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#openttd IRC Logs for 2022-01-09

---Logopened Sun Jan 09 00:00:21 2022
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02:19<Gustavo6046>Cities are fun but also kind of boring at the same time
02:19<Gustavo6046>Fun because they spread and respond to cargo in a way
02:19<Gustavo6046>Boring because, really, they don't do a whole lot other than passengers and mail and accepting goods or some other kinds of city cargo (like food and alcohol under FIRS).
02:22<Gustavo6046>I mean, yeah, there is a local authority which can get mad at you if you don't hug trees (and maybe do dubiously intimate things to them too), and the road reconstruction that can frustrate rival industries whenever they exist
02:22<Gustavo6046>And stuff like that
02:22<Gustavo6046>I just wish there were more ways cities could interact with you and with each other, though.
02:22<Gustavo6046>Maybe migration, maybe labour?
02:25<Gustavo6046>Maybe a city will keep track of nearby industries and have a slight passenger supply desire for those
02:25<Gustavo6046>Actually, uh, an industry will keep track of nearby cities and have a slight demand for passengers from them; the "supply desire" would probably be handled by Cargodist, and would already be with no additional effort
02:27<Gustavo6046>Maybe as time goes on the radius from which it can pick labour demand increases, kind of like pamphlets reaching wider, or the Internet
02:28<Gustavo6046>OR if you link up passenger lines to more cities, it'll eventually want passengers from those
02:29<Gustavo6046>And whenever you deliver a passenger from a city to an industry, that boosts the city's growth – labour is remunerated and the cities grow
02:29<Gustavo6046>yay for wage labour.... mehh...
02:31<Gustavo6046>still waiting for openttd socialist edition :PP
02:31<Gustavo6046>but I digress
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04:08<jlx_>Can anyone please tell me in which CMake source group "openttd.cpp" is?
04:09<jlx_>oh, does not matter. found it in src/CMakeLists.txt
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04:57<@peter1138>Oops, I overslept :(
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05:05*andythenorth trying to remember how complex functions work in maths
05:07<andythenorth>a map region that has a regular-if-complex boundary must be expressable as a function
05:07<andythenorth>which means that evaluating if an (x, y) is inside or outside is just maths
05:08<andythenorth>rectangle is easy, circle is easy
05:26<TrueBrain>its sunday
05:26<TrueBrain>stop doing math
05:28<andythenorth>I am not doing maths :P
05:28<andythenorth>I want the computer to do it :P
05:28<jlx_>"No available language packs (invalid versions?)" <- Anyone knows what that means?
05:29<TrueBrain>that your language packs are not compiled for your binary
05:29<TrueBrain>andythenorth: good, much better :)
05:29<jlx_>TrueBrain: I only compiled openttd from source... Did I compile it wrong? Or do I need to somehow install these packs?
05:29<TrueBrain>if you compiled from source, you also have new language files
05:30<TrueBrain>they come together, as a pair
05:30<TrueBrain>tightly hugging each other
05:31<jlx_>TrueBrain: I just did a "make install", and then run "/path/to/where/I/installed/games/openttd"
05:31<jlx_>is that wrong?
05:32<TrueBrain>I dunno, I can only tell you what the error means
05:32<TrueBrain>your executable is not finding the language files that were build together with it
05:41<jlx_>So, the language files are in the git repo "OpenTTD"?
05:42<TrueBrain>no, you compile them together with the binary
05:42<jlx_>where do I get these files from if they are not in git?
05:42<TrueBrain>you compile them
05:42<TrueBrain>together with your binary
05:43<TrueBrain>not really sure how to say that differently, sorry :)
05:43<TrueBrain>they are in your build folder
05:43<jlx_>you mean they are created during compilation?
05:43<TrueBrain>that is the wording I was using, yes :)
05:44<jlx_>share/games/openttd/lang/*.lng ?
05:44<jlx_>these things?
05:44<TrueBrain>in your build folder they exist; I do not know where your system leaves them after
05:44<TrueBrain>but yes, that smells a lot like language files :)
05:45<jlx_>hmm, I made a local install. Is it required to do a system install in order to find them?
05:45<TrueBrain>I do not know your OS, nor your setup, nor what a "local install" means for you
05:46<TrueBrain>but the executable needs to be able to find the language files
05:46<TrueBrain>depending on how you compiled it, that can mean several different thing
05:46<jlx_>Linux, I did a "cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/home/.../..."
05:53<jlx_>I just created a symlink because it searched in the wrong dir
05:54<jlx_>thanks anyways, TrueBrain
06:01<@peter1138>Hmm watch Wandavision they said...
06:29<TrueBrain>I always like if you setup your code good enough, adding features is easy
06:29<TrueBrain>adding variable support was like 5 lines of code :D
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06:38<andythenorth>I find I often need 5 lines
06:38<andythenorth>sadly I have to write 100 to discover that
06:39<andythenorth>mostly "print('foo is currently', foo)"
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07:06<jlx_>I did a Linux install via "cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/home/... .." and now OpenTTD complains about missing graphics (manual section 1.4). But the manual does not really tell me where to put the graphics.
07:06<jlx_>if my CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX is a/b/c, where do the graphics and sounds need to be?
07:13<nielsm>it should still be looking in the user profile
07:13<nielsm>~/.openttd/baseset/ I believe
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07:16<andythenorth>80+ vars for x and y
07:16<jlx_>nielsm: almost! it now found the graphics, but complains about the music. Though I put opengfx and opensfx into "baseset"
07:16*andythenorth copies from Tyler
07:17<andythenorth>why is GetTileY using '/ map_x_edge'?
07:18<andythenorth>is this some tile sequence thing?
07:19<nielsm>var 0x80 returns the tile id for the industry position:
07:19<nielsm>so by dividing that by the map X edge you get the Y coordinate
07:19<nielsm>map X edge length
07:20<andythenorth>rows and cols?
07:20*andythenorth wonders if we could teach nml to do this
07:20*andythenorth teaches FIRS to do it meanwhile
07:20<nielsm>row 0 has tiles 0 to 255, row 1 has tiles 256 to 511, row 2 has tiles 512 to 767, etc.
07:21<andythenorth>thanks :)
07:43*andythenorth ponders hexagonal regions
07:46<TrueBrain>owh boy
07:48<TrueBrain>hmm .. now to figure out how to do comparisons in a smart way ... it is tricky, as it means I need to generate several chains and emit switch-cases .. which I am currently not doing :D
07:48<TrueBrain>more infrastructure needed! :P
07:49*andythenorth wonders when to start porting FIRS to TrueGRF
07:50<TrueBrain>I need alpha testers when this is done for sure :P
07:50<andythenorth>it's either an impossible job, or an easy one :P
07:51<andythenorth>FIRS has been ported 3 times already
07:51<TrueBrain>I am using your FIRS 4.4, so that should be easy :P Not doing your "master" nonsense :P
07:51<andythenorth>nfo -> nml with CPP templates and variadic macros -> nml with python templating
07:54<nielsm>oh, you actually _can_ get a town's absolute map coordinate in GRF, with var 0x80 too
07:55<nielsm>so yeah it is possible to geographically divide the towns on the map into zones
07:58<andythenorth>different architecture styled north and south for example
07:58*andythenorth BBL
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09:19<jlx_>I have an openttd branch and some scripts that, combined, allow to export OpenTTD savefiles to graphs (via the dot tool) in PDF format. They aim is to let them look like typical subway maps. Should I work on a PR for this, or is it out of scope? The OpenTTD part consists of additions to YAPF and a "video driver" which does not display video, but just exports the map.
09:21<nielsm>there isn't really any precedent for including that kind of data export tools yet
09:22<nielsm>I think it'd be more likely to be accepted in a wholly different form, making a way for a gamescript to read the link graph and dump it to admin port
09:26<frosch123>openttd is a game, keep tools external please :)
09:26<frosch123>i would also think that everyone who can use "dot", probably can also compile ottd
09:29<jlx_>yes, the tools are in an external repo
09:30<jlx_>the video driver workaround is needed because I needed to drive the trains around a bit to get some result. This can probably done by script, too. Though we can also take the video driver solution now, and make a script version later which produces the same output
09:30<nielsm>I believe frosch means that your OpenTTD patch that adds the data export is _also_ part of the tools, and so doesn't have a place in the main branch
09:30<nielsm>look at the null video driver, it's already used for that kind of automation
09:31<nielsm>it runs the game for a specified number of ticks, and you can have it run a console command script to trigger the export or something
09:32<jlx_>I can take a look at this
09:32<frosch123>just keep you branch separate from main ottd. i don't see much benefit in including it. everyone who would be able to use it (run ottd in special mode, run futher tools), would also be able to use your branch
09:42<jlx_>What disadvantages do you see with adding export tools to the main branch? The advantages are clear to me, but the disadvantages? I'm just curious...
09:42<jlx_>It's seems really unusual for open source projects
09:42<nielsm>maintenance of a feature extremely few users will use
09:42<nielsm>it will bitrot and/or be a burden to developers who don't have interest in it
09:43<jlx_>I developped that thing 6 years ago, and rebasing it was just changing a few LOC, it was pretty easy. So the overhead seems minimal.
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10:06<FLHerne>jlx_: Why is it necessary to drive trains about?
10:06<LordAro>seems achievable just by reading the save file, imo
10:06<LordAro>no need for OTTD at all
10:07<FLHerne>I'd have thought any information you need for subway maps is either map data or orders
10:08<FLHerne>Autogenerated subway maps sound nice, I've drawn a few manually
10:08<FLHerne>although my track record of being able to make `dot` generate anything aesthetically tolerable is poor
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10:12<nielsm>the link graph is definitely stored in the save file, because it needs to be distributed and in sync between all clients in multiplayer
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10:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #218: Request: Add variable for xy coordinates of industries
10:53<andythenorth>did we discuss global random seed for newgrf recently?
10:54<andythenorth>I am splitting the map into regions 1/3 each for industry location
10:55<andythenorth>the order is consistent, but it would be nice to be able to randomly reverse it
10:55<andythenorth>and randomly choose orientation if the map is square (e.g. NE->SW, SW->NE, NW->SE, SE->NW)
11:44<jlx_>FLHerne: I'm not even 100% sure, because this code is so old, but I remember it was unavoidable back then. I wanted to know via which stations trains drive, even if they don't stop there.
11:46<jlx_>I think intermediate stations (where a train does not stop) are not in the savefile.
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11:55<andythenorth>FIRS region support :P
11:55<andythenorth>should I bother doing more than simple quadrants? :P
11:56<andythenorth>also to change the orientation wrt map, should I do a matrix transformation?
11:57*andythenorth can only think of a lot of conditional statements measuring map size :(
12:01<andythenorth>using numpy is probably overkill :P
12:02<andythenorth>hmm each orientation is just n 90 degree rotations of the default?
12:03<andythenorth>so 90 degree would min_x -> max_x, max_x -> min_y, min_y -> max_x, max_y -> min_x
12:03<andythenorth>where is Eddi to tell me there's a better way? :9
12:06<nielsm>90 drgree rotation around origin at (0,0) is (x,y)=(y,-x), or (x,y)=(-y,x), depending on direction
12:06<nielsm>so if you want to rotate around a point not at origin you'd translate that point to origin, apply rotation, translate back
12:08<andythenorth>if it's just a simple quadrant, I could store [min_x, max_x, min_y, max_y] then just pop and append?
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12:16<andythenorth>hmm not so simple in nml :P
12:16*andythenorth was doing it in the python side of the compile, which results in a useless static result :P
12:16<andythenorth>has to be switches
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12:45<FLHerne>jlx_: correct (unless the user's added them as 'go via' orders for some reason)
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13:50<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:50<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
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13:56<+glx>hmm I don't remember it's possible to change company color in main menu
13:56<Afdal>Was some kind of change made to the graphics zoom filtering recently?
13:56<Afdal>I feel like the graphics when I'm zoomed out look worse than usual
14:00<Afdal>Using the original TTD graphics here
14:00<LordAro>how recently is recently?
14:00<LordAro>(also, no, not that i recall)
14:01<Afdal>like uh
14:01<Afdal>since v10.something
14:01<Afdal>last six months or so
14:01<LordAro>plausibly opengl video renderer could make things look slightly different, but that's been around for a couple years now
14:01<LordAro>and no one else has reported anything similar
14:02<Afdal>well a friend I'm playing with feels similarly
14:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted
14:02<Afdal>zooming out is a bit of an eyesore now
14:03<LordAro>you're welcome to download older versions to compare against
14:03<Afdal>yeah I'll have to do that later
14:03<Afdal>I think v1.11 was the last version I played
14:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted
14:05*LordAro waits for james to ask for a savegame
14:08<Afdal>maybe I'm just going crazy
14:08<Afdal>Too used to the smooth vectorized scaling of Mindustry :o
14:08<LordAro>change of graphics card/monitor recently?
14:09<Afdal>only thing that's changed is my distro
14:09<LordAro>then maybe just you :)
14:09<Afdal>moved from one Debian-based distro to another
14:09<LordAro>though graphics driver could conceivably change something
14:09<LordAro>i guess?
14:09<Afdal>yeah I'm looking at the game on an older version on a different computer
14:09<Afdal>Maybe I was just imagining things
14:09<Afdal>gotta get used to the look again...
14:10<Afdal>what directory do graphics go in again?
14:10<Afdal>so I can test this properly
14:11<LordAro>documented in the readme :)
14:14<Afdal>Yep okay, guess I temporarily lost my mind
14:14<Afdal>there's been no change to the graphics
14:15<Afdal>Just gotta get used to OpenTTD jaggies again :)
14:15<Afdal>I've been spoiled on games with vectorized graphics
14:15<LordAro>for some reason, lots of people like z/abase
14:16<Afdal>I actually remember not liking that the last time I tried it
14:16<Afdal>for the same reason I prefer the original TTD graphics
14:16<Afdal>the open stuff looks too sterile for me tbh
14:17<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:17<Afdal>though arguably the open stuff handles zooming better
14:17<Afdal>since it's higher resolution
14:27<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
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14:28<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:41<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted
14:45<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:52<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted
14:54<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech closed issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted
14:54<LordAro>le facepalm
14:55<frosch123>haha, that's the first thing i thought... just did not know how to ask about it politely :p
14:56<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
14:58<LordAro>frosch123: ah, so your crystal ball is working today?
15:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
15:01<frosch123>yeah, it's a bad gui :)
15:02<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
15:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
15:03<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech closed issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
15:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh reopened issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
15:04<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts
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15:10<@peter1138>Not a regression, it has absolutely always been that way in that window.
15:10<nielsm>it was better in very old versions
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15:18<+glx>didn't clicking on the "label" used to click on the "arrow" ?
15:18<LordAro>at the very least it should do that
15:22<Afdal>ugh, ctrl-clicking only toggles path signals types now?
15:22<Afdal>How do I set that back to the default behavior?
15:22<+glx>there's a button on top right of the signal window
15:22<Afdal>that's only for placing them
15:22<Afdal>I want the ctrl-click behavior back
15:23<Afdal>it's too tedious to click back and forth between signals types on the selection window
15:23<+glx>yes the button will enable advanced block signals
15:23<Afdal>Yes, it allows for their selection from the window
15:23<+glx>and affects cycling too
15:23<Afdal>what it doesn't do is allow for their selection when toggling signals by cycling
15:24<Afdal>Well I'm not seein it...
15:24<andythenorth>frosch123 I'm not missing some obvious thing I can use for global random in grf? :)
15:24<+glx>anyway you can also check in the settings
15:24<+glx>search for "signal"
15:25<frosch123>andythenorth: didn't we discuss that the other day?
15:25<frosch123>somehow the game-id got lots in discussion
15:25<frosch123>currently you only have start-year :p
15:25<Afdal>aha, found it
15:25<Afdal>thank you
15:25<Afdal>whew -_-
15:26<andythenorth>start year could work, but I tend to use 'newgame' a lot :P
15:26<andythenorth>is there any reason to not expose the map seed (other than 'work')?
15:27<frosch123>i found an old discussion in a PR
15:28<frosch123>the idea was to use a separate new seed, which would change when starting a game from mapgen, heightmap or scenario
15:28*andythenorth looks
15:28<frosch123>map seed only works for mapgen
15:28<andythenorth> ?
15:28<frosch123>but the PR was closed for something else
15:28<supermop_Home>ooh i want that for bus stops
15:28<andythenorth>I closed 5487 as 'not making progress'
15:29<frosch123>oh, i did not find that one
15:29<frosch123>that one is more like "make it similar to ai/gs"
15:29<andythenorth>grf spec change seems to demand 'at least one valid use case so someone actually tests it'
15:29<andythenorth>but the spec can't just be for one use case
15:29<andythenorth>goldilocks problem
15:29<supermop_Home>use case is random style of bus stop roofs per game
15:30<andythenorth>anyway I just want to orientate regions on a map N-S or S-N
15:30<andythenorth>and the other various directions, depending on map shape
15:37<+glx>you have action D var13 for that
15:40<+glx>I think map_XXX in nml uses that
15:44<+glx>yup var13
15:45<+glx>ha and is outdated, MAP_TYPE_RECTANGULAR has been rename MAP_TYPE_SQUARE
15:49<andythenorth>yeah I missed 'random' out of my use case above :)
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16:20<Gustavo6046>I will transport chemicals from the FIRS port to the metal workshop
16:20<Gustavo6046>It definitely does not include lysergic acid diethylamide
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16:25<Afdal>Is there some way to map zooming to something other than scrollwheel?
16:26<nielsm>shift-f5 and shift-f6
16:26<nielsm>numpad plus and minus
16:27<nielsm>and of course clicking the buttons on the toolbar
16:28<andythenorth>Gustavo6046 Steel Town has ACID and COKE
16:28<andythenorth>legit cargos
16:28<andythenorth>and a rolling mill
16:29<Gustavo6046>I was sure most people wouldn't recognize the full name and would just think "oh, probably some random boring reactant from some boring industrial process"
16:29<Gustavo6046>but yeah you were quick to catch it!
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17:58<andythenorth>the industry map-scaling was never tuned for lots of industry types :P
17:58<andythenorth>FIRS Steeltown does ok with 31 industries
17:58<andythenorth>I have another economy with 40 industries, and it's only placing 1 or 2 of most of them
17:59<andythenorth>512x256, 'normal' industry density
18:09<andythenorth>GG andythenorth WP, broke it again :D
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 10 00:00:23 2022