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#uml IRC Logs for 2007-10-05

---Logopened Fri Oct 05 00:00:44 2007
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09:32<jdike-#uml->>Hi guys
09:33<Magotari-#uml->>Hello, jdike.
09:34<Magotari-#uml->>Nothing new today, for now anyway. Working on the lowmem thing.
09:34<jdike-#uml->>hehe
09:34[~]jdike #uml was worried about what was waiting#uml-> was worried about what was waiting
09:35<jdike-#uml->>my UML survived 6 hrs of crashme yesterday
09:35<Magotari-#uml->>Guess it is my toolchain after all then.
09:35<jdike-#uml->>not necessarily
09:35<Magotari-#uml->>Wish we had a third party to confirm or not.
09:36<Magotari-#uml->>If you want the image I use, I can host it now... Doubt it would change anything though.
09:37<jdike-#uml->>I'm building with your config
09:37<Magotari-#uml->>Remember the memsplit though.
09:37<jdike-#uml->>that's in the config
09:37<Magotari-#uml->>I always have strange settings, and people nearly never can use anything of mine unmodified.
09:38<jdike-#uml->>./linux --showconfig > ../linux-2.6.22/magotori/.config
09:38<jdike-#uml->>./linux is your image from yesterday
09:38<Magotari-#uml->>Yup.
09:38<Magotari-#uml->>Magotori?
09:38<jdike-#uml->>misspelled
09:38<jdike-#uml->>sorry
09:38<Magotari-#uml->>Oh. Just wondered.
09:39<Magotari-#uml->>Back to lowmem thing for now. This is my first time using C, so expect it to take forever. I am at the reading and understanding your code phase.
09:39<Magotari-#uml->>I do have a few ideas, but nothing clear yet.
09:40<Magotari-#uml->>I will be watching IRC, if you have any questions or patches to test.
09:40<jdike-#uml->>OK
09:49<dgraves-#uml->>as opposed to me, who was planning on causing trouble for jdike at some point... :)
09:50<jdike-#uml->>Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
09:50<jdike-#uml->>And by opposing, end them.
09:53<dgraves-#uml->>::LOL::
09:54<dgraves-#uml->>To die... To sleep!
09:55<jdike-#uml->>yeah
09:55<jdike-#uml->>some choice
10:15<dgraves-#uml->>i like the sleeping part of it.. :)
10:17<jdike-#uml->>but that seems to be part of the dying option, which lessens the attraction
10:17<dgraves-#uml->>hmm... true.
10:17<dgraves-#uml->>maybe there's an instares?
10:18<jdike-#uml->>instares?
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10:38<dgraves-#uml->>insta-rez.
10:38<dgraves-#uml->>like, an alarm clock or soemthing.
10:38<jdike-#uml->>Ah
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12:09<Magotari-#uml->>jdike: I got the thing to boot with 7M. Now, I am quite sure that there is a mistake somewhere in my reasoning, but I just wanted to say that I am making progress.
12:36<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah, the SIGSEGV proves that I am in fact doing something wrong. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes dies. When it works it has plenty of memory, about 700K. *sigh*
12:36<Magotari-#uml->>This is with 6M.
12:37<the_hydra-#uml->>what's your problem now?
12:38<Magotari-#uml->>Well...
12:38<Magotari-#uml->>I tried to boot UML with 7M of ram.
12:39<Magotari-#uml->>It dies, trying to allocate -700K.
12:39<Magotari-#uml->>So, I am trying to make it boot.
12:39<Magotari-#uml->>So far I have some limited success.
12:39<Magotari-#uml->>Just for fun, you know?
12:39<Magotari-#uml->>Better than flooding the channel with bug reports.
12:40<the_hydra-#uml->>ok
12:40<Magotari-#uml->>My first time using C too. Quite an experience, but I like it.
12:41<the_hydra-#uml->>that 700K, who is doing the allocation? the UML kernel itself? or the program running inside it?
12:41<Magotari-#uml->>The kernel. I don't even get to the userspace. Must be a bug of some kind. Then again, I see bugs everywhere.
12:42<the_hydra-#uml->>7M hmmm
12:42<Magotari-#uml->>With my fixes it works for 6M and 7M, but sometimes dies. I made the code kick in only when memory is short, so the rest of UML in not impacted.
12:43<Magotari-#uml->>And really, at four lines, not much code it is. I am progressing at a modest rate of two lines per day.
12:43<the_hydra-#uml->>after deflated, kernel image use around 3-4 MB of RAM...maybe more
12:44<the_hydra-#uml->>that leaves you..let's say 3-4MB of simulated RAM
12:44<Magotari-#uml->>Maybe, but when it does not SEGV it has plenty left, about 700K.
12:44<the_hydra-#uml->>user space etc etc...maybe it easily touch 7M
12:44<Magotari-#uml->>And I make small kernels, usually.
12:44<Magotari-#uml->>The crash happens only sometimes. If I does not go down, it works just fine.
12:45<Magotari-#uml->>When it crashes it runs out of memory while trying to dup_task_struct. Then oom happens. Then no process killable, so panic.
12:45<the_hydra-#uml->>how do you know 700K is left?
12:45<Magotari-#uml->>free
12:45<the_hydra-#uml->>from inside the UML?
12:45<Magotari-#uml->>Yup.
12:47[~]dgraves #uml loves oommmmmmmm...........#uml-> loves oommmmmmmm...........
12:48<dgraves-#uml->>morning, the_hydra!
12:48<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah, I love it too.
12:48<Magotari-#uml->>Grrr.
12:48<the_hydra-#uml->>dgraves: hello ALlan
12:50<dgraves-#uml->>i've got 64 bit seg faults! :)
12:50<dgraves-#uml->>ain't it grand?
12:52<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: did you get any backtrace?
12:53<the_hydra-#uml->>dgraves: hooray!
12:53<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah, a 20-frame one. I said the most interesting bits already.
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12:53<Magotari-#uml->>dup_tast_struct -> oom -> messy death.
12:54<the_hydra-#uml->>end up while calling dup_task_struct?
12:54<Magotari-#uml->>?
12:54<the_hydra-#uml->>when you said "don't even reach userspace" you mean it's still at boot stage but not before calling init process?
12:55<Magotari-#uml->>Yup. I don't get to init.
12:55<Magotari-#uml->>Dies in some kthread.
12:55<the_hydra-#uml->>hmmm?
12:55<Magotari-#uml->>Maybe I should just post the thing. Sec.
12:57<Magotari-#uml->>http://rafb.net/p/hvnVeu76.html
12:57<the_hydra-#uml->>hm, page tables allocation, GDT, IDT, etc etc...
12:57<jdike-#uml->>WTF
12:57<jdike-#uml->>#9 0x0808e1b7 in __get_free_pages (gfp_mask=208, order=6) at include/linux/gfp.h:188
12:58<jdike-#uml->>why is it trying an order 6 allocation?
12:58<Magotari-#uml->>Hey, my code is shit, so I probably broke something.
12:58<the_hydra-#uml->>hmm?
12:58<jdike-#uml->>that's 64 pages == 256K
12:58<the_hydra-#uml->>hehehheheh
12:58<the_hydra-#uml->>no wonder :)
12:58<Magotari-#uml->>Erm, I am in the dark.
12:59<Magotari-#uml->>Can someone explain? Finding bugs is the only thing I am really good at.
12:59<the_hydra-#uml->>well, getting 256K continous page is hard :)
12:59<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: CMIIW
12:59<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: IMHO that triggers OOM AFAIK
13:00<Magotari-#uml->>the_hydra: Well, with 6M especially so.
13:00<jdike-#uml->>you should have
13:00<jdike-#uml->>CONFIG_KERNEL_STACK_ORDER=0
13:00<the_hydra-#uml->>??
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13:00<jdike-#uml->>and the image you sent yesterday does
13:01<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: mind to tell what's that config mean?
13:01<the_hydra-#uml->>(first time I read that)
13:01<jdike-#uml->>what order allocation to use for kernel stacks
13:01<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike:oopsss
13:01<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: and Magotari use 6?
13:01<Magotari-#uml->>Erm, guys... I broke the thing. Don't try to debug it as if it were just your code. I am quite sure I am at fault.
13:01<jdike-#uml->>apparently
13:01<the_hydra-#uml->>my oh my :)
13:01<Magotari-#uml->>No, I have set it to 0. But let me doublecheck.
13:02<jdike-#uml->>you would probably know if you changed it
13:03<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: I was almost puzzle why 7M could choke UML in boot stage
13:03<the_hydra-#uml->>*d*
13:03<Magotari-#uml->>It is zero.
13:03<jdike-#uml->>wait
13:03<jdike-#uml->>#7 0x0808ccc3 in out_of_memory (zonelist=0x81dc6e0, gfp_mask=208, order=0) at mm/oom_kill.c:510
13:03<jdike-#uml->>#8 0x0808e108 in __alloc_pages (gfp_mask=208, order=0, zonelist=0x81dc6e0) at mm/page_alloc.c:1711
13:03<jdike-#uml->>order is 0
13:04<jdike-#uml->>something reused the other order and turned it into 6
13:05<jdike-#uml->>so the thing really is just out of memory
13:05<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah. My breakage.
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13:07<jdike-#uml->>be interesting to see where it all went
13:07<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: what codes exactly did you add :)
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13:10<Magotari-#uml->>Erm... Erm... Yeah. Well, erm... I... Kinda... reduced the reserved memory. Yeah. Please don't kill me. I am just a newbie who is just starting with C and the kernel. Really, I should go and learn pascal... :/
13:10<jdike-#uml->>hehe
13:11<the_hydra-#uml->>reduced reserved memory...ok I see
13:11<the_hydra-#uml->>how much do you reduce anyway?
13:11<jdike-#uml->>reserved is rounded up to 4M because there is some usage of malloc when kmalloc can't be used
13:12<jdike-#uml->>so there needs to be a bit of memory for libc malloc to hand out
13:12<jdike-#uml->>kernel memory starts after that
13:12<Magotari-#uml->>jdike: I am on the phone. brb
13:12<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: you mean the malloc header?
13:12<jdike-#uml->>no
13:12<jdike-#uml->>malloc in general
13:13<the_hydra-#uml->>oh, the malloc free/used list and so on?
13:13<jdike-#uml->>yup
13:13<the_hydra-#uml->>ehm ok
13:13<jdike-#uml->>cutting that down shouldn't really hurt anything
13:13<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: sometimes I forgot that UML uses user space libs :)
13:13<Magotari-#uml->>I cut down 2M for cases under 8M.
13:14<jdike-#uml->>shouldn't matter
13:14<Magotari-#uml->>Well, clearly it does.
13:15<Magotari-#uml->>I will post my changes, once I fix them up so they don't look like written by a madman.
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13:23<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: your ultimate goal is to enlarge free memory?
13:23<Magotari-#uml->>the_hydra: No.
13:23<jdike-#uml->>he wants to boot in under 8M
13:23<Magotari-#uml->>Yes.
13:24<Magotari-#uml->>Mostly to prove it can be done.
13:24<the_hydra-#uml->>ok, got it
13:24<Magotari-#uml->>Once ago I did the same to the Linux boot process. Wrote my own init, login... in hla. Result: >1s, and full functionality.
13:24<Magotari-#uml->>Why? To prove that it can be done.
13:24<jdike-#uml->>hehe
13:25<Magotari-#uml->>Erm, I mean result < 1s.
13:26<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: i see
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13:27<the_hydra-#uml->>below 1 sec? impressive...what procedures did you tweak?
13:27<Magotari-#uml->>Well. Long story. First a disclaimer. While I am sure I could repeat it, I have no proof right now, as I deleted everything in a bout of bad mood.
13:27<Magotari-#uml->>I wrote my own init, to double as long.
13:27<the_hydra-#uml->>ok
13:28<Magotari-#uml->>*as login.
13:28<the_hydra-#uml->>hmm
13:28<Magotari-#uml->>Static linking saved some more time.
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13:28<Magotari-#uml->>The kernel was minimalistic, some bits load quite long.
13:29<Magotari-#uml->>I commented out the slow bits which could not be pushed to modules.
13:29<Magotari-#uml->>Everything as modules. My init after displaying the login prompt would run a shell script. The shell script would start loading the modules, in parallel.
13:30<the_hydra-#uml->>sounds like init-ng
13:30<Magotari-#uml->>It would also launch some other logins, to go to other terminals.
13:31<Magotari-#uml->>The system was fully loaded in 10s, but before the user logs in and types in "startx" the modules needed for X were already in.
13:31<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: your idea sounds need to be brought back into "mainline"
13:31<Magotari-#uml->>Shutting down was quite a bit more involved, as my init was really dumb. I don't remember how I did it, but it worked somehow too.
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13:32<Magotari-#uml->>Nah, it was absolutely non portable.
13:32<the_hydra-#uml->>meaning...you could join initng projects
13:32<Magotari-#uml->>Module dependancy resolution was manual. Coded in by me, by hand.
13:32<the_hydra-#uml->>hmm :)
13:32<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah, in bash.
13:33<Magotari-#uml->>Oh, sorry. I mean ash. Bash loaded too slowly.
13:33<Magotari-#uml->>I saved a second right there.
13:33<the_hydra-#uml->>hehhehe
13:33<the_hydra-#uml->>ok :)
13:33<the_hydra-#uml->>how about using busybox?
13:33<Magotari-#uml->>Slower than ash.
13:33<the_hydra-#uml->>hrrm ok
13:34<Magotari-#uml->>Now, back to rewriting my "patch". *sigh*
13:34<Magotari-#uml->>I wish I knew C better already. But alas.
13:34<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: how low you plan to go? 6M? 7M?
13:34<Magotari-#uml->>4.
13:35<the_hydra-#uml->>4....hmm
13:35<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah. I will need a small kernel and nearly no userspace.
13:35<the_hydra-#uml->>and probably UML linked to more efficient allocator
13:36<the_hydra-#uml->>i.e not the one in glibc
13:36<jdike-#uml->>Magotari, you know about the linux-tiny patches?
13:36<Magotari-#uml->>I heard bits about them. I read the lkml often.
13:37<Magotari-#uml->>Maybe. But right now as long as UML is segfaulting there is no need to try anything more. I want to find my mistake and fix it.
13:37<Magotari-#uml->>If something works sometimes, it can work always.
13:37<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: keep your ideas floating.... I could probably "borrow" it for local hacking competition
13:38<Magotari-#uml->>the_hydra: The init thing? Or the UML thing?
13:38<the_hydra-#uml->>Magotari: the "accelerating and compacting" things
13:38<Magotari-#uml->>Ah yes.
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13:38<Magotari-#uml->>Two of my passions, true.
13:39<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: i hate when hacker is associated with just "breaking in"
13:39<jdike-#uml->>yeah
13:39<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: unfortunately....well....
13:39<jdike-#uml->>the world is an imperfect place
13:40<the_hydra-#uml->>jdike: a wise words :)
13:40<Magotari-#uml->>Very much imperfect.
13:41[~]the_hydra #uml should be impressed with the way DOS 3.3 fits inside 640K of RAM!#uml-> should be impressed with the way DOS 3.3 fits inside 640K of RAM!
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13:59<Magotari-#uml->>jdike: UML does not build if you disable swap.
13:59<jdike-#uml->>hmm
14:05<jdike-#uml->>Oh
14:05<jdike-#uml->>we've seen that before
14:05<jdike-#uml->>the fix is non-obvious
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14:09<Magotari-#uml->>Nor does it work with SLOB.
14:11<jdike-#uml->>different failure?
14:12<Magotari-#uml->>Yeah.
14:12<Magotari-#uml->>At the very end of the build, LD returned status...
14:13<jdike-#uml->>the compilation failure, not the link failure
14:14<the_hydra-#uml->>have fun on hacking ...
14:14<the_hydra-#uml->>gtg
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14:15<Magotari-#uml->>That is the only thing that fails.
14:15<Magotari-#uml->>The link. There are no new warnings or errors during the build.
14:17<jdike-#uml->>oh
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15:04<Magotari-#uml->>First a disclaimer. I am not doing this to ruin your life, to hold back your work or out of any malicious intent. I don't have anything better to do than to play around with UML all day. If you ever get fed up with my reports, just tell me and you won't hear another one ever again.
15:05<Magotari-#uml->>That being said...
15:05<Magotari-#uml->>jdike: UML does not compile when you select a virtual network device but don't include TCP/IP networking.
15:06<Magotari-#uml->>Selecting just "Virtual network devices" is enough.
15:32<jdike-#uml->>looks like we need a dependency there
15:32<Magotari-#uml->>Hey, maybe I can do that.
15:33<Magotari-#uml->>Then again, so far what I have done is less than stellar.
15:33<jdike-#uml->>except, you can have networking without TCP/IP
15:33<Magotari-#uml->>Really?
15:33<jdike-#uml->>DHCP, decnet, appletalk, etc
15:33<Magotari-#uml->>ppp and slip?
15:33<jdike-#uml->>yep
15:33<Magotari-#uml->>Right, those.
15:33<jdike-#uml->>all non-TCP
15:33<jdike-#uml->>rather, non-IP
15:33<Magotari-#uml->>Then just a dependancy won't help.
15:34<Magotari-#uml->>I have not enabled any devices, just selected that I want a virtual device.
15:34<jdike-#uml->>or a dependency someplace else
15:34<Magotari-#uml->>Right now as things stand there won't be any networking without TCP/IP.
15:35<jdike-#uml->>what did you disable, exactly/
15:35<jdike-#uml->>?
15:35<Magotari-#uml->>TCP/IP networking.
15:35<jdike-#uml->>OK
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15:47<jdike-#uml->>Oh
15:47<jdike-#uml->>that's easy
15:50<Magotari-#uml->>?
15:52<jdike-#uml->>http://rafb.net/p/Fi0wKz42.txt
15:53<jdike-#uml->>not as clean as it should be, but it works
16:08<Magotari-#uml->>Ok, I will test it right away.
16:09<Magotari-#uml->>Built just fine.
16:10<jdike-#uml->>yup
16:10<jdike-#uml->>I didn't play with it, but you should be able to DHCP it
16:10<jdike-#uml->>but not much else
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16:19<Magotari-#uml->>It boots, and that is good enough.
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16:51<newbie-#uml->>/server irc.mit.edu
16:58<dgraves-#uml->>newbie: try a different window. :)
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 06 00:00:25 2007