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#openttd IRC Logs for 2022-01-13

---Logopened Thu Jan 13 00:00:27 2022
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05:23<LordAro>https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1749908 Oops.
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>looks like there's a fix for that already in the pipeline?
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09:39<supermop_Home>hello
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10:21<supermop_Home>slightly happier with these shops: https://imgur.com/a/8lZNJsG
10:21<supermop_Home>as compared to https://imgur.com/a/Su69dYl
10:40<supermop_Home>probably need to tone down the bright spots on the parapet and add some roof greeble
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11:23<supermop_Home>yet another andy
11:27<frosch123>truck driver crisis must be harsh. now openttd.org gets special deals to hire some :p
11:27<frosch123>(in swedish even)
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12:41<TrueBrain>LordAro: follow-up: https://phabricator.services.mozilla.com/D135871
12:41<TrueBrain>lol
12:43<TrueBrain>https://github.blog/changelog/2022-01-11-git-io-no-longer-accepts-new-urls/ <- that came out of the blue ...
12:44<dwfreed>that's ridiculous
12:44<TrueBrain>at least some grace period would have been nice
12:45<TrueBrain>guess we have to learn DorpsGek a new trick ..
12:46<TrueBrain>bit annoying, as using a trusted domain was kinda nice .. using "any of the other services out there" is risky business :P
12:46<frosch123>https://github.com/nelsontky/gh-pages-url-shortener <- use gh as db again :p
12:47<TrueBrain>lolz
12:47<TrueBrain>nasty
12:49<frosch123>not sure how useful it is in case of dorpsgek
12:50<TrueBrain>it isn't useful :P
12:50<frosch123>dorpsgek seems to link to the same type of urls anyway
12:50<TrueBrain>it was just nice to have a very short URL at the end of everything
12:51<TrueBrain>and I kinda refuse to use bitly :P
12:52<LordAro>opent.td is only £242.52/year :p
12:52<nielsm>revive bugs.openttd.org to be slightly smarter?
12:53<LordAro>ot.td is unavailable :p
12:53<nielsm>lige bugs.openttd.org/1234
12:53<TrueBrain>nielsm: that is hardly shorter ;)
12:53<TrueBrain>LordAro: ot.td! YES! :D
12:53<frosch123>you need at least project + issue + comment number
12:54<frosch123>oh, i did not notice that dorpsgek already switched silently to full urls
12:54<frosch123>does it do that when the shortening fails?
12:54<TrueBrain>yes
12:54<TrueBrain>LordAro did a good job
12:55<frosch123>impressive code quality :)
12:55<LordAro>apparently!
12:56<TrueBrain>who did a good job?
12:56<TrueBrain>WHO DID A GOOD JOB
12:56<TrueBrain>WANT A COOKIE
12:56<TrueBrain>(imagine that in a voice you use while talking to a dog, ofc)
12:56<LordAro>i got that :p
12:57<TrueBrain>godaddy says ot.td is no (longer) available
12:57<TrueBrain>lol?
12:57<TrueBrain>no, seems to be not available, awh
12:57<TrueBrain>owh, you said that
12:57<LordAro>that's what i said :p
12:57<TrueBrain>lol
12:57<TrueBrain>misread the "un" part :D
12:57<TrueBrain>READING HARD
12:59<frosch123>is there a limit on how short a domain is allowed?
12:59<frosch123>is ot.td unavilable because someone has it, or because it is too short?
12:59<nielsm>depends on the registry
12:59<TrueBrain>Domain Name: ot.td
12:59<TrueBrain>Domain Status: No Object Found
12:59<nielsm>some don't sell any shorter than 3 or 4
13:00<nielsm>for the second level name
13:01<frosch123>looks like there are 2 letter com domains
13:01<frosch123>did not expect that
13:26<TrueBrain>people keep telling me the Hz of the powernet is always 50Hz on average ..
13:26<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/273533192601075712/931252824078159923/unknown.png
13:26<TrueBrain>I kinda disagree :P
13:26<TrueBrain>also, powernet goes BSSSSS
13:27<TrueBrain>today the net also dropped 3V within 5 minutes twice :P
13:27<TrueBrain>always amazes me how much in flux this all is
13:29<_dp_>isn't power frequency quite a big deal because of clocks?
13:29<_dp_>there was quite some fuss in eu when it suddenly changed
13:41<frosch123>TrueBrain: it is 50Hz in europe, and it is very stable over long time
13:41<TrueBrain>I never see spikes
13:41<TrueBrain>only dips
13:41<frosch123>3 years ago there was a big drama between serbia and neighbouring contry
13:42<TrueBrain>but I only see days; so possibly they correct it in the night :P
13:42<frosch123>which lead to a power imbalance over multiple month
13:42<frosch123>which resulted in a drift of 15 minutes or something
13:42<TrueBrain>I know the stories
13:42<frosch123>it was later caught up
13:42<TrueBrain>but my sensors give kinda an other image ;)
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13:46<frosch123>49.9 is still okay, starting with 49.8 some automatic may decide to depower you :)
13:47<TrueBrain>these drops of today were, for a change, not something I caused :P
13:47<+glx>it's the cold, it increases demand and lowers frequency
13:47<frosch123>https://gridradar.net/de/blog/post/unterfrequenz_januar_2021 <- last year they reached 49.75, and split europe in two parts
13:47<TrueBrain>glx: and how do you explain a similar issue in the summer? :D
13:48<+glx>AC
13:48<TrueBrain>frosch123: okay, so it indeed isn't me :P
13:48<TrueBrain>glx: which I didn't own last year
13:48<TrueBrain>:P
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13:48<TrueBrain>if the argument is: it is always below 50Hz because NNN
13:48<TrueBrain>then there is a serious flaw in "it should always be 50Hz" :P
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13:50<+glx>production and consumption must be equal, but it's almost impossible to achieve
13:51<TrueBrain>there is a huge difference between "not achieving" and "always below" ;)
13:52<frosch123>i once wrote software that checks whether power plants deliver power with the contractionally agreed amount and precision
13:53<frosch123>the announcement that such softwar existed immediately resulted in an improvement of the deliveries
13:53<TrueBrain>haha
13:53<TrueBrain>shocker :P
13:53<TrueBrain>initial I was thinking my Hz sensing was off, which kinda would have been a problem for various of reasons
13:53<TrueBrain>but it is pretty accurate
13:53<TrueBrain>but it, on average, always being below 50Hz surprised me
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13:56<TrueBrain>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/273533192601075712/931260438916784199/unknown.png
13:56<TrueBrain>to give you a bit of an idea how much below 50Hz it has been all year :P
13:59<frosch123>then i blame your sensor :)
13:59<frosch123>https://www.netzfrequenz.info/histogramm-vortag <- that's yesterday
13:59<TrueBrain>I am curious how that looks over time
14:01<frosch123>https://www.entsoe.eu/data/transparency-platform/ <- it should be somewhere there, just cannot find it :)
14:02<TrueBrain>I was looking at tennet, who shows a lot of data
14:02<TrueBrain>just not Hz :P
14:02<TrueBrain>(from what I can find)
14:02<andythenorth_>is cat?
14:03<frosch123>you do not have to look at tennet, frequency is the same all over europe, with the exceptional days :)
14:03<TrueBrain>I know ..... but as it happened to be my supplier and ahs a lot of data, I was looking there
14:03<TrueBrain>sometimes a remark is just a remark .. it is funny they have tons of data
14:03<TrueBrain>just not Hz
14:04<frosch123>tennet is one of the largest, maybe edf is larger, but i cannot think of a third
14:05<TrueBrain>mostly it surprises me that there is a lot of blabla that is is REALLY stable .. but it is hard to find a source for good data about it :)
14:07<frosch123>hmm, most statistics stop in 2018, maybe some legislation changed
14:07<frosch123>unfortunetely that's also about the time my insider info stopped, so maybe it's because i changed job :p
14:07<TrueBrain>CORRELATION! :D
14:08<TrueBrain>https://gridradar.net/en/net-time
14:08<TrueBrain>at least something more decent
14:09<frosch123>haha, so they were aiming for 0 seconds on 2022-01-01 00:00
14:09<TrueBrain>I still want to know how this goes over a 24h period .. :D
14:09<TrueBrain>well, it is always 0 if you reset the clock at that moment ;)
14:11<frosch123>https://www.netzfrequenz.info/verlauf-1-stunde-mit-daten-aus-den-vorjahren <- they compare it with same day and time of previous year
14:11<frosch123>so apparently thee is a predictable drop at 20:00
14:11<TrueBrain>lol
14:11<TrueBrain>recalibration? :)
14:13<TrueBrain>but either way .. seems I should be getting another sensor, to validate the other :D
14:15<TrueBrain>if you start looking for this, it is amazing how many incidents there are with the grid
14:15<TrueBrain>and how many failsafes kick in :P
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17:48<Wormnest>Trying to update my ai NoNoCAB I get an error filling in dependency Queue.BinaryHeap (https://bananas.openttd.org/package/ai-library/51554248)
17:48<Wormnest>I tried ai-library/51554248, 51554248, and Queue.BinaryHeap
17:49<andythenorth_>oops I 402-ed bananas
17:49<andythenorth_>502-ed
17:49<supermop_Home>oops
17:49<andythenorth_>oops
17:49<andythenorth_>yeah we crashed it :)
17:50<andythenorth_>might be back
17:50<wiscii>train wreck !
17:51<wiscii>why do all my planes eventually crash ?
17:55<_dp_>unless using cheats planes always have a small chance to crash
17:56<wiscii>hmm .. this is the fear i had
17:56<wiscii>basically, planes have a 100% failure rate
17:57<wiscii>because you can't pull over in the sky ..
17:57<Wormnest>I´ll try again later
17:57<wiscii>i gave up with them, they pissed me off so much!
17:57<wiscii>openttd, there is an FAA
17:59<wiscii>in the early days of aviation then sure, planes will crash
17:59<supermop_Home>not in openttd
18:00<wiscii>but as the game progresses it becomes absolutely ludicrous for ALL PLANES to eventually crash and burn
18:00<wiscii>as if any passengers are going to pay for that
18:00<supermop_Home>andythenorth_ too many 60s buildings to choose from
18:00<andythenorth_>choose the red one
18:00<wiscii>every single plane has a 100% chance to crash and burn, just not this flight, maybe
18:02<wiscii>i started routing all my flights directly over residential, just for the thrill
18:02<nielsm>pretty sure regular crashes are disabled by a regular game setting, only big planes landing at small airports is unavoidable without the cheat
18:03<wiscii>the last time i gave it a real test was version 10,x , maybe something has improved, haven't tested
18:04<wiscii>or maybe i left plane crashes on for the realism and then found a 100% failure rate to be insanity :)
18:06<wiscii>don't get me wrong, i understand the maths .. just would like to improve it
18:07<wiscii>for example: each plane type could start with a 100% failure rate but that can drop to zero in time, so that planes become reliable
18:07<andythenorth_>new Horse
18:07<andythenorth_>such Horse
18:07<andythenorth_>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=71219&start=300
18:07<wiscii>if you really want accidental crashes then at least make the chance really really small
18:10<nielsm>yeah if plane crashes is set to the lowest setting, planes won't crash randomly as long as it isn't big plane on small airport
18:11<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp#L1369
18:11<wiscii>yeah, that looks like a new setting to me
18:13<wiscii>i think i left it on on purpose but found the setting to be annoying
18:13<wiscii>i'll try reduced
18:14<wiscii>but instintively, I feel this will still result in 100% failure rate, eventually
18:14<wiscii>and that's the bit i don't like
18:16<nielsm>well yes, if you run the same vehicles forever they will eventually crash if the probability is non-zero
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18:17<wiscii>please, do not misunderstand. i completely understand the problem.
18:18<nielsm>you can calculate the probability of a crash for each landing, how many landings one plane on average makes a year, and calculate a median time before failure
18:18<wiscii>i just feel like there is a much smarter way to do plane crashes than the absolutely deterministic one in place, regardless of reduced settings.
18:19<wiscii>from the point of view of a game, i guess
18:19<FLHerne>This is also true of breakdowns
18:19<FLHerne>and yet no-one has ever established a consensus for any specific alternative
18:20<nielsm>you mean something you can influence by choices regarding vehicle model, servicing, frequency, airport type, etc.?
18:22<supermop_Home>its about as non-deterministic as it gets I think, unless you have a radioisotope random number source of some kind connected to your computer?
18:22<wiscii>i think the simplest idea i have had goes like this:
18:23<wiscii>each plane type starts with a base line reliability, just like a train
18:23<wiscii>but
18:23<FLHerne>supermop_Home: I'm reading "deterministic" as "inevitable and impossible to influence"
18:23<wiscii>each time a plane crashes, the rest of the fleet of those type of planes become 50% more reliable, for example
18:24<supermop_Home>at least some amount of real world plane crashes definitely occur outside of anything the airline could have chosen to do,
18:24<wiscii>oh, the deterministic is exactly that eventually every single plane will crash with normal settings
18:24<wiscii>i find that hard to work with
18:24<supermop_Home>although in this day and age its exceedingly rare
18:25<supermop_Home>if you flew every real plan on earth forever, eventually all of them would crash?
18:25<supermop_Home>but I do think crashes should be 2-3 orders of magnitude less common in gam
18:25<supermop_Home>e
18:25<wiscii>the point i would try to make, is that for each type of plane, they become successively more "veteran" as a crash happens involving one of the same type
18:25<wiscii>the FAA step in and fix the problem
18:26<supermop_Home>wouldn't it be the other way around, as they accrue metal fatigue
18:26<FLHerne>well, eventually they run out of fatigue life and start breaking up in flight
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18:26<wiscii>eventually, a well use plane type will have virtually zero chance of crashing
18:26<FLHerne>see Aloha Airlines 243
18:26<supermop_Home>wiscii I think that's the opposite of real life
18:27<wiscii>i do not think of each plane unit as a single entity but more a representation of a flight path
18:27<supermop_Home>777 had no crashes across the type for nearly 20 years
18:28<wiscii>ah .. well now, ottd has economy for that sort of corruption ;-)
18:28<supermop_Home>although I guess act of war, act of sabotage, and pilot error aren't really well modelled in game
18:28<wiscii>i am trying to change how random plane crashes are calculated
18:29<FLHerne>I feel like for gameplay purposes, inevitable plane crashes are probably deliberate
18:29<supermop_Home>although I guess the non-zero chance of crash even with perfect maintenance is essentially accounting for pilot error
18:29<supermop_Home>FLHerne exactly
18:29<FLHerne>Like UFOs blowing up rail and road infrastructure, it means you can't just build and forget
18:30<wiscii>FLHerne: possibly, and i am not critisizing that decision outright. just discussing the option of another approach
18:30<supermop_Home>planes are already so overpowered, if they literally ran on their own forever they'd be worse
18:30<FLHerne>also, for normal players it's difficult to build a rail or road network that's guaranteed not to deadlock
18:30<wiscii>but one that can be programmed not just pulled out my arse ;-)
18:30<FLHerne>whereas it's almost impossible to screw up planes
18:31<wiscii>hmm.. ok
18:31<wiscii>but the choice then is crashes on or off ?
18:31<wiscii>seems like room for improvement to me
18:31<FLHerne>wiscii: tbh, we already have a second approach of "turn off plane crashes", so yours would be a third approach :p
18:31<wiscii>after all, these are sprites lives !
18:31<FLHerne>and is that really needed?
18:32<FLHerne>As supermop_Home says, the real gameplay fix would be to make planes crash a lot more
18:32<wiscii>personally, i believe it would add a new dimension to planes, that they be much more reliable and with a progression stage.
18:32<supermop_Home>or make the player try to land the plane!
18:33<wiscii>yeah right, halo style
18:33<wiscii>or GTA
18:34<wiscii>hell, why not ASCII :-)
18:34<supermop_Home>wiscii you'd need someway to handicap mismanaged planes at least, rather than just a bonus for plane over time
18:34<wiscii>very well
18:34<wiscii>how about this then ?
18:35<supermop_Home>currently its: Planes are very easy and require almost no player attention
18:35<wiscii>instead of taking off on their doomed voyage, the plane is auto-retired
18:35<wiscii>sorry but i disagree with the over powered plane idea
18:36<nielsm>if my calculation is right, at "reduced" plane crashes, a plane should have 95.1165% chance of surviving 10,000 landings
18:36<supermop_Home>if they got more reliable as they went on, it would be: Planes are very easy and require almost no player attention, AND they get easier and require less attention with time
18:36<wiscii>nielsm: i will check the reduced rate soon
18:37<wiscii>thanks for the calculation :)
18:37<nielsm>and 90,2560% chance at "normal" crashes
18:37<wiscii>meh .. ok
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18:37<wiscii>but i still believe there is a sweeter spot for the setting
18:38<supermop_Home>I accept that maybe some non-crash way to handicap planes would be nice
18:38<supermop_Home>also plane breakdowns are pretty silly
18:38<wiscii>exactly ;-)
18:39<nielsm>and at a pretty generous 25 landings per year for a plane (probably none have that many, taxiing takes up so much time) it takes 400 years to get 10,000 landings
18:39<supermop_Home>but you can't do too much with plane handling at airports etc, because there is almost nothing the player can do about that
18:40<wiscii>the way i looked at it, at the time, when these planes were falling out of the sky on me !!! was, maybe if they could get more reliable that would add a layer to the game play .. but then i see that they fall away to nothing as well
18:40<wiscii>without a penalty or something
18:40<wiscii>the fun is in the tracks after all ;-)
18:41<wiscii>loco-power !
18:41<supermop_Home>if the plane gameplay was more about designing well functioning routes and airports, then it would make sense for crashes to be real rare black swan type events
18:41<wiscii>yep
18:42<wiscii>you have all convinced me
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18:58<nielsm>https://0x0.st/o-9A.png
18:58<nielsm>graph
18:59<supermop_Home>do the temperate grass and rock sprites need to get replaced by replacenew?
19:00<supermop_Home>maybe an artificial cap of 0% crash for the first X number of pressurization cycles?
19:01<supermop_Home>and then the crash chance kicks in?
19:01<supermop_Home>i'd also like more non-fatal crash types
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19:02<supermop_Home>like a crash that breaks down the plane on runway or at gate
19:02<supermop_Home>or sends it to depot
19:02<_dp_>supermop_Home, no, grass and rock are base sprites
19:02<supermop_Home>or distracted ground crew loaded incorrect amt of fuel and now plane must divert
19:03<supermop_Home>temperate grass seems to show up in the terrain pngs instead of the big ogfx sprite sheet
19:03<supermop_Home>*tropic
19:03<supermop_Home>sorry
19:03<supermop_Home>tropic grass
19:05<wiscii>how about this then: RANDOMLY EXPLODING TRAINS
19:05<wiscii>?
19:05<_dp_>idk about sprite sheets but nml docs list all new sprites: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Replace_new_sprites
19:05<_dp_>for landscape only some coastal tiles are new
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19:07<wiscii>for example, an oil spill
19:07<wiscii>or maybe an animal stampede
19:07<wiscii>hang on ..
19:09<wiscii>yeah, there could be a likewise "Train disaster" function
19:09<wiscii>after all, a plane malfunction is always terminal
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19:11<wiscii>diamond robbery
19:12<wiscii>driver fatigue
19:12<wiscii>signal failure
19:12<wiscii>leaves on the line ...
19:13<wiscii>unattended luggage
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19:18<wiscii>postal strike!
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19:18<wiscii>fuel shortage
19:18<FLHerne>wiscii: There's the UFO I mentioned earlier that lands on railway lines and blows them up
19:18<wiscii>ah lol :)
19:19<wiscii>right then aliens it is! ;-)
19:19<FLHerne>also coal mine collapses can destroy rail if it's in the way
19:19<wiscii>i've never had one collapse, in fact
19:20<FLHerne>https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Manual/Disasters#large-ufo
19:20<wiscii>probably need to do a mining heavy scenario
19:20<FLHerne>For some reason it only happens between 1950 and 1985
19:21<FLHerne>(the mine collapse)
19:22<FLHerne>I believe the original TTD UFO sprites are straight out of an XCOM game, which was also MicroProse
19:22<wiscii>hehehe :)
19:22<wiscii>i actually played the original
19:23<wiscii>although, it was not mine
19:31<supermop_Home>https://imgur.com/HN8KzVy
19:31<supermop_Home>https://www.google.ca/maps/@21.2925542,-157.8411536,3a,75y,349.92h,90.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVn7hZhKW5djBEidlgh7Fuw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
19:33<supermop_Home>not sure if the angled brise soleil really comes through in 4 pixels
19:39<reldred>it's so pretty 😍
19:50<supermop_Home>mostly just the couple other office towers to draw now, to replace all the tropic sprites plus arctic sprites that get reused in tropic
19:52<supermop_Home>even though I actually like the ogfx capsule tower sprite a lot, i'll probably replace that too, as capsule tower is basically part of my personal identity so it wouldn't be on brand to leave it alone
19:53<supermop_Home>the little mo'ili'ili buddist temple replacing the church is my favorite sprite so far
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21:02<reldred>Then you need to actually code them as newhouses *ducks*
21:02<reldred>:P\
21:03<reldred>Speaking of which if you're partial to doing it in NFO rather than NML feel free to plunder my github. NABS is relatively well commented.
21:03<reldred>Relatively.
21:03<reldred>Houses are pretty easy in NFO
21:32<supermop_Home>they will be a house set at some point
21:32<supermop_Home>or rather similar sprites will be
21:33<supermop_Home>for a set id actually use a bunch of switches/call backs to recolor and composite bits
21:33<supermop_Home>the goal here though is to just replace the tropic base houses as I find them so jarring
21:35<supermop_Home>and making it as a static grf means I can join various multiplayer games or have tropic title games without offending my tastes
21:36<supermop_Home>wanted to do that for years, whether it be Oaxaca, Mexico City, Vietnam, Cuba, Martinique, or any other warm place I visited
21:36<wiscii>supermop_Home: you could try the "God Emperor" style ;-)
21:37<supermop_Home>i just went ahead and did it with Hawaiian houses as I was particularly inspired to start sketching out a proper Honolulu set
21:38<wiscii>or maybe Mahgrathia!
21:38<supermop_Home>basically any vacation i go on i spend at least a little time thinking about, how would i draw or model this building in particular, or capture the general essence of the vernacular architecture here
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21:39<wiscii>in pixels
21:42<wiscii>it is akin to Monet
21:42<wiscii>or Manet ?
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22:32<supermop_Home>next is this: https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/duke-kahanamoku-caroline-stella.jpg
22:33<supermop_Home>or this one: https://st2.depositphotos.com/1064950/11989/i/950/depositphotos_119897314-stock-photo-duke-kahanamoku-statue-on-waikiki.jpg
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22:39<supermop_Home>the surfboard is really going to just make this look like a statue of a penis
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22:40<supermop_Home>hmm nope
22:41<supermop_Home>t actually looks like a statue of a condom
22:44<wiscii>lol
22:44<wiscii>.!.
22:45<supermop_Home>hmm well the real one is on sand at the beach, surrounded by palms. this one is to replace the town statue, which is actually a temperate sprite
22:46<supermop_Home>so i cant really put sand or palms
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22:46<supermop_Home>or even tropic grass
22:52<supermop_Home>maybe the company owner statue will get the surfboard
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23:08<wiscii>sounds a little "double entendre" ;-)
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 14 00:00:28 2022