13:40 | <TrueBrain> | can I lookup register X, where X is in register Y? |
| 13:40 | <TrueBrain> | (in NewGRF) |
| 13:40 | <TrueBrain> | or do they have to be fixed? |
| 13:41 | <TrueBrain> | FIRS is full of examples of loops |
| 13:41 | <frosch123> | the 60+x parameter can be a register, so you can address persistent storage via register |
| 13:41 | <TrueBrain> | but they are all static loops |
| 13:41 | <frosch123> | but you cannot address regular variables |
| 13:41 | <TrueBrain> | preprocessor loops? |
| 13:41 | <TrueBrain> | give them a name :) |
| 13:41 | <frosch123> | better use functions imo |
| 13:41 | <TrueBrain> | okay, tnx frosch123 |
| 13:42 | <TrueBrain> | take https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/58a388d5e396bba3ae3ec721d3d5fca3#file-truegrf-primary-firs-rpn-L81 as example |
| 13:42 | <frosch123> | subfunction(0, cct:MAIL); subfunction(1, cct:COAL) is plausible to me |
| 13:42 | <TrueBrain> | just no way you can do that without a loop, and without going insane :P |
| 13:42 | <frosch123> | loops are probably work-around for other things |
| 13:42 | <TrueBrain> | I do not really mind the loops; keeps the code somewhat readable |
| 13:43 | <TrueBrain> | I just wonder how far to go in supporting them :P |
| 13:43 | <TrueBrain> | I don't mind if they have to be unrollable by the preprocessor |
| 13:43 | <TrueBrain> | that is a fine requirements for me |
| 13:44 | <frosch123> | haha, i like how the loop is unrolled inside the comment :p |
| 13:44 | <frosch123> | but with a typo |
| 13:47 | <+glx> | the second 27 is not a typo |
| 13:49 | <frosch123> | not? |
| 13:49 | <TrueBrain> | it is the length value |
| 13:49 | <+glx> | it's the length of the list |
| 13:49 | <TrueBrain> | it is a stack-based language, so after the values of a list, is an entry to indicate the length of the list |
| 13:49 | <TrueBrain> | otherwise you can't search the list on the stack :) |
| 13:52 | <frosch123> | i did not even notice it was a RPN link, i thought it was firs pynml :p |
| 13:52 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JSS83 |
| 13:52 | <@DorpsGek> | - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) |
| 13:52 | <TrueBrain> | I do not know what to think of this :P |
| 13:54 | <TrueBrain> | https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/58a388d5e396bba3ae3ec721d3d5fca3 <- RPN |
| 13:54 | <TrueBrain> | https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/0d8d7183c6eee45e5ac90bfa57777e29 <- JS |
| 13:54 | <TrueBrain> | I am still ... in doubt :) |
| 13:54 | <TrueBrain> | both about equal in length |
| 13:56 | <TrueBrain> | I guess if I do a proper RPN, the def{ stuff would be like: "def{ .. } name = " |
| 13:56 | <TrueBrain> | but ... that would make implementations rather complex :P |
| 13:57 | <TrueBrain> | I did reduce the keywords to "def{", "loop{", switch and call |
| 13:57 | <TrueBrain> | could change "call" into () |
| 13:58 | <TrueBrain> | procedure calls accept 1 parameter, not? Hmm .. do I want to allow that .. |
| 13:58 | <andythenorth> | oh dear |
| 13:58 | * | andythenorth now working out how to python template RPN or JS :P |
| 13:59 | <andythenorth> | I already python templated GS :P |
| 14:00 | <TrueBrain> | a procedure also returns a value |
| 14:00 | <TrueBrain> | meh |
| 14:00 | <TrueBrain> | why bother ... |
| 14:02 | <TrueBrain> | ah, procedure variable is what procedure to execute ofc, not the parameter .. good; saves me from adding any of that :D |
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| 14:06 | <frosch123> | since you mentioned it, i keep on thinking that "index dict []" would be easier to implement... |
| 14:06 | <frosch123> | index can be an expression, dict never is |
| 14:06 | <TrueBrain> | implementation wise it really doesn't matter :) |
| 14:06 | <TrueBrain> | [] just looks at stack-1 and stack-2 |
| 14:06 | <TrueBrain> | that is it :) |
| 14:06 | <TrueBrain> | or do you mean: easier to write? |
| 14:07 | <frosch123> | no, i mean compiling to grf. va2 also is somewhat a RPN thingie |
| 14:07 | <frosch123> | but you cannot store a dict-address in a grf-register |
| 14:07 | <frosch123> | so when compiling the "dict []" part becomes a single instruction |
| 14:07 | <TrueBrain> | no, I need my own stack anyway while parsing the RPN |
| 14:07 | <frosch123> | while the "index" can be multiple |
| 14:08 | <TrueBrain> | how I plan to create this, is a simple lexer that looks for spaces |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | anyway, i strongly favour the RPN version. |
| 14:08 | <TrueBrain> | so it first finds, for example "dict", and stores the reference to the dict on the stack |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | the JS version is reinventing NML :p |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | it's cooler to have a RPN format, that other things can compile to |
| 14:08 | <TrueBrain> | next it finds "index", stores reference on stack |
| 14:08 | <TrueBrain> | next it finds "[]", which is an operator |
| 14:09 | <TrueBrain> | it looks up stack-1 and stack-2 |
| 14:09 | <TrueBrain> | and outputs GRF based on it |
| 14:09 | <TrueBrain> | so from a compiling point-of-view, the order is not relevant, I think |
| 14:10 | <TrueBrain> | if "index" was instead "1 1 +", for example |
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| 14:10 | <TrueBrain> | the + would already resolve stack-1 and stack-2 into a single stack entry again |
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| 14:10 | <TrueBrain> | hmm, and that is a valid point for the RPN .. you can make anything compile to the RPN .. it is harder to make other things compile into Javascript |
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| 14:11 | <frosch123> | "industry.persistent 1 1 + []" would compile to "1 load_const 1 + load_persistent" |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | "1 1 + industry.persistent []" is almost the same as "1 load_const 1 + load_persistent" |
| 14:12 | <TrueBrain> | currently I am under the assumption "dicts" actually never go to GRF |
| 14:13 | <TrueBrain> | hmm .. I do would like to support the NewGRF range switches, so you can quickly jump to something based on ranges .. how to call that? "switch"? "[...]" (just some random non-existing operator)? "lookup"? |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | i think if-cascade is easier in RPN |
| 14:15 | <TrueBrain> | well, a loop-if-cascade in that case |
| 14:15 | <TrueBrain> | for lists |
| 14:15 | <TrueBrain> | as that is the actual case for me currently :D |
| 14:16 | <frosch123> | "default result1 range-start1 range-end1 IFRANGE result2 range-start2 range-end2 IFRANGE" |
| 14:16 | * | Gustavo6046_ double-checks his arsenal of large trouts |
| 14:16 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, I went for something slightly different there ;) |
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| 14:17 | <TrueBrain> | mainly what I noticed that "end" is just "start + 1" - 1 |
| 14:17 | <Gustavo6046> | fixed nickname |
| 14:18 | <TrueBrain> | so I went with: range1 range2 range3 3 result1 result2 result3 3 value switch |
| 14:18 | * | Gustavo6046 looks menacingly at andythenorth, holding a large trout |
| 14:18 | <TrueBrain> | if value is between [range1, range2), it returns result1 |
| 14:22 | <TrueBrain> | but the simple case in RPN is simple: default result1 range1 value > result2 range2 > result3 range3 > |
| 14:24 | <Gustavo6046> | what is that weird language? |
| 14:24 | <Gustavo6046> | it almost looks like a stack based language |
| 14:24 | <Gustavo6046> | like Forth, kind of |
| 14:25 | <TrueBrain> | an RPN, yes |
| 14:26 | <TrueBrain> | right, less keywords is better, so away with "switch" .. just a bit sad frosch123 , that one of the things NewGRF does supply, I won't be using :D |
| 14:29 | <Gustavo6046> | TrueBrain, I was about to ask what RPN stood for but I realized it's reverse Polish notation |
| 14:29 | <Gustavo6046> | :D |
| 14:30 | <supermop_Home> | I still have an rpn HP calculator |
| 14:32 | <Gustavo6046> | what about un-reverse Polish notation? |
| 14:32 | <Gustavo6046> | oh wait, that's just Lisp, isn't it |
| 14:32 | <TrueBrain> | postfix vs prefix languages |
| 14:32 | <TrueBrain> | both exist, yes :) |
| 14:33 | <Gustavo6046> | yeah |
| 14:34 | <Gustavo6046> | C has infix operators but its function calls are kind of like prefix notation |
| 14:37 | <TrueBrain> | https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/58a388d5e396bba3ae3ec721d3d5fca3 updated, now with a header that explain the language a bit more. |
| 14:37 | <TrueBrain> | the only two keywords remaining are "def{" and "loop{" |
| 14:40 | <TrueBrain> | frosch123: similar, is A B > like "A > B" or "B > A" .. depends on how you look at "stack" :D |
| 14:40 | <Gustavo6046> | function pointers are fun to play with |
| 14:40 | <Gustavo6046> | but iirc they get in the way of optimization, right? |
| 14:44 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: those are like division |
| 14:44 | <TrueBrain> | yeah |
| 14:44 | <frosch123> | so A > B |
| 14:44 | <TrueBrain> | lets keep the order of operations from left to right, yes :) |
| 14:44 | <TrueBrain> | no need to hurt us any more than needed :P |
| 14:45 | <supermop_Home> | andythenorth how do you draw good stonework noise in a way that is reuseable? |
| 14:46 | <supermop_Home> | or do you redo it for each sprite? |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | supermop_Home I try not to do it :P |
| 14:48 | <andythenorth> | supermop_Home I would just redraw it each time I think |
| 14:48 | <supermop_Home> | oof |
| 14:48 | <supermop_Home> | my walls don't look good |
| 14:48 | <supermop_Home> | especially lava rock |
| 14:49 | <Gustavo6046> | TrueBrain, masochism comes in degrees, sometimes we're ok hurting ourselves a little bit, but not any more than that |
| 14:49 | <Gustavo6046> | lol |
| 14:49 | <TrueBrain> | still in doubt about [] frosch123 :) Main reason I picked the current order, is becomes of this: "list key [] 1 =" <- if I do it reversed "key list [] 1 =", it is hard for me to see it manipulated "list". |
| 14:49 | <TrueBrain> | but I think it will be one of those things ... lets make a parser first, and see what works and not after :D |
| 14:51 | <Gustavo6046> | TrueBrain, ooh |
| 14:51 | <Gustavo6046> | what if we wrote a simple compiler, that targets that RPN language |
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| 14:51 | <TrueBrain> | another one: true false <condition> or false true <condition> .. :D |
| 14:52 | <TrueBrain> | I went for the first for now |
| 14:52 | <TrueBrain> | feels more natural |
| 14:52 | <Gustavo6046> | yeah |
| 14:54 | <frosch123> | false true <condition> is easier to chain |
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| 14:54 | <frosch123> | result3 result2 <condition2> result1 <condition1> |
| 14:55 | <TrueBrain> | depends on your frame of reference ;) |
| 14:55 | <TrueBrain> | default result1 range1 value > result2 range2 > result3 range3 > |
| 14:55 | <frosch123> | though for switches you have to keep the switch-value somewhere |
| 14:55 | <TrueBrain> | works fine for me :) |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | hmmm, my if-chain is missing "value" a few times :P |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | but this again is, I guess, reading from left to right or from right to left :D |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | it is really funny :) |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | (to me at least :P) |
| 14:58 | <TrueBrain> | pretty sure there is no right .. just choices :) |
| 14:59 | <TrueBrain> | postfix notation is a bit more trivial in these regards, I guess |
| 14:59 | <TrueBrain> | something like: / 20 10 |
| 15:00 | <TrueBrain> | or: > value range1 true false |
| 15:04 | <TrueBrain> | s/postfix/prefix/ |
| 15:04 | <TrueBrain> | lol |
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| 15:10 | <TrueBrain> | industry:storage: does have one caveat .. a new version should assign the same variable to the same slot, I guess :P |
| 15:10 | <TrueBrain> | otherwise things might break a bit :) |
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| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | a new grf version? |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | with a compatible version bump? |
| 15:12 | <TrueBrain> | FIRS 4.3 and 4.4, those versions, yes |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | breaking compatibility with existing savegames is acceptable |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | same variable same slot is nice, but variable meanings or valid value ranges etc might change |
| 15:13 | <frosch123> | TrueBrain: the same applies to industry ids, random bits and stuff. i think those "locations" should be defnied when declaring the variable name |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | and we have no migration capability |
| 15:13 | <frosch123> | i.e. don't use implicit variable declaration |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | the implicit in NML is a complete waste of time |
| 15:13 | <TrueBrain> | you are both right, I think :) |
| 15:13 | <TrueBrain> | I expect with TrueGRF people make a lot of small incremental releases |
| 15:14 | <TrueBrain> | but yeah, I was thinking about explicit variable declaration |
| 15:14 | <TrueBrain> | also for the type |
| 15:14 | <andythenorth> | I try to make small incremental releases with grfs, and preserve compatibility wherever possible |
| 15:14 | <TrueBrain> | that gives two options .. |
| 15:14 | <andythenorth> | but when it's not possible....it's not possible |
| 15:14 | <TrueBrain> | I can keep industry:storage: .. |
| 15:14 | <TrueBrain> | or I can assign a local variable to that |
| 15:15 | <TrueBrain> | so at the top you have to define something like: supplied_cycles_remaining_cargo industry:storage 29 list |
| 15:15 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: there is a difference between "you decide when to break stuff", and "a compiler randomly switches things around, so you cannot even reload newgrf in-game, and always have to restart the game" |
| 15:15 | <TrueBrain> | and: total_delivered local int |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | frosch123 this is the problem with NML magical implicit IDs :) |
| 15:16 | <frosch123> | yes, they are useless :) |
| 15:16 | <TrueBrain> | so lets not repeat that for this language |
| 15:16 | <TrueBrain> | what are we calling it .. |
| 15:16 | <TrueBrain> | TrueRPN? :P |
| 15:16 | <frosch123> | just RPN: reverse-polish-newgrf |
| 15:17 | <TrueBrain> | :D |
| 15:17 | <TrueBrain> | I like it ;) |
| 15:17 | <frosch123> | the "polish" sets are known for realism, so reversing that |
| 15:17 | <TrueBrain> | do I need u32 and u15 |
| 15:17 | <TrueBrain> | or can I just do u32, and convert where needed? :P |
| 15:17 | <TrueBrain> | (well, i32 and i15 are more important, ofc) |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | u32/i32 are for storage, u15/i15 are function return values |
| 15:19 | <frosch123> | technically you do not need the 32/15, just U and S |
| 15:20 | <frosch123> | "def func() -> signed" "def func() -> unsigned" |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | now for a syntax to define types ... ugh |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | my functions don't return anything |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | much easier :P |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | just use a temp-register |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | is my answer :D |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | "num_supplies_delivered 27 list unsigned industry:storage type" |
| 15:20 | <frosch123> | can you pass the register as output-reference to the function? |
| 15:20 | <TrueBrain> | that feels a bit icky .. but I guess? |
| 15:21 | <andythenorth> | do we have enough registers? :P |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | some are reserved |
| 15:22 | * | andythenorth looks up the troublesome one |
| 15:23 | <+glx> | andythenorth: there are 256 useable registers (except in NML) |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | 0x100 for vehicles is the one that kills me every time |
| 15:24 | <andythenorth> | it's reused, which has ... interesting results |
| 15:24 | <+glx> | but 0x100 is a write only register from newgrf pov |
| 15:24 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 15:25 | <+glx> | with meaning for the caller depending on the callback |
| 15:25 | <andythenorth> | it's dangerous when using random switch and spritelayers |
| 15:25 | <andythenorth> | or rather...that's not possible :P |
| 15:26 | <andythenorth> | I am still worried what happens if TB looks at Iron Horse |
| 15:26 | <andythenorth> | FIRS is really simple |
| 15:26 | <frosch123> | the problem with 100 is just that both you and nml use it :) |
| 15:28 | <andythenorth> | I just stopped using random switch |
| 15:28 | <andythenorth> | it was the easiest thing |
| 15:29 | <@peter1138> | Mmm, which path shall we follow today |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | the path of righteousness |
| 15:30 | <@peter1138> | The path of refusing to believe in callback ID 1 as it's not documented... |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | do newgrf docks use it? :) |
| 15:40 | <@peter1138> | Didn't get as far as triggers. |
| 15:41 | <@peter1138> | Besides it would all be done wrong. |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | what isn't :P |
| 15:46 | <@peter1138> | Surfing With the Alien. |
| 15:47 | <@peter1138> | 80s guitar indulgence that I'd forgotten about somehow... |
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| 16:25 | <Gustavo6046> | four cities have many many busses and mail trucks going through them in a star of orders (asym cargodist), but this heavily congests the road stations |
| 16:25 | <Gustavo6046> | what do I do? maybe replacing them with trains is the best course of action? |
| 16:28 | <FLHerne> | Add links to make it more connected than a star? |
| 16:28 | <Gustavo6046> | I mean, look at this https://i.imgur.com/ZkP4hzl.jpg |
| 16:28 | <Gustavo6046> | FLHerne, links? |
| 16:28 | <Gustavo6046> | Oh wait |
| 16:28 | <FLHerne> | Trains are good, but you might need a lot of demolition to get into the centre |
| 16:29 | <Gustavo6046> | is it even necessary to have them transport in a star with cargodist? |
| 16:29 | <Gustavo6046> | Surely just a loop is enough, right? |
| 16:29 | <Gustavo6046> | Maybe there are downsides |
| 16:29 | <FLHerne> | No |
| 16:29 | <supermop_Home> | turn off breakdowns |
| 16:29 | <FLHerne> | For cdist, network graphs with bottlenecks are usually bad |
| 16:30 | <FLHerne> | all-to-all is ideal |
| 16:30 | <FLHerne> | somewhere in between is probably most practical |
| 16:32 | <Gustavo6046> | ah |
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| 16:39 | <Gustavo6046> | those orders are something like ABCBDB |
| 16:40 | <Gustavo6046> | supermop_Home, okay |
| 16:43 | <Gustavo6046> | It's also that bus/truck stations tend to get clogged, especially if a vehicle is running early |
| 16:44 | <Gustavo6046> | I would like them to spend the surplus days by going slower than the max speed or something |
| 16:44 | <Gustavo6046> | maybe adjust the speed if it nears the station and realizes it's still gonna reach before schedule |
| 16:44 | <supermop_Home> | un fortutately that's not possible |
| 16:44 | <Gustavo6046> | so it goes a bit slower again |
| 16:44 | <Gustavo6046> | ah, that's okay :< |
| 16:44 | <Gustavo6046> | I understand |
| 16:44 | <supermop_Home> | the best bet is to have them wait somewhere where they don't block a vehicle behind them |
| 16:45 | <supermop_Home> | but this is hard for most road vehicles |
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| 16:50 | <Gustavo6046_> | oops |
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| 16:51 | <Gustavo6046> | oops |
| 16:51 | <Gustavo6046> | supermop_Home, yeah, true |
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| 16:53 | <supermop_Home> | https://imgur.com/a/R29AMq6 |
| 16:53 | <supermop_Home> | generally road stops in series are not much better than a single one |
| 16:54 | <supermop_Home> | as no vehicle can pass another in the line anyway |
| 16:54 | <supermop_Home> | in parallel at least, a following RV can choose a different stop |
| 16:55 | <supermop_Home> | same with a single stop that the rv could enter from either side |
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| 16:56 | <Gustavo6046> | Is there a max length of transfering sequence in a cargodist route? |
| 16:56 | <Gustavo6046> | Like max number of hops between stations |
| 16:56 | * | Gustavo6046 hoppy wallaby |
| 16:56 | <supermop_Home> | in practice, the RV pathfinder seems to cache too much of the vehicles route |
| 16:56 | <Gustavo6046> | supermop_Home, but yeah, I did realize parallel is often better than serial |
| 16:56 | <Gustavo6046> | take that silicon valley :P |
| 16:56 | <supermop_Home> | so a late running vehicle hugs the on time one in front of it |
| 16:56 | <Gustavo6046> | ah |
| 16:56 | <supermop_Home> | and follows it into the same stop |
| 16:56 | <Gustavo6046> | that sounds sweet! they're friends! |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | I think someone tried a full mesh for cdist |
| 16:57 | <supermop_Home> | as at the time it choses a route into the closest stop, it doesn't know it will be occupied |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | might have been jgr :P |
| 16:58 | <supermop_Home> | drive-in stops are better for this in therory |
| 16:58 | <supermop_Home> | theory |
| 16:58 | <supermop_Home> | as the late RV can leave before the on time one |
| 16:58 | <supermop_Home> | but 1) you can't use articulated RVs |
| 17:00 | <Gustavo6046> | ahh |
| 17:00 | <Gustavo6046> | oooh right |
| 17:00 | <supermop_Home> | and 2) the time it takes RVs to do the movement in and out of the stop is a huge bottleneck that erases most of the late vehicle's chance to catch up |
| 17:00 | <Gustavo6046> | because in a drive-through, they have to exit in the same order they enter |
| 17:00 | <Gustavo6046> | right? |
| 17:00 | <supermop_Home> | yes |
| 17:00 | <Gustavo6046> | what if it's a drive-through followed by a drive-in? o.o |
| 17:00 | <Gustavo6046> | lol |
| 17:01 | <supermop_Home> | the RVs stop at the drive through then pointlessly turnaround in the drive-in |
| 17:01 | <Gustavo6046> | oh |
| 17:01 | <Gustavo6046> | but don't they usually stop at the end, i.e. at the drive-in? |
| 17:02 | <supermop_Home> | not if they just stopped at the drive through on the way there |
| 17:02 | <Gustavo6046> | ahh |
| 17:02 | <Gustavo6046> | hmm |
| 17:03 | <Gustavo6046> | what if there was a stop type that was a weird Frankenstein, but one way only? a single through lane (you can pick the direction), because the space where the other lane would be is instead parking spots |
| 17:03 | <Gustavo6046> | so like an expandable drive-in |
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| 17:03 | <Gustavo6046> | you could link two lines of those in opposite directions, kinda like two lanes of one-way railway |
| 17:03 | <supermop_Home> | if you have one chronically late RV that's just following the one in front with no chance to pass, its best just to manually stop the on-time RV briefly to let the other pass |
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| 17:03 | <supermop_Home> | Gustavo6046 that's been discussed and eagerly awaited for years |
| 17:04 | <Gustavo6046> | :O |
| 17:04 | <Gustavo6046> | I'm not the first one? |
| 17:04 | <Gustavo6046> | (It sounds balanced because of the one-way thing) |
| 17:04 | <supermop_Home> | as part of general new road stop and/or airport paradigm |
| 17:04 | <Gustavo6046> | yayy I think alike to the awesome openttd folks :DDDD |
| 17:04 | <Gustavo6046> | \o/ |
| 17:04 | <Gustavo6046> | that does sound like something that would go best in a NewGRF, though |
| 17:05 | <Gustavo6046> | maybe that kind of thing could be API-ified so it isn't as hardcoded? idk |
| 17:05 | <supermop_Home> | it would have to be a patch, because the statemachines for vehicle movement in those is hardcoded |
| 17:06 | <supermop_Home> | this is also why airports that use different runway layouts than standard require a patch |
| 17:06 | <Gustavo6046> | Ah :( |
| 17:07 | <Gustavo6046> | how about a patch that makes them patchable by newgrfs or something |
| 17:07 | <Gustavo6046> | patchception lol |
| 17:07 | <supermop_Home> | the idea is to instead provide some means to make new movement patterns by other means rather than hardcoded |
| 17:07 | <supermop_Home> | yes, |
| 17:07 | <supermop_Home> | someone called rich did some work on it about 10 years ago |
| 17:07 | <supermop_Home> | but it kind of petered out |
| 17:09 | <Gustavo6046> | bitrot? |
| 17:11 | <Gustavo6046> | petered out like in it didn't catch up with openttd development? |
| 17:12 | <andythenorth> | there was a disagreement |
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| 17:17 | <supermop_Home> | Gustavo6046 with trains you can do this at the end of the line that lets a late train pass an early one easily: |
| 17:17 | <supermop_Home> | https://imgur.com/YiHSIh9 |
| 17:17 | <Gustavo6046> | ah |
| 17:17 | <supermop_Home> | especially if the there is amble lay-up time |
| 17:18 | <supermop_Home> | i often schedule trains to wait the time between train on the schedule plus a few days at end of line |
| 17:19 | <supermop_Home> | that way train 1 doesn't try to leave until train 2 has arrived and cleared the jenction |
| 17:19 | <Gustavo6046> | ohhh, so if one is coming and another is leaving at the same time, they don't have to wait for one to go through the intersection between station lanes and the two-way rails each time? |
| 17:19 | <supermop_Home> | junction |
| 17:19 | <Gustavo6046> | my layout is often like this, basically a roundabout https://i.imgur.com/iWVrxGI.png |
| 17:19 | <supermop_Home> | basically this is what the subway here does at most end of line terminals |
| 17:20 | <Gustavo6046> | hmm, what if a train wants to leave from the depot into the railway? |
| 17:21 | <supermop_Home> | that's pretty uncommon - that depot is just for buying trains and starting them off |
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| 17:22 | <supermop_Home> | if i wanted to use it for servicing or replacing trains i'd probably design it differently |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | oh okay |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | how do you maintain the trains? |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | or service them, I think that's what maintenance refers to |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | oh waitttt |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | you disable breakdowdns |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | breakdowns* |
| 17:22 | <Gustavo6046> | I forgot :D |
| 17:23 | <_aD> | hey now, where's the challenge, when running 10-unit trains, without servicing? :-D |
| 17:25 | <Gustavo6046> | so, my roundabout station junction design is probably dumb and crapo |
| 17:25 | <_aD> | but is it beautiful? |
| 17:27 | <Gustavo6046> | I don't know, I'll let you be the judge of that. I linked a screenshot earlier |
| 17:28 | <supermop_Home> | https://imgur.com/I7Ae9rO |
| 17:29 | <supermop_Home> | this lets trains replace or service if needed and is still pretty functional |
| 17:29 | <supermop_Home> | you can of course add mor platforms or double the line coming into it |
| 17:30 | <supermop_Home> | again, I've scheduled the trains to wait at the station loading until the next one arrives, but you don't really need to |
| 17:32 | <Gustavo6046> | ah |
| 17:32 | <_aD> | oh that's much more svelte than mine :-\ |
| 17:33 | <Gustavo6046> | it's so simple yet so elegant |
| 17:33 | <Gustavo6046> | I generally avoid putting depots behind stations, not sure why |
| 17:33 | <Gustavo6046> | I guess so I can extend the station length if needed? |
| 17:37 | <_aD> | http://simplypeachy.co.uk/journal/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Quadruplex-Depot-design.png |
| 17:38 | <_aD> | pls excuse the non-path signals, don't taze me bro. |
| 17:38 | <supermop_Home> | i generally like to keep my stations at mines, farms etc as close as possible to simple sidings |
| 17:38 | <_aD> | Service before loading. |
| 17:38 | <_aD> | These were for long-distance journeys...them trains were haulin' for a while. |
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| 17:44 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #282: [nb_NO] Translator access request https://git.io/JSDae |
| 17:44 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #283: [nn_NO] Translator access request https://git.io/JSDaY |
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| 18:36 | <TrueBrain> | https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/58a388d5e396bba3ae3ec721d3d5fca3 <- added type definition .. now tomorrow we try to actually implement this :P |
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| 23:34 | <@DorpsGek> | [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] larryfenn opened pull request #9781: Change: Automatic screenshot numbering https://git.io/JS9P1 |
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| --- | Log | closed Thu Jan 06 00:00:17 2022 |
