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#openttd IRC Logs for 2022-01-15

---Logopened Sat Jan 15 00:00:30 2022
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04:36<TrueBrain>meh; there is no varaction2 opcode to skip the next opcode or something?
04:37<TrueBrain>for if-statements I really have to make a switch, and a lot more sets? :(
04:52<_dp_>nml does some math for ifs, not sure if it's better than switch though
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05:16<andythenorth>multiplayer !
05:16<andythenorth>pikka's server
05:34<TrueBrain>lol @ newgrf specs .. so every time varaction2advanced is: signed / unsigned .. except for the last one
05:34<TrueBrain>there it is unsigned / signed
05:34<TrueBrain>because sanity is overrated :D :D :D
05:34<TrueBrain>happy I caught that in time
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>mathematically, "if (a) then b else c" can be translated into a*b+(not a)*c. but you lose the short evaluation. and the boolean value of a has to be normalized into 0/1 instead of 0/not 0
05:40<TrueBrain>I did consider it :P
05:40<TrueBrain>but the fact you evaluate both branches ..... would give weird results :D
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, then translating it into a switch is the only option
05:42<TrueBrain>but that wasn't my question ;)
05:42<TrueBrain>I was hoping there was an opcode to skip varaction2advanced entries :D
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>there was never a need for that, because a switch already does that :)
05:43<TrueBrain>it sure does; but many of those switch cases don't need to branch, and a lot of administration around them :)
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's only weird because you view it from an angle nobody else did before :)
05:46<TrueBrain>doesn't make it weird ;)
05:46<TrueBrain>NML had the same issue btw :P
05:46<TrueBrain>but .. I am just asking the questions. NewGRF has some funky things
05:46<TrueBrain>so sometimes where I think: this surely isn't possible, someone comes and says: yeah, you can do that like this
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember NML having an if operator
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>at least i never tried using one
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>there's an if block, but that's action 7/9
05:49<TrueBrain>w00p, constant comparisons work :D (so "10 11 1 2 <" resolves into 10)
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>that syntax creeps me out...
05:51<TrueBrain>poor you :)
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>how is anyone supposed to work out which operand goes in which position, if you're not using that daily?
05:52<TrueBrain>learning something new, yeah, I know, sounds horrible :P
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>that's not the point
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>i mean from a "try to understand what you wrote 5 years ago" perspective, this is barely any better than brainfuck
06:01<TrueBrain>feels a bit like you worry that minified Javascript is not maintainable :P
06:05<LordAro>or indeed machine code
06:05<LordAro>or wait, that's not nfo
06:05<LordAro>that's your rpn thing
06:05<TrueBrain>tomato tomato
06:27<TrueBrain>wow, my brain hurts from attempting to create switches out of if-statements :P
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07:50<@peter1138>varactions, because creating your own bytecode when hacking into x86 assembly is the best
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08:08<frosch123>that dosgameclub guy put some effort into creating explain-ottd-code videos... quite some unusual format
08:08<TrueBrain>peter1138: haha :D Nicely worded ;)
08:11<andythenorth>multiple GS in one map
08:12*andythenorth wonders if all GS authors could be persuaded to write them as callable modules
08:12<andythenorth>then you just choose the modules you want in settings for FIRS GS
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: are you suggesting injecting x86 code would have been the better option? :p
08:29<TrueBrain>I wonder if limiting if-in-if-in-if-.. depth to like 10 would be an issue :P
08:33*andythenorth explores GS cargo monitor
08:33<andythenorth>I want to run the same industry production calculation in both GS and grf
08:33<andythenorth>curious if they will diverge
08:34<andythenorth>so I need to trigger every 256 ticks
08:35<_dp_>probably not a good idea, GS isn't particularly consistent
08:35<andythenorth>hmm GS has no ticks concept
08:35<andythenorth>I'll have to do it on date
08:35<andythenorth>how many ticks per day?
08:36<andythenorth>@calc 256/74
08:36<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3.4594594594594597
08:36<andythenorth>meh that's not an integer
08:40<TrueBrain>right ... "store left value in register", "run compare body", "if 0 go to else-body / if 1 go to if-body", "run either if/else body", "load left value from register", "do operator with 'last computed result'" ...
08:40<TrueBrain>I cannot imagine anyone writing sane ifs in NML :P
08:41<andythenorth>stacked ternary
08:42<TrueBrain>either way, that is for an if in the right-hand-side ... now to figure out if I can do this on the left-hand-side too .. but that is more complex :P
08:43<TrueBrain>I think I need to solve this differently :)
08:45<frosch123>TrueBrain: imagine an open cargo wagon with different graphics for 60 cargo types
08:45<frosch123>that needs a long switch/if-cascade
08:48<TrueBrain>These setids are a pain in the ass :p
08:49<andythenorth>who would do that though frosch123? :P
08:52<frosch123> <- 71 cases :p
08:52<frosch123>it lacks support for the newest industry sets
08:52<TrueBrain>yeah, but switches can be solved :) If-in-if on different info is a bit harder ;)
08:53<TrueBrain>well, guess every if inside an if only needs 1 more setid .. so the limit would be ~200
08:53<frosch123>andythenorth: another problem with supporting 256 cargos. vehicle va2 cannot switch on so many cargo types
08:53<TrueBrain>that should be fine :P
08:54<andythenorth>frosch123 sharding? :P
08:55*andythenorth oof lost in GS<->grf ideas again
08:56<TrueBrain>meh, using procedures is a bit better, but still a bit clunky ... "store left value in register", "call procedure", "restore left value from register", "use 1C to do math operation with" (for a right-hand-side if-statement)
08:57<TrueBrain>this 15bit result bla is bla :P
08:57<TrueBrain>but for a left-hand-side it becomes a lot easier in that case: "call procedure", "\2rst 1C", ...
08:58<TrueBrain>can a procedure switch to another chain btw?
08:58<TrueBrain>I assume it can :P
08:59<TrueBrain>as that would mean the procedure could have the compare-body, and based on the result switch to the if or else body, returning the value of the procedure
09:02<frosch123>yes, you can recurse into other switches at procedures as you like
09:03<TrueBrain>good :)
09:04<TrueBrain>so annoying that order of operations is important in life :P
09:06<andythenorth>so do we think GS can reliably walk all the towns on the map at month end?
09:06*andythenorth has no idea about GS performance
09:06<TrueBrain>GS is limited in amount of opcodes it can execute per tick
09:07<TrueBrain>so there is no (like: zero) guarantee about anything happening in any in-game amount of time
09:07<andythenorth>but if we allow some leeway about what 'month end' means
09:07<TrueBrain>depends both on user configuration and size of the thing you are iterating
09:07<andythenorth>this isn't strict 'real-time system'
09:07<TrueBrain>so say, 10000 towns has another performance than 10 towns
09:07<TrueBrain>and a user that sets opcodes to 10 has other performance than one that uses 10000
09:08<andythenorth>I guess it's only verifiable empirically
09:15<TrueBrain>I have no clue how you want to do that if a user can change those values, but sure :P
09:16<TrueBrain>but "works for me" is a valid statement :D
09:17<frosch123>gs can change settings, so they can increase their opcode limit :p
09:17<frosch123>not sure whether the limit actually applies to GS, or only AI
09:18<TrueBrain>it is one of those settings that was more meant for: so we can tune it
09:18<TrueBrain>more than: anyone should be able to change it
09:18<TrueBrain>like pf-stuff :P
09:19<frosch123>pf-stuff is great, whenever someone complanis about pf not working like they want in their weird track layout, yuo can just sent them down the parameter rabbit hole
09:23<TrueBrain>right ... now to find a way for my code parts to talk to each other ...
09:23<TrueBrain>I didn't want things like "setid" in the RPN parser
09:23<TrueBrain>but ... yeah ... tricky to communicate internally :D
09:25<TrueBrain>but in fun news, except for if-bodies, a whole function is generated in a single chain :D
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10:07<supermop_Home>hows it going
10:08<TrueBrain>slowly getting FIRS economy working in TrueGRF :P
10:09<supermop_Home>apparently i can just reuse the same template for replacing basically all of the house sprites, except the statue
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10:30<TrueBrain>debugging NFO ... lovely .... I don't want to do this :P
10:37<+glx>it's not the easiest thing to debug
10:38<TrueBrain>I think my procedure call fails .. but how do I know .. hmm
10:48<TrueBrain>owh, lol, wrongly reusing of setids .. lovely :D
10:52<supermop_Home>4000 should be enough to cover even a very large map, but maybe not a 4096x4096...
10:53<supermop_Home>i guess i'll need to learn enough orthographic rules to write some kind of generator
10:56<TrueBrain>IT ACTUALLY WORKS! \o/ :D
10:56<TrueBrain>I have function if-statements in RPN now :)
10:57<TrueBrain>now .... to not use the stupid 15bit result, but rather the 32bit ... means inserting some more operators :D
11:04<TrueBrain>@calc 2 ** 18
11:04<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 262144
11:05<TrueBrain>now that works fine too :) w00p
11:06<TrueBrain>if-in-if works too :) With the lowest amount of setids used :)
11:08<TrueBrain>now to support functions in the cases .. lets see if that is possible :D
11:09<TrueBrain>"just works"
11:09<TrueBrain>hihi :)
11:10<TrueBrain>that means the example from Lumberjack Industries can now be done .. :D :) :D
11:10<TrueBrain>right .. next pickle ... variables .. but that is for another day :)
11:13<TrueBrain> <- 714 lines of code to parse the RPN and counting :)
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11:15<TrueBrain>I really like it only jumps to another setid if it really has to (read: branching) .. otherwise it just creates 1 single (very low) action2 chain :D
11:15<TrueBrain>it uses temporary registers to glue stuff together if it needs to :P
11:16<TrueBrain>very low = very long
11:16<TrueBrain>I need dinner
11:16<frosch123>when you can replicate firs, you can compare how many setids and registers you need with how many nml needs :p
11:16<TrueBrain>ha! That is a nice idea :)
11:18<TrueBrain>in general, might be good to compare the NML result of FIRS with my result .. just to see if nothing extremely weird happened :P
11:21<TrueBrain>but yeah, you can make 254 if-in-if statements before things go wrong .. should be fine, not? :)
11:22<TrueBrain>hmm, no, infinite if-in-if
11:22<frosch123> <- nml prints some statistics
11:23<frosch123>i do not have them for firs at the moment :)
11:23<TrueBrain>the problem happens with if-else-in-if-else-in-if-else ...
11:23<TrueBrain>NML only supports up to 127 action2 chains?
11:24<frosch123>you mean registers?
11:24<TrueBrain>sorry, typing hard
11:24<frosch123>00-7F are for the user LOAD/STORE_TEMP
11:24<frosch123>80-FF are used by nml expressions
11:24<TrueBrain>ah, it claimed a set, gotcha
11:24<TrueBrain>TrueGRF just needs a few for stack
11:25<TrueBrain>I don't realistic every expect that to exceed 10 :P
11:25<frosch123>so i guess firs-nml cheats by storing some values in user-allocated register
11:25<frosch123>but at the same time nml cannot optimise whatever the user entered there :p
11:26<TrueBrain>(in case of "1 var 1 + +", the right-hand-side is complex, and is generated as "var", "+1", "store-in-register", "1", "+register")
11:26<TrueBrain>so if people go insane in a single statement with these kind of complex rhs structures .. I need a bit of registers for that :D
11:27<TrueBrain>nor sure how NML does that, but claiming 128 seems excessive :P
11:27<frosch123>nml cannot reorder switches
11:28<frosch123>so it suffers
11:28<frosch123>with whatever the user does
11:28<TrueBrain>poor NML :P
11:28<frosch123>if user defines 100 spritesets at the start of the file, and uses them at the end of the file, that occupies 100 ids throughout the file
11:29<TrueBrain>TrueGRF does not have that issue :P I control when actual content is generated :)
11:29<frosch123>yes, truegrf is more high-level in that regard :)
11:30<TrueBrain> <- the only place so far I waste a setid because I am too lazy to fix it properly
11:30<frosch123>that's why the nml statistics print the source location where the maximum was reached
11:30<frosch123>hoping the user identfies what they did bad
11:30<TrueBrain>that is really smart, printing where it came from :)
11:30<frosch123>with pynml it's really useless though :p
11:31<TrueBrain>and poo, reading back that comment I just linked .. I need to reword that :D
11:31<frosch123>issue at line 156284 of generated nml :p
11:31<TrueBrain>haha :D
11:31<TrueBrain>NML gives absolute freedom, and as such the user has to resolve a lot of things
11:31<TrueBrain>that is the result of that choice, I guess :)
11:31<TrueBrain>TrueGRF limits the user a lot, and as such, can do a lot of things for the human :)
11:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #247: Add: Translate ternary operator into varact2 if needed
11:33<frosch123>haha, sounds like the opposite of what truegrf does :p
11:34<TrueBrain>we will see :)
11:35<TrueBrain>yeah, had to double-check, but if you do 255 "if () {} else { if () { } else { if () { } else { ...", it breaks
11:35<TrueBrain>but I am pretty sure sanity has been lost long before that :P
11:35<TrueBrain>"if () { if () { if () { if () { ..." has no limit
11:36<TrueBrain>maybe I should revert them, as it is more likely people cascade if-else, I guess (as you pointed out earlier)
11:37<TrueBrain>owh, no, I am wrong ... I already flipped them. So yeah, flip the examples, and that is what is going on
11:37<TrueBrain>I am fine with that :P
11:38<TrueBrain> <- I might have copied that from NML :P Really didn't want to do my own math :D
11:39<+glx>oh yes the crazy NFO compare
11:39<TrueBrain>as I do not allow compares to be used for getting 0 / 1 back, I might also move things to the switch statement, now I come to think of it
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13:49<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:49<@DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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14:08<andythenorth> hmm
14:08<andythenorth>if towns had a regional capital
14:08<andythenorth>electricity would be less silly
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14:49<wiscii>latest firefox update 96.0 forces google search
14:49<wiscii>because firefox really care about your privacy ......
14:50<wiscii>just as google shut down free access to their app portal
14:53<wiscii>i know about the "Trans Siberian Railway" but isn't there a Chinese route as well ?
14:54<wiscii>China to Europe ?
14:54<wiscii>ah, Sino-Euro ..
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14:57<wiscii>ah-so , the end-to-end Sino-Euro trip is around 15~18 days, ~35 days there and back - Around 10 trips per year
14:58<wiscii>My most profitable goods line makes 1million per delivery and makes 4 deliveries per year
15:14<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe updated pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link
15:17<TrueBrain>frosch123: are there things that would break if I make all variables signed? :P
15:18<TrueBrain>tracking signed/unsigned is such a nag
15:21<frosch123>not sure, signedness is so weird when multiple fields are bitstuffed into one 32bit or 15bit thing
15:22<frosch123>so when you extract 3 bits from some larger variable, you certainly do not want to sign-extend those
15:23<TrueBrain>I went the NML route, and TrueGRF doesn't show the bitstuffed fields itself
15:23<TrueBrain>for example, it says "x" and "y", which are in a single variable
15:23<TrueBrain>so I kinda take that away, I think ..
15:23<TrueBrain>unless there are callback return values which need them stuffed again
15:23<frosch123>nml does that for variables, but not for cb results
15:23<frosch123>there are plenty of cb results with "stringid | flag1 | flag2"
15:24<frosch123>where stringid is some 12bit value
15:24<frosch123>(yeah, 12 :p)
15:24<TrueBrain>I already did "result:inputs[]", to not bother users with this stuff .. guess I might as well for those callback results
15:24<TrueBrain>so given that, what else breaks if it is signed only ..
15:25<TrueBrain>hard to see :D
15:25<frosch123>most individual things do not exceed 31 bits, though there are "32 random bits" thingies sometimes
15:26<frosch123>but then you usually also pick some of them, instead of all
15:26<TrueBrain>it would simplify it a lot if just everything is signed, and kinda works how you expect
15:26<TrueBrain>maybe I should just try it signed first, and see if we run into something
15:26<TrueBrain>can always add a "unsigned" keyword :P
15:35<+glx>ok I wasn't expecting nml#247 CI to fail this way
15:36<TrueBrain>how did it fail?
15:36<TrueBrain>it now sounds like it did boom :P
15:37<+glx>python 3.5 and 3.6 not available on macos
15:37<TrueBrain>I wouldn't have seen that coming either :D
15:41<+glx> <-- oh I should take care of this one too
15:42<+glx> <-- I guess this one just hit me actually
15:43<+glx>workflow ran macos-11 indeed
15:43<+glx>and this image just doesn't have 3.5 nor 3.6
15:57<TrueBrain>guess it is time to burn 3.5 with fire :P
16:00<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #248: Update: [Actions] python versions for regression test
16:01<+glx>I need to try to remember why nml workflows are forced to windows-2016, because this image will disappear in march
16:06<wiscii>github explicitly told everybody to use windows-latest
16:06<+glx>yes we know, that's why I need to remember why it's not the case
16:07<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #248: Update: [Actions] python versions for regression test
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16:22<_dp_>wow, first desync since 12.0
16:23<LordAro>oh no
16:26<Gustavo6046>what happened?
16:33<wiscii>sounds like flying foo hit spinning bah! :)
16:36<TrueBrain>w00p, persistent registers work \o/ :D
16:36<TrueBrain>code needs a bit of a cleanup :D
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16:40<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #248: Update: [Actions] python versions for regression test
16:42<+glx>hmm and there's a new error reported by codeQL
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16:52<+glx> <-- regex are fun, but I hate this one
16:57<Gustavo6046>what the heck is that regex
16:58<+glx> <-- it should match that
16:58<Gustavo6046>exponential backtracking... really? I don't see any lookbehinds
16:59<+glx>not explicitely, but python engine seems to do it
17:01<Gustavo6046>I mean, the Python re engine is dumb
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17:20<_dp_>is there a way to know what's the latest netsave.sav now?
17:21<_dp_>want to ask player to send it but there are multiple now
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17:33<+glx>file date probably
17:36<_dp_>I'm just gonna give up, he's not responding anymore
17:37<_dp_>judging by how slow and awful he plays I blame android :p
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17:40<wiscii>it's saturday night and your client is on android, probably has a girlfriend too xP
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20:18<Gustavo6046>still waiting for openttd: socialism edition
20:31<wiscii>with labor laws
20:34<Gustavo6046>and industries that get faster and can expand if you supply them with more passengers
20:34<Gustavo6046>what if the presence of industries and the local movement of goods influences what other industries can randomly prop up in an area?
20:34<Gustavo6046>so if there's a fishing spot, and food is moved around nearby (demand), it's possible for ports (that convert fish into food) to appear
20:36<wiscii>question, do you then use a very flat setting because you want to build an efficient infra-structure ?
20:38<wiscii>there is the other point, that this is a computer game
20:39<wiscii>computer games, generally, do not co-operate, deliberately .. ;-)
20:40<wiscii>i was wondering if sports stadiums in towns could randomly generate excess passengers
20:40<wiscii>home game, type thing ..
20:41<wiscii>but the ottd passenger model does not seem to allow for such
20:43<wiscii>Gustavo6046: i have a save game that i can share which generally does away with your idea of localised industry effects
20:44<wiscii>the idea of the game is to ship things long distances
20:44<wiscii>= profit
20:44<wiscii>do you want to see ?
20:46<wiscii>lots of imagination
20:48<wiscii>sure, hold on
20:52<wiscii>sorry .. glitches
20:53<wiscii>there you go, i am listed as 'tct' on
20:53<wiscii>i'll even give a guided tour ;-)
20:54<wiscii>the password is my username here
20:59<wiscii>i also have month one
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22:32<@DorpsGek>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #9789: Feature: Technology progresses independently of game time
22:47<supermop_Home>whats the max pixel height of a sprite?
22:47<reldred>@supermop_Home fixed the electric RV switch
22:47<reldred>I tagged you in the release thread with a fresh nml
22:48<supermop_Home>i recall it being like 216-ish
22:48<reldred>max height seems to be a bit subjective though, when I re-coded Luxtram's skyscrapers I managed to fix most of the flickering.
22:48<supermop_Home>but maybe it's less? i really want just about 124-28 to get the mast on this:
22:49<reldred>but I think my trick only works for multi-tile buildings because I overlaid the building on top of itself so if one sprite is flickering the other isn't, etc.
22:49<reldred>Ooooh shiny
22:49<supermop_Home>(mine's only 1x1 and only 12 stories tall)
22:50<supermop_Home>more of a chibi version
22:50<supermop_Home>to fit the scale of my other HNL buildings
22:50<reldred>god they're gorgeous 😍
22:50<supermop_Home>and to replace the 70s arctic/tropic skyscraper
22:52<supermop_Home>that one is 117 tall
22:52<supermop_Home>mirror glass is hard to draw with the palette while keeping Foster-ish style
22:53<reldred>Yup. I think that's what prompted fridaemon to bust out of the palette with his
22:54<supermop_Home>generally I've just been not drawing much mirror glass anyway. more in keeping with my Miesian/brutalist/metabolist nature anyway
22:54<reldred>Oh yeah btw supermop_Home, it was these two that have their purchase window graphics smooshed up:
22:55<supermop_Home>but with current 80s/90s postmodernist nostalgia/revisionism, and the fact that the base set has a bunch of 70s-90s towers, i kind of have to glaze at least a few of these
22:56<supermop_Home>reldred huh it doesn't look smooshed for me in game?
22:56<reldred>yeah in game its fine
22:56<reldred>it's just the purchase window for me
22:56<supermop_Home>what year is that
22:57<supermop_Home>the passenger compartment of the old buses is composited on, so that it can change with era
22:57<supermop_Home>so maybe its just one era that's misaligned
22:58<reldred>I'm just happy I fixed the parameter issue
22:58<supermop_Home>i wanted to do this for the 70s tower, but its just a tad of a stretch for 1974:
22:59<reldred>I actually LOVE your electrics and the hybrids, I just hate the current UI for OpenTTD road menu, etc. becoming a jumbled mess that scrolls off the screen 😿
22:59<supermop_Home>just like with mirror glass, bronze tint glass cant really be shown in the palette
22:59<supermop_Home>which is a big loss for 80s postmodern buildings
23:00<supermop_Home>how many road types are you using?
23:00<supermop_Home>i can't be bothered with more than about 6
23:00<reldred>I'm using U&RATT2 which, well, yes.
23:00<reldred>there are road types
23:01<reldred>about a few
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23:04<supermop_Home>ok at least one building in the base set is 130 px
23:04<supermop_Home>so i feel safe at 128
23:18<supermop_Home>i always wonder if its worth doing things like hiding little winks and nods in vehicle names
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23:33<Gustavo6046>wiscii, oh
23:33<Gustavo6046>I thought you were going to upload a savefile
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23:56<wiscii>Gustavo6046: i'm not oiye via yet
23:58<Gustavo6046>not what?
23:59<Gustavo6046>anyway, now I can check the server
23:59<Gustavo6046>I couldn't earlier
---Logclosed Sun Jan 16 00:00:31 2022