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#openttd IRC Logs for 2022-01-11

---Logopened Tue Jan 11 00:00:24 2022
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09:21<supermop_Home>yo
09:28<supermop_Home>TrueBrain can your tool export a grf?
09:29<+glx>you mean the "download: grf" button ?
09:30<supermop_Home>oooh
09:34<supermop_Home>'industry of Hawaii' is actually not that interesting
09:35<supermop_Home>tourism and defense are the biggest parts, but most of that 'defense' part is just people going to work at some office job at pearl harbor
09:37<supermop_Home>the rest, like sugar cane/macadamia/pineapple would just be farm->packing plant -> port, or farm ->port
09:39<supermop_Home>then there would be farm ->houses and fish ->houses, and port ->oil refinery ->gas station
09:40<supermop_Home>tourism is less tourists ->beach, and more workers commute to hotels or restaurants
09:43<supermop_Home>man too bad industries can't define custom fields yet
09:46<supermop_Home>so can have both pineapple fields and cow pastures
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11:12<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #9782: [Bug]: Dedicated server requires useless client_name https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/9782
11:21<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #9787: Rainforest is visually indistinguishable from regular grass https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/9787
11:41<supermop_Home>hmm i guess it would have been easier to start this from a 'in a hot country' template than steeltown
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11:50<supermop_Home>Should a sugar refinery make food, or refined sugar, or like specialty food?
11:50<supermop_Home>or goods?
11:52<supermop_Home>is taro root FOOD, or is it something that gets made into food at a secondary industry?
11:52<nielsm>sugar and molasses
11:53<supermop_Home>nielsm Hawaii had lots of sugar refineries, but few rum distilleries
11:53<nielsm>also important, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood
11:53<supermop_Home>so idk if it goes plantation->refinery->export, or plantation->refinery->houses
11:54<nielsm>industrial scale would make most sense to export and other industries, not directly to houses
11:55<nielsm>unless you also have a dentist equipment cargo that needs to be delivered to the houses in equal amounts
11:55<supermop_Home>pineapples also weird, as today its mostly pineapple->air freight to mainland, before was pineapple->cannery->sea freight
11:55<supermop_Home>nielsm haha
11:56<supermop_Home>i guess its just like, what supplies food to houses, what supplies goods
11:56<supermop_Home>is a luxury like rum or refined sugar really just goods
11:58<supermop_Home>macadamia nuts i don't think are distinct from pineapples in terms of cargo flow
11:58<nielsm>it would kind of make most sense to deliver the consumer goods to a "retail distribution center" of sorts
11:58<supermop_Home>i guess andy did all this already
11:59<supermop_Home>nielsm or airfreight warehouse that spawns next to large airports?
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12:02<supermop_Home>i got Taro Farm, Sugar Plantation, Coffee Plantation, Pineapple Farm, Mac nut grove, Logging camp, (Import ports)
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12:57<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #9788: [Crash]: Crash on Mac OSX when using 32-bpp basest https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/9788
12:58<supermop_Home>then Sugar Refinery, Packing plant, lumber mill, (export ports)
12:59<supermop_Home>seems plenty to provide background scenery
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14:29<andythenorth>yo
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15:05<supermop_Home>hi andy
15:07<Gustavo6046>why isn't there a way to see the financial flow of your company? like a directed graph that shows where money comes and goes
15:07<Gustavo6046>probably because nobody thinked about it and tbh it's a bit of a weird idea
15:08<supermop_Home>there is the financial details window
15:08<andythenorth>cos it's not needed? :)
15:08<supermop_Home>it shows the costs and revenues for various things
15:09<Gustavo6046>yeah
15:09<supermop_Home>anything more detailed than that, the game doesn't know either
15:09<Gustavo6046>but visual intuition could help, also a graph structuer is more flexible and could allow, say, displaying grouped vehicles separately
15:09<Gustavo6046>so you can tell which routes are more profitable
15:09<Gustavo6046>well, "it doesn't know" sometimes is a good reason, sometimes not - you can add members to the vehicle group struct that tally things like that, you know!
15:09<Gustavo6046>I forgot the name for the graph thing that shows where money goes
15:10<Gustavo6046>like directed graph
15:10<supermop_Home>your money doesn't go anywhere tho, its all just held in one big pile
15:11<Gustavo6046>true
15:11<Gustavo6046>but in a business model, there are multiple sources and sinks where money comes from and goes to
15:12<Gustavo6046>hmm
15:12<Gustavo6046>you're right, maybe it'd make more sense if there was more financial depth to the game, like idk, regional franchising with AI?
15:12<supermop_Home>the running costs etc are shown in the financial details window
15:12<Gustavo6046>hmm
15:12<Gustavo6046>would "looks cool" be a good enough reason?
15:12<supermop_Home>sure
15:13<supermop_Home>but for most people it probably looks like work
15:13<supermop_Home>i have to stress out about budgeting enough at work already
15:14<supermop_Home>there is also the difficulty of, beyond the running cost of a group, how do you allocate their share of the infrastructure costs
15:18<Gustavo6046>hmm
15:19<Gustavo6046>if there is a function internally that iterates over every vehicle to calculate infrastructure costs, in that loop you figure the individual contribution before adding it to a infrrastructure cost accumulator variable, right? put it somewhere else too and use that "somewhere else"
15:19<supermop_Home>andythenorth where do macadamia nuts go
15:20<Gustavo6046>also, looks like work? most people in office jobs don't do cool diagrams, they do boring spreadsheets, they are minnows in capitalism
15:21<supermop_Home>infrastructure costs are generated by pieces of track, not vehicles
15:21<Gustavo6046>oh
15:21<Gustavo6046>then you probably don't group tracks...
15:21<Gustavo6046>OR you let the player define like "regions" of the map
15:21<Gustavo6046>it's pretty much just giving a name to an area of arbitrary shape
15:22<Gustavo6046>so let's say this chunk of tiles here is the Bentford-Ashway Area
15:22<Gustavo6046>and this other chunk of tiles here is the Minfing-Judith Market Area
15:22<supermop_Home>but a train service can still be unprofitable even if the trains earn more revenue than running costs, if the cost of the track they run on is high
15:23<Gustavo6046>like maybe this player in particular likes making large central lines and small feeder networks around each end, and call each area after it
15:23<Gustavo6046>supermop_Home, well, that will be representable in the graph; a thick line will come from "Train Income" to the pool, and two lines whose summed width is larger will jot out, one to "Train Running Costs", one to "Infrastructure Costs", the thing is the latter might also be for every other kind of transportation
15:23<supermop_Home>well yes, accounting for all these ways to divide up costs and revenue is down to decisions the player makes, not anything the game could know about it's internal state
15:23<Gustavo6046>so we might be looking at grouping infrastructure costs by vehicle type too
15:24<Gustavo6046>yeah
15:24<Gustavo6046>maybe some other kind of accounting reltaed notetaking would be nice
15:24<supermop_Home>so i guess its best to just keep excel open in another window if that interests you?
15:25<supermop_Home>i think there ar ways to export game information to csv or something
15:25<supermop_Home>but this is basically accounting
15:25<supermop_Home>if i found accounting to be that fun, i'd be an accountant
15:27<supermop_Home>i wouldn't complain if the game had more graphs and spreadsheets, i just don't think i would look at them much personally?
15:28<supermop_Home>i guess money feels too meaningless in the game to fret over it much
15:28<Gustavo6046>true
15:28<Gustavo6046>money in the game is a bit of a shallow thing
15:29<supermop_Home>as even with very punishing settings, there are ways to quickly make more money than you need
15:29<Gustavo6046>you either have a lot or you have a little or you're in debt and unable to fix it and about to lose the game
15:29<Gustavo6046>I was thinking it could be considered like some sort of score counter, like in arcade games, so people would race to maximize it
15:29<Gustavo6046>capitalism in a nutshell
15:30<supermop_Home>i play to make cute little trains drive around
15:30<supermop_Home>everything else is just the scenery
15:31<Gustavo6046>yay
15:31<_dp_>game economy is dead simple, even in money goal games you don't need fancy diagrams to analyze it
15:31<Gustavo6046>i play to move cargo around
15:31<Gustavo6046>I really like cargodist
15:31<Gustavo6046>because it makes it feel more fun to transport cargo around
15:31<Gustavo6046>it's like each little city you add to the network has an impact in the netire network
15:31<_dp_>there is already grouping by transport type and vehicle groups and there are patches for income by cargo but that's about it
15:32<Gustavo6046>and sometimes it's all you need for a line to become congested and needing some expansion or something
15:32<Gustavo6046>which is so satisfying, adds depth to the honestly boring simplicity of transport
15:32<Gustavo6046>the vehicles themselves don't excite me a whole lot either
15:33<Gustavo6046>unlike some people here, I'm not going to be browsing for the names and stats of 900 engines from manufacturers all across the world from various periods in modern history :p
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16:26<supermop_Home>listening to podcast now nielsm
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17:04<_dp_>is there some way to avoid typing same directory over and over when searching different patterns with grep/ag?
17:05<FLHerne>!$ ?
17:06<FLHerne>(expands to last part of the previous command)
17:06<FLHerne>so `grep foo aaa/bbb` `greb bar !$`
17:07<_dp_>yeah, but what if last is not grep
17:07<_dp_>I kinda found an ok solution though
17:07<_dp_>echo ../src | xargs ag test
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 12 00:00:25 2022